Author Topic: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning  (Read 34665 times)

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Offline electrophiliate

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2014, 01:49:19 am »
As the saying goes, a fool and their money are soon parted. But do citizens have a right to scam and fleece others in the name of market forces? I guess free-market proponents (a few of which lack scruples and are involved in the scamming/fleecing) would be against any sort of regulation or intervention for audiophoolery?

While I agree there is probably more to physics and biology than we currently know, that probability is often used to justify bullshit and is unimportant if specific claims can already be tested. Technical claims can be tested with instruments, and subjective claims can be tested in blind trials that account for any environmental nuances and 'white-coat anxiety'.

This issue sort of reminds me of the health supplement industry, rolling in money but apparently reluctant to conduct decent controlled trials to demonstrate efficacy of the hyped products. So when will Monster et al. be conducting such trials for their products to justify the hype? As someone else suggested earlier, products identified as audiophoolery tend to be well-made, so the focus should be the quality and durability of the product rather than how much better it allegedly sounds.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_%28company%29#Pricing_and_performance_questions

Pricing and performance questions

Many audiophiles[44] and reporters[45][46] disagree on whether more expensive cables have an effect on audio quality.[44][47] In 1980 Speaker Builder said that Monster audio cables were "a reasonable investment" and that they out-perform generic 24- or 18- gauge cables.[48] Tests by Stereo Review Magazine in 1983 concluded that Monster cables did not make a difference in the sound and were "indistinguishable" from 16-gauge lamp cord.[49] Smaller gauge numbers equate to larger wire, so this is a comparison to heavier (16 gauge) wire than 18 or 24 gauge speaker wires. The same publication in 1990 said that whether the cables are worth it depends on the application and the user's willingness to pay a premium.[49] The Anstendig Institute did a year-long study in 1996 and found that more expensive Monster cables made a difference in "the most important aspect of sound, especially for music, the expressive nuances."[47]

Whether someone can hear the difference varies from person-to-person.[47][50] Many reporters and audiophiles have done double-blind a/b listening tests and are unable to hear the difference.[47] The New York Times and PC World have reported not hearing a difference in the sound,[45][46] while USA Today said Monster had "a slight edge."[44] According to The Anstendig Institute, listeners may have a better experience with the music, even if they cannot consciously tell the difference.[47] According to PC Magazine, Monster is "often accused of selling over-priced cables that you can buy elsewhere for a fraction of the price."[32]

Gizmodo tested Monster-branded HDMI cables and compared them to generic cables using a Digital Serial Analyzer. They found that the cables performed relatively equally over a short distance of 6 feet (1.8 m), but inexpensive cables experienced distortion when ran over longer distances.[51] WIRED also said Monster's HDMI cables made a difference over 10-metre (33 ft) distances, but that, "with Monster, you pay a staggering premium for durability and good looks."[52] In tests by PC World, Monster's M500CV video cables had the least distortion out of all the cables tested, being within 1 ohm of the standard 75 ohm impedance.[46]

Monster CEO Noel Lee claims the average consumer may not be able to tell the difference on-screen, but that Monster's video cables have higher bandwidth, are future-proofed, are more durable and that they perform better over long distances.[53] Many reviewers stress in-turn that Monster cables are not needed for lower-resolution televisions[54] or over short distances[55] and that the difference in audio quality is not substantial enough.[56]
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 03:34:02 am by electrophiliate »
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Offline dannyf

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2014, 02:12:07 am »
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This makes very little sense.

Not sure which is your "this".

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Outright lies? Not sure.

Well, the assertion is that

1) their claims are "completely false pretences"; and
2) it cannot be achieved.

Sounds like you aren't sure that neither accurately discribe the claims?

I think we are in agreement there.

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Filled with weasel words for luring people who are illiterate about these things? Certainly.

What's "weasel" is highly subjective. so we should skip that one.

To lure someone, you need to have an intent. How do you know that they have the intent?
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Offline nitro2k01

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2014, 02:30:43 am »
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This makes very little sense.

