General > General Technical Chat
I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.
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Marco:
China doesn't need any convincing of the importance of coal, they're building a ton of plants and have a strategic coal reserve. That's one of the nice things of coal, next to uranium it's the easiest thing to stockpile ... but with coal you can also create other fossil fuels, so it's a bit more flexible.

A coal infrastructure is very good for autarky.
alank2:
The USA does indeed have the death penalty, it is a state by state thing, some states have it and others do not.
TheNewLab:
So there has already been so much said, right on task :-+ and some that are not accurate. :palm:

To the OP.
I am so sorry that the current US president and his administration is creating such chaos.

America is divided so much that any attempt at moderate discussions are useless as those voices just get hammered out of the discussion. If moderate right- extreme libertarian use money to replace with farther right in primary. left is a mess too. This country has really lost it's way, with cable news, we now have two different worlds That has been happening for decades, which means we now have children who are adults being raised with an ideology taught in one sphere only. (both sides)
What's more troubling, is what is happening is not really binary, but that is what we see. the American Democracy may be questioned if we have really had it for the last..some say 60 yrs, others 40 yrs, others 30 years, other 20 years.
As a once super power, whether the US was an example or not, I have always heard from old and more recent immigrants and those abroad, that the US was given the benefit of the doubt because we aspired for a true democracy, egalitarian and free, open society, and encouraged other nations to achieve the same.

I am told that the great change occurred was when the US invaded Iraq. (for whatever reasons, so many claimed)

Regarding these trade wars... It is stupid. and it is hurting both sides. It is hardening both nations towards a dangerous level of belligerence. Some hope this will change after 2020 election. I am not so sure, whichever party wins.

For you, on the bright side, China has become a huge economic power..#2. Hong Kong and #7 Shanghai are in the top ten financial powers in the world. After the Wall Street crash of 2007. China's government changed their economic strategy re-directing development to internal economy.
I could be critical of of what's happening in HK, or Xinjiang, but a Chinese citizen may be critical of, well, Wall Street crimes? uh, how we mass incarcerate black Americans, or ..so many issues.
Politics affects business and trade and it is we the average person that suffers.
Politicians love to drum up fear and anger...it seems to keep the masses inline, by not thinking for themselves. This as long been true.

Regarding trade, I am truly sorry it is hurting you. Just give it time...that may be too simplistic, I am constantly talking with my representatives and senators, and still feel so helpless.

I do not know what else to say without becoming political, and honestly? that would be rather pointless. |O

TheNewLab:
My aunt is from Shanghai. A city she loved.

And maybe I should have stayed away from this thread....

It all makes me so sad.
Both sides of this trade war will lose.
 Maybe we need a South American nation to become the new super power. Some nation like...Chile? or Paraguay? yeah right, like that will happen... Maybe the Aussies??
SiliconWizard:
A lot has been said and discussions have even weirdly drifted towards death penalty and moral considerations... so that's becoming a bit off-topic, but what's interesting is that it shows how many people can't even consider other opinions than their own on critical subjects.

Anyway, just a thought here. Many people seem to be either extremely naive or excessively brainwashed about the merits of "unlimited free trade".

I don't see how surprising a "trade war" of some kind would be. Past a certain scale, business IS a war. We're not living in a fantasy world. When there's a war, how surprising is it that some will start to fight?

I've often seen arguments in favor of unlimited free trade. It's often compared to some form of natural selection, leaving only the fittest alive or something. This point is largely debatable (would probably take a long time to discuss), and it also assumes ultimately having only  the "fittest" on a global market will be for the greater good. This also is largely debatable, even somewhat fallacious. But let's just assume a second that this is a valid approach.

If it is, how surprising is it that the individuals (in a general sense, could be countries here) who are witnessing they are losing ground, even if that's because they aren't "fit" enough, are willing to fight for their existence? So should the weakened ones just give up and accept to die? Seriously? That's just wicked.

Now I'm hearing another argument that some countries (such as the USA) would be *falsely* seeing the current trade situation as a threat. That it would just be a nasty fantasy of some vilains. I think we have enough figures here to determine whether it is or not. Economy is not a simple matter though.

But really, most often I think I'm hearing arguments in the first line above, something about the fittest ones and adapting to new paradigms. That the ones who can't adapt are just losers and that the new paradigms themselves are necessarily good. That's just a belief akin to some religious belief, not an ultimate truth.

I also think this is a very common misconception to claim that "free trade" as we currently practise it is a liberal (in the true sense) thing. In true liberal approaches, states absolutely don't meddle with business. In our current world, they do. A lot. This leads to a situation that can't be compared with any form of natural selection IMO. Does anyone here think China is a liberal country? It's almost the opposite of liberal.

And back to the matter, so what if chinese products become a bit more expensive in the US? Unless the taxes become delirious, they'll still be cheaper than their american counterparts. Then if they are good enough, people will keep buying them. If not, well, maybe they are not so fit after all. As some others have said here, it's not really going to hurt the US IMO, and not really China either. The US is only a small chunk of the overall global market China has. I'm feeling like many people are exxagerating things a whole lot.

Sure you may say that the options considered by the US are bad options. But really, there aren't that many tools when it comes to regulating global trade. Currencies and taxes are amongst the most common and relatively effective ones.

(Reminds me of a discussion about competition. If the main point that gets you to win competition is that you're the cheapest, does that ultimately lead to a better situation for all? And is it infinitely sustainable? Of course not.)

US *bans* are something else though. Most of them are decided for strictly political reasons and not economic ones, so that's very different. One huge problem they pose is that the US manage to force many other "friend" countries to FOLLOW their own bans quite often, whether they want it or not. THIS is very debatable and certainly isn't anything new.

So just a few random thoughts here.
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