Author Topic: I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.  (Read 89742 times)

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Offline BravoV

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...The Kuomingtang was defeated in the mainland and retreated to Taiwan with all the loot they could take...

The "Taiwan problem" is entirely of American creation. If it were not for America Taiwan today would be a province of China.

What loot did they take?

The Taiwan founding father, looted a lot of Chinese treasures and brought them to the island, especially the high priced gold/gems/high priced antiques.

If you watch closely, rich (I mean old rich since WWII) American families, usually carry in their family's collection stolen Chinese antiques or high value artifacts, those were the payment for the weapon and support for the Taiwanese military in the old days when they're fighting mainland, there is no such thing as free lunch.  :P

References and even old videos documentations can be read and watched how they struggled and moved lots of those treasures in boxes through hard ship like mountains/jungles and then loaded in many big American ships when they retreated to the island.

Its like you American watching one of the state fought to liberate them self for independence, and in the process looted all gold from Fort Knox, and then used it to pay "the foreigner" to fight your own people.  >:D
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 07:54:02 am by BravoV »
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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I would quit discussion with you, because I've already expressed whatever I needed to express, and I've already earned enough Chinese social credit points for that.

Here. Let's give China a group hug. Come on people, let's group-hug China.



Other Asian nations have been equally successful as China is and they're less strident.
Simple as: they have a government the West can control, and specifically for Japan and ROK US have military bases on their soil. Now only China and DPRK is resisting, so you want to destabilize it so you can install some form of pro-Western government.

Is North Korea successful?

China is resisting against what? The money the whole world is pouring into her borders?

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Just admit that you are preaching neo-colonialism.

I just show the facts. They speak for themselves.
 

Offline technixTopic starter

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I know very little about what happens inside the CCP, because it doesn't allow independent observers or journalists. But it seemed like the CCP had some sort of internal democratic process when electing leaders after Mao, is that the meritocratic process you refer to? China has experienced amazing economic growth in recent years and that is good of course, so whatever China has been doing can't be that bad.
That internal process is what implements the meritocratic system.

There is room for improvement everywhere, in our democratic systems as well, for sure, but going back to authoritarian dictatorship would be throwing out centuries of hard earned progress.
As I said China never really had a period of history that implemented a democracy, so there is nothing to go back to really.

That is interesting. Most of Europe is also old farmland except for Scandinavia which is too far north. China is very big though, I would imagine all kinds of peoples and regions have existed there. And culture isn't static, things and people change. I'm not so sure people here and there are so different.
What I am referring to is the roots of the culture, for example as reflected by the writing system. An original farming civilization never uses a phonetic writing system, an alphabet or an abjad, instead a huge amount of logographic or ideographic symbols would be used, for example ancient Egyption hieroglyphs, for example Chinese characters. Since currently all across Europe some form of alphabet is used, whoever used to farm there are now long been assimilated into a nomadic culture and gave up their own.

It's wrong to be a hypocrite of course, but just ignoring everything else that's going on is making it too easy for oneself.
At least don't assert force, use persuasion instead and know your time to back off.

But one thing the article gets wrong... there's no such thing as corporate greed.  There's only greed of persons who run corporations (and greed of investors with profit as the only motive). 
This is just being pedantic. Corporates operates exactly as who running them want them to be, so if those people are greedy it shows up as corporate greed.

Corporations in Germany are now run with input from the supervisory board which include employee representatives.   Employees are no longer just "labor" to be exploited.  This system seems to be working well for them. 
This is something American megacorporations are trying their hardest not to get into.

A simple battery power source, "good & strong" battery, like in those olde day battery powered flash light than runs without any feedback at all, and runs until starting to dimm, and then initiate the the battery replacement process. Of course, this is the critical part, it seems like the method/process of choosing a good & strong "battery" (read:leader) in China is already quite matured, stable and proven, as we've never seen a bloody power struggle during the transition period, or country great divisions because of that battery replacement process it self.
It took Chinese 2 millennia to improve and fix that process.

China is resisting against what? The money the whole world is pouring into her borders?
Resisting against US interfering its internal process.

I just show the facts. They speak for themselves.
And I am showing a fact too as a counterpoint. That speaks volumes too.
 

Offline windsmurf

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But one thing the article gets wrong... there's no such thing as corporate greed.  There's only greed of persons who run corporations (and greed of investors with profit as the only motive). 
This is just being pedantic. Corporates operates exactly as who running them want them to be, so if those people are greedy it shows up as corporate greed.

