I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.

[soldar]

People believe what they want to believe. And they do not care otherwise.

I am just a poor boy
Though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocket full of mumbles,
such are promises
All lies and jests
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest

-- Simon and Garfunkel -- The Boxer

Whatever deficits this man might have, he knows how to play his instrument ...

It is an interesting aspect of human psychology that we believe something and later search and find the reasons to believe it and not the other way around. Experiments have shown that people who follow charlatans, preachers, etc. , the more they are shown proof they are being lied to and swindled the more they double down in their beliefs. No amount of evidence and reasoning is going to get them to reconsider their stand. Sect leaders that predicted the end of the world. When it didn't happen, did the followers consider it might all have been a farce? No, they just choose another date for the end of the world and start anew.

Believing protectionism will be beneficial can only be in the heads of those who discount all reasoning and all evidence. If there is one thing economists agree on it is that protectionism is prejudicial to everybody but especially to the side implementing it. History supports such stance in pretty much every instance. In the short time since the trade war started it has already produced much damage to the American economy and no observable benefit. Pretty much all the companies this policy was supposed to protect have come out against it. No matter. Joe farmer disregards everything and likes the warm feeling he gets when he hears Trump tell him he is going to turn the clock back fifty years. That is all the evidence he needs.

They see a factory that shut down because of globalization but they choose not to see the high-tech start-ups that happen for the same reason. Those new companies create much more value and wealth than the one that shut down but politicians will only harp on the negative.

The fact that so many successful politicians are such shameless liars is not only a reflection on them, it is also a reflection on us. When the people want the impossible, only liars can satisfy them, and only in the short run.

When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.

- - Thomas Sowell, American economist and social theorist

[windsmurf]

No comment:
...

People believe what they want to believe. And they do not care otherwise. Main thing is: it will make America great again!

Whatever deficits this man might have, he knows how to play his instrument ...

Trump is definitely going down in flames in 2020... then the law will catch up to him as he loses legal immunity.
Recession likely will be in full swing unfortunately by election time as well... that'll be his final blow.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/one-countys-rv-industry-points-to-recession-around-the-bend-11566207001
...
Shipments of recreational vehicles to dealers have fallen about 20% so far this year, after a 4.1% drop last year, according to data from the RV Industry Association. Multiyear drops in shipments have preceded the last three recessions.

“The RV industry is better at calling recessions than economists are,” said Michael Hicks, an economist at Ball State University, in Muncie, Ind. Mr. Hicks says softening consumer demand for RVs coupled with rising vehicle prices due to tariffs suggests the economy is either in a recession or soon headed for one.
...

[soldar]

Trump is definitely going down in flames in 2020...

I try not to make predictions about the future so I won't. Still, whether Trump wins or loses is a small part of the picture. America is deeply divided. His diehard supporters will continue to support him and his ideas and blame and demonize those who disagree with them. If they lose the election they will do everything in their hand to obstruct and torpedo everything the democrats try to do.

The problem with America is not Trump. Trump is a symptom of the underlying problem. Of a country that has become polarized and divided. That is the real problem. That half the Americans believe the other half are their enemies.

America needs a lot of healing and coming together but Trump has only exacerbated the divide.   His internal policy is "undo everything Obama did" and humiliate democrats as much as possible just to make his base feel superior. And his foreign policy is to confront and humiliate and be rude to the rest of the world so his base can be proud of him. Yeah! He insulted Merkel and he took a dump on the lawn of Buckingham palace! That'll teach the world who's the boss!

[coppice]

Trump is definitely going down in flames in 2020...

Aren't 2 party systems wonderful? You don't vote a good person in. You voter the worst person out.

If you want to know what will happen in 2020 its no good just looking at Trump. You have to look at the alternative. Right now the options are looking even worse than Trump. One of two things will happen in 2020. 1) The next recession will be here, and the incumbent will lose at usual. 2) The economy will have kicked the recession can down the road for the next president to deal with, and Trump will get re-elected, because even an amoral moron beats the crazies on the other side.

