I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.

[soldar]

Farmers have always been subsidized here.

And now $16 billion more to offset trade war losses.

Shoe retailers against trade war:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/05/21/nike-converse-adidas-among-shoe-retailers-warning-trump-against-trade-war-with-china/
Nike, Converse, Adidas among 170 shoe retailers warning Trump against trade war with China
In a letter, the companies warn of the “catastrophic” effects of the proposed tariffs

Nike and other shoe companies sent a letter to the White House warning of the “catastrophic” effects President Trump’s proposed 25 percent tariff would have on consumers, companies and the U.S. economy. (Mike Segar/Reuters)

[Marco]

Free trade was supposed to make Russia and China nice, progressive and easy going. Instead Putin is poisoning dissidents in foreign countries and annexing Russophone regions and China is getting ready to annex half the pacific ocean. It's politically correct to isolate Russia, but it's politically incorrect to recognize China is a country the west should never have been building up economically and shouldn't continue to do so. Until failure becomes undeniable such as in Russia's case, the only international policy allowed in politically correct circles is more free trade.

Trump is not willing to sacrifice the US's autarky on the altar of free trade only to build up a future enemy in the vain hope they will become less dangerous over time. He might be a clown doing it for all the wrong reasons, but there's something to be said for cutting our losses and assuming that China is never going to be anything else but an enemy to be contained until their regime changes. It might very well be true.

[soldar]

Free trade was supposed to make Russia and China nice, progressive and easy going.

Really? Where did you hear that?

[Bud]

Farmers have always been subsidized here.

And now $16 billion more to offset trade war losses.

Shoe retailers against trade war:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/05/21/nike-converse-adidas-among-shoe-retailers-warning-trump-against-trade-war-with-china/
Nike, Converse, Adidas among 170 shoe retailers warning Trump against trade war with China
In a letter, the companies warn of the “catastrophic” effects of the proposed tariffs

Nike and other shoe companies sent a letter to the White House warning of the “catastrophic” effects President Trump’s proposed 25 percent tariff would have on consumers, companies and the U.S. economy. (Mike Segar/Reuters)

Have not heard about the second one but Nike and Adidas make crap these days. They are the last brands i look at when buying a new pair of running shoes.

[Marco]

Really? Where did you hear that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace

[Psi]

Trade wars are stupidly stupid and nobody is going to win anything in the short run but my prediction is that in the long run China will come out ahead of the USA.

In the long run i think the effect will hurt the US.
Their economy isn't in the most stable position. (Printing more money to stay afloat, etc)

[EEVblog]

Trump didnt come to power by the people but by the Electoral College, US citizens barely makes a recommendation
on whom to become president,the deplorabels are already throw under the bus without knowing it.

The genius of the Electoral College is almost always underestimated.

Stick to the trade war please

[rstofer]

Farmers have always been subsidized here.

And now $16 billion more to offset trade war losses.

Which is paid for out of the $50B tariff.  Who cares?  From China's point of view, importing farm goods isn't all that important. The part that's outrageous is that we only sell China about $23B worth of produce.  How can farmers possibly lose $16B on $23B worth of business with only a 25% tariff.

With Brazil and Argentina picking up the slack in soybeans, American farmers better change crops.  They will never again be selling soybeans to China regardless of the trade situation.  Now if we could just get China to block almonds.  That would really help California!

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/trump-second-round-farmer-aid-us-china-trade

[magic]

Americans should not feel privileged.

I think their egos may be inflated by all those trying to get into America, go figure

If you can't compete competition from worldwide, you should be phased out.

I wonder if you will say the same if China is flooded by immigrants from, say, Africa?
Truth is, as long as there are poor countries, there will always be desperate people willing to do whatever you do, but for less. You cannot win competition on price if you want to have a higher standard of life than whatever happens to be the worst hellhole on Earth in given year.
Free trade and free migration are pipe dreams of some weirdest Western idealists, I think it's clear that none of it is going to last.

[bsfeechannel]

The primary reason for US trade deficits is that the US export most in demand is US currency. When we buy goods from you, you are buying our dollars - the world's most valued reserve currency and accepted for goods around the world. Why would you waste them on US goods?

Lemme get this straight. In exchange for their goods sent to the US, China gets an I.O.U. (a.k.a. dollars).

So China is basically in the hands of the US.

[Marco]

Nice, progressive and easy going to whom?

Everyone with a coast near China would be nice to start with.

Not going to happen. If the west tries to shape our civilization, there will be nothing but hostility.

If the alternative is getting stabbed in the back down the road, maybe some upfront hostility is the better option for the west.

[Marco]

Lemme get this straight. In exchange for their goods sent to the US, China gets an I.O.U. (a.k.a. dollars).

Mercantilism allows you to quickly build up industry.

Economic interconnectedness and near monopoly power over some goods also gives you a measure of power, trying to force China to backdown over human rights or territorial disputes through sanctions would hurt the US a lot more now than it would have two decades ago.

[floobydust]

It's refreshing to hear the indoctrination and early childhood programming done by the state.