I think there's an important distinction there to understand.  "Corporate greed" soounds like something that needs to be managed through corporate governance or corporate law.  Its not.  The root of the problem starts from the whole premise that personal "greed is good" 

 

Offline soldar

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Offline soldar

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And America, which never stops preaching western style democracy has been busy for decades overthrowing popularly elected governments and installing dictatorships in their place. And nobody seems to even recognize the contradiction.
Yes that is a travesty.
Yup. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
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Offline apis

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And America, which never stops preaching western style democracy has been busy for decades overthrowing popularly elected governments and installing dictatorships in their place. And nobody seems to even recognize the contradiction.
Yes that is a travesty.
Yup. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
I was mostly thinking of the overthrowing democratically elected governments part.
 

Offline soldar

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I was mostly thinking of the overthrowing democratically elected governments part.

Exactly. The phrase from Hamlet is used to indicate doubt concerning someone's sincerity or to suggest hypocrisy on their part. Like preaching democracy while doing the very opposite.

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Offline apis

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Of course, this is the critical part, it seems like the method/process of choosing a good & strong "battery" (read:leader) in China is already quite matured, stable and proven, as we've never seen a bloody power struggle during the transition period, or country great divisions because of that battery replacement process it self.
I'm not so sure there is less bloody power struggle in China than in democracies. Maybe China will be an exception, but look around in the world, the countries with democracy are usually better to live in. In countries with dictators people often suffer, the dictator only cares about making himself and his family rich. There are exceptions, but I think on average democracy is better because when we get bad leaders like Trump, they will not last for more than a few years. After four years the world will not have to worry about Trump again. The US will be weaker and the next president will have to try and repair the damage, but that might be for the best. It's not good when one country gets too much power, there needs to be some balance.

That is interesting. Most of Europe is also old farmland except for Scandinavia which is too far north. China is very big though, I would imagine all kinds of peoples and regions have existed there. And culture isn't static, things and people change. I'm not so sure people here and there are so different.
What I am referring to is the roots of the culture, for example as reflected by the writing system. An original farming civilization never uses a phonetic writing system, an alphabet or an abjad, instead a huge amount of logographic or ideographic symbols would be used, for example ancient Egyption hieroglyphs, for example Chinese characters. Since currently all across Europe some form of alphabet is used, whoever used to farm there are now long been assimilated into a nomadic culture and gave up their own.
I've never heard that before. Our phonetic alphabet can be traced back to the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. It's likely that such a phonetic alphabet then spread to other cultures since it could be used to encode their native languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing#Early_Semitic_alphabets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet#Consonantal_alphabets

The oldest farms have been found in the area that is now Syria, and farming then spread west to Europe, and I assume east to south Asia and China.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29213892

It's wrong to be a hypocrite of course, but just ignoring everything else that's going on is making it too easy for oneself.
At least don't assert force, use persuasion instead and know your time to back off.
Sometimes it is right to intervene, like against IS or if a country is planing genocide. But interventions should follow international law and be decided democratically by the international community through the United Nations. It's not a perfect system either, but it's the best the world has.
 

Offline soldar

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https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/03/politics/chinese-lasers-us-military-pilots-africa/index.html
Chinese lasers injure US military pilots in Africa, Pentagon says (2018)

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/06/22/asia-pacific/u-s-military-pilots-east-china-sea-targeted-laser-attacks/
U.S. military pilots in East China Sea targeted in laser attacks -  Jun 22, 2018

U.S. military pilots flying aircraft over the East China Sea have been targeted by blinding laser attacks more than 20 times over the last 10 months, U.S. officials told The Japan Times, after a number of similar attacks in East Africa that the Pentagon has said Chinese military personnel were behind.

The U.S. Indo-Pacific Command said the attacks in the waterway, where the Chinese military has bolstered its operations, were first reported last September. The incidents were believed to have come from a range of sources, “both ashore and from fishing vessels,” spokeswoman Maj. Cassandra Gesecki said.


https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/05/28/australian-navy-pilots-struck-by-lasers-in-south-china-sea/23735725/
Australian navy pilots struck by lasers in South China Sea - May 28th 2019
A witness says Australian navy helicopter pilots were hit by lasers while exercising in the South China Sea, forcing them to land as a precaution.