Not sure which is your "this".
Please refer to the quote from their page, which you removed the quote, and the following part of my post, which you removed from the quote.

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Outright lies? Not sure.
Well, the assertion is that

1) their claims are "completely false pretences"; and
2) it cannot be achieved.

Sounds like you aren't sure that neither accurately discribe the claims?

I think we are in agreement there.
I put forth a bit of a different proposition. "The best way of being a charlatan is to invent a problem that doesn't exist, so you can say that you technically didn't lie, upon scrutiny." What I will say about that product is that they have failed to present evidence that the problem they're claiming to solve even exists.

But let's look at the other example of the "Blue Meanie" stickers, described as such: "Codename Blue Meanies operates via mind matter-interaction. The subconscious mind interacts with room boundaries..."
This is grade A religious bullshit, that is best described by the phrase "you're not even wrong". It's a claim so devoid of substance that it cannot even be proven or disproven, and is thus meaningless.

A fool and their money are indeed soon parted. The difference is whether you glorify this, for example per free market capitalist first principles, or if you find it immoral.

To lure someone, you need to have an intent. How do you know that they have the intent?
I concede that I cannot not know for certain that they are not incompetent and mentally ill.
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Offline bob808

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2014, 02:33:55 am »
I'm amazed that you still reply on this matter. You are beating a dead horse. It's stupid, stop it. Those claims are border line legal. The act itself of carefully controlling the (fictive) words used in the claims is pure evil, made for manipulating. That is the lowest type of commerce. Advocating further in any way shape or form is questionable.


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Offline miguelvp

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #79 on: October 04, 2014, 02:37:11 am »
I just don't believe you are defending the poor victims that spend hundreds of thousands in audio equipment and you feel you are superior to them because you see what it's wrong with them.

What makes you superior to them? when they are the ones with the disposable income in such quantities that might be totally foreign to your comprehension?

Why will anyone buy an Armani suit, or a Gucci purse, or get a very expensive haircut or whatever?

When is the last time you contemplated in purchasing a $5 million painting?

What is snake oil to you, it's a conversation piece to them.

At the same level, the energy and time spent on this thread could probably have feed an starving family for over a month.

I think you guys are defending the wrong income bracket.

 

Offline Rufus

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2014, 03:07:34 am »
I think you guys are defending the wrong income bracket.

You don't need to be in a high income bracket to spend $20 on some green crap to spray on your CDs or to spend $200 on a blueray player and have some dishonest sales droid tell you the picture will be crap if you don't spend another $65 on a gold plated HDMI cable.

Of course we are more likely to comment on ridiculously expensive snake oil but the rich are not the only customers for snake oil.
 
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Offline c4757p

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2014, 04:14:07 am »
Why will anyone buy an Armani suit, or a Gucci purse, or get a very expensive haircut or whatever?

When is the last time you contemplated in purchasing a $5 million painting?

What is snake oil to you, it's a conversation piece to them.

Conversation piece, my ass. Spending money entirely for the sake of being able to show that you earned it in the first place - is there even a better definition of either waste or vanity?
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2014, 05:41:06 am »
And you don't do that in perspective to people less fortunate than you? Maybe you don't waste or ever bought a thing that you really didn't need.

Or is it better for them to keep all their money and don't spread it around?

Vanity is a perception as well, social circles or feeling like a million bucks, empowering yourself, whatever. People in Europe in general buy brand name clothes at pretty high prices, I'm happy with cheap jeans, t-shirt and cheap sneakers not those brand Nike air crap that don't last anyways.

People buying the lastest up to date phones or changing cars often. Complaining about the new IPhone 6 bending, meh it's pretty crappy but keeps the economy moving.
 

