Identify this car?

[james_s]

If this is too far off topic please feel free to delete it but I'm hoping with enough eyeballs someone out there can identify the make, model and possibly even year of the car that stops at the end of my driveway before a blonde girl gets out, runs up and snatches the mail right off my porch then hops into the car which drives off before her foot is even off the ground. I have filed a report with the local sheriff and am going to provide any additional information I can get.

https://youtu.be/aSYq7Vwm5Mg


While I'm extremely annoyed, the funny part of all this is that the main thing that was stolen was a package of empty priority mail shipping boxes that anyone can order free of charge from the USPS. I'm super annoyed though because I have a secure locking mailbox out by the street but the mailman simply left my mail right in plain sight on my front porch when he delivered the boxes! I've lived here 15 years and this is the first time I've ever had anything stolen. Naturally it happens the one day this week that I was at the office downtown rather than working from home.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Hard to make out what car, but this..





^ video contains Nord VPN ad. 

[Psi]

I rotated the video and zoomed in on the section that shows the car.
Might be easier for people to identify it.

Its likely a crime of opportunity. They probably drove past your house on their way home.
So they will likely drive past again. If you setup another camera with a better view and review the footage each day you might be able to catch the same car and get the licence plate.
Those rims look like they may not be stock. So that could help.

[DimitriP]

The good news is that there are a lot less dark station wagons than  there sedans, suv's , trucks and minivans.
Have you checked with neighbors in case their cameras caught a better view ?

The license plate is in the picture but way too fuzzy.
I yelled "enhance!" to my computer and all it gave me was a big fuzzy blob. It works much better in the movies

[Ed.Kloonk]

The license plate is in the picture but way too fuzzy.
I yelled "enhance!" to my computer and all it gave me was a big fuzzy blob. It works much better in the movies

Get that guy from CSI on it! 

[maginnovision]

Sort of looks like a Rav4? really odd angle.

[Rerouter]

my mind is saying Mazda,

edit: looks like the new 2019 model rav4,

[BrianHG]

my mind is saying Mazda,

edit: looks like the new 2019 model rav4,

Damn, good eye.... 

My question is: WTF is anyone who can afford such a car doing going around stealing mail and blank empty boxes???

[Rerouter]

Well they have to pay the installments somehow

Edit: Its only been out for 1 year, so in a geographical area, you likely have only a small number of suspects.

As to how to find stuff like this, google is getting smarter... you can add a car model and an angle, like "side" or "rear", and it will serve up images from that angle....
In the past it was much harder, having to pull tricks like exporting frames and stitching them in a panorama program. to get the entire vehicle in frame to compare and reduce the noise a bit.

[Black Phoenix]

The car itself is the Mazda CX-9



The back is similar to the Rav4 but the back headlight curves upwards as the one in the video and the brake light is round, not downwards and slotted as the Rav4. Plus that wheel rim is very common in other Mazda Models.

[Twoflower]

A small montage of few frames from that video. Hope that helps.

[Rerouter]

ok, then mid 2016-2019, still a very new vehicle.

[BrianHG]

The car itself is the Mazda CX-9



The back is similar to the Rav4 but the back headlight curves upwards as the one in the video and the brake light is round, not downwards and slotted as the Rav4. Plus that wheel rim is very common in other Mazda Models.

Better eye....  The metal behind the rear window is a closer match to the video compared to the thick RAV4's window.

[Psi]

One thing i just noticed in the video, It has two mount points on the roof.
Could be the typical rails on a mazda CX-9.
They are adjusted to a non-standard position.

Also, I stitched the whole car together badly, but it might help.

[BrianHG]

The tail lights still don not match the tail lights in the Mazda CX-9 photos.  Maybe a different year....

[Psi]

more like these 2014 CX-5 lights

One thing that still puzzles me is the distance between the number plate and the rear window.
It's quite short, it doesnt look big enough for a Mazda.
They have more space there plus room for the mazda logo.

[nctnico]

If this is too far off topic please feel free to delete it but I'm hoping with enough eyeballs someone out there can identify the make, model and possibly even year of the car that stops at the end of my driveway before a blonde girl gets out, runs up and snatches the mail right off my porch then hops into the car which drives off before her foot is even off the ground. I have filed a report with the local sheriff and am going to provide any additional information I can get.

For starters you have to move your camera so it catches the face of anyone entering your property.

[Psi]

ok, My guess is a 2016 Mazda CX-9

[BrianHG]

ok, My guess is a 2016 Mazda CX-9


(Attachment Link)

The length, position, and mounting of the rear window wiper blade finally matches in the 2 photos...

[james_s]

Wow you guys are great, I knew I came to the right place, I'll pass this thread on to the police officer handling the case. Mail theft is a federal crime.

I live on a dead end street, my house is not on the way to anywhere. I got in touch with a neighbor who had an Amazon package swiped by the same girls, he said he has better footage of the car and a glimpse of the driver. I'm going to put him in touch with the deputy I talked to last night.

[james_s]

If this is too far off topic please feel free to delete it but I'm hoping with enough eyeballs someone out there can identify the make, model and possibly even year of the car that stops at the end of my driveway before a blonde girl gets out, runs up and snatches the mail right off my porch then hops into the car which drives off before her foot is even off the ground. I have filed a report with the local sheriff and am going to provide any additional information I can get.

For starters you have to move your camera so it catches the face of anyone entering your property.

There are physical constraints on where I can place cameras and everything is a compromise. I have others but this one happened to capture the best view.

The girls obviously anticipated there being cameras because the grabber covered her face the whole time and the driver stopped the car out in the street, had they driven onto my property I'd have good footage of their license plate but they didn't. Of course with the benefit of hindsight I could easily place a camera in a better location but then it could easily be worse for another incident.

[tooki]

Man, how pathetic must one be to be stealing others’ mail?!?

Any chance of hiding another camera in a tree or something where it can catch license plates?

[Syntax Error]

@james_s: Sorry to read you were targetted by this vermin. Seems to be quite a problem over there in the USA.

I understand the position of the rail mounts on the CX9 depends on the roof option. This one (I think) has the (none hard top) skylight option, because the front mounts are located midway.

The gait (walking) of the thief, is that of a mid-teenage to mid-twenties female; someone who might go jogging in the park, but is not a serious athlete. She hid her face but not the color of her trainers of shape of her a*. The thirty second pause in the road was probably to put on her 'disguise'. And if that's a wig, she's likely to be a brunette. Just feel sorry for her, in that she'll be in the criminal justice system for stealing empty packets.

Happy hunting 

edit: It's ambiguous in the image, but is that someone sat in the back wearing a white baseball cap?

[tooki]

Also, does USPS offer any kind of delivery management? (I’ve been living outside of USA for 10 years, so I’m not up to speed). Swiss Post has this, where you register, and then for any deliveries that can’t be deposited into the locked part of the mailbox (be it due to size, or because of requiring a signature, as in registered mail), I get an email and text message, and then can log into the website and reschedule, redirect, or hold the item. (Or approve it to be left in the building foyer, if it’s not especially valuable.)

I wanna say that UPS and FedEx have similar services, too.

[Black Phoenix]

If this is too far off topic please feel free to delete it but I'm hoping with enough eyeballs someone out there can identify the make, model and possibly even year of the car that stops at the end of my driveway before a blonde girl gets out, runs up and snatches the mail right off my porch then hops into the car which drives off before her foot is even off the ground. I have filed a report with the local sheriff and am going to provide any additional information I can get.

For starters you have to move your camera so it catches the face of anyone entering your property.

There are physical constraints on where I can place cameras and everything is a compromise. I have others but this one happened to capture the best view.

The girls obviously anticipated there being cameras because the grabber covered her face the whole time and the driver stopped the car out in the street, had they driven onto my property I'd have good footage of their license plate but they didn't. Of course with the benefit of hindsight I could easily place a camera in a better location but then it could easily be worse for another incident.

In Portugal that would be impossible to change the camera position and show a street, regarding privacy laws:

Pode um cidadão instalar câmaras de vigilância em redor da sua residência?

Sim, mas as câmaras deverão ser colocadas de forma a garantir a protecção da privacidade de outros cidadãos.

Envolvendo a videovigilância intrusão ou restrições na área dos direitos, liberdades e garantias — por exemplo, os direitos à imagem, à liberdade de movimentos e à reserva da vida privada e familiar —, cabe à lei decidir em que medida estes sistemas podem ser utilizados e, em especial, assegurar que as restrições se limitam ao necessário para salvaguardar outros interesses fundamentais.

Assim, a colocação das câmaras de vigilância deve ser feita de forma a que estas apenas abranjam a sua propriedade, o que exclui a captação de imagens da via pública, de propriedades de terceiros ou caminhos de uso comum (e.g., servidões de passagem).

Para além disso, a videovigilância efectuada por recurso às referidas câmaras deve realizar‑se segundo determinadas condições técnicas, o que implica a contratação de profissionais ou empresas de segurança privada, munidos de licença e alvará válidos, os quais podem então montar o sistema.

Translation:

Can a citizen install surveillance cameras around their home?

Yes, but cameras should be placed to ensure the protection of the privacy of other citizens.

Involving intrusion video surveillance or restrictions in the area of ​​rights, freedoms and guarantees - for example, rights to image, freedom of movement and the reservation of private and family life - it is up to the law to decide to what extent these systems can be used and in particular, ensure that restrictions are limited to what is necessary to safeguard other fundamental interests.

Thus, the placement of the surveillance cameras should be such that they only cover their property, which excludes the capture of roadway images, third party properties or commonly used paths (e.g., Rights-of-way).

In addition, video surveillance using such cameras must be carried out under certain technical conditions, which entails the hiring of valid private security professionals or companies, who may then set up the system.

in https://www.direitosedeveres.pt/q/o-cidadao-o-estado-e-as-instituicoes-internacionais/seguranca/pode-um-cidadao-instalar-camaras-de-vigilancia-em-redor-da-sua-residencia

[Mr. Scram]

my mind is saying Mazda,

edit: looks like the new 2019 model rav4,

The backlights look very different.