Scholar Euan Graham, who was onboard the Royal Australian Navy flagship HMAS Canberra on a voyage from Vietnam to Singapore, said in an account of the incident that the lasers had been pointed from fishing vessels while the Canberra was being trailed by a Chinese warship.

China maintains a robust maritime militia in the South China Sea composed of fishing vessels equipped to carry out missions just short of combat.
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Offline SparkyFX

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Financing institutions have access to that, not the sellers. If you buy something with financing, the seller asks the financing provider, and the provider queries the database.
Similar systems are in place here - in form of a private company, as there will always people try to game the system, trying to take credits to uphold a lifestyle they can not afford or try to pay for an old credit by taking up a new one. The rule of thumb is that you end up getting a record for failing to pay a rate after several notices (~ 3 months).

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when you borrow money from the bank, the bank can interpret your spending pattern as sign of low income and weak paying capability.
Credit providers here want to see the last 3 pay slips, information on your employment and so on - or other forms of security.
And then there happened a financial crisis based on faulty credits, mostly because credit providers had the wet dream of unlimited growth and wanted their monthly commission.
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Offline technixTopic starter

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*news articles removed*

China maintains a robust maritime militia in the South China Sea composed of fishing vessels equipped to carry out missions just short of combat.
While there is a lack of agreement on who owns the islands on South China Sea, it IS agreed that this area is not international waters. US and Australia are not countries bordering this area, nor do they have a claim there, so those aircrafts really should not appear there unless invited. Expect bullets when you walk across an active war zone.

I would like to say that should the aircrafts be Filipino or Vietnamese the likelihood of them being targeted by lasers would be much lower, as TBH China really don't want a war unless forced into one.

Similar systems are in place here - in form of a private company, as there will always people try to game the system, trying to take credits to uphold a lifestyle they can not afford or try to pay for an old credit by taking up a new one. The rule of thumb is that you end up getting a record for failing to pay a rate after several notices (~ 3 months).
PBOC is the central bank of China and it is one of the ministries of the government. Otherwise the PBOC system is similar.

I'm not so sure there is less bloody power struggle in China than in democracies.
At least not since the 1989 protests (which the government labeled as an unrest, and the netizens labeled as a mishandling of protesters) overall and not since 1978 for intra-CCP political processes. Arguments are still very common (as you do in a democracy,) fingers are often being pointed, but fists are no longer thrown. (This is something better than Taiwan's legislature where fist fights are common occurrences.)

I've never heard that before. Our phonetic alphabet can be traced back to the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. It's likely that such a phonetic alphabet then spread to other cultures since it could be used to encode their native languages.

*images and links removed*
Yet the meanings of the symbols are largely lost. Otherwise you would not have needed Rosetta.

Even modern Chinese text still derive its meanings from when the symbols were created back in 2nd millennium BCE as oracle bone script. And since even modern Chinese high school students are taught classic Chinese, almost anyone with a college degree in China can read and understand text contemporary of Rosetta, with some of the proverbs hailing from that time still used in daily conversation, largely retaining its original meaning.

Sometimes it is right to intervene, like against IS or if a country is planing genocide. But interventions should follow international law and be decided democratically by the international community through the United Nations. It's not a perfect system either, but it's the best the world has.
I should have said don't assert undue force. Should intervention be authorized that is whole another situation.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 07:43:39 pm by technix »
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Resisting against US interfering its internal process.

As far as I understand, the US took measures that are under their jurisdiction. They can, as any other country can, change their import taxes and ban or allow foreign companies to operate in their territory.

How can these measures be an interference in China's internal process?

 

Offline bsfeechannel

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He was talking about US's attitude to Chinese political system and Taiwan problem. This thread has long deviated from trade war.

Well, I was following Dave's request to stick to the trade war.

Anyway, China didn't seem unhappy when the US won the WWII. As I understand, if it weren't for them, China would be speaking Japanese by now.

And America, which never stops preaching western style democracy has been busy for decades overthrowing popularly elected governments and installing dictatorships in their place. And nobody seems to even recognize the contradiction.

Bingo!

A lot of people recognize. There are even books about it.

In fact they recognize a lot more: when Chinese herald that dictatorship is an alternative to democracy they are fulfilling this exact age-old US agenda.

That's why the Chinese discourse sounds like bullshit. It is the same ol' crap now painted red with some yellow stars.