Offline bob808

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #83 on: October 04, 2014, 10:35:52 am »
I agree there might be a different cultural perspective between us and hence the current dialog.
And I am not superior to them. It's just that I see people like you and dannyf that have no morals whatsoever when it comes to money. And please, don't give me that Robin Hood attitude.
Have a read:
http://www.forbes.com/2005/12/15/expensive-stereo-technology-cz_dl_1216feat_ls.html
Here's a quote:
"But for music connoisseurs, comparing a glorified boombox with state-of-the-art audio equipment is like saying that it’s just as much fun to drive a $22,000 Pontiac Grand Am as it is a $200,000 Ferrari F430. The two cars fulfill the same basic function, but the Ferrari does it on such an infinitely higher level of performance and craftsmanship as to render all comparisons absurd."

Do you understand the difference? It's not a Pontiac with silver all over and stuffed with tech that science could not ever explain. They actually pay for something, there is some work to be appreciated in that Ferrari. Same goes for a single ended tube amplifier that has it's output transformers wound with pure silver. They actually made distorsion measurements etc. That thing can deliver what it's advertised to. Same thing goes for a Tag Heuer watch. The owner can take comfort that the mechanism is rock solid and there are actual quality materials used in making it. It's not just a rumour started by some marketing prick selling science fiction.
Do you see the difference? The people selling expensive stuff to rich people actually worked hard for it, developing real products that can deliver.
Basically you are promoting the idea that it's ok to lie, cheat, infatuate and take part into deluding rich people justified by the idea that they are rich and they spend money anyway on "stupid things" that you can't understand?
Mind you, if you're comparing a 5 million dollar painting to Blue Meanies on a wall then I rest my case  |O
 

Offline bob808

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #84 on: October 04, 2014, 10:44:18 am »
Oh snap!
I just read The Teleportation Tweak.  :wtf:
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm
I guess brain damage is the only thing that comes into my mind. So, basically for 60 bucks you get a phone call (?) and when you pick it up, you can hear some funny clicks for 20 seconds. That's "the tweak".
So, after scanning through the article I am left with the impression that for 60 bucks I get that phone call that:
- The Teleportation Tweak will also improve any video system in your house, including plasma, LED, and high end projection systems -- better contrast, color saturation, color fidelity and definition. 
- You will find that the effects of The Teleportation Tweak are instantaneous and that the improvement to sound quality is immediately audible. In fact, if the system is playing at the time of the telephone call, you will be able to hear the improvement taking place while The Teleportation Tweak is being performed. You will find The Teleportation Tweak excels in 3-dimensionality, lushness, inner detail and air. The picture quality of any video system in the house will also be improved -- better contrast and integrity of color and blacker black. You will especially notice better skin tones, saturation of colors, shininess of surfaces, textures of fabrics, etc.

 :wtf: :rant: :wtf: ???????
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #85 on: October 04, 2014, 11:18:34 am »
It's just that I see people like you and dannyf that have no morals whatsoever when it comes to money.

First you don't see me.

Second you are assuming and making an Ass of U and Me.

Third what makes you think I have no morals about money or people.

Fourth, Tell me how much you earned last year and where your expenses went and compare them with a poor countryman (of your own country) living on the slumps. Then compare it with 2nd or 3rd world countries.

While you are at it appraise how much you have on electronics right now.

Probably what you waste a year can keep 10 people alive, maybe more or maybe less, but even if it's just one quarter  or one person (meaning that 4 people on your income/waste bracket could save one single person, does it make you society burden easier?


Let's put it this way, you ask for hard proof. I ask the same, you'll get it and I'll be charged for it :)

 

Offline bob808

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #86 on: October 04, 2014, 11:56:29 am »
I live in a second world country  :palm:
Last year 90% of my hard earned money went on gas, electricity bills, food, some coffee and smokes. I had a budget of about 50$ monthly to get some electronic related stuff. I am a Linux/Networking engineer and the only "opulence" that I own is an Ipad mini that I have from work, so I am able to respond quickly to remote issues. Electronics is just a passion that I'm pursuing, although it's expensive for me.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #87 on: October 04, 2014, 12:02:59 pm »
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What I will say

It is irrelevant until and unless it substantiates the two assertions of such products are sold under "completely false pretences" and their performance cannot be achieved.

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or if you find it immoral.

