Author Topic: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!  (Read 10011 times)

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Offline R005T3r

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I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« on: November 07, 2017, 10:19:04 am »
Guys,

this is probably the best thing that happened to me since I was 20.... Yestreday I decided to quit university and change my life. It required me a lot of effort, and willingness too I had to be honest with myself and shatter my dream... It was not easy since I've been in the middle of a real bad fight with myself... Not to mention I had to sart again whit no one's help, however, now I'm the electrical sector (automation) and I'm good at it and I love it!

My advice to anyone who finds itself battaling within themselves about leave or stay at university:
be honest with yourelf, if things don't work out or never worked out since you set a foot on it (which was definitely my case), don't be ashamed! you can still be very successful in life, even if you don't have a bacherlor or a phd degree, because out there there's plenty of other possibilities! And in the future, if you want, you can also invest in your education too: In my case, I decided to step up my english and take the Cambridge CAE!

Also, you can take electronics even more seriously as a hobby by discarding or limiting a lot of  "unwanted subjects"!
 
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Offline CM800

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2017, 10:23:12 am »
At 18 I left my college course and got this job, absolutely love it too :)

... Also in Automation (Drives & Controls supply & support)


EDIT:

That said, I've been considering going back to University on release or something similar, possibly in Physics. I think a wider knowlege assists greatly when it comes to working over a diverse range of industries. My job requires me to provide support to a wide variety of areas from Lab automation & bottling machines over to military and semiconductor manufacturing projects.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 10:41:03 am by CM800 »
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2017, 10:32:47 am »
Congratulations. Got to be honest, one of the worst decisions I made was to stay at university. I clocked up a ton of debt, I ended up working in a different market sector and I learned precisely nothing I couldn't teach myself with some effort other than the sheer amount of politics in a university. But you know you're told that is the path of life for 18 years of your life and you must take it or work cleaning toilets.

Turns out any sufficiently motivated individual can do well at anything without the support of an incumbent organisation (apart from possibly in medicine).

I'd love to do automation. You get to do things to things that do things so you see the results of your work immediately.
 

Offline CoalCreekPlastics

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 04:10:50 am »
Good for you!  I think the worst thing we do to young people these days is push them into college.  In the U.S. it's very bad.  I think it's a crime to have young people coming out of these colleges and universities loaded with debt and no marketable skills! 

Hobbies and passions like electronics and computers are a pathway to gainful employment, not a degree.  I went back and got an associates in something I was interested in after the fact, but my company paid for it! 

Also young people should consider online and community college courses, but there is no law that says you can't be a success and make a good living without an undergraduate or advanced degree.  My ex has a masters and couldn't hold a job pouring piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel.
 

Offline hermit

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 05:23:44 am »
I dropped out because I really didn't know what I wanted to do.  Later in life I had more focus and my company paid so I went back.  Ended up with two associates and one bachelors degree.  I think my lack of focus and direction cost me a couple of decades.  An education is what YOU make of it.  But at the end of the day, all of these kinds of decisions are personal.
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 09:32:02 pm »
Good for you!  I think the worst thing we do to young people these days is push them into college.  In the U.S. it's very bad.  I think it's a crime to have young people coming out of these colleges and universities loaded with debt and no marketable skills! 

Hobbies and passions like electronics and computers are a pathway to gainful employment, not a degree.  I went back and got an associates in something I was interested in after the fact, but my company paid for it! 

Also young people should consider online and community college courses, but there is no law that says you can't be a success and make a good living without an undergraduate or advanced degree.  My ex has a masters and couldn't hold a job pouring piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel.

Yep, it's very common to think that having a degree is the way to success, but it's actually wrong, it's an illusion. My dream is to be an interpreneur someday, and I'm 100% sure that it's the key for me, at least...
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 11:17:07 pm »
I dropped out because I really didn't know what I wanted to do.  Later in life I had more focus and my company paid so I went back.  Ended up with two associates and one bachelors degree.  I think my lack of focus and direction cost me a couple of decades.  An education is what YOU make of it.  But at the end of the day, all of these kinds of decisions are personal.

Very true.

What is objectionable is someone that didn't complete a degree then going on to say that degrees are worthless and trying to persuade others that they shouldn't get a degree.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline edpalmer42

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2017, 12:31:46 am »
When I was in university (Electrical Engineering), one of my profs told the class that when you graduate after 4 years of classes (40 hrs/week + at least another 40 hrs/week outside of class), you wouldn't know anything of value to an employer.  So the obvious question was "Then why am I killing myself getting this damn degree!!".  The answer is that when you show your degree to a prospective employer you are showing him that:

1.  I have a functioning brain and can learn complex material relatively quickly and then apply it.
2.  I can learn things that may not be of interest to me and remember and apply it.
3.  I can put up with assorted BS.
4.  I have the persistence to stick with a project until I complete it.

When you tell a prospective employer that you dropped out of university, what do you think he hears?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for those of you who dropped out and found good jobs that you enjoy.  Often, people like that are the best workers in the company.  But if the bean counters are looking for people to lay off, it wouldn't surprise me to find that anyone without a diploma might be high on the list.  So make sure that you take extra courses online, at night, or at work to improve your skills and make sure the company knows about it!

Ed
 
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Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2017, 10:07:23 am »
If there’s anything we’ve found, aptitude comes from enthusiasm, not from slogging 4 years of university. HR are the only people who have a problem if you don’t have a degree, unless you’re a surgical registrar or something.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 10:13:59 am »
If there’s anything we’ve found, aptitude comes from enthusiasm, not from slogging 4 years of university. HR are the only people who have a problem if you don’t have a degree, unless you’re a surgical registrar or something.

Enthusiasm and aptitude are orthogonal. Neither is necessary, neither is sufficient, both are highly desirable.

HR-droids tend to be the gatekeeper (or a modern incarnation of a "flapper" as described by Jonathan Swift). That can be a problem for anybody, e.g. those who are "too old".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 10:15:51 am »
This comment from a parallel thread is directly relevant and therefore worth reading. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/relative-integrity-of-educational-systems-how-trustworthy-are-degrees/msg1365259/#msg1365259

edpalmer42's posting above is also accurate.

EDIT: when I try to follow that link, it ends up at the wrong message. The message I think is particularly relevant and noteworthy is:
Quote
From Simon Global Moderator
Re: Relative integrity of educational systems. How trustworthy are degrees?
« Reply #78 on: Yesterday at 07:41:59 PM »
I was hired because I was cheap! And I often get thrown in my face the fact that I am not qualified. Any job offer I see for any other company demands a long list of qualifications and often experience.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 04:39:43 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 03:58:20 pm »
There is no silver bullet here. I know examples in several fronts with varying degrees of success: friends that dropped university when their dream job was still paying enough but eventually found themselves back when the market changed; friends that had followed on to their degrees but ended up finding themselves too overwhelmed with bills (and some with pride) to change careers when things went bad for their specific field; friends that completely dropped and found themselves in varying degrees of success.

I dropped out because I really didn't know what I wanted to do.  Later in life I had more focus and my company paid so I went back.  Ended up with two associates and one bachelors degree.  I think my lack of focus and direction cost me a couple of decades.  An education is what YOU make of it.  But at the end of the day, all of these kinds of decisions are personal.

Very true.

What is objectionable is someone that didn't complete a degree then going on to say that degrees are worthless and trying to persuade others that they shouldn't get a degree.
I agree. You need to go through to know how it is.

At least in my course, our degree taught us how to sistematically learn and pursue an end goal over a number of months and ultimately do a final project to give some practical and applied validation.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 04:23:35 pm »
I had a prof at the university that told us that there are three things to be successful:

1. Knowledge (University)
2. Skills (May be not university)
3. Attitude (definitively not university)

And the last one has the highest weight.

We had a few dropouts during my time and some of them have been very successful.
I guess it is a personal calling for each of us and when we are honest with our self, we will find the right thing to do.
If we would choose to stay in the university and it is not feeling right, it is probably good to leave.

For me, it was the best thing to do and finish and I would do it again!

 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 04:41:37 pm »
There is no silver bullet here. I know examples in several fronts with varying degrees of success: friends that dropped university when their dream job was still paying enough but eventually found themselves back when the market changed; friends that had followed on to their degrees but ended up finding themselves too overwhelmed with bills (and some with pride) to change careers when things went bad for their specific field; friends that completely dropped and found themselves in varying degrees of success.
...
At least in my course, our degree taught us how to sistematically learn and pursue an end goal over a number of months and ultimately do a final project to give some practical and applied validation.

All true and relevant; others have reiterated your final point.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 05:01:55 pm »
Just for starters, let me qualify my background so that my following thoughts may have some basis. I started out in school from a late start, after I was already married and had children. I will not go into the reason for any of this as it is not pertinent to the conversation. So, I started out seeking an electronic technology degree in a 2 year program at the age of 25. With those years behind me of working jobs that varied in nature, but were all labor intensive. I realized that I wanted to step up my education when I kept running into lack of electrical/electronic knowledge. I was a machinist and, the production metal parts that I was turning in a lathe had cuts that would last 12 to 15 minutes for each cut. So I went down to the library and checked out a fat beginning electronics textbook that I happened to know was used by many schools to teach beginning electronics, and as each cutting pass was started, I would read the material and work the problems in the book. This is how I originally learned ohm's law and was introduced to the world of electronics. This is what made me decide to take the next step and enter into the world of secondary education and to seek a degree.