[soldar]

He, he, just saw something funny in the news. The president of France, Makron, yesterday met with Putin and felt obligated to lecture him on Human Rights and not beating up demonstrators.

This is funny because if there is a country on earth where police regularly beat up protesters it is France and if there is one person in the world who needs to keep his mouth shut about criticizing beating up protesters that is the president of the French Republique.

Makron either has an incredible amount of chutzpah or is right up there with Trump in stupidity and lack of self-awareness.

Putin, of course, mentioned the recent protests of Yellow Jackets in Paris and I believe that was the end of that topic.

It seems some people really do not see the contradiction and the irony. Makron must think that there is an essential difference between beating up French demonstrators and beating up foreign demonstrators. "In Paris they are demonstrating against ME and that I don't like but in Moscow they are protesting against Putin who I dislike so that is good."
 

[coppice]

He, he, just saw something funny in the news. The president of France, Makron, yesterday met with Putin and felt obligated to lecture him on Human Rights and not beating up demonstrators.

This is funny because if there is a country on earth where police regularly beat up protesters it is France and if there is one person in the world who needs to keep his mouth shut about criticizing beating up protesters that is the president of the French Republique.

Makron either has an incredible amount of chutzpah or is right up there with Trump in stupidity and lack of self-awareness.

Putin, of course, mentioned the recent protests of Yellow Jackets in Paris and I believe that was the end of that topic.

It seems some people really do not see the contradiction and the irony. Makron must think that there is an essential difference between beating up French demonstrators and beating up foreign demonstrators. "In Paris they are demonstrating against ME and that I don't like but in Moscow they are protesting against Putin who I dislike so that is good."
 

But we only control the crowds. The bad people ATTACK them.

[soldar]

Not content with doing their own trade war, America was threatening European countries with sanctions is they continued to do business with Huawei. Little by little most countries have chosen to use Huawei in their 5G implementation and America is backing off the hard talk. When you threaten and people do their thing anyway it makes you lose authority.

It seems the only one holding out out is America's lapdog. I mean if they are leaving Europe to sail across the Atlantic they better be in the good graces of the American Empire. They are going to wait until America has developed something in 5G which can compete with Huawei. Any day now...

https://www.cnet.com/news/us-reportedly-no-longer-demands-huawei-ban-from-germany/?ftag=CMG-01-10aaa1b
US reportedly no longer demands Huawei ban from Germany
It previously threatened to limit intel sharing unless Huawei was excluded from Germany's 5G rollout.

This is funny because America was caught spying and listening on Angela Merkel's calls and now, without any proof, they accuse Huawei of spying.

[GK]

This guy married a Taiwanese wife and adopted Western democracy. He should be banned from calling himself Chinese, which is in his YT channel banner.

I bet either he is working on political asylum green card, or is just a whiny bitch.

Why does it matter whom he married?  Why shouldn't Chinese individuals be allowed to hold differing political beliefs?  In the U.S. views such as yours would be considered intolerant and racist... and usually come from alt-right folks who denigrate others for marrying outside their race and label them "unAmerican."

Oh it's racist alright, unambiguously so. You don't need much imagination to project into an analogous but alternate racial context. And the nerve hit over some perceived adoption of western ideals! - buy a guy who is a guest of a western nation which is giving him an education. I can only imagine his indignation back on his home turf towards any foreigner expressing anything even vaguely resembling a similar kind of insolence. I doubt that it would be as polite as your response.

Despite isolated pockets of hicks of various flavors which are more often the not erroneously portrayed as representing the norm, the U.S. is one of the most ethnically and culturally diverse melting pots and overall least racist country on the planet. China is on the other hand is one of the most ethnically and culturally homogeneous and still has a hell of a long way to go.

[GK]

NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.
An optional additional explanation is:

[SiliconWizard]

Name-calling is not something I approve of.

But yes this thread has become 100% political now. The only reason I see for keeping it alive is the interest in the base topic and the potential consequences for our professional activities, but I'm not sure it's really going anywhere at this point. Just a thought.

