Author Topic: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning  (Read 34654 times)

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Offline dannyf

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2014, 12:38:15 am »
Quote
I've just found this thread about people who admit to being ripped off by these charlatans.

So, we should trust their hearing / judgment when they said they didn't hear things, but not their hearing / judgment when they said they did hear things?

Sounds a little selective to me.
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Offline nitro2k01

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2014, 02:21:42 am »
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problem in CD playback produced by invisible, infrared scattered laser light inside the transport compartment.

Let's take the above statement for example. Which part(s) of the above statement doesn't exist / "in order to make money"? or both / or neither?
Normally, the burden of proof is on the one making a claim. Instead, the standard you're using is that the person making a claim is right until proven wrong.  :palm: This is also a common tactic used by religious people. (But you can't PROVE that god doesn't exist!)

This guy has not at all demonstrated that the problem exists. Zip. Nada. He could have made two recordings of a CD with and without his gunk on the CD and compared the waveforms. He could have opened up a drive compartment and demonstrated that the inside of the drive compartment reflects IR light instead of absorbing it thus making at least some claim of plausibility, even if not outright proving the point. (Of course, the inside of the compartment is indeed likely black even to near IR, so this product is a moot point anyway.)

As it is now, they're making no claims of an actual problem, and no claims that the product will actually improve the audio. Ie, they're selling a product with no effect demonstrated on the audio. When people here have mentioned the Blue Meanies communicating with the mind through mind matter interaction, the pebble bags for putting on cables, and Shakti stones that are claimed to increase the horsepowers of a car (!) you promptly ignore them. You seem to like this particular product, though, the CD gunk. It's perfect for your argument because it offers a sort of "plausible deniability". Since all that is claimed is that it will block IR, not improve the sound, you can keep beating the "false pretence" dead horse. See, no false pretence, eh, eh! The challenge I have for you, dannyf, is to explain, given a typical CD player, by what mechanism this product will have any effect whatsoever on the signal coming out on the back of the CD player. You won't be able to, of course, because the only positive claim you can make about the product is to keep saying that it's technically not a fraud, since no false claims were made.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 02:33:04 am by nitro2k01 »
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Offline nitro2k01

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #102 on: October 05, 2014, 02:23:04 am »
Quote
I've just found this thread about people who admit to being ripped off by these charlatans.

So, we should trust their hearing / judgment when they said they didn't hear things, but not their hearing / judgment when they said they did hear things?

Sounds a little selective to me.
The only selection being made there is that one can be demonstrated in a double blind test and the other one can't.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 02:25:35 am by nitro2k01 »
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Offline mrflibble

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #103 on: October 05, 2014, 03:00:36 am »
Normally, the burden of proof is on the one making a claim. Instead, the standard you're using is that the person making a claim is right until proven wrong.  :palm: This is also a common tactic used by religious people. (But you can't PROVE that god doesn't exist!)
It's also a common  tactic used by trolls on them interwebs. Up to you to decide if you consider dannyf a worthwhile debating partner, or a waste of time. :)
 

Offline sunnyhighway

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #104 on: October 05, 2014, 09:14:25 am »
Some of their claims do seem to hold water.

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They are very appealing to the eye and you will hear a better focus and blacker background
Remember: beauty is in the eye of the beholder.



Quote
There is no practical excuse for not isolating & elevating your cables off the floor.
I can see some benefit in the cables not lying flat on the floor while cleaning with a vacuum cleaner.



Personally I would use some of these as they do a much better job on the elevating your cables and appealing to the eye part.

 

Online Zero999

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #105 on: October 05, 2014, 10:43:41 am »
Some of their claims do seem to hold water.
Yes, I have no problem with them selling such products because they believe they look good or as a means of cable management, as long as they're honest about the fact it's all their product does and don't make any false claims about it improving the signal quality or fidelity.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #106 on: October 05, 2014, 11:40:56 pm »
You have to understand that the world is far more complex than we will ever comprehend, or science will ever be able to explain. Rejecting a view/ observation/theory because it is inconsistent with today's scientific understanding is itself unscientific.


The above statement is untrue and misrepresents the scientific method.  First of all, a view, observation and a theory are all very different things.  A view isn't a scientific concept at all.  An observation is something noted during an experiment.  And a theory is a well established concept that is backed up by significant experimental data.  These shysters selling snake oil do not have observations or theories.  They may have "views", but that is another word for opinion.  And discounting an opinion because it doesn't agree with current scientific understand is very much what science is all about. 