I started in school as an adult and only took classes after or before my workday as a part time student. Without any further explanation, this proved to be a very long process, and as time went on, and I had to move where the work was, I did not finish a degree. Eventually, after 20 years of this part time study, I could not qualify for the original program that I started out, because, schools change programs every few years. So, during that 20 year period, I decided that since that degree was not possible, I would concentrate on general knowledge and took classes that interested me, such as drafting, programming and physics. One of the problems with having to move to different areas to chase work, at least here in the US, is that school curricula does not exchange from school to school for a particular type of degree, the new school always wants in the student to take 10-30 more hours at their school in order to qualify for THEIR degree program.

Just a short interjection here, since I am old, 64 years, and the internet has not been available during most of these years that I am speaking of for my career.

I finally gave up on getting any kind of degree, and eventually stopped taking classes altogether more than 20 years ago. I am now 64 years old and here is what I learned from my experiences in trying to get jobs relating to my interests and field of study. Most of the times that I was seeking a new job, I would find a colleague, past or present, that would tell me of an opening for a specific job and I would wind up interviewing for the job that I wanted and not get that job, but would get offered a "lower" position because of my lack of a degree. Jobs became more difficult to get over the last 25 years because of the changing economy here in the US, and I will not get into the reasons, but suffice it to say that I had fewer choices and the jobs would not last because of company downsizing, sellouts, shutdowns, etc. which meant the there were fewer and fewer jobs that I could get.

So, here is the take away from my personal experiences in my career as a non-degreed engineer, who has had some small successes in career, and some not so successful periods. The "degree" in a technical field is essential to get a rapid deployment into a set field in that the curricula is finely tuned to target a specific area and teaches the student the very basic technical tools needed to get started in the field. The actual completion and diploma in the field is a door opener to get the person qualified to interview for the related jobs. Without the diploma, the skepticism of the qualifications is a matter that will not get your resume onto the pile of other resumes that are pre-qualified, and therefore, you will not get you the chance to interview for such of a position. The very few times that I was able to get the interview for such positions was when their was a common link with a person that was able to get me in the door for such interviews. The battle was still uphill because of the lack of diploma, and often I settle for those "lower" positions with a vague promise of if I did well, I would get the title. (Never happened.)


Whew... |O, I hope this brings some thought process for those who can learn from my experiences. Apologize for the long winded explanations.
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Offline hermit

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 05:14:13 pm »
I finally gave up on getting any kind of degree, and eventually stopped taking classes altogether
After 2 associates degrees I too started doing classes that interested me but gave up the higher degree.  That actually happened as I was driving down the freeway and saw the school had a billboard touting their new 'general studies' degree.  At first they told me I needed a few more classes.  I said check with 'these departments'.  They finally decided I had enough in two fields (electrical and computer) to qualify.  I ended up on their website as "one student" who didn't have to take any additional classes. ;)
 

Offline b_force

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2017, 05:39:37 pm »
I find schools/college and university the best places to get all depressed and demotivated. Total waste of time.
In my opinion they put way to much effort in the formalities, but not about what is important.

Especially nowadays it's not difficult at all to teach stuff yourself.

So the only thing I can say, is good for you!  :-+

For the record, I don't know many employers who even really care about a degree.
They look for experience, the right attitude and if it 'clicks'.
To many people with a perfect (even cum laude) degree might passed school perfectly, but that doesn't mean they are great workers, or 'out of the box thinkers'.
Sometimes it only means they are good in 'studying', but definitely doesn't mean they are smarter.
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Offline amirm

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2017, 07:29:18 pm »
I do have a degree but almost everything in my career had nothing to do with that degree. 

The college system is an antiquated system that has not kept up with times.  In this day and age, I can learn more from a youtube video than I could in an entire college course.  Heck, I can also take that college course online and finish it in days, not months.

What needs to be taught in schools is what we need people to know when they get a job.   Instead of forcing someone to take art appreciation, how about a class on how to write a good email?  Or run a good meeting?  Or making a good presentation?  Or how to act in front of customers, press and executives? 

Ditto for all the advanced math we force students to take.  Countless very smart people drop out or can't qualify to get into a college due to this requirement which we all know is of very little value.

Then there is this notion that it takes four years to get a degree.  Why?  I can teach everything a computer science engineer needs to know in six months or less.  Why not train people properly and get them into the workforce. 

There is a big social cost here too as people with lesser means can't get into school system no matter how smart or capable engineer they could be.  Needing money is a terrible way to stop these people from pursuing the right career not only for them but for society as a whole.

Unfortunately if you are still young, you will be competing with college grads who will get into the door easier by resume scanners (human or otherwise).  Once you get some experience this difference shrinks.  But for now, companies are just as confused as educational system as it comes to value of a degree.

It is my hope that one of these days I can get a movement started to undo this old system and get people faster to their dreams of being programmers and engineers.
 

Offline vodka

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2017, 07:38:19 pm »
Quote
I find schools/college and university the best places to get all depressed and demotivated. Total waste of time.
I am agreed , the first year of the college was already dismoralized and jaded ,with felt like of to go out . Finally, i was almost 7 years , besides jammed , without able to advance neither reverse .

Quote
In my opinion they put way to much effort in the formalities, but not about what is important.
At my case , we lost more the time , performing calculate than learning methods and tools for designing and developing projects.

Quote
For the record, I don't know many employers who even really care about a degree.

That is a curious stuff, i have applied for Electronics jobs but only rang me 4 interviewer at almost 3 years. 6 months ago , i decided to change the career and began with software programmer (ABAP, COBOL ) and surprise 30 called , i am amazing because i haven't a software enginnering degree.



 

Offline expinkolator

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2017, 07:44:32 pm »
The answer is that when you show your degree to a prospective employer you are showing him that:

1.  I have a functioning brain and can learn complex material relatively quickly and then apply it.
2.  I can learn things that may not be of interest to me and remember and apply it.
3.  I can put up with assorted BS.
4.  I have the persistence to stick with a project until I complete it.

Someone who spent 4 years and got into 10s of k debt just to show an employer that ought to be considered an idiot.

Couldn't show the same by doing a real job for 4 years? Even being paid nothing would be better than paying someone to teach you nothing useful.
 

Online hans

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2017, 09:13:02 pm »
I have strong doubts that any 'truth' discussed is universal.

People have different characters. Some like hands-on experience and learn theory as they go, and in particular as they need.
Some other like theoretical approach and find satisfaction when hands-on matches within the confidence levels of the theory. Hands-on is maybe not really their aim, but correlation may be (think simulators).

As long as you're doing something that makes you happy, you're golden. Staying in a job or college that makes you unhappy is the worst decision for you.

And perhaps even this what I just said is not universal. Some jobs just require a BSc or even MSc to get into. First thing that springs to my mind would typically be an ASIC engineer job function.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2017, 11:26:19 pm »
This debate of 'college degree' vs 'no degree' rages on endlessly.  There are always cases where people are satisfied with jobs they can get without a degree.  Why not? 

In my town, there isn't a police officer on the job making less than $100k/year (including overtime and hire-back) and we're not a high paying city.  Law enforcement, in general, doesn't take an advanced education unless you want to promote to Lieutenant and beyond. 

Union electricians are very well paid (4 year paid apprenticeship required) but they don't work full time (generally).  But once you get in with a shop and if you have skills in something special like controls or automation, you probably won't miss a day of work.  So, yes, there are many ways to make a living that don't require a 4 year degree.  It does tend to be hard work and it isn't always challenging.  Flat out, it is boring!  After you have bent some pipe and pulled some wire, the newness wears off.  After that, it's just grunt work.

HVAC mechanics make good money.  It takes a couple of years at a community college and you're good to go.  Repairing residential equipment is most likely a full time job.  Especially since the contractors try to get their customers signed up for service contracts.  That gives the mechanic something to do and it allows them to evaluate your system a couple of times per year.

So, why go to college?  Well, maybe so you can get high paying jobs that aren't boring or life threatening.  Or maybe because the higher level jobs are more interesting.  Or, maybe because SOME of what you learn is useful.  Math is always useful - a little trig here, a little optimization there, you might just find math helpful.  Physics is always useful.  Friction, momentum, power, energy, mechanics - all these come in helpful from time to time.  California History and US History were pretty much a waste of time.  As was Philosophy and a couple of other General Education courses.  Hint:  That's the cool thing about grad school, you get to pick your classes.

Most STEM programs are going to require a boatload of math.  A certain amount of math is helpful even if electronics is just a hobby.  Charge/discharge equations, nodal and mesh analysis, bias conditions, perhaps transfer functions, Bode' plots (and their interpretation) and so on.  Electronics is ALL math.  Even getting an LED to work from some voltage requires at least a little arithmetic.  The ability to do the math tends to be the filter for engineering.  The problem is, most come at math with a bad attitude to start with.  They hate it!  They have hated it since the 3rd grade and they aren't going to like it now.