For all the world, China and the US are sleeping together.

They are both part of the same hypocrisy. (Not Shakespeare, but at least it is The Godfather II).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 10:04:02 pm by bsfeechannel »
 

Offline soldar

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Anyway, China didn't seem unhappy when the US won the WWII. As I understand, if it weren't for them, China would be speaking Japanese by now.
Ha, ha. That's a good one. Where did you buy your history books?
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Offline bsfeechannel

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Anyway, China didn't seem unhappy when the US won the WWII. As I understand, if it weren't for them, China would be speaking Japanese by now.
Ha, ha. That's a good one. Where did you buy your history books?

Well, I used a little bit of hyperbole, but you get the idea.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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FYI, OT, anyway I speak Japanese.

それではこれから日本語で話しましょう。
 

Offline soldar

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We appreciate the peace brought by US. We are just mad about its political and military expansion after WWII. 
I truly believe the Greatest Generation were, indeed, the greatest.  They grew during the Depression, they fought WWII and when the war was over they returned home and built and rebuilt their countries and the world where later generations would grow up. They gave all they had and demanded little in return.

Some years ago I was talking with one of them, a WWII veteran, and he said something which made me think, he said WWII was the last war where the Americans were the good guys. I didn't take it to mean that is what he thought necessarily but that it was the most common perception now in the world. That while everybody agreed America's intervention in WWII was a good thing, all the wars that followed were perceived as wrong by most of the world. Probably he had Vietnam in mind mostly but also other interventions in other places, especially in South America.

The anniversary of D-Day is coming up and I am grateful to all the allies who fought, many of which lost their lives. They truly were the Greatest Generation.

But many Americans are very mistaken in thinking America won the war. The war was won jointly by the Allies and America's industrial output was very important but America did not come even close to paying the price paid in lives and suffering by the Soviets, Chinese, British, etc.

Also, WWII had already started in Asia when Germany invaded Poland and started the war in Europe. We tend to have a very self-centered view of history.

Now we are forgetting that it was nationalism and isolationism that caused WWII and many nations are going down that path again. The people are followers by nature and will follow any leader but it is the responsibility of the leaders to exercise good judgment and they are failing us.

Newer generations are being told by their leaders that because their grandfathers fought in WWII they have the right to privilege with respect to the rest of the world and that is just crazy. That was a long time agoand now things are different.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Quote from: soldar

[...
Newer generations are being told by their leaders that because their grandfathers fought in WWII they have the right to privilege with respect to the rest of the world and that is just crazy. [...]

It's even worse:  Newer generations are starting to forget the lessons of WWII and are beginning to make many of the same dumb mistakes that led up to it.  -  I'm thinking of the rampant nationalism that has spread like a cancer in some countries.
 

Offline soldar

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It's even worse:  Newer generations are starting to forget the lessons of WWII and are beginning to make many of the same dumb mistakes that led up to it.  -  I'm thinking of the rampant nationalism that has spread like a cancer in some countries.

Nationalism is cancer and has only led to bad things but it is so easy to show a lure, a flag, and have people follow.

Younger people are quite ignorant of history but there is much blame to go around. For one the older generations that spoiled their children and did not instill a sense of responsibility.  But mainly the leaders who gain their leadership by making enemies of outsiders. Those are the ones who bear most of the responsibility. This trade war is going to be very damaging for the entire world and it is the responsibility of a leader who convinced many Americans they could go against the world and win. I have no doubt that history will see this moment as the turning point in the decline of America and the rise of China. America has lost its place as "leader of the free world". Let us hope things don't get out of hand because most empires won't let go without trying to hang on by war.
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Offline technixTopic starter

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As far as I understand, the US took measures that are under their jurisdiction. They can, as any other country can, change their import taxes and ban or allow foreign companies to operate in their territory.

How can these measures be an interference in China's internal process?
From what I can see, the document US handed to China as the draft trade deal includes terms like:
* termination of Made in China 2025
* termination of Belt and Road Initiative
* termination of small enterprise stimulation package

Those are internal process of China.

Anyway, China didn't seem unhappy when the US won the WWII. As I understand, if it weren't for them, China would be speaking Japanese by now.
Well China won just about as much as America did. China is one of the five permanent seats in UN Security Council and have the same power as US, with the same veto power.

