General > General Technical Chat
I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.
<< < (44/145) > >>
technix:

--- Quote from: magic on May 27, 2019, 03:35:06 pm ---Western democracy is completely retarded, voters have no clue what's going on in the world and get distracted by bullshit nonissues, politicians only look forward to the next election and the only agents with any long term strategy are companies, think tanks, lobbying groups, millionaires and secret services, all of which obviously operate in confidentiality and don't coordinate with each other.

--- End quote ---
In order for those megacorporations, think tanks, lobbying groups, millionaires and secret services to assert their power, they need to keep the general citizen distracted, uneducated and clueless. Now we have a Catch-22 to solve.


--- Quote from: magic on May 27, 2019, 03:35:06 pm ---That Western countries would build dependence on communist regimes is laughable.

--- End quote ---
Is China communist at its core after 1980 though? From what I see while the slogan of socialism and communism is still recited, the actual governing system is largely a capitalist system with a nonpartisan, center-right government that can largely keep its words, along with a functioning social safety net that guarantees everyone a roof over their heads and freedom from hunger.


--- Quote from: magic on May 27, 2019, 03:35:06 pm ---Communism in China killed more people in time of peace than the civil war and world war 2 combined. Probably set their industry back a few decades too because why not. Same happened in Eastern Europe, Cambodia and likely everywhere communism was attempted. Communists should be nuked from the orbit wherever they appear.

--- End quote ---
That is why communism was abandoned in a top-down fashion with the exception of the name, when people managed to cool down from the political frenzy and the honchos had some cold hard thinking. You don't usually get revolutionary changes if it happened top-down. In Poland you had Solidarity that shook the system, so while it did pan out top-down it is still a bottom-up process, just peacefully.

As of your comment immediately following this line, I am legally barred from quoting it under the Anti-Secession Law of China, a law that includes a pre-authorization of military action should Taiwan perform any of the enumerated actions. Also it is factually false if you go through the data.


--- Quote from: magic on May 27, 2019, 03:35:06 pm ---This is democracy in action.
As is well known, democracy is a system where two men and one woman strangled on a desert island can hold a legally binding vote over legalization of rape.
Or a system where whoever gets 60% seats in the parliament enjoys total power for four years and pushes reforms rejected by 40% of society not expecting the balance to flip later.

--- End quote ---
That means you have a fracture in your society, which will require talks sooner or later, or see the society fall apart, either into separate entities, or worse into a civil war.


--- Quote from: Marco on May 27, 2019, 05:07:32 pm ---None of those are a security threat to the US.

--- End quote ---
China have never thought of threatening the US until US decided to treat China as a threat and start stirring up s**t in western Pacific. Don't step on the dragon's tail and you don't get flames blown at your face.


--- Quote from: Marco on May 27, 2019, 05:07:32 pm ---The amount of technology theft by China is also on a whole different level AFAICS.

--- End quote ---
Is it theft, or did it Chinese companies buy them using their hard earned cash and/or provided the specified service you required? Once again you signed the deal that sold the technology with a hot head back then, and you regret it by now. Also if you are really that concerned you should have applied for patents/registered the copyright in China along with other places. SIPO works and thanks to recent policies it is cheap and available online. All you need is an Internet connection and a Chinese IP lawyer.


--- Quote from: BravoV on May 27, 2019, 06:10:25 pm ---The wet dream of, utilizing the IP as a new form of colonization, like saying to others ... you lowly creature, work hard, build & manufacture this commodity, but pay me the IP cost .. forever while I'm enjoying my life and filthy rich forever ... this is not realistic, and sustainable, especially across countries for long term.

--- End quote ---
That kind of use of IP is abuse. Even some Americans can not sit well with that.


--- Quote from: BravoV on May 27, 2019, 07:01:34 pm ---Authoritarian has good side is which is persistency, as IF (a big "IF" I know) that the leader has a sincere,good and noble vision for the country's interest in long term, this it self will beat the hell out so called pure "democracy", as this democracy makes it very hard to maintain the country's direction, as the whole realm in the country is constantly dragged into the fight of the change at every election period, or good example referendum like Brexit which is divided the whole country into pieces.

--- End quote ---
China has a 2 millennia long history of continuous autocratic rule, during which a well established technocracy/meritocracy system is formed specifically to select the leaders that has a sincere, good and noble vision for oneself, the community, the country and the world (修身,齐家,治国,平天下) and we invented standardized tests as a measurement of the candidates, assuming the tests are not corrupt. This process is generally still upheld even to this day although a modernized test is used, as a way of selecting all public servants.
apis:

--- Quote from: BravoV on May 27, 2019, 07:01:34 pm ---Authoritarian has good side is which is persistency, as IF (a big "IF" I know) that the leader has a sincere,good and noble vision for the country's interest in long term, this it self will beat the hell out so called pure "democracy", as this democracy makes it very hard to maintain the country's direction, as the whole realm in the country is constantly dragged into the fight of the change at every election period, or good example referendum like Brexit which is divided the whole country into pieces.

Its like fighting to tame a voltage regulation (electronics speaks) that has heavy fluctuations, one or two cycles of the control loop sometimes is not enough, really believe some of you probably agree on me using this analogy.

At the end, it is the "stable and expected" voltage regulation that matter, for long term.

--- End quote ---
Ah, the good old philosopher king (or more recently enlightened absolutism) idea, it's not new and history shows it's wishful thinking.

Even remotely benevolent dictators are few and far between. Even if you get lucky and have a good leader you will have to replace him/her eventually because people change, get sick and die. So you have the problem with electing a new leader anyway (the oldest son?  ::) :palm:), odds are you won't get lucky the next time.