I have been retired for a very long time but I will say that having a degree gets you in the door to talk to someone.  Not having a degree, regardless of your talent, will almost certainly get your resume' dumped without a phone call.  Just the way it is!

Want to be an engineer?  Go to school!  Or find some other way of making a living that makes you happy.

 

Offline HalFET

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2017, 11:29:59 pm »
My main advice is, do the degree, don't do the PhD...  |O

*Goes back to cursing at data sets and writing*
 

Offline hermit

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2017, 11:35:12 pm »
I thought I hated math but found out I just hated arithmetic.  When I went back to school I didn't have to do it anymore.  Long live the calculators. ;) 

The reason I went back to school is that there was something I wanted to learn and my company would pay for it.  When they closed my division and I now had a few associates and a bachelors degree.   I was able to get a few contract positions that I wouldn't have gotten without one.  My age was a factor in employment though.  One place wanted me to be a full time employee but as a contract worker.  I wasn't going to do the same job as others that knew less than I did for less money though.  I had other options.  Options that wouldn't have been there without the degree.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2017, 11:36:35 pm »

Someone who spent 4 years and got into 10s of k debt just to show an employer that ought to be considered an idiot.

Couldn't show the same by doing a real job for 4 years? Even being paid nothing would be better than paying someone to teach you nothing useful.

There are plenty of jobs that offer paid 4 year apprenticeships.  All of the construction trades work that way.  Under some conditions, the trades pay well.

But if it's a real engineering job, you simply won't be able to do the work.  What you won't have is the math skill and you won't have the theory either because the theory is buried in math.  Nobody I ever heard of taught themselves differential equations and Laplace Transforms for giggles.  Sure, it is possible to cobble together a bunch of parts and maybe turn out a project but that is technician work, not engineering.

Ever sit down to an engineering meeting where they start slinging numbers?  You need to be able to keep up or get left behind.

Engineering is all math.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2017, 11:38:07 pm »
My main advice is, do the degree, don't do the PhD...  |O

*Goes back to cursing at data sets and writing*

I think the sweet spot is MS degree.   You just separated yourself from the masses of BS degrees but you haven't isolated yourself into academia.
 

Offline HalFET

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2017, 11:47:06 pm »
My main advice is, do the degree, don't do the PhD...  |O

*Goes back to cursing at data sets and writing*

I think the sweet spot is MS degree.   You just separated yourself from the masses of BS degrees but you haven't isolated yourself into academia.

You got to do the masters here to get the title of engineer in the first place, so it doesn't really give any distinction at all.
 

Offline expinkolator

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 11:50:51 pm »
But if it's a real engineering job, you simply won't be able to do the work.

Then the assertion I quoted is rubbish. You can't have it both ways.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2017, 12:06:43 am »
But if it's a real engineering job, you simply won't be able to do the work[without the mathematics]  What you won't have is the math skill and you won't have the theory either because the theory is buried in math.  Nobody I ever heard of taught themselves differential equations and Laplace Transforms for giggles.  Sure, it is possible to cobble together a bunch of parts and maybe turn out a project but that is technician work, not engineering.

Yes.

Except my father did teach himself differential equations and most other things. He didn't have an option, since he was profoundly deaf in an age where deafaids didn't exist!

Quote
Engineering is all math.

Yes.

What some people don't seem to understand is that while "the result of the best mathematics is that you don't need all the detailed mathematics", you need to understand the theory to know where/when the maths doesn't apply.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2017, 12:08:37 am »
I have been retired for a very long time but I will say that having a degree gets you in the door to talk to someone.  Not having a degree, regardless of your talent, will almost certainly get your resume' dumped without a phone call.  Just the way it is!

Want to be an engineer?  Go to school!  Or find some other way of making a living that makes you happy.

Precisely.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2017, 12:09:16 am »
My main advice is, do the degree, don't do the PhD...  |O

*Goes back to cursing at data sets and writing*

I think the sweet spot is MS degree.   You just separated yourself from the masses of BS degrees but you haven't isolated yourself into academia.

You got to do the masters here to get the title of engineer in the first place, so it doesn't really give any distinction at all.

In the US, the MS is an add-on.  The BS is about all it takes to get started.  I really enjoyed grad school.  I got to pick my courses and focused on stuff that interested me (computer hardware design).  I did have to take a 1 unit Engineering Seminar and a couple of math classes (Numerical Analysis and Signal Processing) but the others were the ones I wanted.

Had I been thinking, I would have postponed graduation in favor of taking some more classes.  The company was paying the bills and I doubt that they would have complained (or even noticed).
 

Offline cdev

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2017, 12:11:06 am »
High tech is fascinating and a lot of fun, and may even be good for work, now.

But don't fool yourself to think that simply being great at something, degree or not, will get you a stable job for the rest of your life. Stay out of debt and lighten your burn rate. Keep aware of the fact that there are a lot of incomplete contracts in the world. Assume nothing about our future.

Tech careers may soon become precarious work.

Which itself may rapidly dry up, wages falling, due to automation.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2017, 12:39:09 am »
High tech is fascinating and a lot of fun, and may even be good for work, now.

But don't fool yourself to think that simply being great at something, degree or not, will get you a stable job for the rest of your life. Stay out of debt and lighten your burn rate. Keep aware of the fact that there are a lot of incomplete contracts in the world. Assume nothing about our future.

Tech careers may soon become precarious work.

Which itself may rapidly dry up, wages falling, due to automation.

Which is why I was blessed that my father taught me the electrical trade.  I was a Journeyman Electrician before I ever started college.  If things turned sideways, I could always make a living in the trade.  In fact, I worked in the trade during most of my undergrad years.

I never spent much time using my electronics education.  I moved into project management with a side helping of electrical design and construction - facilities type work.  I never strayed far from my roots!

Electronics was, and still is, just a hobby.  It's not the kind of thing I would want to do on a full time basis.  In fact, I don't even like drafting-board type engineering (CAD either, for that matter).  It's just boring.  I contracted that stuff out.  I just worked on the 'big picture'.  Details were left to others.


 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2017, 08:58:24 am »
You got to do the masters here to get the title of engineer in the first place, so it doesn't really give any distinction at all.
That's not true. Engineer and Ingenieur are not protected in Belgium. Anyone can call himself that.
Architect is protected, but violation is not punished.

Msc Ing. Ir. Dr. are protected, violation is punished.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline HalFET

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2017, 09:03:23 am »
You got to do the masters here to get the title of engineer in the first place, so it doesn't really give any distinction at all.
That's not true. Engineer and Ingenieur are not protected in Belgium. Anyone can call himself that.
Architect is protected, but violation is not punished.

Msc Ing. Ir. Dr. are protected, violation is punished.

I love how you say they're not protected and then proceed to list the titles as protected   :-DD
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2017, 09:50:30 am »
I love how you say they're not protected and then proceed to list the titles as protected 

You fail to see the difference between the long words and the abbreviations.
Not difficult, try again.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline HalFET

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2017, 03:21:49 pm »
I love how you say they're not protected and then proceed to list the titles as protected 

You fail to see the difference between the long words and the abbreviations.
Not difficult, try again.

I did say "title of engineer" to avoid having to go through the entire list.  |O But if you go full grammar nazi sure, then we'd have to call it honorific. But here's the actual relevant law: https://data-onderwijs.vlaanderen.be/edulex/document.aspx?docid=12722
 

Online JPortici

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2017, 03:56:28 pm »
At some point (when i landed a job) i decided to drop out. I don't want to bore you with the details of my life in that awful period but i am glad i did it, after 7 years (including high school) i was finally going to do something with my brain and not keep re-learning the same stuff i did in high school.

I did learn a lot of things and i improved my way of learning in the process, but i wouldn't do engineering again. If i went back to uni to get a degree it would probably be in biology (a field that fascinates me, at some point i decided electronic-bioengineering was what i would be going to specialize in, if i followed through)

Of my colleagues that ended up graduating, most ended up doing research for companies or in uni, others just wanted become managers and needed the degree. I wanted to be neither. I wanted to design products and challenge myself doing so (in a more practical way than what i believe a researcher do) and everything i don't know i learn. My employer also want me to keep learning and we all attend courses when relevant ones are available

On a side note, it is my understanding that starting 2019 a BS degree will have the same weight as my high school diploma. Is it because my diploma is THAT good or because a BS is THAT bad?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:59:20 pm by JPortici »
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2017, 02:26:24 pm »
I find schools/college and university the best places to get all depressed and demotivated. Total waste of time.
In my opinion they put way to much effort in the formalities, but not about what is important.

Especially nowadays it's not difficult at all to teach stuff yourself.

So the only thing I can say, is good for you!  :-+

For the record, I don't know many employers who even really care about a degree.
They look for experience, the right attitude and if it 'clicks'.
To many people with a perfect (even cum laude) degree might passed school perfectly, but that doesn't mean they are great workers, or 'out of the box thinkers'.
Sometimes it only means they are good in 'studying', but definitely doesn't mean they are smarter.