Regarding the "Dark Matter" stuff.  The creators of the product make multiple claims.  Among them:

"address the problem in CD playback produced by invisible, infrared scattered laser light inside the transport compartment"

They claim a problem exists.  Yet they have not demonstrated what that problem is or how it manifests.

The next claim "absorbs background scattered infrared light that could otherwise make its way into the photodetector as noise".   This claim is easily testable.

They also claim " The reason background scattered light, whether visible red or infrared, degrades the sound is because some of the scattered light makes its way into the photodetector where it is misinterpreted as real signal".  This too is testable.

They also claim "Coloring CDs improves the sound because colors, especially green and blue-green (red's complement) affect the visible red color portion of the scattered laser light".  This is patently false.



As someone mentioned previously, the person making a positive claim has the burden of proof.  Stating "well, can you prove it's not true?" is an argument from ignorance, and a logical fallacy.  A negative can't be proven, but even lack of evidence against a claim does not support the claim being true.  It's the same as a religious zealot saying "how do you know faith healing doesn't work?  Can you prove it?" - as if lack of proof against it proves that it's true.

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Offline Corporate666

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #107 on: October 05, 2014, 11:50:40 pm »
It is irrelevant until and unless it substantiates the two assertions of such products are sold under "completely false pretences" and their performance cannot be achieved.

I remember sitting outside a court room years ago, waiting for my hearing to try to get out of a speeding ticket I had received.  There were a lot of people there waiting for same.  All were chatting among each other, and there were lots of people coming up with arguments they felt would hold water because they could not be absolutely debunked.  Like... "how does the cop KNOW that he got me and not the car next to me on the radar?" or "how does he KNOW I was going 75 when he paced me and not 74, or 76... or 65?".  All of these people quickly realized that their circuitous logic did them no good when they learned the standard was not "absolute irrefutable proof" but "preponderence of evidence".

The products sold make claims that are unsubstantiated.  I am no expert on consumer law, but I believe doing so is illegal.  Certainly the FDA and other consumer protection agencies often go after companies doing same for weight loss pills and the like.  This is no different.

Quote
Morality is what civilized people use to constrain their own behaviors, not other people's behaviors. While I don't do anything I consider immoral, you are free to do any and all that I consider immoral.

It is only immoral if you attempt to nullify two free persons' transactions on the basis of your own morality.

That is untrue. 

Is it immoral to intervene between a man paying for sex from a 13 year old?  Is is immoral to stop a shyster selling vinyl siding to the elderly at a 500% markup using fraudulent sales techniques?  Selling these products falls into the same category.  It is not an honest transaction because the seller has misrepresented what the product does, therefore the buyer is being lured into the sale under false pretenses. 

It's no different than selling iPad boxes with LED keychain lights inside.  You say "Hey I got some really cool electronics for sale cheap!".  Show them the box... when they say "wow, an iPad for only $200?" and you reply "that's what is says right there on the box!".  An immoral person can claim they haven't lied, but it's still fraud because technicalities don't matter when it comes to law.
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n45048

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2014, 07:51:24 am »
Here's a new one. I mean, I've read people being this deluded on the internet, but never thought one of my own friends would believe the marketing hype!

Just yesterday a friend of mine (who is normally quite intelligent) showed me a power cable for one of his high-end amps. It was about 80cm long, featured a standard 10 amp Clipsal plug on one end and IEC on the other. The cable was about 1cm in diameter, I mean huge compared to your regular appliance lead. I questioned him about it as it was pretty bulky and stiff.

His explanation was that it provides "cleaner" power to the amp, furthermore, high-end amps really benefit from this "cleaner" power.  |O

Honestly? Who comes up with this stuff? They must be the worlds biggest douche bags. I mean, I get that it might have some extra shielding to protect adjacent cables (audio leads?) from AC noise (...or something... I'm really reaching here...) but seriously?

I didn't dare ask how much it cost (I suspect it was three figures), I was too busy trying not to laugh out loud.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 07:54:02 am by n45048 »
 

Offline VK5RC

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2014, 10:59:42 am »
The best cons are ones with a grain of truth; when I transmit on the 7MHz amateur radio band, my sensor lights flicker on and off. My emissions meet ACMA guidelines for power levels, spurii  and harmonics. I suspect the wiring acting as an antenna and the sensor light not being resistant to RF.
I have heard quite a few amplifiers can be quite sensitive to RF going back up the speaker cable, more so than going in via the mains.
@n45048 I suspect your friend would have been better off with a good IEC socket with RF filter that can be purchased for low 2 figures.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #110 on: October 06, 2014, 12:47:32 pm »
I have heard quite a few amplifiers can be quite sensitive to RF going back up the speaker cable, more so than going in via the mains.
The modern digital ones will have a LC filter right at the output, more for keeping EMI from going out rather than coming in. The joke is now on the misguided audiofools who are under the impression that digital can't be good...
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Offline timb

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2014, 11:03:12 pm »
The best ones are the guys who buy three figure USB cables and rave about how much better the sound is. I've tried arguing with a few, but it's pointless.