“No law requires any company in China to install mandatory back doors” Ren Zhengfei CEO Huawei
“Their primary goal is to protect their own ability to hack and intrude and steal Western data” Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, D-R.I.

Given the aggression and hostility china is showing the world, who would you believe?

[ruffy91]

It's refreshing to hear the indoctrination and early childhood programming done by the state.

“No law requires any company in China to install mandatory back doors” Ren Zhengfei CEO Huawei
“Their primary goal is to protect their own ability to hack and intrude and steal Western data” Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, D-R.I.

Given the aggression and hostility china is showing the world, who would you believe?

"If chinese government is able to force companies to spy it's evil. If we do it it's good because we are the good ones."

[soldar]

Given the aggression and hostility china is showing the world, who would you believe?

I guess it depends on the point of view. From where I sit it is America who is showing aggression and hostility.

But I guess Americans see China as dangerous.

Cet animal est très mechant,
Quand on l'attaque il se défend.
 (La Ménagerie, Theodore P.K.)

This animal is very wicked,
when attacked it will defend itself.

[TimNJ]

Well, I surely don't have a good handle on economics or international affairs, but in the short term, the tariffs seem pretty idiotic. I work for a USA based power supply company with a manufacturing arm in Suzhou, China. I think it's not that the US is incapable of producing a power supply domestically, but rather that the USA can't compete with the incredible manufacturing supply chain that has developed in China over the last 20-30 years. So, to think slapping a 25% tariff is suddenly going to bring home manufacturing, is ignoring the global manufacturing supply chain that exists today. Literally, there is no other place in the world (and definitely not the US) where every part of the manufacturing process can be found within a 15 minute drive of each other. It's not that it couldn't exist in the US. It's just that it currently doesn't so you're not helping much, in that respect.

All that aside,

The US likes to think of itself as a (once) manufacturing superpower. And it was. But, I think that that this fondly remembered era was probably made possible by a number of international events that kind of made it the world's manufacturing center, by default. Post WWII, etc.

I suppose by the time the 80s and 90s came around, some other countries had improved their infrastructure enough that they could produce USA-built equivalents for less. So, US companies were forced to either offshore or cut their margins. I suppose most companies decided to offshore because who likes thinner margins???

Some of it I feel was just plain corporate greed. I understand that companies need to stay "competitive" but I feel that it is sometimes used as an excuse to fatten up the bottom-line for the shareholders. Did Keithley really need to move manufacturing to China? (I don't know; I'm not a business person.) But from my perspective, no, they didn't. They had a limited product line, probably a very focused R&D effort, and were likely still quite profitable (based on the price of their stuff).

So, I'm really not an offshoring sympathizer. I think it would be great if American companies looked out for Americans more. (At the same time, I'm happy that Chinese and Taiwanese and Indian people are employed.) But at the same time, I feel that it is almost your unwritten duty as a US company to at least not completely screw the people of the country you represent.

[floobydust]

It's a problem with capitalism - you want maximum profit and could care less where the parts and manufacturing come from.
There's no incentive or need whatsoever to support your own country.

For decades you already see the resulting decline looking at Detroit, as manufacturers moved abroad in the 1970's to cut costs and the Rust Belt.
It's decades of decline due to outsourcing and no way Trump can reverse that in one or two terms.

PRC authoritarian government is excelling in certain areas - they have a long term plan for growth, direction and financing to back that up. They are pro-business and for now, have low labour costs and a devalued currency.

Canada, the USA and other nations cannot compete under their democracy, in that it with every election it just oscillates between liberal/conservative governments that do very little for leadership due to their short terms at the helm and general ineptitude.
 
Look at Canada needing a pipeline to get crude oil to port. The SJW and environmentalists, politics etc. make it impossible. China would start the bulldozers, relocate people use the iron fist and get it done without batting an eye. Same for roadways, trains, dams, cities, refineries, chemical plants etc.
The West has no plan or ability to be more competitive.

[BravoV]

PRC authoritarian government is excelling in certain areas - they have a long term plan for growth, direction and financing to back that up. They are pro-business and for now, have low labour costs and a devalued currency.

Interesting era to watch on how the PRC top officials are responding, planning and executing their grand plan regarding the technology war.

[technix]

The US likes to think of itself as a (once) manufacturing superpower. And it was. But, I think that that this fondly remembered era was probably made possible by a number of international events that kind of made it the world's manufacturing center, by default. Post WWII, etc.

For decades you already see the resulting decline looking at Detroit, as manufacturers moved abroad in the 1970's to cut costs and the Rust Belt.
It's decades of decline due to outsourcing and no way Trump can reverse that in one or two terms.

It is international competition that allowed the what is now the rust belt to go rusted, and US did nothing to fix that. So maybe US should start with fixing that part up instead of slapping tariffs on people or banning companies or embargoing.

It's a problem with capitalism - you want maximum profit and could care less where the parts and manufacturing come from.
There's no incentive or need whatsoever to support your own country.