So true,
I've started very motivated to get the degree, and I dropped it because of the climax and the BS that came all along with it... I'ts uneasy to study when all the students are your competitors, and it's even worst studying the things you don't like but are "essential" as they say, but we all know they are NOT!
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2017, 02:29:33 pm »
I've started very motivated to get the degree, and I dropped it because of the climax and the BS that came all along with it... I'ts uneasy to study when all the students are your competitors, and it's even worst studying the things you don't like but are "essential" as they say, but we all know they are NOT!

And exactly what is different about working in a company?!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2017, 02:35:12 pm »
The fact that at the end of the day, you get paid and you do something useful in life, for others and not only for yourself.
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2017, 02:43:07 pm »
The answer is that when you show your degree to a prospective employer you are showing him that:

1.  I have a functioning brain and can learn complex material relatively quickly and then apply it.
2.  I can learn things that may not be of interest to me and remember and apply it.
3.  I can put up with assorted BS.
4.  I have the persistence to stick with a project until I complete it.

Someone who spent 4 years and got into 10s of k debt just to show an employer that ought to be considered an idiot.

Couldn't show the same by doing a real job for 4 years? Even being paid nothing would be better than paying someone to teach you nothing useful.

Debt influenced my choice quite a bit 3K Eur per year is quite a lot of money... Also the fact that I was slipping out of the market influenced my choice.

However, I was lucky this time: the govt did something stupid (again) and involuntairly gave a major assist to me because of an idiotic reform back in the 2014...
It played a major role in my choice: I have a very good high school diploma which was still high-quoted in the 2015, and since the reform, it's value just went up, because the companies are looking for that specific one instead of post-reform ones, so companies are still calling me...

« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:00:44 pm by R005T3r »
 

Offline b_force

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2017, 03:59:27 pm »
Engineering is all math.
don't agree with this.
Engineering is all ballpark calculations but mostly intuition.
I seldom solve any difficult equations (besides some basic algebra).
If i really do need to figure out some nasty differential equations or integrals, I just use MatLab, Maple or what have you.
Or just ask the interns to do it sometimes  :popcorn:
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline Galenbo

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2017, 07:51:47 am »
Engineering is all math.
don't agree with this.
Engineering is all ballpark calculations but mostly intuition.
I seldom solve any difficult equations (besides some basic algebra).
If i really do need to figure out some nasty differential equations or integrals, I just use MatLab, Maple or what have you.
Or just ask the interns to do it sometimes  :popcorn:
Ok, but an engineer worth the name knows how mesh analysis is done in simulations and other software, how to apply symmetry and assumptions, and knows the threats when a monkey enters data in statistics software.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Technobabble_

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2017, 01:27:32 am »
Hello! There are dozens of us :D

From my personal anecdote: I still think most people should at least try a class or two at uni before they make a decision. I left after a year, and I did benefit in terms of networking, building contacts, and free electrical equipment.

For anyone else reading this, and is considering jumping ship. I recommend:

1. Be honest with yourself: Why are you doing this? Is it because you don't like that specific university, or do you simply learn better on your own (whether it be online courses, MOOC's, or hands-on building)?
2. Have a plan b and c and d in case that job/apprenticeship/internship you left uni for falls flat. I was fortunate enough to have contacts back at the uni I went to, and got a research position after my consulting business dried up.
3. Have enough savings to last you six months at least, in case things go south.
4. Build a personal portfolio website! When submitting your resume, have the link at the top.
5. If you do pursue another endeavor, it's going to take time (years) to ramp up to the income level you desire. Not everyone is going to be Steve Jobs or Bill gates, however paying the bills and being your own boss isn't too bad, either.

The reason I am writing this is that when I graduated high school, I felt college was shoved down my throat and I "drank the Kool-aid" so to speak. People learn differently, and at different rates. This doesn't even account for the rising cost of tuition (at least here in the US). I wish I had a little more guidance then.

Figure out what works for You.

Cheers.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2017, 06:52:14 am »
While I do think college is tremendously overrated, it's also a fact that many jobs require a degree, even if having that degree says little about whether the person can do the job or not. All you need is one manager who got a fancy degree and is fully on board with everyone else having one and it's very difficult to get in the door. I dropped out of college myself and while I've managed to stay gainfully employed in engineering, if I didn't already have the job I do, my employer would never hire me. Since the acquisition a couple years ago I've never seen them hire anyone who isn't fresh out of college with an engineering degree. Now some of those guys have been quite good, but so are some of our non-degreed guys.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2017, 09:46:32 am »
Figure out what works for You.

Precisely.

There is a tendency amongst some people on this forum to make statements akin to "university is rubbish" and "graduates are useless". Such statements should be taken with a very big pinch of salt, since they reveal more about the author than the subject.

In a company, what matters is that the team has an complementary set of skills and personalities, so that each person covers the other people's weaknesses.

Anybody that thinks otherwise is also likely to think that it is unnecessary for hospitals to have doctors plus nurses. Frequently this is manifested on this forum in the form of "doctors cannot do simple practical tasks such as inserting a needle into a vein, and are therefore hopeless".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2017, 09:56:16 am »
Engineering is all math.
don't agree with this.
Engineering is all ballpark calculations but mostly intuition.
I seldom solve any difficult equations (besides some basic algebra).
If i really do need to figure out some nasty differential equations or integrals, I just use MatLab, Maple or what have you.
Or just ask the interns to do it sometimes  :popcorn:

Difficult equations = wolphram alpha or similar software.

Once you learn how to use mathlab or wolfram language, you can do pretty much everything whit it. And the best is that your chances of making calculations mistakes are 0.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2017, 10:03:21 am »
Difficult equations = wolphram alpha or similar software.

Once you learn how to use mathlab or wolfram language, you can do pretty much everything whit it. And the best is that your chances of making calculations mistakes are 0.
I love Wolfram Alpha. It's so convenient it feels like cheating, but if you're after results, it's very effective.
 

Offline R005T3r

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2017, 10:08:58 am »
Hello! There are dozens of us :D

From my personal anecdote: I still think most people should at least try a class or two at uni before they make a decision. I left after a year, and I did benefit in terms of networking, building contacts, and free electrical equipment.

For anyone else reading this, and is considering jumping ship. I recommend:

1. Be honest with yourself: Why are you doing this? Is it because you don't like that specific university, or do you simply learn better on your own (whether it be online courses, MOOC's, or hands-on building)?
2. Have a plan b and c and d in case that job/apprenticeship/internship you left uni for falls flat. I was fortunate enough to have contacts back at the uni I went to, and got a research position after my consulting business dried up.
3. Have enough savings to last you six months at least, in case things go south.
4. Build a personal portfolio website! When submitting your resume, have the link at the top.
5. If you do pursue another endeavor, it's going to take time (years) to ramp up to the income level you desire. Not everyone is going to be Steve Jobs or Bill gates, however paying the bills and being your own boss isn't too bad, either.

The reason I am writing this is that when I graduated high school, I felt college was shoved down my throat and I "drank the Kool-aid" so to speak. People learn differently, and at different rates. This doesn't even account for the rising cost of tuition (at least here in the US). I wish I had a little more guidance then.

Figure out what works for You.

Cheers.

Hey,
I'm definitely not a fool.
1.  I'm doing this, mostly because after having spent 5 years in a road that brought me nearly nowhere. I can't say that studying is not my thing, in reality I can do complex stuff, but in my own terms.  However, I can clearly say that studying like they require is something I'm partially able to do... I learn better on my way and in my terms. That's all.
2. I alredy have found a good job and the chances are good that I'll be an enterpreneur someday (in an evergreen sector)
3. yep I defenitley have that, fortunately for me, money are not a big issue right now.
4. I'll think about that...
5. Income level? I'm not doing that job because of the income level, it's more like I want to learn that job.

In the recent years automation is becoming more and more popular.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2017, 10:34:29 am »
High tech is fascinating and a lot of fun, and may even be good for work, now.

But don't fool yourself to think that simply being great at something, degree or not, will get you a stable job for the rest of your life. Stay out of debt and lighten your burn rate. Keep aware of the fact that there are a lot of incomplete contracts in the world. Assume nothing about our future.

Tech careers may soon become precarious work.

Which itself may rapidly dry up, wages falling, due to automation.
Automation is only a threat to unskilled, lowtech jobs. Engineers and technicians are the ones who will be designing, optimising and maintaining automated processes. No degree is necessary to become a technician who will often get paid more to fix a machine, than the engineer who designed it!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 10:45:26 am by Hero999 »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2017, 10:36:29 am »
Everybody reading this thread really ought to speed read an old short story by Isaac Asimov, "Profession". It is as valid as it was when written, and is relevant to this thread.

See http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2017, 10:37:44 am »
Automation is only a thread to unskilled, lowtech jobs. Engineers and technicians are the ones who will be designing, optimising ans maintaining automated processes. No degree is necessary to become a technician who will often get paid more to fix a machine, than the engineer who designed it!

Very true; I've seen that!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2017, 10:49:58 am »
Automation is only a threat to unskilled, lowtech jobs. Engineers and technicians are the ones who will be designing, optimising and maintaining automated processes. No degree is necessary to become a technician who will often get paid more to fix a machine, than the engineer who designed it!
I don't quite agree. Engineering is outputting a solution to a problem. Even though it's not trivial in a lot of cases, it can be automated.