I'm like, USB is a balanced digital interface that runs orders of magnitude faster than the 44kHz signal being output from the DAC.


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Offline zapta

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #112 on: October 09, 2014, 05:11:03 pm »
I met yesterday with an audiophile in a social situation. He told me that he can easily distinguish by listening only if his system has a simple power cable or a $30 one. I offered him to make a blind experiment. His concern was that me changing power cables in his system will damage it, but eventually he agreed, kind of. If he will pass I will be very impressed but if he will fail I will feel sorry for bursting his bubble.

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Offline Excavatoree

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #113 on: October 09, 2014, 06:16:00 pm »
For the sake of argument, suppose that the expensive power cables really do have better characteristics that do matter.  How can that last 1-3 meters of optimal cable overcome the negative effects of the several more meters of house wiring, one's distribution panel, one's power meter, the utility lines to the transformer, the transformer itself, and the miles of distribution lines?

Or, do i need to contract with a local wire company to surround ordinary NM-12G Cable with some exotic sounding material and charge hundreds of dollars per meter for it?    I could get receptacles and circuit breakers cry-treated and sell them for hundreds.   The only problem would be looking at myself to shave.   I have seen an E-bay seller selling a $1 US receptacle for $100 US because it has been cooled for a bit.  Seems like easy money.

I'll become a dealer for these:
http://www.fullscaleav.com/transparenator.html
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 06:18:05 pm by Excavatoree »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #114 on: October 09, 2014, 06:32:31 pm »
Plug it into a quality UPS.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #115 on: October 09, 2014, 06:41:52 pm »
Preferably a dual conversion ferroresonant one, with a ultra low distortion sinewave output.
 

n45048

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2014, 08:07:37 am »
I have to say, I was disappointed in 2GB earlier in the week (no political puns please).

One of the less popular presenters along with a "technology expert" talked about expensive HDMI cables and the differences when compared to cheaper ones. But when they invited the CEO of Monster Cables to talk about their product I realised it was basically a sales pitch for Monster's overpriced cables.

Their words were chosen very carefully but many leading questions were asked, for example: So why should consumers choose a Monster HDMI cable over a cheap $2.50 job? They also allegedly had a $500,000 machine which would simply test the Bit Error Rate over different HDMI leads.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #117 on: October 25, 2014, 12:48:52 pm »
Not sure it's worth necromancing the thread for this. Hopefully it's amusing.
An ebay .au listing for a $140 "MS Audio OCC Single Crystal Copper Power Cord Australia Type"  aka IEC mains cord. Item # 301348645908

I couldn't make this shit up. But they can:

Quote
Features of this OCC power cord:
1. SUMITOMO OCC (single crystal/long crystal copper) copper conductor. Real certified SUMITOMO OCC copper used, not counterfeit cheap copper. Last photo on this listing is certification document offered by SUMITOMO METALS.  We offer full legal liability for the quality of our product.   
2. 3-layers of damping were deployed to isolate any possible vibration.
3. EMI insulation by outmost aluminum plated copper braid to isolate any crosstalk and interference.
4. Valab custom ordered audio grade Carbon housing rose gold plated pure copper plug are used is this power cord.
5. Technique Specification
Resistance   Max voltage   Insulation   Max Current
0.0280 ?/m   2000 ACV/1min   400M?/km   30A

How it sound? This OCC power cord deliver warm and very transparent sound. If you felt your audio system sound too harsh or too analytical, this power cord will be good solution to trun your system to be natural and musical.

I like how they quote '30A' never mind that it's a 10A plug.
"Aluminum plated copper braid" - Really?
"good solution to trun your system"   It's their typo, not mine. A final touch of comedy in this farce.
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2014, 04:04:00 am »
Here's a new one. I mean, I've read people being this deluded on the internet, but never thought one of my own friends would believe the marketing hype!

