Author Topic: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this  (Read 4480 times)

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Offline Rick LawTopic starter

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This is a bit of a rant, but more so I wish manufacturers/developers of products would think about how their products are used and how the design should take that into consideration.

About a week ago, I activated a new phone, all is well...  I turned the phone off for a duration, and turned it back on to make a call.  It powered up directly into an update screen and provide no way to pause or to stop it...  Took about 20 minutes for the updates and it went directly to "optimize application" that took about another 10-20 minutes!  Between download/install/optimized, I was unable to make a call for 30-40 minutes.

For anyone who had emergencies before, 30 minutes matters a lot!

Yes, the phone has been bugging me for a while about downloading the latest version of whatever.  I answered no every time.  Still, it should not just disregard my wishes and take over control by booting directly to the update.  As I was looking at the updating phone, I was recalling the times when I had to call the police and times I had medical emergencies...  30 minutes could be the difference between life or death.  Good that I was planning on just to getting familiar with this new phone before I switch back to my flip phone.

And then of course, there are times when one merely turned the phone back on during meeting breaks to check voicemail and return urgent calls...  Can't do that either should they decided: well, we have ask you to upgrade 10 times already and you said no, so hell with you and we are just going to shove it down your throat...
 
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Offline Benta

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2021, 07:50:41 pm »
Well, you bought the phone. Apparently, you are so important that you need to be connected all the time.
Take a step back and think about rearranging your life a bit.
Private corporations do whatever they like. You support them by buying their products.
It's called "vote with your feet".
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2021, 07:53:45 pm »
This sort of thing makes my blood boil. I absolutely abhor forced updates, it is MY device and I will update it when *I* choose and on MY terms. This is NOT negotiable and trying to force me makes me furious. Imagine if your house was on fire or somebody was having a heart attack, I suppose there's probably some fine print somewhere that prevents the manufacture from being sued for wrongful death or whatever.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2021, 07:58:03 pm »
Well, you bought the phone. Apparently, you are so important that you need to be connected all the time.
Take a step back and think about rearranging your life a bit.
Private corporations do whatever they like. You support them by buying their products.
It's called "vote with your feet".

Nonsense, this is not a toy we're talking about, a phone is for many people a critical communications tool, it isn't 1988 anymore and mobile phones aren't toys for the rich, landlines are pretty much a thing of the past and people expect phones to be reliable. Somebody could easily die due to a phone not working when they need to make an emergency call, most probably would never suspect this sort of thing would happen when they bought the phone. It will be some weeks, months or even years later when a forced update takes control like this, and the behavior can change at any time on a whim. It is more and more common for a software update to make it even harder for a person to control future software updates.
 

Online nali

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2021, 08:06:53 pm »
Yes, the phone has been bugging me for a while about downloading the latest version of whatever.

I think this might have a lot to do with it. When you hit the "Whatever" button (sorry I meant the "No" button) did you actually read the prompt beforehand?

And if you're relying on a smartphone to make emergency calls, why on Earth are you turning it off a.k.a hard rebooting it? If it's for saving power or stopping incoming calls then just putting it into Airplane mode and putting it into standby will be perfectly fine.
 

Offline magic

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2021, 08:27:24 pm »
My phone hasn't received firmware updates in 15 years and I wouldn't even know how to install them off the top of my head. Because it actually is a phone...

As a general rule, I try to stay clear of products and services of Silicon Valley these days... Just a matter of personal prejudice, you know :P
 

Offline james_s

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2021, 08:45:29 pm »
Yes, the phone has been bugging me for a while about downloading the latest version of whatever.

I think this might have a lot to do with it. When you hit the "Whatever" button (sorry I meant the "No" button) did you actually read the prompt beforehand?

And if you're relying on a smartphone to make emergency calls, why on Earth are you turning it off a.k.a hard rebooting it? If it's for saving power or stopping incoming calls then just putting it into Airplane mode and putting it into standby will be perfectly fine.