Looking at the developments, even creative jobs aren't safe. It may take a little longer before humans are made obsolete in these areas, but it will happen sooner or later.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2017, 11:01:44 am »
Automation is only a threat to unskilled, lowtech jobs....
And they are fucked anyway, automation or relocalisation, those jobs dissapear anyway.

No degree is necessary to become a technician who will often get paid more to fix a machine, ...
No degree is necessary, +10 years of intrest, effort and experience is enough, and that starts at 12 years old.
Biggest mistake many cheap corporate types make, is to be blind about the differences between those "no degree" guys.
The question "what did you ever make, repair, assemble, take apart, try,... for yourself, without anyone asking for it ?" is an easy trick to rougly classify them.

If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2017, 11:06:34 am »
Automation is only a threat to unskilled, lowtech jobs. Engineers and technicians are the ones who will be designing, optimising and maintaining automated processes. No degree is necessary to become a technician who will often get paid more to fix a machine, than the engineer who designed it!
I don't quite agree. Engineering is outputting a solution to a problem. Even though it's not trivial in a lot of cases, it can be automated.

Looking at the developments, even creative jobs aren't safe. It may take a little longer before humans are made obsolete in these areas, but it will happen sooner or later.
Can you give any examples?

The office jobs which have been replaced with automation so far, haven't been the creative ones, mainly: draughtsmen, secretaries and administrative rolls and people are still required to operate the computers which replaced them. Engineers are still required to design machines, it's just they directly use the CAD software, rather than getting a draughtsmen to draw it.

So far, design and programming rolls haven't been automated and going by the lack of progress in real general artificial intelligence (not search and pattern recognition algorithms which many deem to be AI, which isn't) that won't happen any time soon.
 

Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2017, 11:16:46 am »
Mmmm, rolls.



Can't replace those with AI.
*Except AC/DC adapters on eBay. Avoid them all!
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2017, 11:30:31 am »
Now I want rolls!
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2017, 11:42:13 am »
The question "what did you ever make, repair, assemble, take apart, try,... for yourself, without anyone asking for it ?" is an easy trick to rougly classify them.

That's a question, and one discussed in the Asimov story noted in reply #51 above.

Questions that have been relevant in my career are "what have you created that nobody has done before?", "what are the problems with technology X, and what is needed to improve it?", "what do you want to create, and why?".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2017, 11:47:41 am »
I love how you say they're not protected and then proceed to list the titles as protected 

You fail to see the difference between the long words and the abbreviations.
Not difficult, try again.

I did say "title of engineer" to avoid having to go through the entire list.  |O But if you go full grammar nazi sure, then we'd have to call it honorific. But here's the actual relevant law: https://data-onderwijs.vlaanderen.be/edulex/document.aspx?docid=12722
:palm: Being engineer (and being called such) and having an academic engineering degree are 2 different things. Being one, does not necessarily require another. You can have an engineering degree and work at fast food restaurant. But there are some places in the world where cannot call yourself an engineer without having appropriate education.

FYI
Quote
A Master of Science degree in engineering It is an academic degree to be differentiated from a Master of Engineering degree. (abbreviated MSE, M.Sc.Eng. or MScEng) is a type of Master of Science degree awarded by universities in many countries.

So what was mentioned protected is not even engineering degree as such but academic degree. But seems you cannot see the difference.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2017, 12:15:49 pm »
Can you give any examples?

The office jobs which have been replaced with automation so far, haven't been the creative ones, mainly: draughtsmen, secretaries and administrative rolls and people are still required to operate the computers which replaced them. Engineers are still required to design machines, it's just they directly use the CAD software, rather than getting a draughtsmen to draw it.

So far, design and programming rolls haven't been automated and going by the lack of progress in real general artificial intelligence (not search and pattern recognition algorithms which many deem to be AI, which isn't) that won't happen any time soon.
An engineering problem is just that. If you input the correct parameters, software should be able to come up with the most ideal solution. You'll probably see a gradual shift from software aiding the engineer to software doing the engineering work, but in the end, a human is a weak link in the chain. Software is able to evaluate much more options much faster. Just like pilots are mostly obsolete now and ride along for emergency and regulatory purposes, the same will happen to engineers, until they are made truly obsolete.

I don't see this perceived lack of progess in regards to artificial intellegence either. There are numerous experiments where AI is tasked with something creative and while some of the results are horrible, other results are freightingly good. Currently they require input of work done by humans, but there is on reason they couldn't sustain their own cycle of creating things and feeding on the successes. You can teach a human creative thinking, and it appears you can teach AI too.

 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2017, 12:20:09 pm »
AI is good at cute mimicry of ideas it has been taught but spontaneous original thought as yet has not materialised at all. Until that happens it’s just a puppet of human intelligence.

If that does happen we are universally fucked.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2017, 12:28:48 pm »
AI is good at cute mimicry of ideas it has been taught but spontaneous original thought as yet has not materialised at all. Until that happens it’s just a puppet of human intelligence.

If that does happen we are universally fucked.
Your desciption of AI is a perfect description of the capabilities of humans too. Humans are mostly good at repeating and permutating existing ideas, which is exactly what AI does reasonably well and gets better at every day. Humans being capable of spontaneous original thought is romanticizing things. Humans love to assign all sorts of magical properties to themselves and their brains, but we're just fancy neural networks in bipedal flesh husks ourselves.

There's no reason AI couldn't use it's own output and the public response to it as its input, to do something like writing pop songs.
 

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2017, 12:47:36 pm »
Pop songs are by far the least original creations on the planet. You can generate that shit by feeding in data from things that sold and coming out with more things that sell. That's what Simon Cowell for example does.

Original thought is emergent and without basis as far as we understand at the moment. Fundamentally all thought and ideas came from somewhere else than an abstraction of existing ideas. 99.9% of humans merely assemble these thoughts in different patterns to get new ideas but there's something special under there and they haven't managed to work out yet. There are lots of papers out there. There has only been one report of this back in about 2009 and many papers were written on the matter. I don't have any citations as I'm not at work this week (yay!) :)

And I'm not talking about trivial pattern matching and weighting "AI" where you put old data in and new insights come out (that's what I do). That's not even AI; it's merely expert systems and simple algorithms applied to look for patterns. AI is just a marketing tab over that. Fundamentally my job is to oversee the design of these sorts of systems and there's no sign of emergent intelligence. Sometimes the insights are surprising and original but this is not intelligence; this is just us being surprised at how shit we are and slow at finding solutions. I'd expect a true AI to be as shit as we are, if not worse.

AI is mega hot topic at the moment so there's a lot of bollocks out there if I'm honest. 99.9% fluff and lies.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2017, 01:51:13 pm »
Again, 99% fluff and lies sounds about right for humans too  :P

Iterative processes have been able to develop new methods and aproaches for something, so you might call that original thought. It produces solutions for complex problems.



 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2017, 03:00:45 pm »
Can you give any examples?

The office jobs which have been replaced with automation so far, haven't been the creative ones, mainly: draughtsmen, secretaries and administrative rolls and people are still required to operate the computers which replaced them. Engineers are still required to design machines, it's just they directly use the CAD software, rather than getting a draughtsmen to draw it.

So far, design and programming rolls haven't been automated and going by the lack of progress in real general artificial intelligence (not search and pattern recognition algorithms which many deem to be AI, which isn't) that won't happen any time soon.
An engineering problem is just that. If you input the correct parameters, software should be able to come up with the most ideal solution. You'll probably see a gradual shift from software aiding the engineer to software doing the engineering work, but in the end, a human is a weak link in the chain. Software is able to evaluate much more options much faster. Just like pilots are mostly obsolete now and ride along for emergency and regulatory purposes, the same will happen to engineers, until they are made truly obsolete.

I don't see this perceived lack of progess in regards to artificial intellegence either. There are numerous experiments where AI is tasked with something creative and while some of the results are horrible, other results are freightingly good. Currently they require input of work done by humans, but there is on reason they couldn't sustain their own cycle of creating things and feeding on the successes. You can teach a human creative thinking, and it appears you can teach AI too.
Engineering is more than search and pattern recognition algorithms. It involves understanding actual concepts, something which computers can't yet do and progress in doing so has stalled for a long time. For example a skilled chess player will be good at similar strategy games and can easily learn to be better than most humans, with minimal learning involved, because they understand the concepts involved. A computer chess program, may be better than any human player, mainly due to brute force processing, rather than being smart and will need to be totally re-written for a different game. One cannot take a computer, spend a few minutes teaching it to play chess and it will become a grandmaster on its own. It took many years of development to create a superhuman chess program.

Again, 99% fluff and lies sounds about right for humans too  :P

Iterative processes have been able to develop new methods and aproaches for something, so you might call that original thought. It produces solutions for complex problems.
That's a somewhat brute force approach to problem solving, rather than smart. A big problem is it relies on models, which are often wrong or incomplete.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 03:07:22 pm by Hero999 »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2017, 03:25:15 pm »
Again, I disagree on both. Google developed an AI that can learn a game knowing the rules and playing it, rather than by being programmed to understand it or getting large datasets supplied. This AI beat the pants off the previous AlphaGo, which in turn beat the pants off one of the best human players. It learnt to play at this level within three days. More importantly, it should be able to learn itself other games without a lot of manual intervention too. You could argue whether this AI understands the concepts of the game, but you can't argue with the results. It simply works.