Just yesterday a friend of mine (who is normally quite intelligent) showed me a power cable for one of his high-end amps. It was about 80cm long, featured a standard 10 amp Clipsal plug on one end and IEC on the other. The cable was about 1cm in diameter, I mean huge compared to your regular appliance lead. I questioned him about it as it was pretty bulky and stiff.

His explanation was that it provides "cleaner" power to the amp, furthermore, high-end amps really benefit from this "cleaner" power.  |O

Honestly? Who comes up with this stuff? They must be the worlds biggest douche bags. I mean, I get that it might have some extra shielding to protect adjacent cables (audio leads?) from AC noise (...or something... I'm really reaching here...) but seriously?

I didn't dare ask how much it cost (I suspect it was three figures), I was too busy trying not to laugh out loud.

Just ask him how the middle 12 feet of wire has an effect in the many hundreds of feet in the loop of wires and terminals between his power transformer and the pig pole outside his house...
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n45048

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #119 on: October 27, 2014, 05:49:55 am »
Just ask him how the middle 12 feet of wire has an effect in the many hundreds of feet in the loop of wires and terminals between his power transformer and the pig pole outside his house...
Oh I did. Didn't really get an answer nor did I expect one. It's the case with these people (as many have mentioned in the past) you can even show them tested, verifiable proof that it's all bollocks but they refuse to take it on-board.
 

Offline TMM

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #120 on: October 27, 2014, 11:30:36 am »
Just ask him how the middle 12 feet of wire has an effect in the many hundreds of feet in the loop of wires and terminals between his power transformer and the pig pole outside his house...
Oh I did. Didn't really get an answer nor did I expect one. It's the case with these people (as many have mentioned in the past) you can even show them tested, verifiable proof that it's all bollocks but they refuse to take it on-board.
That's because after spending their hard earned on their ultra-sq-unobtainium-impregnated-silver cable of course they will hear an improvement, otherwise they would be a fool. No one likes being a fool. It's more convenient for them to convince themselves that they can hear an improvement and there must be a parameter that cannot be scientifically measured, than to accept that they have been ripped off.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 11:33:02 am by TMM »
 

n45048

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #121 on: October 27, 2014, 11:37:13 am »
That's because after spending their hard earned on their ultra-sq-unobtainium-impregnated-silver cable of course they will hear an improvement, otherwise they would be a fool. No one likes being a fool. It's more convenient for them to convince themselves that they can hear an improvement and there must be a parameter that cannot be scientifically measured, than to accept that they have been ripped off.

Very true. The only way I'll ever know if I got through to him is if one day he comes to me and asks for my advice.  8)
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2014, 03:32:28 pm »
That's because after spending their hard earned on their ultra-sq-unobtainium-impregnated-silver cable of course they will hear an improvement, otherwise they would be a fool. No one likes being a fool. It's more convenient for them to convince themselves that they can hear an improvement and there must be a parameter that cannot be scientifically measured, than to accept that they have been ripped off.

It's called Confirmation Bias.
It would be an interesting exercise to somehow get an audiofool to read through the Wiki list of cognitive biases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
Audiofoolery seems to combine multiples of these. I wonder if such people could recognize their own thinking defects in this list? I somehow doubt it.

Btw, someone I know recently mentioned they have one old WE 300B triode valve, and some audiofool is after them to sell it for... wait for it... $1500.  A small, old valve. Because it's 'special'.
This amazing information led me to here: http://yklee118.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/does-using-western-electric-vacuum.html?view=classic

That whole web site is dedicated to such stupidity.

Somewhere I have some big boxes of old valves. Maybe I should dig them out and see if there are any sought after by audiofools.
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Offline joshhunsaker

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2014, 04:10:48 pm »
Somewhere I have some big boxes of old valves. Maybe I should dig them out and see if there are any sought after by audiofools.

The stupid thing would be waiting to sell them.  You're sitting on a gold-mine if you've got original WE300b tubes in anywhere near decent condition...
 

Offline Phaedrus

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2014, 06:28:46 pm »
Somewhere I have some big boxes of old valves. Maybe I should dig them out and see if there are any sought after by audiofools.

The stupid thing would be waiting to sell them.  You're sitting on a gold-mine if you've got original WE300b tubes in anywhere near decent condition...

The smartest thing he could do is wait to sell them. Tubes break and go bad, so the supply dwindles over time. As long as it stays a sought after item in the audiophool world the value can only go up.


Also,
Quote
the linear nature of the structure of the tube allows for a smoother delivery of audio notes thus creating the impression of the a live sound-stage presence.

Ow, my brain  :bullshit:
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 06:30:30 pm by Phaedrus »
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