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I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.

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soldar:

--- Quote from: sourcecharge on May 24, 2019, 07:20:18 am --- This is a long term trade war that China can not win.  We all know it, and no matter how much propaganda you throw at us, we (true americans) are with those that are for our interests first.

MAGA
--- End quote ---

Americans who think that way are whistling in the dark and they know it. They want the future to not happen. They want to go back to a past that never existed in reality. The bury their heads in the sand because they don't like the reality they see.

America became great by competing, by engaging, by innovating and doing the opposite is not going to turn the clock back.

In this case it is not America against China, which America could not win anyway, it is America against the world. No country in the world is supporting America in this trade war and most developed countries have come out against America. That should tell us something. Strongmen who promise to make the country great again are dangerous, very dangerous.

From about 1950 to about 1975 China followed a policy of complete isolation. They thought they had all they needed and had no need to interact with the outside world. The result is that millions died in the political struggles and the famines that followed. That is the way America wants to head towards.

In the mid 1980s China turned around and opened up to the world and started shifting towards capitalism. The result has been a huge success. 

The problems of America are not caused by China, they are caused by a changing world to which America does not want to adapt.

In reality Americans today have a better standard of living than they have ever had but the MAGA crowd cannot bear to see people of other countries catching up. They want the rest of the world to be way below America, and even minorities in America to know their place. It is purely envy of the other guys catching up. It is very ugly and very immoral.

America has many different economies within itself. It has highly productive areas and sectors and the best environment in any country in the world to start a business. It is not by coincidence that Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, etc. all were so successful in America. And these people and their companies are all against the trade wars. They are very successful in selling abroad.

But America also has a huge population which is under-educated and can be sold the illusion that America can turn the clock back sixty years to when the rest of the world had been destroyed and America was king of the world.  It cannot happen and it is not going to happen. America has the leading edge and it also has huge areas which are comparable to the third world and these are the people who think they can turn the clock back. The under-educated masses demand protection but the protection they demand will only bring the entire country down.

America's share of the world's economy has been decreasing for decades as Europe and other countries developed but it seems some Americans cannot live in a world where they are not top dogs. America needs to get used to the idea that the world has changed and America can no longer impose its will on others like it used to.

This trade war is totally irresponsible and it already doing great damage to the world economy but at the end of the day America will be the one to have suffered most damage.

SparkyFX:

--- Quote from: windsmurf on May 24, 2019, 08:10:52 am ---Germany is Democratic Socialist isn't it?   The U.S. may be headed that way as well.
--- End quote ---
What is understood as socialism or socialist in Germany or Europe might not be what Americans understand as socialism - many people have tried to redefine what that means anyway. There is also a big difference in the meaning of "social" and "socialist" - here.
So maybe it might help to explain this a bit, although off topic:
The direct translation would be the liberal democratic basic order (forms the constitution) and the social market economy, there used to be some collectively (state) owned companies (Telecom, Railroad, Post), but most got privatized in the last 30 years, production and wealth is generally not collectively owned, infrastructure, regional utilities might be. Former East-Germany (ceased to exist in 1990) and various other former eastern block countries are a different story, there used to be socialism and practically everything was collectively owned, but not anymore.

Social insurances (health, unemployment, pension, long term care) are however mandatory for practically anyone (tightly regulated, some costs partially split between employee and employer) and unions do not have that bad of a reputation. That forms the social net - or grid. It is not unlimited, but covers some worries and incidents you can not control or might need anyway.
Hopefully i explained this right.

So, collecting/owning all wealth and then redistributing it is a socialist concept, and there were plenty of bad examples to choose from, either from former east germany or west germany, all systems have inherent problems and people are subject to group psychology wherever groups of people are.

Marco:

--- Quote from: blueskull on May 24, 2019, 02:12:44 am ---Human right in China is not the business of the west.

--- End quote ---

That's negotiable ...

What is the business of the US is really anything it makes its business. If it wants to "negotiate" changes within China it has the power to do so, just as China has the power to "negotiate" changes in territoriality with its neighbours. Gunboat diplomacy. Now of course especially obstinate countries can resist those "negotiations", in both cases, but their economy will suffer the cost. It's good to be on top and the US is top whenever it chooses to be.

It's debatable whether Trump uses that power responsibly, but I personally think that the US letting that power be eroded by having their autarkic potential be destroyed is not good for the US ... or the world. There's worse than Trump.

jancumps:
Your explanation of the German market is quite good. I don't know how that website got the data but France and Germany are marked as socialdemocrat and Belgium not. While we all share virtually the same economic and democratic look and feel.

technix:

--- Quote from: Marco on May 24, 2019, 12:02:18 pm ---That's negotiable ...

--- End quote ---
If US think it have the right to negotiate over human rights in China, China can reciprocate with negotiations over gun rights, abortion rights, overseas military bases or Medicare-for-All too. Do you think US will accept that kind of conditions? If not, human rights in China is equally nonnegotiable.

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