It's not like authoritarian dictatorship is a new idea, it used to be the norm here (like everywhere). It was those old authoritarian leaders that thought colonialism was a good idea, and the world wars too for that matter. Democracy (re)emerged after centuries of struggle and disaster after disaster.

In democracy the people get to decide whether to keep or replace the "dictator" at regular intervals. (Maybe 4 years is too often though.) This gives the people some protection from the bad leaders. Take the US for example, Trump can be president for at most 8 years then he has to go, so the amount of damage he can do to the country (and the world) is limited, the people will even have the chance to replace him already next year. There are also other systems in a democracy that limits the damage one bad person can do (i.e. separation of powers). All this is actually quite complicated and a science in itself.

If you like the voltage regulator analogy then dictatorship is like voltage regulation without feedback, while democracy is voltage regulation with negative feedback (elections) and other checks and balances. As an engineer I'm sure you realise which is most stable.


--- Quote from: technix on May 27, 2019, 07:26:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: magic on May 27, 2019, 03:35:06 pm ---That Western countries would build dependence on communist regimes is laughable.

--- End quote ---
Is China communist at its core after 1980 though? From what I see while the slogan of socialism and communism is still recited, the actual governing system is largely a capitalist system with a nonpartisan, center-right government that can largely keep its words, along with a functioning social safety net that guarantees everyone a roof over their heads and freedom from hunger.

--- End quote ---
"Four legs good, two legs better."


--- Quote from: technix on May 27, 2019, 07:26:06 pm ---China has a 2 millennia long history of continuous autocratic rule, during which a well established technocracy/meritocracy system is formed specifically to select the leaders that has a sincere, good and noble vision for oneself, the community, the country and the world (修身,齐家,治国,平天下) and we invented standardized tests as a measurement of the candidates, assuming the tests are not corrupt. This process is generally still upheld even to this day although a modernized test is used, as a way of selecting all public servants.

--- End quote ---
:bullshit:
China had emperors and aristocracy that waged war and oppressed the people just like Europe.
technix:

--- Quote from: apis on May 27, 2019, 07:54:39 pm ---Ah, the good old philosopher king (or more recently enlightened absolutism) idea, it's not new and history shows it's wishful thinking.

--- End quote ---
China never really had a democracy and it is not really in the culture to be honest, and in the millennia Chinese people installed a technocracy/meritocracy system to approach the philosopher king scenario. Maybe instead of panning on each other, we should learn from each other somehow, for example merging the democratic process of selecting a leader using a vote with the technocratic/meritocratic process of selecting the candidates using standardized tests and profession matching.


--- Quote from: apis on May 27, 2019, 07:54:39 pm ---"Four legs good, two legs better."

--- End quote ---
Do you mind elaborate on it?


--- Quote from: apis on May 27, 2019, 07:54:39 pm ---:bullshit:
China had emperors and aristocracy that waged war and oppressed the people just like Europe.

--- End quote ---
And they are usually overthrown in civil unrests pretty swiftly. Chinese history has a lot of episodes of civil riots when aristocracy went bad.

Here is a thing: historically Chinese people really, REALLY don't want to move far - 父母在不远游, because that is where the farmlands are and without those you are starving. So if the aristocracy went bad the choice is usually revolt and maybe live through it or leave and starve to a certain death. This is also why Chinese isn't that big on freedom of movement as it is not in the culture.

Chinese have been farming since prehistoric times, and the culture is continuous since, so there are a lot of really ancient stull stuff remained in the culture. An example will be that quote from above, it is from Analects which dates back to 5th century BCE, and it is taught right now in 21st century Chinese high schools - in fact it is required for a high school student to be able to understand almost any book written since ~8th century BCE in China, and there is a list of poems and texts written during 5th century BCE and 18th century CE students must memorize.
soldar:

--- Quote from: technix on May 27, 2019, 08:09:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: apis on May 27, 2019, 07:54:39 pm ---"Four legs good, two legs better."

--- End quote ---
Do you mind elaborate on it?

--- End quote ---
It is a reference to Orwell's Animal Farm. You would need to have read Animal Farm to get the meaning.


I am always amused by how strongly people will defend that western-style democracy is the only valid form of government. It is a fanaticism like few others. This in spite that western style democracy has only worked well in countries that have a culture of... western-style democracy!

And America, which never stops preaching western style democracy has been busy for decades overthrowing popularly elected governments and installing dictatorships in their place. And nobody seems to even recognize the contradiction.

I concede Americans the privilege of governing as they see fit and I would concede the same to every other nation.

The notion that we know better than them is just imperialism plain and simple. Just leave people alone. And if you really feel the need to fix things you can start by fixing your own country because, it does not matter what country it is, there is much that needs fixing.
Mr. Scram:

--- Quote from: soldar on May 27, 2019, 09:17:17 pm ---It is a reference to Orwell's Animal Farm. You would need to have read Animal Farm to get the meaning.


I am always amused by how strongly people will defend that western-style democracy is the only valid form of government. It is a fanaticism like few others. This in spite that western style democracy has only worked well in countries that have a culture of... western-style democracy!

And America, which never stops preaching western style democracy has been busy for decades overthrowing popularly elected governments and installing dictatorships in their place. And nobody seems to even recognize the contradiction.

I concede Americans the privilege of governing as they see fit and I would concede the same to every other nation.

The notion that we know better than them is just imperialism plain and simple. Just leave people alone. And if you really feel the need to fix things you can start by fixing your own country because, it does not matter what country it is, there is much that needs fixing.

--- End quote ---
You seem content to fanatically defend China's approach instead, even though we already established it's not leaving other people be either. None of the global powers will.
Navigation
Message Index
Next page
Previous page
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...

Go to full version
Powered by SMFPacks Advanced Attachments Uploader Mod