Humans also learn by brute force. We literally need to repeat something over and over to refine and hone our skills and that's exactly how this AI does it. Obviously, it can play a lot more matches than humans, so it learns quicker. There isn't a human who can be explained the rules of chess and suddenly is a chess master. He needs to go through the motions.

Solving engineering problems isn't much different. You have a limited set of constraints and a computer can optimize within them. It's probably already quite feasible to have AI design a bridge that's both as strong as needed and as cheap as possible.

"Silver explained that as Zero played itself, it rediscovered Go strategies developed by humans over millennia. “It started off playing very naively like a human beginner, [but] over time it played games which were hard to differentiate from human professionals,” he said. The program hit upon a number of well-known patterns and variations during self-play, before developing never-before-seen stratagems. “It found these human moves, it tried them, then ultimately it found something it prefers,” he said. As with earlier versions of AlphaGo, DeepMind hopes Zero will act as an inspiration to professional human players, suggesting new moves and stratagems for them to incorporate into their game. "

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/18/16495548/deepmind-ai-go-alphago-zero-self-taught
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2017, 03:30:17 pm »
If that AI takes off too fast, I can't help but wonder what if it learns the rules of the "encryption game" and no password/connection is safe anymore... :o
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2017, 03:39:02 pm »
If that AI takes off too fast, I can't help but wonder what if it learns the rules of the "encryption game" and no password/connection is safe anymore... :o
Encryption algorithms are specifically chosen not to have easy solutions, but there might be a shortcut that got overlooked. That wouldn't apply to all encryption algorithms though, so it would be bad but not catastrophic.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2017, 03:42:50 pm »
Again, I disagree on both. Google developed an AI that can learn a game knowing the rules and playing it, rather than by being programmed to understand it or getting large datasets supplied. This AI beat the pants off the previous AlphaGo, which in turn beat the pants off one of the best human players. It learnt to play at this level within three days. More importantly, it should be able to learn itself other games without a lot of manual intervention too. You could argue whether this AI understands the concepts of the game, but you can't argue with the results. It simply works.

Humans also learn by brute force. We literally need to repeat something over and over to refine and hone our skills and that's exactly how this AI does it. Obviously, it can play a lot more matches than humans, so it learns quicker. There isn't a human who can be explained the rules of chess and suddenly is a chess master. He needs to go through the motions.

Solving engineering problems isn't much different. You have a limited set of constraints and a computer can optimize within them. It's probably already quite feasible to have AI design a bridge that's both as strong as needed and as cheap as possible.

"Silver explained that as Zero played itself, it rediscovered Go strategies developed by humans over millennia. “It started off playing very naively like a human beginner, [but] over time it played games which were hard to differentiate from human professionals,” he said. The program hit upon a number of well-known patterns and variations during self-play, before developing never-before-seen stratagems. “It found these human moves, it tried them, then ultimately it found something it prefers,” he said. As with earlier versions of AlphaGo, DeepMind hopes Zero will act as an inspiration to professional human players, suggesting new moves and stratagems for them to incorporate into their game. "

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/18/16495548/deepmind-ai-go-alphago-zero-self-taught
I can see your point but I think understanding concepts is the crucial part of AI which is missing. For example one can learn the concept of gravity and they can intuitively apply it to other things, be it designing a bridge or launching a rocket. A human will know what will work and what won't, intuitively, without having to try it out. Being smart can eliminate a lot of trial and error.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2017, 04:01:58 pm »
I can see your point but I think understanding concepts is the crucial part of AI which is missing. For example one can learn the concept of gravity and they can intuitively apply it to other things, be it designing a bridge or launching a rocket. A human will know what will work and what won't, intuitively, without having to try it out. Being smart can eliminate a lot of trial and error.
I think you would need to define what "understanding" means. What it really means, while being properly specific. In humans intuition just means the ability to subconciously calculate a predicted outcome after many experiences with a phenomena. The AI can calculate a predicted outcome after many experiences with a phenomena.

I understand where you're coming from, because it "feels" different when a computer does it. But then I have to remind myself that we're just fancy neural networks and that out bodies don't seem to do something computers won't be able to do too. It's just hardware versus hardware. Brains just do it with a sophistication and complexity as of yet unmatched by computers.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2017, 04:20:02 pm »
I can see your point but I think understanding concepts is the crucial part of AI which is missing. For example one can learn the concept of gravity and they can intuitively apply it to other things, be it designing a bridge or launching a rocket. A human will know what will work and what won't, intuitively, without having to try it out. Being smart can eliminate a lot of trial and error.
I think you would need to define what "understanding" means. What it really means, while being properly specific. In humans intuition just means the ability to subconciously calculate a predicted outcome after many experiences with a phenomena. The AI can calculate a predicted outcome after many experiences with a phenomena.

I understand where you're coming from, because it "feels" different when a computer does it. But then I have to remind myself that we're just fancy neural networks and that out bodies don't seem to do something computers won't be able to do too. It's just hardware versus hardware. Brains just do it with a sophistication and complexity as of yet unmatched by computers.
I think it's very difficult to define intelligence and understanding, which is part of the problem.

Reading up about AlphaGo Zero has made me realise how things in the field of AI have improved, since I studied it. However, until I can get a computer to design a circuit, or write a program to do X for me, with minimal input, I'll remain sceptical about general AI.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 04:22:00 pm by Hero999 »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2017, 04:22:40 pm »
However, until I can get a computer to design a circuit, or write a program to do X for me, with minimal input, I'll remain sceptical about general AI.
At that point you won't be required.
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2017, 04:34:04 pm »
We will to arm ourselves against our mechanised overlords  :-DD
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2017, 04:56:21 pm »
However, until I can get a computer to design a circuit, or write a program to do X for me, with minimal input, I'll remain sceptical about general AI.
At that point you won't be required.
I'm not worried. I'll be either dead or retired, long before that happens.

People have made all sorts of optimistic predictions about general AI, since the invention of computers, yet so far they've failed to come true. AI has progressed a lot since then, but like anything else, it's different to what was predicted.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #75 on: December 28, 2017, 05:02:14 pm »
However, until I can get a computer to design a circuit, or write a program to do X for me, with minimal input, I'll remain sceptical about general AI.
At that point you won't be required.
I'm not worried. I'll be either dead or retired, long before that happens.

People have made all sorts of optimistic predictions about general AI, since the invention of computers, yet so far they've failed to come true. AI has progressed a lot since then, but like anything else, it's different to what was predicted.
Considering you are only 35 according to your profile, I wouldn't be so sure. AI is development is exponentially accelerating right now.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 05:04:34 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2017, 05:12:09 pm »
However, until I can get a computer to design a circuit, or write a program to do X for me, with minimal input, I'll remain sceptical about general AI.
At that point you won't be required.
I'm not worried. I'll be either dead or retired, long before that happens.

People have made all sorts of optimistic predictions about general AI, since the invention of computers, yet so far they've failed to come true. AI has progressed a lot since then, but like anything else, it's different to what was predicted.
Considering you are only 35 according to your profile, I wouldn't be so sure. AI is development is exponentially accelerating right not.
I base a lot of my opinions on research from the past. AI development has gone through various periods of growth. The prediction has always been for general AI to appear in the next 20 years. I think the next 50 years is being optimistic, even at today's rate of development.

I'd like to be wrong. General AI will solve many of the world's problems. I don't feel threatened by AI. I'm still confident I'll be able to find a job, in future.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2017, 05:35:27 pm »
I base a lot of my opinions on research from the past. AI development has gone through various periods of growth. The prediction has always been for general AI to appear in the next 20 years. I think the next 50 years is being optimistic, even at today's rate of development.

I'd like to be wrong. General AI will solve many of the world's problems. I don't feel threatened by AI. I'm still confident I'll be able to find a job, in future.
10 years ago there was basically nothing, today we have cars which can drive on their own.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2017, 06:12:03 pm »
I base a lot of my opinions on research from the past. AI development has gone through various periods of growth. The prediction has always been for general AI to appear in the next 20 years. I think the next 50 years is being optimistic, even at today's rate of development.

I'd like to be wrong. General AI will solve many of the world's problems. I don't feel threatened by AI. I'm still confident I'll be able to find a job, in future.
10 years ago there was basically nothing, today we have cars which can drive on their own.
Self driving cars are not an example of general AI and are not widespread. There are a few self-driving cars which will not work everywhere. Self-driving locomotives aren't even widespread and that's theoretically mush easier to implement.

And there was a lot of AI 10 years ago, if you care to look.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2017, 07:02:27 pm »
And there was a lot of AI 10 years ago, if you care to look.
Ai is a broad term, a lot of things fall under that term. If we talk about AI where serious machine learning is involved, there was barely any. What was available then is a joke compared to what is available now.
https://enterprise.microsoft.com/en-ca/articles/industries/microsoft-in-business/grow-your-business-with-microsoft-ai/

 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2017, 07:05:55 pm »
Hmm Microsoft sponsored AI offering statistics...