[Mr. Scram]

ok, My guess is a 2016 Mazda CX-9


(Attachment Link)

The license plate cubby-hole doesn't seem to be the same.

[tooki]

In Portugal that would be impossible to change the camera position and show a street, regarding privacy laws:

Yep. Here in Switzerland it would also be illegal. (Indeed, dash cams are a legal gray area here, which the law has yet to adapt to.) But the OP is in USA, where filming in public is legal.

(IMHO, USA is loooooong overdue for some basic privacy and data protection laws, but that’s a whole separate topic for some other venue than eevblog.)

[Mr. Scram]

There may be enough frames to do some stacking to improve picture quality. People are a bunch of dicks.

[Black Phoenix]

In Portugal that would be impossible to change the camera position and show a street, regarding privacy laws:

Yep. Here in Switzerland it would also be illegal. (Indeed, dash cams are a legal gray area here, which the law has yet to adapt to.) But the OP is in USA, where filming in public is legal.

(IMHO, USA is loooooong overdue for some basic privacy and data protection laws, but that’s a whole separate topic for some other venue than eevblog.)

I'm not totally sure but dash cameras and Go Pro cameras on the motorcycles are now being used by their respective drivers, but insurance doesn't accept the images as proof in case of accident. And images can't be used to sue the other driver without the police taking care of the case and be on site.

To be sincere in this case, I would love that Portugal was like the USA. Probably there would be a different angle pointed at the licence plate for example if it was happening in Portugal. But still they don't leave parcels outside in Portugal, they call the contact in case one was given, and if not, they go back and they try to redeliver next day. Or leave a postal in the mail box to were to pick up and when.

[tooki]

I’m totally in favor of dash cams, and IMHO they should carve an exception into the law about using them, as they have such a clear, undeniable benefit in accident reconstruction. I suppose I’d be  ok with there being restrictions on how one publishes the footage, such as blurring out faces and plates, or not being allowed to put it on YouTube and such.

If I owned a car, I’d almost certainly get a dash cam.

[Bud]

OP you need to clean your gutter, seems to be heavily clogged right at the downspout connection.

[nctnico]

If this is too far off topic please feel free to delete it but I'm hoping with enough eyeballs someone out there can identify the make, model and possibly even year of the car that stops at the end of my driveway before a blonde girl gets out, runs up and snatches the mail right off my porch then hops into the car which drives off before her foot is even off the ground. I have filed a report with the local sheriff and am going to provide any additional information I can get.

For starters you have to move your camera so it catches the face of anyone entering your property.

There are physical constraints on where I can place cameras and everything is a compromise. I have others but this one happened to capture the best view.

A video doorbell is a good solution. The better ones have wide angle lenses, night vision and motion activated recording. Hook it up to a VOIP connection and you can get a (video) call if someone is at the door while you are away and talk to the person.

[james_s]

I'll try to get to everything in one go here.

I cleaned the gutters and swept the roof off 3 days ago, it's October in the Northwest and the maple trees are shedding like crazy, it's a futile battle until they're finished, I'll clean them out again next weekend.

That's the annoying thing, I *have* a secure locking mailbox out by the street, but for reasons that are beyond me the mailman left all my mail right there on the porch when he delivered the pack of boxes (which are free so whatever) and picked up the two outgoing parcels I had stashed back in the corner out of sight. I've had many dozens of parcels sit on my porch and I have *never* had something stolen until now. I'm just glad they stole the stuff they did, and not the $350 worth of goods I'd left out there since the night before for the mailman to pick up. I did examine the footage from earlier to verify that those were picked up properly and not stolen.

I have thought about placing another camera down near the edge of my property looking up the street. I don't know whether that's technically legal here or not but frankly I don't care, I've never heard of anyone being charged for such a thing and the courts have well established that there is no right to privacy out in public. I'm perfectly free to walk down the street anywhere in the country, camera in hand taking photos and videos of anyone and anything I want, I don't see how a camera on my property looking out into the street is any different. If criminals were not roaming around victimizing innocent people, there would be no need for cameras in the first place but here we are. I have no interest in spying on my neighbors, the only time I ever even check my cameras is when I'm expecting a package or an incident occurs, usually it's a mole ripping up the back yard or a raccoon getting into the trash can.

A video doorbell would not have helped here, my doorbell button is on the side facing across the porch and the thief covered her face. I have clear video of her walking up the driveway which would have captured her face but it didn't because it was covered. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYOgp78lZPo&feature=youtu.be

The worst outcome from all of this is that I suddenly no longer feel safe having packages delivered to my porch when I'm not home, and that has never been a problem before. Of course usually the delivery person has the sense to not leave something leaning right against the front door in plain sight, that is when they manage to deliver it to the right house and not the next street over or the place next door.

[Mr. Scram]

A video doorbell is a good solution. The better ones have wide angle lenses, night vision and motion activated recording. Hook it up to a VOIP connection and you can get a (video) call if someone is at the door while you are away and talk to the person.

Video doorbells are a privacy nightmare and that's even before taking the proprietary cloud situation into account.

[andy3055]

I live in the east bay in Concord. There is an app/site called Nextdoor Sierra where people can share information, exchange goods and services, sell stuff they don't want etc. etc. I found it very useful as people always share this type of video clips and someone else identifies the culprits some times. It is also helpful to the cops. Even the city officials are on it. I believe this is a service available in a lot of areas. My relative who lives in San Diego has joined Sierra in that area.

Not sure where you are. This might be something to look in to. It is totally free as well.

See below:

https://nextdoor.com/news_feed/

[james_s]

Yep, already posted it on Nextdoor, already found one other neighbor who says they had a package stolen by the same people around the same time, says he has video footage too with a better view of the car and the female accomplice driving it. I've reached out to him and also gave the deputy I talked to his contact info, with any luck we'll get a few more data points over time. If I can get his footage I'll post it here too, I'm very impressed by the car image that was stitched together from the video frames.

When this sort of thing happens around here it's usually someone who drives in from some neighboring community, in this case judging by the appearance of the suspects, the relatively expensive late model car being driven, the overall idiocy of stealing worthless items and the general area, I'm betting these are a couple of relatively stupid young girls driving driving their yuppie parents car out looking for easy drug money or toys to play with.

[andy3055]

cAgreed. Some of them are looking for checks in the mail. Some are looking for credit card statements so that they can hack your accounts. I must say my postman is a gem in that regard. He will leave the package near the door but never the letters, even if they came the same day! I was thinking he should but now I am glad he does not.

We had our cul-de-sac mail boxes left open one night and the next day I put in a lockable box. When we go away for a few days, I stop the mail and so far, it has worked well. I must get cams installed. Waiting for Costco to give a deal during the holiday season.

[james_s]

I've been pretty happy with the Amcrest IP cameras and NVR that I have. The software pretty much sucks however ALL of the mid range camera systems seem to be based on the same ancient Chinese software. I'm a fan of wired PoE IP cameras due to the flexibility, I have mine all plugged into a network switch that has a group of PoE ports and then a group of regular ports that I have all my other gear wired into. I've played with some wireless cameras and they're a pain, less reliable, some of them are uselessly flaky and will drop off the network right when you need them. Also you have to run power to them anyway so in many cases it's not much harder to just run a single CAT5 and be done.

Once I got mine all dialed in I use the mobile app most of the time which is decent. If I need to access the web interface on the NVR or cameras I fire up Internet Exploder (uhg but whatever) and use that, it's the only thing I still use that crusty old browser for. The only time I ever do that is to pull video off it onto my PC, I could also do it locally using a mouse and monitor connected to the NVR but it is locked away in a relatively inaccessible location so I access it remotely over the LAN.

[andy3055]

Looks like you have it under control. 

[james_s]

I got some videos from a neighbor showing a much better view of the car, I was surprised to see that it is in fact a Toyota. Unfortunately no front license plate, illegal in this state, not sure if they took it off for their spree or if they never had it, that doesn't seem to be widely enforced.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84lpwcfclvcvjhe/3_Package%20_Thievery_2019-10-28.avi?dl=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uc4q4r33bs0rw4b/4_Package%20_Thievery_2019-10-28.avi?dl=1

[Black Phoenix]

Well in China most if not all parcels are delivered into this boxes:



You then receive a message at your phone with the location of the box (normally close to your residence) and a code to insert in the screen and for it to open the door. It works wonders, bigger parcels are delivered at home or left near the security guy outside (most buildings here have a security person at the entrance of the building or at the entrance of the compound).

Why don't create a door to a small room outside secure were the parcels can be dropped when delivered or construct something like this?





I don't remember where I saw but some guy developed a shot system were the box outside was something like these and then after the parcel arrived inside it had a system who would slide the box to inside the house using a motorized arm.

[james_s]

Personally I'd rather cut the hands off of thieves, maybe after a while they'd start to think twice about taking things that belong to others. I should not need a big locking box attached to my house.

[Black Phoenix]

Personally I'd rather cut the hands off of thieves, maybe after a while they'd start to think twice about taking things that belong to others. I should not need a big locking box attached to my house.

Yes I understand and perfectly agree with you. But the world is not like that and unfortunately 2 disappear, more will appear and do the same.

OK so basically the car made us all wrong, that what's happen when you have all brands making cars the same way with the same lines and some distinct changes only.

[james_s]

Yes it's ridiculous how similar cars all look these days. Well hopefully now we can get a positive ID on it, I'm not a Toyota guy but the image in that video from the neighbor is clear enough that someone familiar with the model could surely ID it.

[Black Phoenix]

Now with this best image, is the Toyota Highlander 2015:











The headlights curve upwards as in your video, the back window is the same angle and the front grill have the chrome. Probably a facelift model or extra options on the trims since the back not totally add with the extra chrome trim.

[james_s]

Excellent! I think what looks like chrome trim in the back is mostly just clear plastic that is part of the tail lights.

[Psi]

The wheels on that first white toyota pic match up better to the car.
The metal is more of a V pattern.

[james_s]

I actually saw some wheels that look very much like the ones on the suspect car on a Lexus SUV today, which is of course just a rebadged Toyota.