Also I would like to question whether US is really still a capitalist country, or is it more like an oligarchy akin to Russia, with all those megacorporations lobbying the congress and all. Just take electronics component sample supplier as an example, in US you have Mouser, Digi-Key, Farnell, maybe RadioShack and that is it. In China when you step into the Huaqiang North SEG market each stall is an individual participant of the market. How competitive can it be with only 4 or 5 players, compared to a market with 400 or 500 players?

PRC authoritarian government is excelling in certain areas - they have a long term plan for growth, direction and financing to back that up. They are pro-business and for now, have low labour costs and a devalued currency.

Long-term planning and democracy are not mutually exclusive either. Look at Singapore.

[technix]

Why is manufacturing so important? Why can't we let people do creative stuffs like making YT videos or making handcrafts?

Ooh do the US have the level of education to back that type of economy though...? With the low quality of public schools, and the high price of high quality education, can average Joe in US afford that kind of education? US is suffering from a decrease of adult literacy (let alone higher education participation) recently.

Long-term planning and democracy are not mutually exclusive either. Look at Singapore.

Shhhhh. They think Singapore has a flawed democracy. It makes me wonder the democracy in the west must be good.

Singaporean democracy is almost copied directly from UK, and the lack of competition against PAP prompted it to implement a "political anti-monopoly law" against itself. The perceived flaw by the west is really two-fold: why PAP have no competition, and why there is that "political anti-monopoly law". Also western politicians really should spend some time studying why PAP can be so popular.

[sourcecharge]

China is simply waiting for another US politican that will sell out the US again.

There is a trade deficit, and you think that China will be just fine.  Well that is one opinion.  Another opinion is that China's economy is tanking. 

The trade war isn't just about the trade deficit, but mainly about intellectual property.  Anyone that does business in china knows how this goes.  If you need to have someone in a China manufacturing plant understand how to test something with new test equipment, China requires the specs and blueprints to this test equipment that is not even made by your company.  This is completely unacceptable, and you should know that this is why China has become technilogically advanced.  They walked away from the latest trade deal because they want to keep stealling technology.

The long term understanding is that sooner or later, companies will figure out that no matter how much propaganda, no matter how much money they pump into politicians that want to give away the farm, the tarifs are not going away.  These companies will move back to the US, and more jobs will be created in the US.  On top of it all, as technology increases in the US, China will fall behind and become less competetive.

This is a long term trade war that China can not win.  We all know it, and no matter how much propaganda you throw at us, we (true americans) are with those that are for our interests first.

MAGA

[technix]

Dang now we even have people with those red caps showing up here.

[sourcecharge]

If you need to have someone in a China manufacturing plant understand how to test something with new test equipment, China requires the specs and blueprints to this test equipment that is not even made by your company.

What can be stolen this way is the whole design, which is basically where clones are from.

We have advanced enough that cloning is no longer our business.

Nowadays, China has a lot of well trained engineer. We don't need anything to be made in China to steal the IP.

In fact, I've shown a few times on beginner and repair sectors that I can reverse engineer something just by looking at some pictures or even marketing material.

Cloning is no longer making money as everyone can do it. Reverse engineer it, learn how it works, and engineer from ground up is the new trend in China.

We don't care if it's made in China or not. We don't even need to have the thing physically on hand.

As long as there's a teardown, even with chip markings sanded off, we can reverse engineer it.

So God bless America.

How are those engines coming along with those F22 knockoffs?

Dang now we even have people with those red caps showing up here.

We have alway been here, most don't want to give you the time of day let alone the opinion that you so obviously want to change.

[SparkyFX]

The term "trade war" is... a joke in itself, an extreme platitude. The "our own population is the one that pays for our newly introduced tariffs and our own companies will simply raise their price because foreign competition + tariffs allows them to do so" did not go very well through the slogan department.

Because when you import, not the sender pays the tariffs, you do - from your money and a local company will do the profit maximization scheme anyway - as all good capitalists do, right? If they were selling imported goods, they put any tariff on top of the sales price anyway, if they were manufacturing local the market price for an item their competitor needs to pay tariffs for just went up and they follow suit.

So instead of creating jobs, it simply reduces spending behavior (less tax income) or just means your already taxed income is taxed twice by the government if you really have to buy.

Of course the government can put this money somewhere else... mainly into debt, but surely not into jobs.
Governments can not create jobs (with digital information processing there is even less jobs in an administration than before) - and a subsidized job can not be a viable long term plan or has to be very important. Well... unless you´re into the "starting wars", "military-industrial complex" or "industrial espionage" type of discussions.

Btw. maximizing tax and redistributing it is commonly understood as socialist method of running a government.
I see no reason why republicans cheer for that in republican conventions, nor why they cheer for a "war", while being at the short end of the stick (and need to resort to this kind of wording, redefinition or outright lying).

[windsmurf]

...
So instead of creating jobs, it simply reduces spending behavior (less tax income) or just means your already taxed income is taxed twice by the government if you really have to buy.
...
Btw. maximizing tax and redistributing it is commonly understood as socialist method of running a government.
...

Triple-taxed, after State and local sales taxes are paid.

Germany is Democratic Socialist isn't it?   The U.S. may be headed that way as well.