[MyHeadHz]

This guy married a Taiwanese wife and adopted Western democracy. He should be banned from calling himself Chinese, which is in his YT channel banner.

I bet either he is working on political asylum green card, or is just a whiny bitch.

Why does it matter whom he married?  Why shouldn't Chinese individuals be allowed to hold differing political beliefs?  In the U.S. views such as yours would be considered intolerant and racist... and usually come from alt-right folks who denigrate others for marrying outside their race and label them "unAmerican."

Haha, you hit the nail on the head with your previous post, but you didn't know what to do about it lol

Diversion.  Projection.  Straw men.  All you are ever going to get is an endless string of logical fallacies and gibberish until you eventually lose interest.  You erred by assuming that the goal of your partners in conversation was the same as yours- to find out the truth by applying logical rules until a clear logic-based understanding becomes clear.  What you failed to consider was whether your partner's goals were the same as yours.  What do you do when you realize the goal of the person you are talking with is something other than a genuine quest for the truth and logical understanding?  Like the famous War Games quote says, "the only winning move is not to play."

Alternatively, you can do what I do- have yourself a nice round of logical fallacy 50 Cent Bingo.  Bonus points if you photoshop a 'relevant symbol' in the background for effect before printing.  Then, watch with glee as some unsuspecting victim gets played like a fiddle. 

Much like dealing with narcissists and sociopaths, do not directly engage with their logical diversions, though, as nothing productive can be had from it.  You will be seeing more and more of it in the coming years.  Re-read this thread and see where the conversation went awry so you can notice it sooner in the future and save yourself a lot of time.  There are distinct patterns that are obvious once you know what to look for.  Awareness is key.  I recommending engage in only clearly productive points and conversation, and completely ignoring off-topic points and diversions as if they were never happened.  They are often skilled manipulators able to drag you right back in to controversy with the slightest engagement.

Also be aware that they are often normal people just like you and me.  It's just a different system, and every-day people will do what they can to survive and have a decent life given the challenges that they face. 

edit: Another key strategy as of late is to derail conversations to indirectly silence discourse on the matter, such as having otherwise productive threads derailed. 

[soldar]

Soldar for one appears to have an arsehole bigger than any bovine and he must be on a diet of laxatives now.

For insults in the past I have CK on my ignore list so I do not see his posts until quoted. Anyone who is abusive or insulting towards me or others automatically goes on my ignore list.

I strive to be respectful.  If someone feels being abusive or assholish is their only resort, to me it pretty much shows what kind of person they are and that they have not much of value to contribute to the conversation.

If that is the best argument against my posts then I feel I am on the right path. In general we are managing to carry on a conversation and disagreeing without being disagreeable, which I think is valuable. 

I would appreciate it if that post was reported to the mods. It diminishes the tone of the board to a level I do not think is what we want.

[Galenbo]

The "Trade war" is definitely a construct of the sensation press.

The trade deficit isn't, that's real.
Doing nothing about it is bad, doing something about it will never be perfect.

[GK]

I can only imagine his indignation back on his home turf towards any foreigner expressing anything even vaguely resembling a similar kind of insolence.

I have no problems working with Westerners in China. Most of them know the rules -- no badmouthing of the CCP, no badmouthing of the Chinese culture. When in Rome, do Romans do.
With that level of respect in place, I have no reason not to be nice with them.

China is on the other hand is one of the most ethnically and culturally homogeneous and still has a hell of a long way to go.

We are proud of being homogeneous, unified and even myself as a mix ethnicity (1/4 Korean, 1/4 Manchurian and 1/2 Han), assimilated.

Refer to my first point. He's among the minority Westerners who don't know the rules.

It's a miracle that he didn't get deported. FYI, even he claimed he did some criminal activities in China, mostly minor ones (like illegal employment, which he calls monkey jobs), but that should be enough if the CCP wants to find a reason to toss him in jail for a few days as a warning shot.