Compare to windows phone sales projections  :-DD
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2017, 07:19:07 pm »
Hmm Microsoft sponsored AI offering statistics...

Compare to windows phone sales projections  :-DD
You may laugh but AI driven advertising already empties peoples pockets quiet successfully.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2017, 07:21:16 pm »
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2017, 07:26:33 pm »
Further comments - analysts are full of shit when it comes to things that don't exist yet.

I am working in a sector dominated by machine learning and usefulness is very hyper-inflated because it brings in revenue. It's another bubble which will burst.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2017, 07:32:42 pm »
Further comments - analysts are full of shit when it comes to things that don't exist yet.
It includes numbers which already happened. And those numbers show that AI market was basically non existent a few years ago and has grown twice in the last year only.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 07:35:32 pm by wraper »
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2017, 07:34:37 pm »
Yes but the data points are very very few and there's some fuzzy description of what is "AI" and what is "machine learning" which are basically algorithmic / decision tree based. No autonomy there. Just teaching a monkey to dance.

That's like saying on Monday I took one step, Tuesday I took two steps and Wednesday I took four steps. Ergo next year I'll be on Mars.

It wasn't long ago that Ray Kurzweil was going on about the singularity and crazy guarantees of what our future holds. That's where the ideology breaks down; we haven't delivered anything notable yet, just propped up a few failing industries (advertising) for a few more years.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 07:36:19 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #86 on: December 28, 2017, 07:38:42 pm »
That's like saying on Monday I took one step, Tuesday I took two steps and Wednesday I took four steps. Ergo next year I'll be on Mars.

Too many people aren't on planet earth :(
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online bd139

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« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2017, 07:58:01 pm »
Indeed.

I think the problem with current marketing is that you need a problem that it is applicable to at the point of deciding to use it which is a very narrow subset of reality. Most problems can be solved with little or no intelligence. Actually even better than that, when you apply intelligence to something, be it human, machine learning or otherwise, it actually compromises the result significantly because it removes all determinism. You can't reason always as to why something happened and that's not something people can cope with.

I actually watched a commissions matching company burn through 200,000 financial commissions records with their "AI" system which got about a 50% hit rate and 70% certainty which they said was remarkable. For AI it was. But their competitor had a 95% hit rate with 90% certainty with no intelligence at all. No AI meat there; just string matching in SQL and a stemming algorithm.

The worst thing about the "AI" based system was that the rate of failure changed, sometimes better, sometimes worse as it was reacting to real data entered by dumbasses. On a bad day it created more work for humans to unpick than it did not existing.

Microsoft like to sell it as a use case for everything and project that. Same thing they did with their WS-* bollocks for distributed architecture (WCF, WPF, WWF etc).

It's not a bag of new tricks, it's a monkey with a gun if you put it in the wrong room.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 08:00:08 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2017, 08:29:03 pm »
I actually watched a commissions matching company burn through 200,000 financial commissions records with their "AI" system which got about a 50% hit rate and 70% certainty which they said was remarkable. For AI it was. But their competitor had a 95% hit rate with 90% certainty with no intelligence at all. No AI meat there; just string matching in SQL and a stemming algorithm.
For tesla autopilot it works pretty well. Or facebook facial recognition. If someone does crappy job, it does not tell about industry in a whole.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2017, 08:30:56 pm »
I'm not worried. I'll be either dead or retired, long before that happens.

People have made all sorts of optimistic predictions about general AI, since the invention of computers, yet so far they've failed to come true. AI has progressed a lot since then, but like anything else, it's different to what was predicted.
It's that classical tale of overestimating what'll happen in 20 years and underestimating what's possible in 50. Technology tends to develop exponentially, so even if developments have been disappointing so far, which I don't think they are, it's pretty much what's to be expected. That's not some bullshit selling analyst predictions either, technology in general does that consistently and AI is much too broad and already too profitable to fail at this point. I won't make the mistake of being overly optimistic, but it's hard to not see it change society as we know it within most of our lives and probably working lives.
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #90 on: December 28, 2017, 08:33:10 pm »
I actually watched a commissions matching company burn through 200,000 financial commissions records with their "AI" system which got about a 50% hit rate and 70% certainty which they said was remarkable. For AI it was. But their competitor had a 95% hit rate with 90% certainty with no intelligence at all. No AI meat there; just string matching in SQL and a stemming algorithm.
For tesla autopilot it works pretty well. Or facebook facial recognition. If someone does crappy job, it does not tell about industry in a whole.

If someone does a crappy job it vanishes without even a puff of smoke.

 

Offline ebastler

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #91 on: December 28, 2017, 08:58:38 pm »
Here you go if you don't trust microsoft:
https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/artificial-intelligence-ai-market


Ahh -- giving four significant digits on those guesstimates makes the data so much more credible!  :P
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2017, 09:02:30 pm »
Ahh -- giving four significant digits on those guesstimates makes the data so much more credible!  :P
It makes it 214,839% more credible and 161,893% more relevant.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #93 on: December 28, 2017, 09:15:39 pm »
Further comments - analysts are full of shit when it comes to things that don't exist yet.
It includes numbers which already happened. And those numbers show that AI market was basically non existent a few years ago and has grown twice in the last year only.
The market is historically poor at predicting this kind of thing. Look up the dot com bubble.
I'm not worried. I'll be either dead or retired, long before that happens.

People have made all sorts of optimistic predictions about general AI, since the invention of computers, yet so far they've failed to come true. AI has progressed a lot since then, but like anything else, it's different to what was predicted.
It's that classical tale of overestimating what'll happen in 20 years and underestimating what's possible in 50. Technology tends to develop exponentially, so even if developments have been disappointing so far, which I don't think they are, it's pretty much what's to be expected. That's not some bullshit selling analyst predictions either, technology in general does that consistently and AI is much too broad and already too profitable to fail at this point. I won't make the mistake of being overly optimistic, but it's hard to not see it change society as we know it within most of our lives and probably working lives.
I agree with you there. The predictions made 50 years ago underestimated lots of things, overestimated others and didn't even foresee most things we have today.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #94 on: December 30, 2017, 07:29:00 am »
Further comments - analysts are full of shit when it comes to things that don't exist yet.

I am working in a sector dominated by machine learning and usefulness is very hyper-inflated because it brings in revenue. It's another bubble which will burst.

I would have to agree. I think AI will find many uses, but I think much of it will be subtle. Currently AI is a fad that is being hyped to the stratosphere much like the internet was in the early 2000's. Obviously the internet is still around, but the bubble burst and a lot of the hype collapsed.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2017, 07:43:37 am »
Automation is only a threat to unskilled, lowtech jobs. Engineers and technicians are the ones who will be designing, optimising and maintaining automated processes. No degree is necessary to become a technician who will often get paid more to fix a machine, than the engineer who designed it!

I don't think that's the case in the US. Generally the "Technician" job title pays 50%-70% what the "Engineer" title pays, depends on the company of course.

I also wouldn't bet on automation only replacing unskilled low tech jobs. Automation is already widely used within the tech industry, and has directly and indirectly led to many thousands of lost engineering and QA jobs.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #96 on: December 30, 2017, 07:47:14 am »
In a company, what matters is that the team has an complementary set of skills and personalities, so that each person covers the other people's weaknesses.

If only companies like Google would learn this. For all their talk about diversity, they hire virtually one single type of person, same degree, same personality type, they are so focused on hiring the smartest of the smart people that they forget about common sense.
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #97 on: December 30, 2017, 08:51:44 am »
On a positive note it keeps that type of person off the market so we don’t have to waste hours on interviewing them :)
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2017, 09:32:27 am »
I also struggled to finish college due to my "incompatibility" to the academic education system, but in the end I managed to finish it, and I am very proud of it now :) And as looking back I think it was profitable for me too.
HP 1720A scope with HP 1120A probe, EMG 12563 pulse generator, EMG 1257 function generator, MEV TR-1660C bench multimeter
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2017, 10:19:16 am »
I also struggled to finish college due to my "incompatibility" to the academic education system, but in the end I managed to finish it, and I am very proud of it now :) And as looking back I think it was profitable for me too.

Congratulations, not only on succeeding but also on the determination to succeed at something you found difficult. That determination can be valuable. (So can the academic education, as you seem to know :) )
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2017, 12:55:27 pm »
Further comments - analysts are full of shit when it comes to things that don't exist yet.

I am working in a sector dominated by machine learning and usefulness is very hyper-inflated because it brings in revenue. It's another bubble which will burst.

I would have to agree. I think AI will find many uses, but I think much of it will be subtle. Currently AI is a fad that is being hyped to the stratosphere much like the internet was in the early 2000's. Obviously the internet is still around, but the bubble burst and a lot of the hype collapsed.
Internet is not only here but is much more than what was expected from it when that bubble collapsed.
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2017, 01:34:57 pm »
Yes and no. If we remove everything of little significance and all the destructive stuff (facebook), it's about the same as what it was in the dot com bust.