Morality is what civilized people use to constrain their own behaviors, not other people's behaviors. While I don't do anything I consider immoral, you are free to do any and all that I consider immoral.

It is only immoral if you attempt to nullify two free persons' transactions on the basis of your own morality.
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Offline nitro2k01

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2014, 12:54:07 pm »
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What I will say

It is irrelevant until and unless it substantiates the two assertions of such products are sold under "completely false pretences" and their performance cannot be achieved.
You're hung up on that expression originally posted by Hero999 two pages ago. I'm presenting a different hypothesis, that these people (or their lawyers) are generally smart enough to realize that they'll get busted fast if they commit outright fraud, so instead they're selling products with no tangible effect, and make no tangible promises. A fool and their money...
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or if you find it immoral.

Morality is what civilized people use to constrain their own behaviors, not other people's behaviors. While I don't do anything I consider immoral, you are free to do any and all that I consider immoral.

It is only immoral if you attempt to nullify two free persons' transactions on the basis of your own morality.
I suspect you're either involved in this "industry" yourself, a hardcore libertarian, or both. I can see you glorifying the exploits the Church of Scientology and similar organizations. It's just a bunch of people giving money voluntarily to an abusive cult. Nothing to see here. Move along.
I can even see you not liking consumer protection laws. If someone knowingly sold me milk that is infected with salmonella, (without telling me) there's nothing immoral about that. After all, the transaction was voluntary at the time, and the person never promised that the milk wouldn't be infected.

(Edit: And no, I don't want to ban these products from being sold, but that doesn't stop me from calling a spade a spade. The buyers are fools, and the sellers are immoral charlatans.)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 02:36:29 pm by nitro2k01 »
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Offline Zero999

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #89 on: October 04, 2014, 05:59:19 pm »
1) What "completely false pretences" do you think they have commited, in their words?
2) What claims have they made, in their words, that in your view it cannot achieve?
What, are you joking? You really need it to be pointed out to you?

In a bid to make money, they make:
False claims about stupid cable stands improving the sound quality.
Quote
They are very appealing to the eye and you will hear a better focus and blacker background

A false assertion that it's necessary to elevate ones cables off the floor.
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There is no practical excuse for not isolating & elevating your cables off the floor.
http://www.oregondv.com/CableElevators.htm

Fraud!

False pretences: invent a problem which doesn't exist, in order to make money!
Quote
Dark Matter Optical Coating is the first audio product to address the (generally unrecognized) problem in CD playback produced by invisible, infrared scattered laser light inside the transport compartment.
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina51.htm

Fraud!

And this one really does take the piss, not only do they claim their product improves the resolution of ones audio equipment but it also increases the horsepower of a car's engine.

Quote
SHAKTI's ground zero technology increases the resolution of audio and video systems!

SHAKTI Noise Reduction Technology (NRT) absorbs and dissipates Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Automotive Computers (ECUs) and audio/video components self generate a radiated EMI field that degrades signal transfer functions. The word SHAKTI means "energy." Through an energy conversion, inductive coupling process, the "antenna-like" circuits within SHAKTI attract and then resistively convert EMI to non-interfering heat. This increases horsepower and speeds up 0 to 60 times in automotive engines and improves resolution in high definition audio/video systems. No electrical connection is required because all interactions take place through radiated field mutual coupling. One need only place SHAKTI units in near proximity to the CPU or audio component to obtain discernible performance improvements.