I feel bad for the CCP being incapable not deporting him or limiting his access to all VPNs. The CCP has capability to put someone on no VPN limitation, or even a white list-based internet access.

Good grief. You aren't even offering a logical refutation of anything that I wrote, but rather just adding to the growing inventory of supporting exhibits; if that is your intent or not I really couldn't care to ponder at this stage.

It is precisely "the (Orwellian) rules" and attendant cultural baggage that these assorted westerners with ties to China and these (allegedly) corrupted (by western ideals, Taiwanese spouses, etc) Chinese are outspoken against. But you see nothing valid in any of their gripes, grievances or complaints, simply because they aren't railing against anything in Chinese culture or politics that you actually consider, when it comes down to it, is wrong or worth being bothered over. They are just ones that you think "don't know the rules". They are "whiny". They are "Bitches". They should be stripped of and denied of their cultural identity, silenced and/or "deported" - as you plainly say (with some not insignificant pride I might assume), you are a "very intolerant person" and there is to be "no badmouthing of the CCP, no badmouthing of the Chinese culture".

Yes, siree Bob! Now that's exactly how bigotries are overcome and cultures evolve! By quashing any dissent against authority and the status quo!

[daqq]

China is on the other hand is one of the most ethnically and culturally homogeneous and still has a hell of a long way to go.

You make it sound as though being homogeneous in terms of culture and ethnicity is a bad thing. Why do you think that it's bad?

[GK]

China is on the other hand is one of the most ethnically and culturally homogeneous and still has a hell of a long way to go.

You make it sound as though being homogeneous in terms of culture and ethnicity is a bad thing. Why do you think that it's bad?

No I don't think that is necessarily bad - it just goes (obviously) someway to explaining the situation. Any culture suffering a lack of exposure to "others" is going to be insular to some degree, probably mostly depending on how grown up it otherwise happens to be. China still has a fair bit of growing up to do, though I'm sure that there are others out there who must vehemently disagree.

[daqq]

Any culture suffering a lack of exposure to "others" is going to be insular to some degree, probably mostly depending on how grown up it otherwise happens to be.

It may be the other way around - some areas of the world have been exposed enough already to different cultures, took a look and said: No, thanks, I'll keep mine.

Trying to keep your own culture intact seems a pretty 'grown up' thing to do, unlike our European initiative to shoot ourselves in the foot through the massive import of people who simply can't/won't assimilate to the local culture/customs and pretending that nothing could go wrong.

[Simon]

So yea, you damn well bet that we need tariffs where neccessary to protect local manufacturing, and politicians should stop meddling with things!

Now that's funny! You want tariffs and you want politicians to stop meddling.

Look how it's working out for America.
...

Hope you don't take offense, but your arguments sound just like what Simon Yu describes in this video...

This guy married a Taiwanese wife and adopted Western democracy. He should be banned from calling himself Chinese, which is in his YT channel banner.

I bet either he is working on political asylum green card, or is just a whiny bitch.

The west is not china, stop assuming "we" have the same attitude as china. He won't be getting any green card for whinging. Just accep that china is not perfect. Or are you an indotrinated warrio,r of your government here to change our minds? either way you won't.

[Simon]

Any culture suffering a lack of exposure to "others" is going to be insular to some degree, probably mostly depending on how grown up it otherwise happens to be.

It may be the other way around - some areas of the world have been exposed enough already to different cultures, took a look and said: No, thanks, I'll keep mine.

Trying to keep your own culture intact seems a pretty 'grown up' thing to do, unlike our European initiative to shoot ourselves in the foot through the massive import of people who simply can't/won't assimilate to the local culture/customs and pretending that nothing could go wrong.

It depends on the country and it depends on the "implanted" culture. It is possible to have reasonable integration. the problem is where people isolate themselves. I do not understand people that move to another country and insist on playing by their own rules and not mixing. But there are plenty of people that do mix. The adults mix, have mutual respect for each others cultures and don't find every excuse to be offended. The children draw lines around themselves. Isolate themselves and play the perpetual victims: both sides do it.

