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I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this

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IanB:
It is normally the case that a cell phone can dial 911 even if there is no active cell phone plan on that phone. It can also dial 911 if the screen is locked.

So the legal framework and manufacturers certainly do consider emergency use cases in the phone design.

As others have mentioned in this thread, the "forced update" scenario on a smartphone is very strange. Phones do not normally behave this way. Usually, they pop up a prompt saying "An update is available, do you want to install it now or later?"

It is certainly the case with Apple phones that you can defer the update indefinitely if you don't want to install it. If you reject the update prompt enough times it will stop bugging you and just leave a notification in the background that an update is available.

I imagine reputable Android phones will behave the same way, though I have no direct experience of this.

Windows 10 is a whole other matter. I dislike the fact that modern systems no longer power off when you put them in sleep mode, and I dislike the fact that a computer in sleep mode can wake up and do stuff unbidden. With a modern Windows machine you are more or less forced to shut it down and restart it between uses if you want to be confident that "off means off".

Rick Law:

--- Quote from: IanB on August 15, 2021, 07:32:10 pm ---It is normally the case that a cell phone can dial 911 even if there is no active cell phone plan on that phone. It can also dial 911 if the screen is locked.

So the legal framework and manufacturers certainly do consider emergency use cases in the phone design.

As others have mentioned in this thread, the "forced update" scenario on a smartphone is very strange. Phones do not normally behave this way. Usually, they pop up a prompt saying "An update is available, do you want to install it now or later?"

It is certainly the case with Apple phones that you can defer the update indefinitely if you don't want to install it. If you reject the update prompt enough times it will stop bugging you and just leave a notification in the background that an update is available.

I imagine reputable Android phones will behave the same way, though I have no direct experience of this.

Windows 10 is a whole other matter. I dislike the fact that modern systems no longer power off when you put them in sleep mode, and I dislike the fact that a computer in sleep mode can wake up and do stuff unbidden. With a modern Windows machine you are more or less forced to shut it down and restart it between uses if you want to be confident that "off means off".

--- End quote ---

It is a Samsung Galaxy S9.  I am not sure how to repeat it, but encountered it I did.  Possible I made a mistake there but unlikely that I did.  It is that very small possibly of mistake and the inability to repeat the situation to confirm that I was reluctant to "finger point" a brand or model as disappointment.  Besides, I think they had upgraded me from their regular cheap free phone to the S9 due to other factors (>15 year old account being one) and I don't want to appear as "looking a gift horse in the mouth" and complain about that gift-- while doing exactly that.  (My vanity at play, that is a short coming...)

I had done "factory reset" multiple times to try it with just the basic OS without update.  Typically, I skip everything I could skip after the factory-reset's reboot and reboots typically without SIM or WiFi.  On some cycles, I did tests some updates.

My theory is: EDIT--this theory is wrong, see bottom of this edited reply.

I did some update that had further effects on later reboots - such as needing further downloads (or actions) to complete an earlier updates.  It didn't tell me about the further effect, that I am sure.  I might have turned off notifications, that might have quieted the "later effects" notification.  It did not attempt to download to finish after initial or later reboots without WiFi or SIM since data-link was not available.  The "offending reboot" might have SIM inserted.  With data-link possible, that sleeping "waiting to finish" could trigger and and triggered without warning.  I am rather sure I had SIM inserted but not positive.  That it was a reboot directly into update was a certainty.

Some of the bloat-ware I tested were carrier's apps (such as the carriers' diagnostics and trouble shoot app) - they may have the ability to connect even without a SIM and pre-downloaded stuff.  While the initial test occurred many reboots ago, it might have been the first SIM inserted-reboot.  That lengthy 15 minutes "update..." and another 10+ to "optimize..."  was way too long for typical app upgrade.  That was what made me think it could have been pre-triggered updates (now with knowledge of the SIM provisions) and then a diagnostic, and the finish up by restoring connections to user-mode instead of diagnostic-mode...  But, with 30 to 40 minutes already passed in frustration, I forgot which app I was testing.  Just the frustration remained.

Just a theory.  I have no idea what actually it was.

EDIT: the theory is WRONG.

I tested my theory.  I couldn't get that to "boot directly into update" with and without SIM and each with multiple reboots.  The theory is wrong, it has nothing to do apps or SIM but with data-connection and when.

I retested with WiFi alone, only tested reboots and touched no other apps.  I learned something new:

- Immediately after factory reset and initialize (without Wifi and no SIM), an update is scheduled (a notice: "Google software updates available").
- This update will automatically start downloading when data connection becomes available. (another notice: "downloading software update, please do not leave WiFi coverage area...")
- The download will survive multiple reboots.
- On my phone, one big nearly full screen size popup some point in time: "Software update available".  When I was testing apps, I would have associated that with the app I was testing.  But this time, I was only doing reboots.
- If left alone (unrebooted) at least some (if not all) updates will complete (I noticed home screen changed after turning screen-on, but no notices on update done).

I probably got that "boot directly into update" by rebooting at a point where that auto-triggered download was ready to take over and it did.

That phone is Andriod 10, and the update was immediately post factory-reset and I assume it brought the phone to the latest.  It would be interesting to find out if future updates (not after reset) will be forced as well.

1xrtt:

--- Quote from: Rick Law on August 15, 2021, 09:23:10 pm ---It is a Samsung Galaxy S9. 

--- End quote ---

Interesting. I have a S8 and, despite the usual annoyance, doesn´t allowing me to get rid of the notification, It never forced the upgrade. OTOH, I rarely turn it off, so it´s possible that  I never triggered the same scenario as you did. Still, thanks for sharing this, it´s something worth paying attention to.

Rick Law:
I edited the last reply with a theory of how "reboot directly into update" might have happened.

After testing my theory.  The theory is wrong.  I learned something new and added the additional new info in the edits of the last reply.

ejeffrey:

--- Quote from: james_s on August 13, 2021, 08:45:29 pm ---
--- Quote from: nali on August 13, 2021, 08:06:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: Rick Law on August 13, 2021, 07:25:41 pm ---Yes, the phone has been bugging me for a while about downloading the latest version of whatever.
--- End quote ---

I think this might have a lot to do with it. When you hit the "Whatever" button (sorry I meant the "No" button) did you actually read the prompt beforehand?

And if you're relying on a smartphone to make emergency calls, why on Earth are you turning it off a.k.a hard rebooting it? If it's for saving power or stopping incoming calls then just putting it into Airplane mode and putting it into standby will be perfectly fine.

--- End quote ---

That doesn't matter. There is NO excuse for a device to force a software update and automatically take over and install it without the owner's express permission. I don't understand why so many people think this is acceptable. More and more companies are selling us the privilege of using their devices these days instead of selling us devices. If I make the choice not to update and that causes me to get hacked or not have the latest features that is MY problem.

--- End quote ---

Because if you get hacked it's not just your problem and the fact that you don't understand that is exactly why these policies exist.  It is your obligation to keep any device you connect to the public internet up to date.  If you want to run an ancient system, don't connect it to the internet, ever, at all.  If you do that, it won't automatically install updates.  I get being pissed off that the phone takes the control away, but the reason it does is because there are so many irresponsible people like you and the OP who refuse keep their software up to date despite all the opportunities to do so easily.

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