That doesn't matter. There is NO excuse for a device to force a software update and automatically take over and install it without the owner's express permission. I don't understand why so many people think this is acceptable. More and more companies are selling us the privilege of using their devices these days instead of selling us devices. If I make the choice not to update and that causes me to get hacked or not have the latest features that is MY problem.
 

Offline Benta

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2021, 08:46:44 pm »
Well, you bought the phone. Apparently, you are so important that you need to be connected all the time.
Take a step back and think about rearranging your life a bit.
Private corporations do whatever they like. You support them by buying their products.
It's called "vote with your feet".

Nonsense, this is not a toy we're talking about, a phone is for many people a critical communications tool, it isn't 1988 anymore and mobile phones aren't toys for the rich, landlines are pretty much a thing of the past and people expect phones to be reliable. Somebody could easily die due to a phone not working when they need to make an emergency call, most probably would never suspect this sort of thing would happen when they bought the phone. It will be some weeks, months or even years later when a forced update takes control like this, and the behavior can change at any time on a whim. It is more and more common for a software update to make it even harder for a person to control future software updates.

Wonderful! You just supported my post in the best way.
Yes, mobile phones are the backbone of communication today. But smartphones not necessarily.

I used to have one, but discarded it. The short accumulator charge life, lousy connectivity (I'm talking telecom here, not BT or WLAN) and nagging update messages soured me.

This is what I have now: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Doro-Primo-366-2-3-Black/dp/B015CGW7CK/

With intensive use, I need to charge it once a week. If I don't use it, 2...3 weeks between charges are normal.

Yes, it's unsuitable for surfing porn or doing status updates on Facebook.

But I'll always be able to call 911/112 or whatever the call number in your country is.

 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2021, 09:53:41 pm »
I think when you have to enter your pin, there is a way to enter 911 or a dedicated button to do an emergency call.
Besides, phones are clearly not designed for us, but  14 year old chinese girls, who spend 14 hours a day watching tiktok videos.
 

Offline Rick LawTopic starter

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2021, 10:20:30 pm »
Yes, the phone has been bugging me for a while about downloading the latest version of whatever.

I think this might have a lot to do with it. When you hit the "Whatever" button (sorry I meant the "No" button) did you actually read the prompt beforehand?

And if you're relying on a smartphone to make emergency calls, why on Earth are you turning it off a.k.a hard rebooting it? If it's for saving power or stopping incoming calls then just putting it into Airplane mode and putting it into standby will be perfectly fine.

As I said in the OP "Good that I was planning on just to getting familiar with this new phone before I switch back to my flip phone...."

So, unusually, I was reading every prompt carefully to familiarize myself with this new phone.  It was booted directly into the update without any prompting.  Careless touch on a wrong prompt is extremely unlikely in this case. 

Phones are collecting too much to tell mama when it phones home.  To avoid it collecting more stuff to tell mama, I normally keep the phone off whenever I can - I have the expectation that the phone can boot and speed-dial 911/emergency-line in under a minute or so.

These days, people around are more likely to just video capture the emergency event instead of calling for help....  So may be the meaning of emergency-phone has shifted by now or soon will shift.

 

Offline IanB

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2021, 04:54:37 am »
You say in your title you wish some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this--but how do you some manufacturer doesn't?

You are using your bad experience with one phone, and then using that to complain about all phones and all manufacturers.

This seems a bit unreasonable to me. Did you research the phone before you bought it? Did you compare different models and manufacturers to find one with the best design?

I've had smart devices for years without installing updates, and never had an update forced on me. Updating older hardware to the newest OS will often consume more memory and resources, slow it down and shorten the time between charges. I tend to feel hardware works best using the software that was originally designed for it.

So I don't share your experience, because my devices have never done this to me. Don't automatically assume all manufacturers and designers are the same.
 
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Offline retiredfeline

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2021, 05:29:44 am »
What mfr and model phone have you? All the phones I owned asked before updating the kernel and definitely not on boot. Recent OS releases prep in the background and ask before going down for a minute or three for the actual update.
 
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Online nali

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2021, 10:21:16 am »
As I said in the OP "Good that I was planning on just to getting familiar with this new phone before I switch back to my flip phone...."