[BrianHG]

It's a girl.....  A little less compression and you would have nailed her face in the second image I posted.

[BrianHG]

Trick: Setup fake mail where you leave items where it is necessary for her to use 2 hands so she cannot cover her face when leaving your property.  Have a camera covering that angle and shell be nailed.

[Black Phoenix]

If they are stupid enough to return to the crime scene again to try again, yes it could work.

[Psi]

Is that an identifying mark on the bottom of the door?

[Black Phoenix]

Is that an identifying mark on the bottom of the door?

No, I checked the video again and is a reflection of the floor. The same one moves while the door is being open and close.

[soldar]

I got some videos from a neighbor showing a much better view of the car, I was surprised to see that it is in fact a Toyota. Unfortunately no front license plate, illegal in this state, not sure if they took it off for their spree or if they never had it, that doesn't seem to be widely enforced.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84lpwcfclvcvjhe/3_Package%20_Thievery_2019-10-28.avi?dl=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uc4q4r33bs0rw4b/4_Package%20_Thievery_2019-10-28.avi?dl=1

Just FYI, none of my computers has the H265 codec required to decode those.

[BrianHG]

Is that an identifying mark on the bottom of the door?

No, I checked the video again and is a reflection of the floor. The same one moves while the door is being open and close.

Nope, its a reflection from the leaves on the ground.  Watch the video, it moves as the door is opened and closed.

[Black Phoenix]

Just FYI, none of my computers has the H265 codec required to decode those.

Download VLC Portable from PortableApps. It runs that video without any problem or need to extra download of codecs.

[soldar]

Download VLC Portable from PortableApps. It runs that video without any problem or need to extra download of codecs.

Thanks. I have VLC on my Linux box and it worked correctly but when I just click to open the file the OS uses Xplayer by default and that did not work.

[SilverSolder]

Some possible identifying marks on the vehicle, after stacking/averaging several frames from the video?

[james_s]

Good eye on the sticker and possible door opener.

Yeah I really doubt they'll return to the same place again, there are thousands of other streets just like mine, and it's not as if they got a particularly spectacular haul. I mean the stuff they took from me is worthless. Of course with the benefit of hindsight I could easily set up a perfect trap to catch them, but any arrangement is a compromise and what would have worked to catch one person may be all wrong to catch the next.

I could also leave all kinds of nasty bait packages or something like a poop bucket boobytrap but having only ever experienced this one theft ever I could be waiting a very long time to nail somebody. I suppose I could try visiting more fertile hunting grounds for that. I also have to be careful to remain within the law, I mean I'd have no moral qualms about using truly dangerous bait packages since it's so very easy to avoid them by just not stealing from me but the courts don't see it that way.

[Bud]

Can't the police check the street cameras in the area for the car with no front license plate? Also the car roof mounts may also help with identification.

[SilverSolder]

Both Bonnie and Clyde here would most likely have been carrying cell phones with them.  So it should be possible to correlate the presence of unusual phones with the time and location.  Another observation:  Bonnie has what looks like tattoos on her ankles, they are visible in many of the frames...

Of course, this kind of crime may not be considered serious enough for the police to spend a lot of time on;  this is definitely true in some countries / cities.  So crime goes on, and on, and on, and....

As an aside, it seems to me the only practical way for home owners to increase the odds of picking up useful information in situations like this, is to increase the resolution of the security cameras...   and/or setting up some perimeter cameras - with the idea of catching something decisive like a number plate.  The less work the cops have to do, the more likely it is that they will follow up.

[floobydust]

The parcels are very to notice sitting there, it's shielded with lots of bushes and building on either side.
The thieves must have driven by before, or are following the delivery truck around and scooping them up later. They have some prior knowledge of those parcels being there.

There are tracking devices based upon WiFi or Bluetooth (cell phone, tablet, in-car nav etc). I believe it's constant polling/enumeration of unique device ID's.

Analytics companies make these, municipalities use them "for traffic patterns" along the freeways, and you can also track people's movement in shopping malls for retail analytics.
It's certainly creepy and the thieves would be broadcasting some unique ID's in proximity, if only it was logged.

"Smartphones with WiFi can now be used as an indicator of customer presence thanks to a WiFi mechanism that is common across all such devices: probe requests. These 802.11 management frames are transmitted at regular intervals from WiFi devices. The frames contain information that can be used to identify presence, time spent, and repeat visits within range of a WiFi access point. These devices can be detected by WiFi access points irrespective of its WiFi association state meaning that even if a user does not connect his or her device to the wireless network, the device's presence can still be detected while the device is within range of the network and the device's WiFi antenna is turned on."
Cisco Meraki Location Analytics

[Syntax Error]

The plot thickens! Maybe the real crime is that Mazda and Toyota are making doppelganger SUVs? At least we get to confirm the presence of aftermarket roof bars.

So handy of Perp1 to calibrate their height when getting out. According to the specs on the Toyota website, the door would be 68 inches/5ft8in about the pavement. So being right next to the door sets their height at around 5ft6in-7in. When Perp1 returned to the vehicle, we also get a handle on the height of the driver, Perp2. I suspect Perp2 is even shorter, about 5ft5in or less. As for the age of Perp1, I'd revise my estimate upwards; maybe mid 30s - or she's just a well worn teen? Could Bonnie & Clyde be mom and kid? This is wild speculation.

In the driveway video we do not see the Toyota arriving. Did they pull straight up or drive by slowly by first?

[james_s]

I thought it looked like there may be one or more tattoos on her ankles but I wasn't sure if that might just be her socks. Anybody find a reasonable shot?

I'm going to see if I can find anyone else with footage that might show them driving by. I do have video of the neighbor's Amazon package being delivered but didn't think that was useful. Also someone drives by the other direction right as they stop in front of my house but it's unlikely they would be paying any attention. The problem with just about any camera footage is that people normally have the cameras covering their own property, not traffic on the street. I'm going to seriously evaluate installing one out there though, I can enable motion detection with zones so that it's not wasting disk space recording every time the trees move in the breeze.

[SilverSolder]

The USPS Postal Inspection Service does take mail theft seriously...

They have a page here for reporting mail and package theft.  "Postal Inspectors investigate these crimes and arrest thousands of mail and package thieves each year."  Sounds promising!   These guys probably have access to cell phone tower records and anything else they need.  They will likely be much more interested than the local police department...   especially with the video evidence.

https://www.uspis.gov/tips-prevention/mail-theft/

[james_s]

I did report mine there. The Amazon package was I believe delivered by a private contractor so I don't think usps would care about that.

[SilverSolder]

Apparently the penalties for getting nailed for mail theft are quite serious...

Mail theft carries a penalty of either five years imprisonment, a fine, or both!

[Syntax Error]

...etc...
I'm going to see if I can find anyone else with footage that might show them driving by.
...etc...

The reason I was asking about the arrival at your nieghbors was, did they scope the front porch first or did they drive straight in; as if they somehow knew where they were going?

[james_s]

Unfortunately I don't know, I'll check the other clip and see if the timestamp is close. I suspect mine was a simple crime of opportunity as my mail sat out there for hours.

I still can't figure out why she grabbed those boxes, they're in a stack under clear shrinkwrap, it's plainly obvious that they're just empty boxes. Clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[james_s]

I got some more footage from the same neighbor.

Here's the Amazon delivery taking place:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r4tptdqe0ene06o/1_Package%20_Delivery_2019-10-28.avi?dl=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gygqibb92cuoa9r/2_Package%20_Delivery_2019-10-28.avi?dl=1


Here's the suspect vehicle driving past, turning around and then pulling into the driveway:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jtj24fly7fsarht/3b_Package%20_Thievery_2019-10-28.avi?dl=1

Probably not a lot more to be gained as the windows are tinted dark all around but there may be some new content hiding in a frame or two. What I need to do is put together the best pictures of the suspects and the vehicle and then I'll print up some posters and put them up in the neighborhood and the bus shelters in the nearby park & ride, that gets a lot of eyeballs.

[Syntax Error]

Certainly looks like they were driving around looking for packages. Maybe they knew the delivery driver was someone who left packages on doorsteps without reading the full delivery instructions? At least you have the evidence should the delivery company try to alter the facts. I note that blue shoes with white soles are in with the kids. Nice to see you're using old fashioned social media; maybe other people in the community didn't even realise that they were victims?

[SilverSolder]

It looks like Bonnie might have a tattoo of a butterfly on both sides of her right ankle?



All pix are right side of right foot, except the last one (marked Left) is left side of right foot.

[Black Phoenix]

This is really like CSI... Don't mess with EE and IT guys...

[Psi]

It looks like Bonnie might have a tattoo of a butterfly on both sides of her right ankle?

Well spotted, exactly the sort of info needed!

If it's in a small town/suburb lookup who does pedicures in the local mall/shopping area and ask them if they know who it is.

[Rerouter]

The accomplice also looks to have a beard that meets his mustache, either black or a dark brown hair colour, and slightly tan skin.

[james_s]

It looks like Bonnie might have a tattoo of a butterfly on both sides of her right ankle?

Well spotted, exactly the sort of info needed!

If it's in a small town/suburb lookup who does pedicures in the local mall/shopping area and ask them if they know who it is.

Unfortunately Woodinville is a small city in itself but a major suburb of Seattle. It along with Bothell, Redmond, Kenmore, Kirkland and the larger city of Bellevue all blend together and have many millions of people. This whole region is built out, the cities all join back to back.

Somebody out here has to know these two though.

[tooki]

This is really like CSI... Don't mess with EE and IT guys...

Reminds me of the case of the P-p-p-powerbook. Oh, the joy of an internet scorned, LOL!

(I don't remember the details, but on a Mac forum I used to be an admin on ages ago, the community also managed to do some sleuthing on a scammer, which culminated in a cop going undercover as the FedEx guy to catch the scammer accepting the package! And then there was the time our resident troll managed to get people so annoyed that someone reported a post of his, containing a totally empty threat to the POTUS, to the Secret Service, resulting in him getting a home visit by the FBI!)