[windsmurf]

For those accusing China of IP theft:

http://ipcommission.org/report/

[vk6zgo]

So yea, you damn well bet that we need tariffs where neccessary to protect local manufacturing, and politicians should stop meddling with things!

Now that's funny! You want tariffs and you want politicians to stop meddling.

Look how it's working out for America.
...

Hope you don't take offense, but your arguments sound just like what Simon Yu describes in this video...

This guy married a Taiwanese wife and adopted Western democracy. He should be banned from calling himself Chinese, which is in his YT channel banner.

I bet either he is working on political asylum green card, or is just a whiny bitch.

For many years, the authorities in Taiwan believed themselves to be the legitimate Government of China.
They indeed, called themselves the "Republic of China".
The corollary of this, is that they also considered Taiwan to be part of China, as indeed, does the PRC.

Ridiculously, the UN Security seat was held by the "ROC" up until 1971, with many countries refusing to recognise the PRC as the legitimate government of China until that same year.

Australia was one of them, whilst simultaneously carrying on a brisk grain trade with that country---go figure!

All of the above means that, as far as the PRC is concerned, his "Taiwanese" wife is just as Chinese as anyone else.

Another complication is that "Chinese" is an ethnicity as well as a Nationality, so there are millions of people
who live in other countries who happily describe themselves as "Chinese".
They are not alone in this, people of Indan ethnicity who have never been  to India, also self-describe themselves as "Indian".

[MyHeadHz]

It's a miracle that he didn't get deported. FYI, even he claimed he did some criminal activities in China, mostly minor ones (like illegal employment, which he calls monkey jobs), but that should be enough if the CCP wants to find a reason to toss him in jail for a few days as a warning shot.

I feel bad for the CCP being incapable not deporting him or limiting his access to all VPNs. The CCP has capability to put someone on no VPN limitation, or even a white list-based internet access.

He, Laowhy, and similar people are "useful idiots" (a phrase borrowed from the USSR), and quite valuable at this stage.  So long as they continue to be useful to the CCP, they will be allowed a long leash.

[Simon]

Talk about politics and you get fired.

[magic]

Diversion.  Projection.  Straw men.  All you are ever going to get is an endless string of logical fallacies and gibberish until you eventually lose interest.  You erred by assuming that the goal of your partners in conversation was the same as yours- to find out the truth by applying logical rules until a clear logic-based understanding becomes clear.

Trivia: you can go to an underground neo-Nazi forum and see the exact same argument being made.

The irrational world will be watching as America goes down in flames fighting your Second Civil War in your logical quest to universal objective truth.


edit:
And by the way, didn't you Americans go to Iraq expecting that you are welcome there because some expat Saddam Hussein hater told you so? How did that affair work out for you?

Be careful trusting such people. I know very little about China, but I am inclined to believe that one leftist is hardly representative of a billion head population of a developing country. Most of them are likely even less "progressive" than your average redneck in America, and "most of a billion" is plenty enough to give you nuisance

[GK]

Any culture suffering a lack of exposure to "others" is going to be insular to some degree, probably mostly depending on how grown up it otherwise happens to be.

It may be the other way around - some areas of the world have been exposed enough already to different cultures, took a look and said: No, thanks, I'll keep mine.

Trying to keep your own culture intact seems a pretty 'grown up' thing to do, unlike our European initiative to shoot ourselves in the foot through the massive import of people who simply can't/won't assimilate to the local culture/customs and pretending that nothing could go wrong.

You are simplifying/conflating two different things. I for one am not for the terminal disease of the Left of being passive, turning a blind eye to or just denying existence of ideas that are contrary to western values of freedom/autonomy of the individual and the free exchange and debate of ideas. At the end of the day, that is pretty much at the core of all that is worth defending and aside from that I don't give a fuck what ethnicity or color or nationality you are or identify with, what you like to eat or what you like to do for leisure on the weekends.