So, unusually, I was reading every prompt carefully to familiarize myself with this new phone.  It was booted directly into the update without any prompting.  Careless touch on a wrong prompt is extremely unlikely in this case.

Then my apologies for the implied slur :) I would expect an upgrade to be part of the process for any new smartphone, and a reboot to be part of that process - possibly more than one depending on how up to date the factory build was.

My wife is definately one for clicking/tapping without looking... more than once we've had a conversation something like "Why is it doing this?" "What did you just click?" "Don't know didn't read it I just wanted to read this message first".
 

Online nali

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2021, 10:31:24 am »
These days, people around are more likely to just video capture the emergency event instead of calling for help....  So may be the meaning of emergency-phone has shifted by now or soon will shift.

You're right there; "Smartphone" is becoming a bit of a misnomer now as the "phone" part is becoming very much secondary. Yes, it's not 1988 anymore and they are more mobile computers that can also do calls.

There was a recent case of a young lad who got stabbed in London. What did he do - call for an ambulance? No, he Facetimed his mum who had to work out where he was and she then called the emergency services who managed to get there in time to save him. Maybe I'm just getting old but  :wtf:
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2021, 10:40:02 am »
This is a bit of a rant, but more so I wish manufacturers/developers of products would think about how their products are used and how the design should take that into consideration.

About a week ago, I activated a new phone, all is well...  I turned the phone off for a duration, and turned it back on to make a call.  It powered up directly into an update screen and provide no way to pause or to stop it...  Took about 20 minutes for the updates and it went directly to "optimize application" that took about another 10-20 minutes!  Between download/install/optimized, I was unable to make a call for 30-40 minutes.

...

Some do understand - my iPhone 6s has never done that a single time. Come to think of it, no iPhone I've had has ever done that. :-//
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Offline austfox

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2021, 11:05:51 am »
How would the OP research the phone before purchase? I can’t recall any specifications that state ‘if you don’t update the firmware after 10 prompts we will automatically do it for you’.

Sure, you could read private reviews, but many times these are hit and miss.
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2021, 01:49:52 pm »
I hate the phone ecosystem in general.  I wish they made phones that were simply a basic device running Linux to make phone calls, text, and take pictures.  Get rid of all the other crap, but if I want to, let me install regular Linux packages. 

Dumb phones are the closest thing but they suck to use due to lack of full keyboard, and the cameras on them are usually very lacking.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2021, 05:24:24 pm »
These days, people around are more likely to just video capture the emergency event instead of calling for help....  So may be the meaning of emergency-phone has shifted by now or soon will shift.

You're right there; "Smartphone" is becoming a bit of a misnomer now as the "phone" part is becoming very much secondary. Yes, it's not 1988 anymore and they are more mobile computers that can also do calls.

There was a recent case of a young lad who got stabbed in London. What did he do - call for an ambulance? No, he Facetimed his mum who had to work out where he was and she then called the emergency services who managed to get there in time to save him. Maybe I'm just getting old but  :wtf:

Below a certain age "get mum" is the normal reaction in dire circumstances, it's not unnatural at all. It may not have been the optimum response, but it's quite understandable. Most men don't truly accept their own mortality until they are 35 or so, if you're truly young it's probably inconceivable that mum won't be able to fix it, she has every time you've needed her to so far.
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2021, 05:35:13 pm »
This is a bit of a rant, but more so I wish manufacturers/developers of products would think about how their products are used and how the design should take that into consideration.

About a week ago, I activated a new phone, all is well...  I turned the phone off for a duration, and turned it back on to make a call.  It powered up directly into an update screen and provide no way to pause or to stop it...  Took about 20 minutes for the updates and it went directly to "optimize application" that took about another 10-20 minutes!  Between download/install/optimized, I was unable to make a call for 30-40 minutes.

...