[james_s]

I just got word from another neighbor that the same people in the same car rolled through again yesterday, got into another neighbor's garage and car so if they're ever caught that's a breaking & entering or possibly burglary charge. Gotta say I'm floored that they would be dumb enough to hit the same street twice in one week, perhaps they do live or work nearby. This whole area is affluent but there are much fancier wealthier neighborhoods just minutes away from mine where they surely could find a much better haul. The two days that it happened were the same two days I went to the office downtown and wasn't around, grr.

So maybe a bait box is in order, I found a nice laptop box at work, has a nice conspicuous HP logo on it, and we have a number of furry companions who produce copious amounts of vile carnivore poop soo...

[james_s]

Got another video from another neighbor, hey this is fun, and to be somewhat on topic it can lead to a discussion on security cameras, hardware and technique.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d50a85bmvgf9qfp/AAAcnaOSRrSZQqXzV2mzMvJMa?dl=0&preview=Video+Oct+31%2C+8+36+43+AM.mp4

[Rerouter]

well it depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, but if enough neighbors have security cameras in the area, and you suspect they are no more than a few KM away, you can track them,

Main point is you need at least 1 camera per street, or if the routes are limited, 1 camera per route, you have the rough times, so you drive up the road until you spot someone with a camera, ask them if they would be willing to share the footage between X and Y time, if they are willing, and lock in or rule out what way they continued on,

Seeing as they are hitting the same places, they probably stick to a rather predictable route, so you may be able to figure out what direction they are coming from each time,

[soldar]

Try to place a cam in a place where it will get the car rear plate clearly.

[Mr. Scram]

I just got word from another neighbor that the same people in the same car rolled through again yesterday, got into another neighbor's garage and car so if they're ever caught that's a breaking & entering or possibly burglary charge. Gotta say I'm floored that they would be dumb enough to hit the same street twice in one week, perhaps they do live or work nearby. This whole area is affluent but there are much fancier wealthier neighborhoods just minutes away from mine where they surely could find a much better haul. The two days that it happened were the same two days I went to the office downtown and wasn't around, grr.

So maybe a bait box is in order, I found a nice laptop box at work, has a nice conspicuous HP logo on it, and we have a number of furry companions who produce copious amounts of vile carnivore poop soo...

Is there footage or other proof of them breaking into that garage?

[SilverSolder]

Bait, yes...   but most importantly, a hidden camera that can see the license plate!

These two don't think they can get caught, so they are not being careful.

[jogri]

So maybe a bait box is in order, I found a nice laptop box at work, has a nice conspicuous HP logo on it, and we have a number of furry companions who produce copious amounts of vile carnivore poop soo...

I would suggest that you don't prepare a bait box as that will alert them that you have noticed their little adventures and are pissed off enough to spend time packaging such material. Chances are that they will move to another location were no one expects them yet.

Instead, why not use that laptop box to its full intend? If you have a broken laptop you could use it to hide a old android phone inside with a gps tracker on it. That way, you get their home location instead of hoping to get them identified via pictures. If you make it look like the laptop was poorly packaged and has suffered damage on transport, they probably won't question why someone shipped you a broken laptop. And i bet they won't bother disposing it outside their home, so you just have to give their adress to the police and enjoy the show. And even if they do, you can still retrieve it via the tracker.

Edit: If you do this, make sure to include a laptop charger as the ultimate "battery is dead, please bring it home and plug it into a wall socket" sign. That should decrease the chance that they will just dump the laptop if they unbox it in their car and it doesn't boot.

[andy3055]

So maybe a bait box is in order, I found a nice laptop box at work, has a nice conspicuous HP logo on it, and we have a number of furry companions who produce copious amounts of vile carnivore poop soo...

I would suggest that you don't prepare a bait box as that will alert them that you have noticed their little adventures and are pissed off enough to spend time packaging such material. Chances are that they will move to another location were no one expects them yet.

Instead, why not use that laptop box to its full intend? If you have a broken laptop you could use it to hide a old android phone inside with a gps tracker on it. That way, you get their home location instead of hoping to get them identified via pictures. If you make it look like the laptop was poorly packaged and has suffered damage on transport, they probably won't question why someone shipped you a broken laptop. And i bet they won't bother disposing it outside their home, so you just have to give their adress to the police and enjoy the show. And even if they do, you can still retrieve it via the tracker.

This is a great idea. If you pull out the Optical drive  (from an old laptop) it will have enough space for a tracker. For that matter, you can use any other piece of gear and gut the insides to do this using any cardboard box.

[james_s]

Hm I will consider that. In the meantime I do have a spare camera I was going to install elsewhere that I can put out by the street, I need to buy a new box of cat5 though as I'm almost out.

I think I may have seen them drive by today actually, I was out in the driveway setting up some halloween decorations when I saw a familiar looking Toyota SUV pass by out the corner of my eye as it went up the hill. I stood there for a minute or two waiting to see if they came back before going back about my business and then shortly after I walked away they drove back down the hill. It was certainly suspicious at any rate, I've reached out to the same neighbors to see if they have any footage from that time, I'm gonna be really annoyed if it does turn out to be them as I was right there and with just a bit more patience could have caught a high resolution pic of their rear plate as they went by.

[GlennSprigg]

This is really like CSI... Don't mess with EE and IT guys...

I REALLY hope he found those PRICKS eventually. However in regards to what you say....
I always laugh when TV shows like that show a fancy control room, with the latest high
tech computers... and some Senior person says to the Computer Operator....
"Freeze that, and zoom into the numberplate"........
The 'scene' cuts to someone from a speed typing course 'Typing Madly' on the keyboard !!!!
MAYBE they were 'typing'... "Zoom-In-On-That-Ford-Number-Plate-20x".... sigh....
Never a simple 'mouse-drag' etc....  The 'producers' make themselves look so stupid !!!   

[drussell]

If you log an open wifi access point with a decent antenna you might catch their mac address and phone name.

[Syntax Error]

With a long range (100m) class 1 Bluetooth adapter/dongle, it may be possible to scan for either the fugitives phones or, the Toyota Highlander itself - as it has integrated Bluetooth phone tethering and other toys. You would need an always on device and some Bluetooth scanning software to log the timestamp of all pings, but setting this up would be well inside your skillset and budget. The Bluetooth adapter just needs a line of site of the sidewalk and an aerial/Rx sensitive enough for the lower power clients.

[james_s]

Yes if only image enhancement worked anything at all like it does on TV, I would gladly settle for an order of magnitude less but in reality the enhancement that can be done is very limited. That said, I do wonder if it's possible to gather a significant amount of visual data from a series of moving frames and interpolate it into a still image, a bit like what was done with the initial captures of the vehicle image.

The WiFi and Bluetooth angles are intriguing, admittedly I have never even looked into doing something like that, I ignored Bluetooth for a long time and only recently started using it with wireless headphones, trying to capture information from it sounds interesting. The thief was wearing yoga pants without pockets so there was probably no mobile phone on her person but I would be shocked if there were not phones belonging to both perps in the vehicle.

In the meantime I've been hitting some Toyota forums looking for an expert and have tried reaching out to a couple of local dealerships, my hope is that somebody will be familiar enough with the nuances to give me a positive ID on the model, year, rims, paint code, etc as I would be able to do for a 80s-90s Volvo. I also set up a spare camera under a shrub looking right down the street so if they strike again I have a reasonable chance of capturing the license plate.

This process has made me realize that the lenses on the cameras I have are far too wide angle for capturing details. They are great for surveying overall activity over an area but when it comes to trying to grab things like faces or license plates they are nearly useless. I think I need to find a couple of cameras with much narrower FOV dedicated to license plates and the face of anyone entering or leaving my property. A camera to catch them leaving is probably a good idea as most people will expect the cameras to be looking out away from the house toward things that are approaching and not the other way around.

[SilverSolder]

[...]  I do wonder if it's possible to gather a significant amount of visual data from a series of moving frames and interpolate it into a still image [...]

Yes, that is possible, but this kind of "stacking" image enhancement basically works by reducing noise -  i.e. there actually has to be a signal buried in the data that can be unmasked, for it to work.  The video footage is compressed, so details are not just buried in noise, they have been eliminated intentionally by the lossy compression algorithms.

[james_s]

Ah, yes that's a good point. This may be one of those areas where analog has a distinct advantage, though it also has the disadvantage of significantly increased noise and economical analog methods of recording video never were very good. I think in my case the best option is going to be the brute force digital approach, adding a couple more cameras of much higher resolution with much more narrow FOV. It looks like Amcrest now offers a 8MP camera with a 4.0mm lens for 88 degree FOV vs the 3MP cameras with 2.8mm lenses, something like 118 degrees. I think I might also install a concealed camera looking up toward the front door from the end of the walkway, I can build or repurpose a small decorative item to house it inconspicuously.

[james_s]

I think the rims on the vehicle are ALY75162U 18x7.5, one of the available factory rims for the 2014-2018 Highlander. Anyone disagree?

https://www.hubcaphaven.com/c/495/toyota_highlander_wheels_rims.html

In the process I noted that playing with the gamma correction can bring out a considerable amount of detail I couldn't see well before, so it may be worth having a play with that on the original raw video files.

[Psi]

With a long range (100m) class 1 Bluetooth adapter/dongle, it may be possible to scan for either the fugitives phones or, the Toyota Highlander itself - as it has integrated Bluetooth phone tethering and other toys. You would need an always on device and some Bluetooth scanning software to log the timestamp of all pings, but setting this up would be well inside your skillset and budget. The Bluetooth adapter just needs a line of site of the sidewalk and an aerial/Rx sensitive enough for the lower power clients.

i think bluetooth uses a random MAC address, so you wouldn't get an uniquely identifiable info. Would just get the name of the car and phone which will probably be stock.

[james_s]

So funny thing, while trying to figure out why the hard drive in my NVR fills so much faster than the one in the similar system I installed in my mom's house I discovered that all of my cameras have been saving a snapshop once per second all this time. This resulted in a handful of still shots of significantly better quality than what I've been able to grab from the video. I cropped them down to just the relevant content because the raw snapshots came up to almost 22MB.