Validation of SHAKTI's benefits comes from a variety of objective tests in both the automotive and audio worlds. Evaluation, using Dyno Jet Research automotive dynamometers have measured increases of approximately three horsepower at the rear wheels of a variety of cars. The horsepower gain is a direct result of SHAKTI’s attenuation of EMI in the ECU. This allows the complex network to more accurately perform the analysis modern car computers are called on to do to optimize engine ignition timing and electronic fuel injection. In addition even more sophisticated tests have been run on the state of the art $100,000 Mustang Dyno. When one On-Line was placed on each of the 8 individual coils of a Chevy Tahoe, it showed a remarkable improvement of almost four tenths of a second in its 0 to 60 time. Changes of this magnitude usually cost several thousand dollars in engine modifications, not the $400 cost for 8 On-Lines. This parallels resolution improvements in analog and digital audio components when SHAKTI units are placed near power supplies, DAC chips, capacitors and system wiring. Traditional EMI tests were conducted at Compatible Labs in Agoura, California, which verified SHAKTI's absorption of radiated noise fields. The worldwide use of SHAKTI in consumer and professional applications such as Pink Floyd's Astoria Studio, is further testament to its benefits.
http://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htm

Fraud!

These people shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.

It reminds me of the fake bomb detectors but at least lives aren't at risk, so it's not dangerous but it's still fraud.

 

Offline Syntax_Error

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #90 on: October 04, 2014, 06:35:21 pm »
Guys, go back and read this thread again, and compare it to other similar threads. dannyf is playing rope-a-dope with you. It's the same all over the place: put you on the defensive by asking base questions, and muddy the waters with assertions that you can't "really" know this or that, frequently referencing touchy feely BS like morality, perception, values, yadda yadda. By keeping you on the defensive, he never has to satisfy the same burden of proof he thrusts your direction. Basically, he's controlling the conversation and making you play fetch.

Now I will have to "prove" each of these statements, with references, in similar fashion, I'm sure.  ::) But,  I won't. :) Reread your own thread and see if you can figure it out.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #91 on: October 04, 2014, 07:00:19 pm »
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Fraud!

Like I said to the other dude/dudess: calm down. No reason to get too excited about trivial things like this.

Plus, a cooler head helps you think logically.

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False pretences: invent a problem which doesn't exist, in order to make money!

Which part of it qualifies as "false pretences": inventing a problem that doesn't exist? or "in order to make money"? or both? or neither?

Quote
problem in CD playback produced by invisible, infrared scattered laser light inside the transport compartment.

Let's take the above statement for example. Which part(s) of the above statement doesn't exist / "in order to make money"? or both / or neither?
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #92 on: October 04, 2014, 07:03:23 pm »
Quote
At this point, the length of this conversation is way out of proportion to my interest in it.
-- Dan Rydell  Season 1 Episode 3 "The Hungry and the Haunted"  Sports Night 

I don't see any option to un-subscribe from this thread?
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #93 on: October 04, 2014, 07:06:03 pm »
I love those high end cables, I have some I got recently, (for free as they were 'upgraded') so stripped them to the component wiring and made some nice PTFE coated test leads with 4mm plugs at both ends, for use on the power supply and for general use. 2 colours, white and blue, so I can choose the cable according to mood, and see if it has any difference in the measurements.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2014, 07:40:27 pm »
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see if it has any difference in the measurements.

It is very easy to show that they are different with equipment;

It is very difficult to show that they are different with human hearing.
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Offline bob808

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #95 on: October 04, 2014, 07:43:04 pm »
You're just trolling now. I won't follow this thread anymore.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #96 on: October 04, 2014, 07:50:03 pm »
Only thing consistent is longer leads have a higher voltage drop. Colour does not seem to make a difference, even the smoke is the same acrid smell and has the same eye watering ability.
 

Offline Excavatoree

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #97 on: October 04, 2014, 08:22:06 pm »
Only thing consistent is longer leads have a higher voltage drop. Colour does not seem to make a difference, even the smoke is the same acrid smell and has the same eye watering ability.

I've noticed that.   It didn't take any expensive equipment, either.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #98 on: October 04, 2014, 10:42:14 pm »
I've just found this thread about people who admit to being ripped off by these charlatans. I think part of the problem is some people feel too embarrassed to have fallen for a scam.

http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=417
 

Offline timb

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Re: I Love The Smell of Audiophoolery In The Morning
« Reply #99 on: October 04, 2014, 11:19:14 pm »
@dannyf You are seriously the worst troll ever. You're so transparent. Go back to Reddit or wherever the hell you came from.


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