Some do understand - my iPhone 6s has never done that a single time. Come to think of it, no iPhone I've had has ever done that. :-//

Indeed, we have iPhones here and they never force an update. If you have auto updates turned on, they tell you that they'll update overnight when the phone is plugged into a charger. If auto-update is disabled, then you'll see a notification that an update is available but it will not start the update process until you explicitly allow it.

I wonder why Rick didn't tell us which phone model by which manufacturer is causing him such trouble?

I also don't understand his use case -- powering the phone down completely except when he needs to make a call. Nobody does that. The devices really aren't meant to be used in that manner. If you don't want the phone to ring during that all-important meeting, flick the switch to put it in silent mode. Or enable the "Do not disturb" feature.

Comments in this thread like how "smartphones are only used by Chinese girls who spend 14 hours a day watching tiktok videos" veer off right into "OK, Boomer!" territory, with a dash of racism added. If you don't see a use case for the devices, that doesn't mean nobody has a use for the devices.

As for the kid in London who Facetimed his mother instead of calling for an ambulance: that's not the phone's fault. On the iPhone lock screen lower left corner is the word "emergency." Tap that and it calls the emergency services. It's possible that nobody taught the kid that 911 (or whatever they're called in England) services exist. I'd say that the kid was pretty smart -- he was attacked and he still managed to hold it together enough to call someone! And if he was able to use the "send location" feature to let his mother know exactly where he was on the map, even better.
 

Online nali

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2021, 05:46:22 pm »
OK just for clarification the facetime lad was 16. I'm not going to link the article because it's largely irrelevent but the point I was making (perhaps not very well) was that actual 'phone calls are becoming pretty much secondary these days.
 

Offline Rick LawTopic starter

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2021, 06:02:11 pm »
You say in your title you wish some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this--but how do you some manufacturer doesn't?

You are using your bad experience with one phone, and then using that to complain about all phones and all manufacturers.

This seems a bit unreasonable to me.
Did you research the phone before you bought it? Did you compare different models and manufacturers to find one with the best design?
...

[RL: bold added to quote]

Yeah, you are right!  It is a bit unreasonable to paint with such wide brush.  Bit of a rant there actually.

The phone was not purchased.  I've been a long time customer, the account is so old (> 10 years) it was a grand-fathered account with plans that you can't buy anymore.  They send me new phones for free to aid me in my transition as they kill 3G.

It is probably unsold stock (0% battery remained when received) but it is actually a rather nice looking sleek phone.  I rather like it but for the software bloat and lack of user-control.  It is a waste on me.  Someone who likes to be net-enabled everywhere one goes would probably rather like it.  Heck, it actually made me think about a phone-plan upgrade...

...
Then my apologies for the implied slur :) I would expect an upgrade to be part of the process for any new smartphone, and a reboot to be part of that process - possibly more than one depending on how up to date the factory build was.

My wife is definately one for clicking/tapping without looking...
...

No harm done.  It is unusual for me to be extra careful and read every prompt wearing my reading glasses.    Beside, who is to say I actually didn't make a mistake.  Certainly could have happened there.

* I never made mistakes, one time I thought I did but I was wrong... *

How would the OP research the phone before purchase? I can’t recall any specifications that state ‘if you don’t update the firmware after 10 prompts we will automatically do it for you’.

Sure, you could read private reviews, but many times these are hit and miss.

Yup, if "...after 10 prompts we will automatically do it for you..." is embedded in a paragraph in one of the end-user agreements instead of a prompt, I might have missed it.

 

Offline Rick LawTopic starter

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2021, 07:39:24 pm »
These days, people around are more likely to just video capture the emergency event instead of calling for help....  So may be the meaning of emergency-phone has shifted by now or soon will shift.

You're right there; "Smartphone" is becoming a bit of a misnomer now as the "phone" part is becoming very much secondary. Yes, it's not 1988 anymore and they are more mobile computers that can also do calls.

There was a recent case of a young lad who got stabbed in London. What did he do - call for an ambulance? No, he Facetimed his mum who had to work out where he was and she then called the emergency services who managed to get there in time to save him. Maybe I'm just getting old but  :wtf:

After one faced a real medical emergency, one's perspective changes...