The annoying thing is had there been one more snapshot between two of the car driving away I almost could have had the license plate.

[floobydust]

She has ankle tatoos?

[Ed.Kloonk]

She has ankle tatoos?

I never understood why crims have tatts. It just seems counter intuitive.

[james_s]

I never understood why crims have tatts. It just seems counter intuitive.

I've wondered that too, however I think it largely comes down to the fact that poor judgement tends to be involved in putting someone into a position where they're swiping packages off of porches instead of being at work.

I'm not entirely convinced those are tattoos though, they look like they certainly could be, however they could also be skin tight socks similar to the yoga pants she's wearing.

[tooki]

She has ankle tatoos?

I never understood why crims have tatts. It just seems counter intuitive.

As someone with lots of tattoos, I wonder this, too!

I never understood why crims have tatts. It just seems counter intuitive.

I've wondered that too, however I think it largely comes down to the fact that poor judgement tends to be involved in putting someone into a position where they're swiping packages off of porches instead of being at work.

I'm not entirely convinced those are tattoos though, they look like they certainly could be, however they could also be skin tight socks similar to the yoga pants she's wearing.

Tattoos aren’t a sign of “poor judgment”, only of different priorities. I’m very aware that my visible tattoos aren’t helpful in the job market, but it’s a cost I’m willing to pay, because the personal benefits to me outweigh that.

[Ed.Kloonk]

She has ankle tatoos?

I never understood why crims have tatts. It just seems counter intuitive.

As someone with lots of tattoos, I wonder this, too!

I never understood why crims have tatts. It just seems counter intuitive.

I've wondered that too, however I think it largely comes down to the fact that poor judgement tends to be involved in putting someone into a position where they're swiping packages off of porches instead of being at work.

I'm not entirely convinced those are tattoos though, they look like they certainly could be, however they could also be skin tight socks similar to the yoga pants she's wearing.

Tattoos aren’t a sign of “poor judgement”,

Mine are! Every single one coincided with evening bender I had in the city.

 

[Syntax Error]

The girl with the snake tatoo? More like the girl with the purple panties!

  How embarrassing!

[james_s]

Tattoos aren’t a sign of “poor judgment”, only of different priorities. I’m very aware that my visible tattoos aren’t helpful in the job market, but it’s a cost I’m willing to pay, because the personal benefits to me outweigh that.

Tattoos combined with criminal activities are a sign of poor judgement. Tattoos in and of themselves are not something I have a problem with, not really my cup of tea but some are cool and hey, whatever. If one has the money to spare I'm not gonna judge them.

Lots of really crappy ones out there though and if one has any intention of doing anything where being easily identifiable is a negative or wishes to have a customer facing job then it's most certainly an indication of bad judgement to have readily visible tattoos that are difficult to conceal.

[tooki]

LOL, the days where visible tattoos categorically rule out customer facing work are long gone, dude. Pretty much the only major holdout is airlines. Even banks (!!) are now relaxing about visible tattoos with customer facing employees. You now see retail employees with facial tattoos. (Edit: come to think of it, I know a guy with major facial ink who had it while working at a Circuit City 15+ years ago. So even that isn’t that new a development.) So no, even visible ink for public jobs isn’t “bad judgment”.

I “love” the circular logic of tattoo haters: “I think tattoos look unprofessional” - “what makes them unprofessional?” - “because customers like me think it’s unprofessional” - “so... you think it’s unprofessional because you think it’s unprofessional?”    At no point does there ever emerge any logical rationale for why tattoos actually would be. (Obviously, talking about inoffensive tattoos. If you have nazi symbols or swear words or naked boobies tattooed, those are problematic on their own merits.)

The only thing where I agree with you is about crappy tattoos. I don’t know why anyone would get something shitty. (With the sole exception of “bad” drawings that are actually tattoos of drawings their kids made.)

[SilverSolder]

LOL, the days where visible tattoos categorically rule out customer facing work are long gone, dude. Pretty much the only major holdout is airlines. Even banks (!!) are now relaxing about visible tattoos with customer facing employees. You now see retail employees with facial tattoos. (Edit: come to think of it, I know a guy with major facial ink who had it while working at a Circuit City 15+ years ago. So even that isn’t that new a development.) So no, even visible ink for public jobs isn’t “bad judgment”.

I “love” the circular logic of tattoo haters: “I think tattoos look unprofessional” - “what makes them unprofessional?” - “because customers like me think it’s unprofessional” - “so... you think it’s unprofessional because you think it’s unprofessional?”    At no point does there ever emerge any logical rationale for why tattoos actually would be. (Obviously, talking about inoffensive tattoos. If you have nazi symbols or swear words or naked boobies tattooed, those are problematic on their own merits.)

The only thing where I agree with you is about crappy tattoos. I don’t know why anyone would get something shitty. (With the sole exception of “bad” drawings that are actually tattoos of drawings their kids made.)

And I know you love your tattoo. And I know it is meaningful to you. And I know it is special and memorializes something and tells the world how you want the world to see you and I know it tells your story and solipsism, solipsism, solipsism. That doesn’t matter. It is a thing that exists within the context of other things. And this particular thing exists within the context of marginalized working class poor white people and their marginalized working class artists. When you take that you are stealing culture.

Carve that on your neck motherf*cker.

https://medium.com/@honestlewis/tattoos-and-the-class-war-9e98c8d701fe

[james_s]

I don't want this to turn into a tattoo debate, it's irrelevant and not something I particularly care about one way or another. That said, it's still an outright fact that while visible tattoos will often not categorically rule out customer facing employment, they're virtually never an asset. The impact can range from nothing at all at best to your resume going in the bin at worst and that's going to depend on many factors. Art is subjective and a design that may have great meaning and appeal to you may be repulsive to someone else, but that's not to say one shouldn't get them if they want. Some are going to be considered tasteful by far more people than others and it's a roll of the dice. I personally would not normally turn someone down based on it but if their face was covered in what looked like prison tats or prominently visible tats likely to be considered obscene or politically charged I would likely avoid them. Anyway whatever, if that takes over the thread I'll consider it to have run its course and abandon it.

[CatalinaWOW]

The real point is not whether tattoos are good for upstanding members of society.  That can be debated.  But for someone involved in criminal activity it seems stupid.  Why be so distinctive that there is no difficulty identifying you on a security camera or in a lineup.  There was a guy in a city I used to live who was so into body mod that he split his tongue, had his whole visible face and arms tattooed with green scales and a few other little features.  Worked very hard to achieve his moniker of lizard man.  Everyone knew whenever he entered a store, club, home, church or whatever.  No chance whatever of going un-noticed.  Fortunately for him he wasn't into crime.

This girl has made herself easier to find with an identifying feature.  Made covering her face less effective. She could have worn stockings to cover the tattoo, but didn't think it through.  Add it to the list of dumb things like hitting the same location twice in quick succession and stealing a package of free boxes.

[tooki]

LOL, the days where visible tattoos categorically rule out customer facing work are long gone, dude. Pretty much the only major holdout is airlines. Even banks (!!) are now relaxing about visible tattoos with customer facing employees. You now see retail employees with facial tattoos. (Edit: come to think of it, I know a guy with major facial ink who had it while working at a Circuit City 15+ years ago. So even that isn’t that new a development.) So no, even visible ink for public jobs isn’t “bad judgment”.

I “love” the circular logic of tattoo haters: “I think tattoos look unprofessional” - “what makes them unprofessional?” - “because customers like me think it’s unprofessional” - “so... you think it’s unprofessional because you think it’s unprofessional?”    At no point does there ever emerge any logical rationale for why tattoos actually would be. (Obviously, talking about inoffensive tattoos. If you have nazi symbols or swear words or naked boobies tattooed, those are problematic on their own merits.)

The only thing where I agree with you is about crappy tattoos. I don’t know why anyone would get something shitty. (With the sole exception of “bad” drawings that are actually tattoos of drawings their kids made.)

And I know you love your tattoo. And I know it is meaningful to you. And I know it is special and memorializes something and tells the world how you want the world to see you and I know it tells your story and solipsism, solipsism, solipsism. That doesn’t matter. It is a thing that exists within the context of other things. And this particular thing exists within the context of marginalized working class poor white people and their marginalized working class artists. When you take that you are stealing culture.

Carve that on your neck motherf*cker.

https://medium.com/@honestlewis/tattoos-and-the-class-war-9e98c8d701fe

Hah, wow. That dude is totally deluded. He knows literally nothing about tattoo history, insofar as even in the West, it spans all socioeconomic strata. (Yep, not only sailors were inked. So were the royalty.)

The real point is not whether tattoos are good for upstanding members of society.  That can be debated.  But for someone involved in criminal activity it seems stupid.  Why be so distinctive that there is no difficulty identifying you on a security camera or in a lineup.  There was a guy in a city I used to live who was so into body mod that he split his tongue, had his whole visible face and arms tattooed with green scales and a few other little features.  Worked very hard to achieve his moniker of lizard man.  Everyone knew whenever he entered a store, club, home, church or whatever.  No chance whatever of going un-noticed.  Fortunately for him he wasn't into crime.

Heh, I know him personally. Definitely not a criminal. (People mostly don't know that he's even got a phd in psychology. Part of his transformation was actually sort of an experiment!)

But yeah, it's astoundingly dumb to get visible ink if you plan to be a criminal. Alas, stupidity runs through all strata of society, as do tattoos, so they're bound to intersect at times.

[james_s]

I suppose I should be encouraging tattoos, especially in high crime areas. Heck maybe they should offer a reduced sentence for convicts willing to get a distinctive and difficult to cover tattoo as it would make identifying them the next time around that much easier. 

[SilverSolder]

Tolerance of those that are different from ourselves is important.  It works, as long as people tolerate us in return!   

Tattoos doesn't stop you becoming the boss of Goldman Sachs:

https://news.efinancialcareers.com/uk-en/268618/marty-chavez-goldman-president/

[floobydust]

Is this the same vehicle at 00:31/00:58 ? https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/homeowners-fight-back-thieves-stealing-packages-porches-44406504
I'd mentioned the tatoos as something that could ID the thief.

