General > General Technical Chat

I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.

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TimNJ:
Well, I surely don't have a good handle on economics or international affairs, but in the short term, the tariffs seem pretty idiotic. I work for a USA based power supply company with a manufacturing arm in Suzhou, China. I think it's not that the US is incapable of producing a power supply domestically, but rather that the USA can't compete with the incredible manufacturing supply chain that has developed in China over the last 20-30 years. So, to think slapping a 25% tariff is suddenly going to bring home manufacturing, is ignoring the global manufacturing supply chain that exists today. Literally, there is no other place in the world (and definitely not the US) where every part of the manufacturing process can be found within a 15 minute drive of each other. It's not that it couldn't exist in the US. It's just that it currently doesn't so you're not helping much, in that respect.

All that aside,

The US likes to think of itself as a (once) manufacturing superpower. And it was. But, I think that that this fondly remembered era was probably made possible by a number of international events that kind of made it the world's manufacturing center, by default. Post WWII, etc.

I suppose by the time the 80s and 90s came around, some other countries had improved their infrastructure enough that they could produce USA-built equivalents for less. So, US companies were forced to either offshore or cut their margins. I suppose most companies decided to offshore because who likes thinner margins???

Some of it I feel was just plain corporate greed. I understand that companies need to stay "competitive" but I feel that it is sometimes used as an excuse to fatten up the bottom-line for the shareholders. Did Keithley really need to move manufacturing to China? (I don't know; I'm not a business person.) But from my perspective, no, they didn't. They had a limited product line, probably a very focused R&D effort, and were likely still quite profitable (based on the price of their stuff).

So, I'm really not an offshoring sympathizer. I think it would be great if American companies looked out for Americans more. (At the same time, I'm happy that Chinese and Taiwanese and Indian people are employed.) But at the same time, I feel that it is almost your unwritten duty as a US company to at least not completely screw the people of the country you represent.

floobydust:
It's a problem with capitalism - you want maximum profit and could care less where the parts and manufacturing come from.
There's no incentive or need whatsoever to support your own country.

For decades you already see the resulting decline looking at Detroit, as manufacturers moved abroad in the 1970's to cut costs and the Rust Belt.
It's decades of decline due to outsourcing and no way Trump can reverse that in one or two terms.

PRC authoritarian government is excelling in certain areas - they have a long term plan for growth, direction and financing to back that up. They are pro-business and for now, have low labour costs and a devalued currency.

Canada, the USA and other nations cannot compete under their democracy, in that it with every election it just oscillates between liberal/conservative governments that do very little for leadership due to their short terms at the helm and general ineptitude.
 
Look at Canada needing a pipeline to get crude oil to port. The SJW and environmentalists, politics etc. make it impossible. China would start the bulldozers, relocate people use the iron fist and get it done without batting an eye. Same for roadways, trains, dams, cities, refineries, chemical plants etc.
The West has no plan or ability to be more competitive.

BravoV:

--- Quote from: floobydust on May 24, 2019, 05:37:45 am ---PRC authoritarian government is excelling in certain areas - they have a long term plan for growth, direction and financing to back that up. They are pro-business and for now, have low labour costs and a devalued currency.
--- End quote ---

Interesting era to watch on how the PRC top officials are responding, planning and executing their grand plan regarding the technology war.

technix:

--- Quote from: TimNJ on May 24, 2019, 04:04:16 am ---The US likes to think of itself as a (once) manufacturing superpower. And it was. But, I think that that this fondly remembered era was probably made possible by a number of international events that kind of made it the world's manufacturing center, by default. Post WWII, etc.

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: floobydust on May 24, 2019, 05:37:45 am ---For decades you already see the resulting decline looking at Detroit, as manufacturers moved abroad in the 1970's to cut costs and the Rust Belt.
It's decades of decline due to outsourcing and no way Trump can reverse that in one or two terms.

--- End quote ---
It is international competition that allowed the what is now the rust belt to go rusted, and US did nothing to fix that. So maybe US should start with fixing that part up instead of slapping tariffs on people or banning companies or embargoing.


--- Quote from: floobydust on May 24, 2019, 05:37:45 am ---It's a problem with capitalism - you want maximum profit and could care less where the parts and manufacturing come from.
There's no incentive or need whatsoever to support your own country.

--- End quote ---
Also I would like to question whether US is really still a capitalist country, or is it more like an oligarchy akin to Russia, with all those megacorporations lobbying the congress and all. Just take electronics component sample supplier as an example, in US you have Mouser, Digi-Key, Farnell, maybe RadioShack and that is it. In China when you step into the Huaqiang North SEG market each stall is an individual participant of the market. How competitive can it be with only 4 or 5 players, compared to a market with 400 or 500 players?


--- Quote from: floobydust on May 24, 2019, 05:37:45 am ---PRC authoritarian government is excelling in certain areas - they have a long term plan for growth, direction and financing to back that up. They are pro-business and for now, have low labour costs and a devalued currency.

--- End quote ---
Long-term planning and democracy are not mutually exclusive either. Look at Singapore.

technix:

--- Quote from: blueskull on May 24, 2019, 06:00:23 am ---Why is manufacturing so important? Why can't we let people do creative stuffs like making YT videos or making handcrafts?

--- End quote ---
Ooh do the US have the level of education to back that type of economy though...? With the low quality of public schools, and the high price of high quality education, can average Joe in US afford that kind of education? US is suffering from a decrease of adult literacy (let alone higher education participation) recently.


--- Quote from: blueskull on May 24, 2019, 06:09:29 am ---
--- Quote from: technix on May 24, 2019, 06:04:49 am ---Long-term planning and democracy are not mutually exclusive either. Look at Singapore.

--- End quote ---

Shhhhh. They think Singapore has a flawed democracy. It makes me wonder the democracy in the west must be good.

--- End quote ---
Singaporean democracy is almost copied directly from UK, and the lack of competition against PAP prompted it to implement a "political anti-monopoly law" against itself. The perceived flaw by the west is really two-fold: why PAP have no competition, and why there is that "political anti-monopoly law". Also western politicians really should spend some time studying why PAP can be so popular.

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