Granted the interface is a little more convenient than my old Handspring Treo... ;)
 

Offline wraper

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2017, 02:05:50 pm »
Yes and no. If we remove everything of little significance and all the destructive stuff (facebook), it's about the same as what it was in the dot com bust.

Granted the interface is a little more convenient than my old Handspring Treo... ;)
Internet destroyed physical media such as CD's and DVDs, most of the games movies are now delivered via internet rather than physical media. Landline telephone became an addition to internet and not the other way around. Many homes here don't even have a landline telephone anymore. Non food physical sales took a huge hit from e-commerce. Say, most of electronics are sold online. Heck, look at electronic parts, who still buys them from physical stores in serious quantities? Even if I go to such, I order parts through internet and collect them later. Even if you look at physical store, most of it's behind the scenes operations involve internet.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 02:20:01 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2017, 04:50:52 pm »
Yes and no. If we remove everything of little significance and all the destructive stuff (facebook), it's about the same as what it was in the dot com bust.

Granted the interface is a little more convenient than my old Handspring Treo... ;)
I depends on what you would call "of little significance", but you'd have to pile on an awful lot of things that changed society as a whole to get that definition to work out. The internet has impacted the modern world in almost every aspect big and small the past 15 years. Even politics and international affairs will never be the same again.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2017, 05:40:10 pm »
Yes the Internet changed everything, but in a totally different way than anyone predicted.
 
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Offline vodka

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2017, 07:19:53 pm »
Yes and no. If we remove everything of little significance and all the destructive stuff (facebook), it's about the same as what it was in the dot com bust.

Granted the interface is a little more convenient than my old Handspring Treo... ;)
Internet destroyed physical media such as CD's and DVDs, most of the games movies are now delivered via internet rather than physical media. Landline telephone became an addition to internet and not the other way around. Many homes here don't even have a landline telephone anymore. Non food physical sales took a huge hit from e-commerce. Say, most of electronics are sold online. Heck, look at electronic parts, who still buys them from physical stores in serious quantities? Even if I go to such, I order parts through internet and collect them later. Even if you look at physical store, most of it's behind the scenes operations involve internet.

Internet hasn't destroyed the physical media. Internet changed the business model of the  corporations decreasing prices of the products. If you realize that having a DVD on a shop is more expensive by the costs of distribution plus the retail's comission besides that the customers have to go to the shop. The final cost ascend to 50% or  70 % more than if you request by e-shop.

I haven't yet found anybody that their PCs or smartphones  are like the Mainframe Terminals, i want to say permanently connected to a server for working with a SO.
 

Offline vodka

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2017, 08:26:43 pm »
On a positive note it keeps that type of person off the market so we don’t have to waste hours on interviewing them :)

Simply i hate these automation systems and their designers:

The last monday, i recieved a letter with an invitation with a psychotechnical test (gamification).

Quote
We have recently received your application for the role of Your first job in A****** Technology - Barcelona. We would like to invite you to the first step of our Digital Assessment process.

 

Pymetrics is a gamified assessment that applies neuroscience & big data to candidate evaluation. The experience consists of 12 neuroscience-based games, and it will take you approximately 25 minutes to complete.

The games measure key cognitive traits & provide a snapshot of a person's unique characteristics.

 

You will be able to use your mobile app IS on Android & IOS as well as your desktop.

If you are on mobile, please follow ALL the steps below:

1.    Download the Pymetrics mobile app: pymetrics.com/downloads/
2.    Do not register yet!
3.    Before registering on the app, come back to this email and hit the link below (using your mobile device)

IT IS IMPORTANT TO USE THE LINK IN THIS EMAIL FOR YOUR RESULTS TO BE SENT TO US. 

 

To get started, please click here.

Remember: Unless you already have a Pymetrics account, you will need to create a new account using your email address and create a new password.

Please complete your assessment within 3 days of receiving this invitation.

 

Next steps

After completing the games, you will get an overview from Pymetrics with your personalized insights. Please, don’t worry about sending these to us, we will get them too, directly from Pymetrics.

 

If you match at least one of a number of opportunities, we will invite you to the next step. Please note that you only need to complete Pymetrics games once, so if you have done these before (within the last eleven months), please go ahead and click on the link, log in and your results will automatically come through to us.

 

 

We would like to thank you again for your interest in A******.

 

A****** Recruiting

So , i got the Pymetric and i created a false account for training. I completed  the 12 willing test.  Then , i had curiosity and clicked "Click here".Automatically
, I opened the false account with Pymetric.
I thought , these guys won't be such idiots of the sending the results of the test with account false (Not match email neither the names and surname with the offered inscribed). 

6 hours after i recieved a new letter and i confirmed my suspicios: The world is FULL OF THE IDIOTS

Quote
Thank you so much for participating in our recruiting journey so far. 

We wish we had better news, but after completing your digital assessment(s), we have decided to pursue other candidates whose backgrounds and potential fit are better aligned with the requirements of this role.

We understand that looking for a new position can be complex, time consuming and sometimes even challenging so we appreciate the time and energy you have invested in us so far. Although we will not be moving forward at this time, we’d like to stay in touch for potential opportunities in the future. Please connect with us on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Twitter.

We’re continually hiring and our needs change over time, so please keep your information up to date. We may reach out should your profile better fit one of our future opportunities.

Thank you for your interest in A******!

No warning message ,not testing the email neither the names and surnames. THAT IS A TOTAL BOTCHED
 

Online bd139

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2017, 09:06:55 pm »
To be fair the automation there is a complete copy of the humans who designed it.
Historically some dunce had to run the answers through a spreadsheet.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2017, 10:00:43 pm »
No warning message ,not testing the email neither the names and surnames. THAT IS A TOTAL BOTCHED

I am sorry that you did not get futher with your job application at this company. (Well, maybe it does not matter so much -- you don't seem to consider them as an employer any more after this experience...)  BUT:

It seems to me that the automated test result submission was not "botched", but worked as intended. I assume Pymetrics do not want you to practice under a dummy account, as this would distort your test results. So they analyse the first set of results which you generated on your device. They may even have stored a unique device ID for your mobile or PC in their database now, to prevent you from setting up further practice accounts.

Next time, I recommend using a practice device too, and then connecting from a different device to run and submit your "real" test. This time round, I think the test designers caught you out.  ::)
 

Offline hermit

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2017, 10:55:51 pm »
I'm sure the code was the link they sent.    Use the link and it is done regardless of the device.  Providing the false information may have been an immediate disqualification when the prospective employer got the results and the data didn't match.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 11:00:50 pm by hermit »
 

Offline rhb

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #110 on: December 31, 2017, 02:50:34 am »
It's probably just because I'm old and over educated, but I can't imagine working for such a company.  I'd never fill out such an application except as a prank. 

Even at really good companies, HR tends to be a nightmare.  If I wanted a job at a company and didn't already know someone, I'd find out where people who worked there went evenings and weekends and start hanging out there as much as I could.  It might require taking down license plate numbers at the company parking lot and then cruising the night club parking lots, but should not be hard even if a lot of people ride the bus to work.  But you do need to be convincingly capable once you meet someone.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2017, 02:55:48 am »
It's probably just because I'm old and over educated, but I can't imagine working for such a company.  I'd never fill out such an application except as a prank. 

Even at really good companies, HR tends to be a nightmare.  If I wanted a job at a company and didn't already know someone, I'd find out where people who worked there went evenings and weekends and start hanging out there as much as I could.  It might require taking down license plate numbers at the company parking lot and then cruising the night club parking lots, but should not be hard even if a lot of people ride the bus to work.  But you do need to be convincingly capable once you meet someone.
You'd spend endless hours getting into contact with an office drone who can't pull any strings?
 

Offline rhb

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2017, 03:06:40 am »
You'd spend endless hours getting into contact with an office drone who can't pull any strings?

Doesn't take too long to figure out who the tech people are and where they hang out.  When I worked for Amoco in New Orleans,  Cooter Brown's at River Bend was the Friday quitting time destination for the geoscience crowd.  A bit harder if you're older, but by then you should already have personal contacts.
 

Offline hermit

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #113 on: December 31, 2017, 03:34:16 am »
It's probably just because I'm old and over educated, but I can't imagine working for such a company.  I'd never fill out such an application except as a prank. 

Even at really good companies, HR tends to be a nightmare.  If I wanted a job at a company and didn't already know someone, I'd find out where people who worked there went evenings and weekends and start hanging out there as much as I could.  It might require taking down license plate numbers at the company parking lot and then cruising the night club parking lots, but should not be hard even if a lot of people ride the bus to work.  But you do need to be convincingly capable once you meet someone.
You'd spend endless hours getting into contact with an office drone who can't pull any strings?
Hell, I'd avoid testing too if I were a friggin stalker.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: I quit university and now I'm doing a job I love!
« Reply #114 on: December 31, 2017, 04:59:52 am »
Getting to know an "office drone" has much better odds of landing a job at a specific company than interviewing with a computer program.  But, hey, lots of people find computer therapists like Eliza helpful.  Personally, I prefer talking to real people.  But I'm an old guy, so I obviously don't know anything.  If I did, I would be young. Right?
 
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