[SilverSolder]

Is this the same vehicle at 00:31/00:58 ? https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/homeowners-fight-back-thieves-stealing-packages-porches-44406504
I'd mentioned the tatoos as something that could ID the thief.

Wow, I didn't realize this particular flavour of crime type was so popular among the pond scum...    23 million victims?   

[james_s]

3 years ago? I seriously doubt the same person has been at it so long.

Yes it happens a lot and has been on the rise with so many people shopping online. It's relatively easy to commit and quite a few people get away with it as companies tend to just write off the losses and the police have bigger fish to fry. Hopefully the explosion of affordable high resolution security cameras and more people planting bait packages will reduce the frequency.

I've always loved the various bait videos out there. Bait cars, bait bikes, bait packages, I guess it's the same appeal some have for fishing, the rush of reeling in a big one. I think they should have bait programs in every city, I'd be more than happy to volunteer engineering.

[soldar]

james_s, I just want to say I am following this thread and rooting for a happy ending where the perps are caught.

In many cases it is young, stupid people who do it just for kicks and have no regard for others.

I have suffered a couple of break-ins and it is not only the value of what was stolen but the feeling of insecurity and powerlessness.

I hope your case can be solved.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Is this the same vehicle at 00:31/00:58 ? https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/homeowners-fight-back-thieves-stealing-packages-porches-44406504
I'd mentioned the tatoos as something that could ID the thief.

Don't get a Ring Door bell. You don't own the video it captures.

[james_s]

A doorbell cam would not be very useful to me anyway, there's nowhere to mount it that would get a good view. I'm more interested in capturing shots of suspects approaching/leaving and their vehicle. This mail thing has given me a real world situation to evaluate my setup against and I'm making a few adjustments accordingly.

[Ed.Kloonk]

A doorbell cam would not be very useful to me anyway, there's nowhere to mount it that would get a good view. I'm more interested in capturing shots of suspects approaching/leaving and their vehicle. This mail thing has given me a real world situation to evaluate my setup against and I'm making a few adjustments accordingly.

lemme guess..

Does it go "Woof.. Woof.. Woof" ?

[Rerouter]

More likely the 1 - 2 punch with cameras. They will look down and away from the big obvious camera. But that just leaves them looking somewhere predictable for the return leg

[floobydust]

My friends use the doorbell cam to get alerted and ID a delivery driver, and then they remotely open their garage door, where the parcel gets dropped off inside, and the door gets closed. All done over a cellphone.
 
There are also dedicated outdoor lock boxes, like a huge mailbox, bolted down.
I remember seeing some that are home made, a ESP8266 controlling a lock solenoid, battery powered.
One had a keypad and the delivery guy was given the combo to open the lock.

[CatalinaWOW]

You may want to look into game cameras.  They aren't particularly expensive and don't require wiring, just periodic checks to download the take.  They come with all the motion detection etc.  Obviously would need to have them either well hidden or very securely tied down.

[james_s]

More likely the 1 - 2 punch with cameras. They will look down and away from the big obvious camera. But that just leaves them looking somewhere predictable for the return leg

That's more or less my plan. In order to try to expedite things I've decided to make a simple passive bait box. Nothing malicious here, just a bit of worthless junk that I don't care if someone steals it but not blatantly obvious that it's just bait either. I'll put an ebay shipping label on the box and leave it out on the porch in plain view on the days I work from home and see if anyone bites. This old transformer weighs enough that it's gonna take two hands to pick it up too.

[nctnico]

Truly evil! 

[Brumby]

Simple, with an air of poetry.

 

[digsys]

Hmmmm ..  I'd say risky !! What if they just happened to be looking for exactly that type transformer ! DOH

[Psi]

Hmmmm ..  I'd say risky !! What if they just happened to be looking for exactly that type transformer ! DOH

Better cut off all the wires right where they exit the transformer so it can never be useful   

If you're going to all the trouble of baiting them, might as well get a $20 GPS/cell tracker and put that in the box.
Or any old cellphone running some software that sends you it's position every 15min would work.
You can pull it out and charge it back up each day.

[Zucca]

You should put the 110VAC on the secondary of that transformer... and install some alu tape connected to the primary sealing the box.

[nctnico]

You should put the 110VAC on the secondary of that transformer... and install some alu tape connected to the primary sealing the box.

Even in the US that is probably illegal and likely to end up costing you lots of money and trouble.

[Zucca]

Ok if you don't want harm those bastards then some sort of "glue" on the box to get at least the finger print in case they leave it on the ground because too heavy for a punk tattoo girl.

BTW: If a police man are reading this, do you do this kind of analysis in your office i this case? I bet 100€ no.

[james_s]

I mean if it were purely up to me I would be perfectly ok with a lethal bait box but if I did manage to harm somebody I could be held liable. We have had several cases where someone broke into someone's house, managed to injure themselves and successfully sued the homeowner, ridiculous but it happens.

Anyway this first time around I just want to try to lure them into having their license plate captured as they pass by. If they snag this box then there's a pretty good chance they live nearby and will swipe other boxes. At that point if I have not caught them I can try a dye pack, spraypaint can with a mechanism to puncture it, shotgun blank (LOUD!!), smoke flare, tracker or some combination of things. Once I hit someone with that though they'll know they've been baited and that particular person likely won't give me another opportunity to get them. The possibility of retaliation is a concern too.

[soldar]

You say it is a dead end street so they have to get out the way they came in. It should not be difficult to use a spike strip or caltrops to stop their getaway. Hide them by the side of the road and activate them manually when you see them trying to get away after the deed.

[james_s]

I'd have to be very sure I was getting the right vehicle, and not get someone else or that could be a very expensive mistake. Really I think the best option is to capture their license plate and let the police take care of the rest. Failing that I can try a bait box with a tracker or something to give them a nasty surprise without actually hurting anybody. I don't even know if they'll hit again though, it's possible they have moved on to other areas.

[nctnico]

I mean if it were purely up to me I would be perfectly ok with a lethal bait box but if I did manage to harm somebody I could be held liable. We have had several cases where someone broke into someone's house, managed to injure themselves and successfully sued the homeowner, ridiculous but it happens.

Anyway this first time around I just want to try to lure them into having their license plate captured as they pass by. If they snag this box then there's a pretty good chance they live nearby and will swipe other boxes. At that point if I have not caught them I can try a dye pack, spraypaint can with a mechanism to puncture it, shotgun blank (LOUD!!), smoke flare, tracker or some combination of things. Once I hit someone with that though they'll know they've been baited and that particular person likely won't give me another opportunity to get them. The possibility of retaliation is a concern too.

I'd be concerned about retaliation too. People who think other people's stuff is theirs probably have a few other things wired the wrong way round too. Like feeling entitled to other people's property and they may get very pissed. Collect evidence and let the police do the rest. At least they are paid & trained to get beaten up or shot at.

[Mr. Scram]

My friends use the doorbell cam to get alerted and ID a delivery driver, and then they remotely open their garage door, where the parcel gets dropped off inside, and the door gets closed. All done over a cellphone.
 
There are also dedicated outdoor lock boxes, like a huge mailbox, bolted down.
I remember seeing some that are home made, a ESP8266 controlling a lock solenoid, battery powered.
One had a keypad and the delivery guy was given the combo to open the lock.

Opening your house to the world through a cellphone. What could possibly go wrong?

[james_s]

lemme guess..

Does it go "Woof.. Woof.. Woof" ?

No, those don't tend to mix well with things that go "meow" nor does it fit well with my lifestyle to have an animal that I have to take outside to relieve themselves several times a day and find ways to keep them entertained when I'm working or otherwise busy. Big dogs in the suburbs with a tiny yard are not a great combination.

My adjustments involved adding additional cameras and slightly tweaking some of the ones I already had.

[nctnico]

Opening your house to the world through a cellphone. What could possibly go wrong?

Depends on the system. Apple's homekit requires an Apple specific ID & encryption chip in each device in order to communicate with Apple's servers. All of these chips are 100% traceable through the distribution and assembly of a device. I'm not an Apple fan but Apple is really serious about security for their Homekit environment.

[Mr. Scram]

Depends on the system. Apple's homekit requires an Apple specific ID & encryption chip in each device in order to communicate with Apple's servers. All of these chips are 100% traceable through the distribution and assembly of a device. I'm not an Apple fan but Apple is really serious about security for their Homekit environment.

They take the security of their phones very seriously too yet several critical security issues are patched with each release of iOS. Most manufacturers do much worse. Electronics and especially networked devices in their current form are inherently flawed. Very flawed. Not to mention the folly of a homebrew solution. Some things are best kept separated from others.

[james_s]

Given how rare theft has historically been here, I don't think I need extreme measures to prevent it. I can start instructing delivery drivers to leave boxes on the back porch or around the side where they are not visible. I'm quite sure mine was a crime of opportunity, they drove up and down the street stopping at houses that had stuff sitting visibly on the porches. My shipping boxes were left leaning up against the front door like a big bright flag in the sun. I'm still annoyed that the mailman left all of my mail there, I have a locking mailbox for a reason.

[soldar]

On the other hand you can be grateful they stole something of no value and alerted you to be careful in the future with things of more value.

[Rerouter]

Not to mention for the cost of a transformer and an empty box you get to see how far arm chair investigators can pick apart blurry footage. And get some fun out of the hunt

[james_s]

Well no bites today but I'll be home again on Friday. Also my new 8MP camera came so hopefully soon I'll have less blurry footage. I'm going to set that one up on the street so it only records after detecting motion. It has a narrower 88 degree FOV which will result in fewer wasted pixels but I wish Amcrest offered something even narrower. I think a mixed approach is the way to go, wide angle cameras up high to survey a broad area combined with narrow angle cameras strategically placed to capture license plates or faces.

Technically my stuff is all ONVIF compliant so I may try some mix & match at some point, the hardware is inexpensive enough that I don't mind experimenting.