One danger is: when one is hurt, one may not be in a good enough mental condition to understand the nature of the emergency.  Particularly when the emergency involves blood lost or anything else that may impact mental acuity.

Normally, I rather not get so personal.  I had my reservations about putting this in a public forum, but I rather fellow forum members not to have to face such "excitement" and also be aware how ones judgement can be impaired when one is in poor physical condition before having to face it.

One time, I made my wife go to the emergency room.  She had out-patient tumor surgery earlier that day.   I was not seeing what they told me to expect.  By late evening,  I begun taking photo's to measure progress/deterioration.  By late night, I was alarmed but she thought she was ok and just wanted to go to bed.  Reviewing the pictures I took,  I know she may be in more danger than she thinks, so I argue with her into submission.  We got into the car and drove.  I did not call emergency because I believed the time it took for the ambulance to pick her up and get back would have taken too much time.

All along the way to the emergency, I was thinking, there would be hell to pay if she was indeed AOK and I just made her go in the middle of the night.

She was well enough to walk in.  After vital check in the emergency room, the medical tech reached for a big red alarm button on the wall.  As the alarm started blasting, she got on her walkie-talkie and said something as she wheeled my wife into what they called the "resuscitation room" -- perhaps expecting she would need that any moment...   It took a few hours to stabilize her and emergency surgery the following morning.  She needed a couple more days in the hospital before she was well enough to be released.

My wife saw those photos I took that night a month or so later.  She was shock that she refused to go to the emergency that night.  That really strikes me how blood lost can impair a person's judgement.  That "night at the emergency" seer into my memory very deep.

It was that night I was thinking of when my phone was "upgrading..."

« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 07:43:25 pm by Rick Law »
 
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Offline AaronD

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2021, 08:14:19 pm »
This is the first time I've seen "the forced-update problem" in the context of a possible medical emergency.  But of course, personally not seeing it doesn't mean that it never happens.

My common experience is with Windoze machines that are only ever on when they're used for something critical (projecting lyrics in a church service, for example), and they force an update then.  My standard answer to that is, "MAINTAIN YOUR STUFF!!!!  If you don't schedule maintenance on your time, then the machine will schedule it for you on *its* time."

Practically, that means intentionally accepting updates when you know you won't need the device, so that it doesn't force them later when you do need it.  And then check things afterwards to make sure they still work and there aren't any new surprises.  Get familiar and comfortable with exploring the settings - ALL of them - so that you can both turn off every bit of tracking (which itself requires some thinking to see that a description of disabling an attractive feature actually means "enable tracking" because of how that feature works) and explore them again after a "feature update" to see what's new or reset.

It's illegal in most places to force tracking, but it's apparently okay to have it on by default and to deceive/manipulate users into keeping it that way.  Again, explore the settings and turn it all off bit by bit, and then it won't.

Then you can leave it powered on and connected to the network, and the only tracking that can be done is which tower you're connected to at the moment.  (the network itself needs that, so it doesn't search the entire world when someone calls you)  When you actually need it, the 100% CPU load from startup is long gone.
 

Offline m98

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2021, 09:03:07 pm »
Every smartphone is a personal computer with an internet connection in disguise. Treat it as such. If you don't, the manufacturer needs to do your homework in order to prevent your device becoming part of a botnet and actually harming others, or criminals stealing your identity or emptying your bank account. Forced updates are absolutely necessary from an IT security perspective.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: I hope some smart phone manufacturer/designer would understand this
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2021, 12:09:47 am »
My common experience is with Windoze machines that are only ever on when they're used for something critical (projecting lyrics in a church service, for example), and they force an update then.  My standard answer to that is, "MAINTAIN YOUR STUFF!!!!  If you don't schedule maintenance on your time, then the machine will schedule it for you on *its* time."
There would be far less backlash if they do it the Linux way - get most of the updating done in the background so it's a very quick reboot to finish. Or if a machine is only used occasionally, apply the updates the next time it is shut down.

As for Android phones, one that supports LineageOS would give you the option to eliminate the junk and just have an OS that works.
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