Actually speaking of it, China damn well should be more of a winner than US on the Pacific theatre if you consider the fact that the first component of WWII that started and the last component of WWII that ended is the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, fought between Sep. 18, 1931 and Sep. 2, 1945, all within Chinese soil. Also shouldn't it be China trapping most of the Japanese troops, Hawaii would have changed hands. American contribution on European theatre certainly pulled the balance though.

Younger people are quite ignorant of history but there is much blame to go around. For one the older generations that spoiled their children and did not instill a sense of responsibility.  But mainly the leaders who gain their leadership by making enemies of outsiders. Those are the ones who bear most of the responsibility. This trade war is going to be very damaging for the entire world and it is the responsibility of a leader who convinced many Americans they could go against the world and win. I have no doubt that history will see this moment as the turning point in the decline of America and the rise of China. America has lost its place as "leader of the free world". Let us hope things don't get out of hand because most empires won't let go without trying to hang on by war.
A good amount of people are ignorant enough to be sold Mein Kampf ideas, and there happen to be a leader that is son of a KKK member. That is going to be very dangerous.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Why is Taiwan a problem?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan

I say give them their independence.  I'd actually like California to become independent of the U.S. ... a "Calexit" of sorts.  Washington and Oregon are welcome to join  ;D

 

Offline soldar

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I say give them their independence.

You can say whatever you want but there is only one say that counts and that is China's. The chances of Taiwan becoming independent are zero and getting smaller and smaller every day.

This is the difference between China and US. In China, the general idea is the government owns the country, not the people. Therefore, every territory of the country is property of the government, not property of the people living on the land.
I don't think that is a good way of seeing it. The concept you are aiming for is "sovereignty". It is not a matter of "property" but of sovereignty.

China is a unitary state where all sovereignty is vested in the central government. The USA is a federal state where sovereignty is shared by the several states and the Federal Government each in their own spheres.

Constitutions or scholars can say that ultimately power derives from the people but this is just a nice declaration without any effect. In America all sovereignty is vested in the state and federal governments and any changes to that would have to be approved by them (or we are talking civil war). In a state all power and authority derives from the state and no town, city, county, group or individual has any legal authority except as delegated by the state.

The people of a part of the UK are not free to declare their independence from the UK (except by force if they can pull it off). The people of Hong Kong were not free to declare the independence of Hong Kong. Hong Kong was under UK sovereignty and retroceded to China's sovereignty. The people of HK had zero say in the matter because sovereignty resides in the UK as a whole, not in a group who lives in HK.

Tomorrow the UK could cede Gibraltar to Spain, or give it independence or declare it a military post and move everybody out of there and the people of Gibraltar could protest but they have no special rights. Gibraltar belongs to the UK and not to the people of Gibraltar.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 10:19:29 am by soldar »
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Offline technixTopic starter

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I say give them their independence.

You can say whatever you want but there is only one say that counts and that is China's. The chances of Taiwan becoming independent are zero and getting smaller and smaller every day.
The "one country two systems" mechanism currently applied in HK and Macau was initially designed for Taiwan actually. Under the original 1C2S rules Taiwan would be de jure a provincial-level SAR of China, but most of the Mainland laws, including the bulk of the Constitution, will be suspended and inapplicable, creating a de facto separate jurisdiction. Taiwan is not allowed its own diplomacy or weapons of mass destruction, but it is allowed its own defensive military forces, currency, customs, immigration policy, border control, and any and all domestic laws.
 

Offline apis

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Constitutions or scholars can say that ultimately power derives from the people but this is just a nice declaration without any effect.
It is not just a nice declaration. The power is derived from the people because the people elect representatives who make up the government.

In a state all power and authority derives from the state and no town, city, county, group or individual has any legal authority except as delegated by the state.
It's the government that controls the territory ultimately through military force. You can't really privately own land in the sense a lot of people think (sovereignty), you can only really lease it from the state that will grant you certain rights/monopolies in your designated area. But it's the state that ultimately decides what rights follow with "owning" land. There's lots of limits to what you can and can't do on "your own land" in the US as well.

A good amount of people are ignorant enough to be sold Mein Kampf ideas, and there happen to be a leader that is son of a KKK member. That is going to be very dangerous.
It's not just the US; nationalism is growing in Europe, Russia and China as well. The notion that we are fundamentally different peoples is a silly nationalistic idea that will only lead to trouble for example.
 


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