[Brumby]

The trick with narrow angle cameras is to point them in the right direction - but I daresay you have something already in mind.

[Muttley Snickers]

Forget about the thieves and arrest those damn leaves.   
I would kill two birds and fill the bait boxes with leaves.   

[jonovid]

a good case for having high-definition cctv systems is a good idea

[aqarwaen]

how offen you order items from internet?maybe if you order offen from internet,i suggest you install large secure mail box..i seen people using them..some are made from steel and have safety locks.
after package is inserted there,it locks itself and you need to unlock with similar to car keys signal or use keys to unlock it
you should invest into it

[james_s]

I'm not bothered by the leaves, they're a part of nature, actually I think they look nice when the trees change color in the fall and the deciduous types shed. I sweep them off the roof and the porch once the maple trees are done shedding, otherwise I let nature take care of itself.

I order online frequently, as I've said before, I have a locking metal mailbox but that doesn't help if the mailman leaves something on my porch, and also UPS and other services can't deliver to a USPS mailbox.

[SilverSolder]

The leaves are beautiful...  until they have to be cleaned up! 

Of course, this gives rise to another hobby:  the care and feeding of small internal combustion engines...

I was cutting down a fallen tree the other day, and was amazed that the little two-stroke chain saw exceeding expectations by starting on the 1st or 2nd pull every time, no matter how long it has been standing.  (I'm good about remembering to add marine grade stabilizer to the fuel, which seems to be the "secret sauce" here.  That, and new fangled electronic ignition on small engines!)

[james_s]

I don't really mind too much, the only real hassle is the gutters, otherwise I just sweep them off the walkway and blow them off the roof. I have an electric leaf blower for that, I loathe gas leaf blowers. The neighbor next to our vacation cabin often spends hours using that infernal screaming thing to blow leaves off his perfectly manicured lawn out in the woods, it's stupid. Then the wind will blow and by the next day there are leaves all over again. I just leave them on the ground.

[aqarwaen]

for extra security you could add ome thic steel chain into stand pipe,where your you security box is standing on..it would be pain to saw it though it with electric metal saw,if thief really wanted to steal ibox content

[james_s]

It's really not necessary and I'm not sure how that is even relevant here. There's nothing wrong with the mailbox, the problem is that my stuff wasn't put into it and many things can't fit or can't be delivered there.

The problem is people grabbing stuff off porches, I want to catch those that do, not mask the problem.

[Rerouter]

For your neighbour. His infernal screeching machine has a vacuum mode and a collection bag which instead mulches all of the leaves into a bag ready to put into a compost pile

[Mr. Scram]

Hello, I found this car on a website: spam link removed that talks about car repairs and tips. I would like to know the make and model of this car to look for other darker colors.

I'm not sure that's how this thread works, but that looks like a customised older model Dodge Charger. Shouldn't be too far from the 2013 model.

[nctnico]

It's really not necessary and I'm not sure how that is even relevant here. There's nothing wrong with the mailbox, the problem is that my stuff wasn't put into it and many things can't fit or can't be delivered there.

The problem is people grabbing stuff off porches, I want to catch those that do, not mask the problem.

IMHO it is more like a sign that times are changing. It is quite amazing that leaving parcels out in the open has worked for so long where you live. In many others countries you'd be completely nuts to even consider doing something like that. Over here they try to deliver parcels to the neighbours or take it to a pickup-point (which usually is a shop nearby). Leaving parcels on people's doorstep is a total no-go over here.

All in all the real problem is that the delivery companies should change their ways and no longer leave parcels on people's doorstep.

[james_s]

I live on a quiet street in what has become an upscale suburb. You've pretty much got to be at least middle class to live anywhere in the vicinity and most of the homeless, addicts and criminal types tend to congregate to the bigger cities like Seattle and more blue collar areas like Renton and Everett. Woodinville has just not historically had a lot of crime, although a teacher I had in middleschool was murdered a few years ago and I don't think they ever caught whoever did it so obviously nobody is immune.

Stealing mail is also one of those things that for the most part people just didn't tend to do. The penalties if caught far (up to 5 years in federal prison)  outweigh the gains one is likely to get compared to other crimes.

On top of all that, until the last 20 years or so this area was a bit "out in the sticks" and still had a bit of a redneck element. Trespassing and stealing something off someone's porch is the sort of thing that could get you shot if they happened to be home.

[james_s]

Ok well I got a bit of info from another source that I thought I'd update here:

"Toyota employee here, to be VERY specific that is a 2013-2015 XLE trim Highlander, as only those came with that wheel style as well as a sunroof (seen popped up in the vent position) Hope that helps the authorities narrow it down.These wheels are also available on post 2015 LE models, however those do not come with a sunroof. the grille design is also indicative of the '13-'15 model."

Sooo I'd say we've identified that car to the best degree that's gonna happen without finding that exact car. I've still got my eyes peeled, I've seen loads of gray Highlanders around since I started looking, in fact I noticed my neighbors right across the street have one, but none that I've seen have this style of wheels so there is hope it will turn up.

[SilverSolder]

What's it like working with the Postal Inspectors...  do they get back to you, do they get new information from you,  etc. -  or is it pretty much a "write only device" where you never hear anything back?

[james_s]

I don't really know, this is the first time I've ever had to report an incident. I have not heard anything back from them yet, however I also did not really have any worthwhile information at the time.

At least with this pair that hit me, I believe they are the same people who got into a garage and car the next street over a couple days later which counts as burglary, and then looking at the local crime map there have been a couple other mail thefts around the same 4pm time frame in neighboring cities so they may be making a habit of this. If that is the case, then it's just a matter of time before they get cocky and get caught, at which point video evidence can link them all together.

[CatalinaWOW]

Don't expect much from the postal inspectors in terms of feedback.  My box is one of a row of about ten in a rural area.  Last year they were all attacked, along with many others along about two miles of road nearby.  Most are unlocked, though my wife talked me into making ours locking (over my objections at the time that it wasn't necessary).  They did try to get into mine and left fingerprints.  The sheriff's office came and collected the prints and said that while they wouldn't be of much aid in finding the guilty party he was confident that they would eventually be grabbed on some crime or the other and the prints might be used to add to the charges at that time.

Never have received any feedback from either the PI or the sheriff, though the newspaper did report capture of three individuals who were believed to be behind mail theft in the area a few months later.  They were reported to still have possession of mail that would have come from the theft on our group of boxes.

[Stray Electron]

   I have to agree.  A friend of mine has one of those large community mailboxes in the front of his business and last year a car thief stole my friend's truck and ran over the mail box and destroyed it. My friend checked with a local store and found video footage of the thief and was able to identify him but neither the police or the postal authorities would would act on on the information. The USPS put up a new box but didn't even bother to take the old mail box away. "Postal Inspectors" are an empty threat.

[SilverSolder]

[...] found video footage of the thief and was able to identify him but neither the police or the postal authorities would would act on on the information.  [...]

God forbid that you do something about it yourself, of course...   then they would definitely become interested.

[james_s]

It does seem like the laws are ever more stacked in favor of the crooks and against the victims. All the familiar politics have crept into that as well. I personally view thieves, particularly those that break into homes to be amongst the lowest rungs of society. It would not bother me if they were simply exterminated, the cost to society far outweighs the monetary value of the items stolen and often they are picked up over and over and over, only to get a slap on the wrist and they're back out victimizing someone else.

[soldar]

It does seem like the laws are ever more stacked in favor of the crooks and against the victims. All the familiar politics have crept into that as well. I personally view thieves, particularly those that break into homes to be amongst the lowest rungs of society. It would not bother me if they were simply exterminated, the cost to society far outweighs the monetary value of the items stolen and often they are picked up over and over and over, only to get a slap on the wrist and they're back out victimizing someone else.

I, having been the victim of burglaries and other petty crime, understand and share the way you feel.  It seems it is that way in pretty much all western countries. Definitely that way in Spain where thieves and pickpockets can be arrested dozens of times with little or no consequence and so the police do not even bother to prosecute minor crimes. It is a shame.

Having said that, petty crime is not a simple problem to resolve. Harsh laws and heavy penalties might seem like a simple and obvious solution but it is not really working much anywhere. America already has the highest incarceration rate by far so that does not seem to be the answer.

Simplistic solutions do not usually work in engineering and they do not usually work socially. America has very harsh laws against drugs and yet the drug problem has not gone away at all. The simplistic approach of locking them up has not worked. European countries have tried to understand the problem and find practical solutions rather than take the morality = punishment approach. Trying to help drug addicts seems to work better than just incarcerating them.

I believe petty crime is a complex issue which would need to be approached by trying to understand the causes rather than just hand out harsh punishments which, no doubt about it, is part of the answer.  But, think about it, young people are stupid and will do stupid things regardless of consequences. Punishment does not even enter their minds.

Mostly what keeps young people from petty crime is living in a tight-knit society where everybody knows everybody, where you would be shamed and ashamed if caught. But western societies are moving away from that. Nobody knows their neighbors and nobody wants to know their neighbors. We all want to be totally private and independent and free.

I am not familiar with Japan but I get the feeling it is still a society with strong social and family ties ... and very low crime.

Many if not most kids will do something stupid in their lives. A stern but loving talk from a parent or relative or neighbor will usually have much more positive effect than a year in the pen.

 
Dear kindly Sergeant Krupke,
You gotta understand,
It's just our bringin' up-ke
That gets us out of hand.

Having said that, if I were king I would make it legal to castrate on the spot anyone caught stealing red-handed. I've had enough.

[james_s]

I almost think it would be more effective to just execute people who commit certain crimes. I believe in second chances but once someone has been busted for the same crime 10+ times I really have very little sympathy, at some point it becomes obvious that they are never going to be anything but a drain on society.

I would absolutely support a law that shields a homeowner or resident from any liability for injuries anyone receives in the process of committing a crime. There have been a number of cases where someone breaks into a house, hurts themselves somehow and then successfully sues the homeowner. At least in one recent event sanity prevailed and a package thief who slipped and broke her ankle tried to sue and was promptly thrown out of court.

[SiliconWizard]

I would absolutely support a law that shields a homeowner or resident from any liability for injuries anyone receives in the process of committing a crime. There have been a number of cases where someone breaks into a house, hurts themselves somehow and then successfully sues the homeowner.

I agree. The fact the intruder could ever sue is mind-boggling.
 

[Brumby]

I'd suggest putting up warning signs around the house - for example "Danger.  High Voltage.  Keep Out" around the test bench, so that if they touch something and get a shock, you could say that appropriate warning was given.  Or "Slippery surfaces" on the kitchen door - and if they happen to break in through the kitchen ceiling and not enter through a door, you could still demonstrate warning was given and the fact that they opted to break through from a direction that was not intended for access meant they bypassed the warning.


But the whole idea of having to even consider this sort of thing is ridiculous.

[ebastler]

Hello, I found this car on a website: XXX that talks about car repairs and tips. I would like to know the make and model of this car to look for other darker colors.

I'm not sure that's how this thread works, but that looks like a customised older model Dodge Charger. Shouldn't be too far from the 2013 model.

@Mr. Scram -- as the moderators have now removed Osmar's link-spamming post from this thread, and have banned Osmar, could you please remove the link from the quote in your post as well? 

[james_s]

I'd suggest putting up warning signs around the house - for example "Danger.  High Voltage.  Keep Out" around the test bench, so that if they touch something and get a shock, you could say that appropriate warning was given.  Or "Slippery surfaces" on the kitchen door - and if they happen to break in through the kitchen ceiling and not enter through a door, you could still demonstrate warning was given and the fact that they opted to break through from a direction that was not intended for access meant they bypassed the warning.


But the whole idea of having to even consider this sort of thing is ridiculous.

I refuse to even play that game. If someone breaks in and gets hurt/killed by messing with my stuff then at least I'll have something to smile about while I'm sitting in jail.

[soldar]

I refuse to even play that game. If someone breaks in and gets hurt/killed by messing with my stuff then at least I'll have something to smile about while I'm sitting in jail.

My understanding is you cannot set traps but if an intruder suffers an accident then you are not responsible. Burglars have broken into my home by breaking a basement window and dropping about 5' to the floor. I would never dream of placing an obvious trap but what if I happened to store just under that window something with spikes covered by a very light cloth or plastic to protect it from the dust? And what if just next to it there was a shelf with something caustic which happened to fall on the guy. Plausibly just an unfortunate accident, nothing intentional. Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink.

[james_s]

My understanding is you cannot set traps but if an intruder suffers an accident then you are not responsible. Burglars have broken into my home by breaking a basement window and dropping about 5' to the floor. I would never dream of placing an obvious trap but what if I happened to store just under that window something with spikes covered by a very light cloth or plastic to protect it from the dust? And what if just next to it there was a shelf with something caustic which happened to fall on the guy. Plausibly just an unfortunate accident, nothing intentional. Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink.

I have no idea what the laws are like where you are, but I would certainly consider something like that. Borrow a welder and make some artistic scrap metal sculptures.

[Mr. Scram]

@Mr. Scram -- as the moderators have now removed Osmar's link-spamming post from this thread, and have banned Osmar, could you please remove the link from the quote in your post as well? 

It's done. I was so eager to help I overlooked it was a spammer. I just figured it was some guy looking for a dream car. 

[Mr. Scram]

I almost think it would be more effective to just execute people who commit certain crimes. I believe in second chances but once someone has been busted for the same crime 10+ times I really have very little sympathy, at some point it becomes obvious that they are never going to be anything but a drain on society.

I would absolutely support a law that shields a homeowner or resident from any liability for injuries anyone receives in the process of committing a crime. There have been a number of cases where someone breaks into a house, hurts themselves somehow and then successfully sues the homeowner. At least in one recent event sanity prevailed and a package thief who slipped and broke her ankle tried to sue and was promptly thrown out of court.

The death penalty isn't an effective deterrent nor a cheap solution. They tried a lighter variant of your plan with the three strikes system and that turned into a disaster as well.

[james_s]

The death penalty isn't an effective deterrent nor a cheap solution. They tried a lighter variant of your plan with the three strikes system and that turned into a disaster as well.

It's an effective way to prevent re-offense though. It doesn't have to be expensive either, but it is made that way by an excessively complex system, something that we are very good at.

I don't think there is a perfect solution but what we have right now is not working. Just the other day I read an article about police officers in Seattle being so frustrated because they will sometimes arrest somebody and book them, only to have them back out on the street later that day getting arrested again by the same officer committing some other crime. This is just absurd, the general public is virtually helpless against being victimized over and over again by idiots with nothing to lose who know that getting busted is nothing more than a temporary inconvenience with a hot meal.

[Black Phoenix]

It's an effective way to prevent re-offense though. It doesn't have to be expensive either, but it is made that way by an excessively complex system, something that we are very good at.

I don't think there is a perfect solution but what we have right now is not working. Just the other day I read an article about police officers in Seattle being so frustrated because they will sometimes arrest somebody and book them, only to have them back out on the street later that day getting arrested again by the same officer committing some other crime. This is just absurd, the general public is virtually helpless against being victimized over and over again by idiots with nothing to lose who know that getting busted is nothing more than a temporary inconvenience with a hot meal.

Exactly the same in Portugal for petty crimes. Officers arrest the person, on the same day he is present to count, and it's released before the officer even finished filling the paperwork at the count. That makes them not even worry to catch them when they are reported. There are a non spoken law in Portugal that police arrives in the crime scene 30 min after it was reported, that way it gives time for them to go. Saw that happening some times, specially during a time were we had a lot of ATM break ins using Propane Gas tanks and car batteries (Fill the machine with propane gas through the money dispenser door, then light up the gas to blow the safe that contains the drawers with the money, until banks started using drawers with paint that damages the notes).

[james_s]

Also my recollection of the Three Strikes rule is that quite a few of the people it caught were drug users with addictions. Personally I don't care if someone uses drugs, I mean I know that a lot of crime is an indirect result of drugs but I'm not going to suggest we should throw someone in prison for just the using drugs part. Especially drugs like marijuana that are not much different than alcohol, easily the most widely abused and deadly recreational drug in existence. I also don't know if three is the magic number here, but I think at some point there is a line where we should be able to say "You know what, you're done, you've had chance after chance after chance and you're still out there victimizing people" and just kick them out of society. Maybe that means execution, maybe that means drop them off in the middle of someplace like Somalia and let them fend for themselves, I don't know. There is a point though where it is clear that someone is just never going to get themselves together and stop being a danger and a nuisance to everyone else.

[james_s]

Exactly the same in Portugal for petty crimes. Officers arrest the person, on the same day he is present to count, and it's released before the officer even finished filling the paperwork at the count. That makes them not even worry to catch them when they are reported. There are a non spoken law in Portugal that police arrives in the crime scene 30 min after it was reported, that way it gives time for them to go. Saw that happening some times, specially during a time were we had a lot of ATM break ins using Propane Gas tanks and car batteries (Fill the machine with propane gas through the money dispenser door, then light up the gas to blow the safe that contains the drawers with the money, until banks started using drawers with paint that damages the notes).

Seems like what they need is a hydrocarbon sensor controlling a spark igniter inside the machine, ignite any gas that is sprayed in there immediately before an adequate concentration can build up to cause an explosion. Cheap, simple, likely pretty effective.

[SiliconWizard]

I'd suggest putting up warning signs around the house - for example "Danger.  High Voltage.  Keep Out" around the test bench, so that if they touch something and get a shock, you could say that appropriate warning was given.

You can see those kind of warnings also around some houses when people have dogs (or at least less so these days, but I remember seeing those signs when I was a kid).

Unfortunately (not 100% sure, but I think I've already read about similar cases), it doesn't seem to hold much value, as if the intruder gets injured, you might still get sued even if you put huge warnings everywhere. (And what if the intruder can't read anyway? They could always try to pull that off.) I even think putting some kind of traps around your house (inside your property of course) would be illegal in many countries.

[james_s]

I'm pretty sure deliberate traps are illegal pretty much everywhere, the reason being they are not discerning. There have been cases of people going to the wrong house by genuine mistake, easier to do in those developments with a bunch of identical houses or townhomes. Also small children may not know any better, or the police may show up with a search warrant. As much as I loath anyone who breaks into a home I can see the reason for the law against traps. Still there are situations where I'd deploy one if it were legal.

[SiliconWizard]

Oh, I can understand why that would be made illegal. But that just shows how difficult it can be to actually defend yourself and your property.

Of course, the worst, as we said above, is when you actually never added any deliberate "trap" or dangerous items, the intruder still manages to injure themselves, and you get sued. But then anything could be used against you. Did you perhaps postpone fixing your front porch stairs, you're used to it and planned to fix this the next week, but some intruder falls and breaks a leg. Or that could be anything even much more mundane than this.

Either way, as, as you said, someone could be intruding without knowing or have bad intentions, that's good that laws exist to protect those cases. But if it's been clearly established that the intruder was knowingly intruding for an unlawful reason, the law should just state that the intruder does it under their FULL responsbility for any damage that could occur to them or to anyone else.

[Mr. Scram]

It's an effective way to prevent re-offense though. It doesn't have to be expensive either, but it is made that way by an excessively complex system, something that we are very good at.

I don't think there is a perfect solution but what we have right now is not working. Just the other day I read an article about police officers in Seattle being so frustrated because they will sometimes arrest somebody and book them, only to have them back out on the street later that day getting arrested again by the same officer committing some other crime. This is just absurd, the general public is virtually helpless against being victimized over and over again by idiots with nothing to lose who know that getting busted is nothing more than a temporary inconvenience with a hot meal.

It likely isn't an effective way to prevent re-offense. These things are never as straightforward as you'd think and violent crime has been reported to go up in places introducing the death penalty. People who know they're on the hook for serious crimes do anything and everything to stay out of the hands of law enforcement as getting caught will have serious consequences. Instead of a deterrent it's a reason to do whatever it takes to minimise getting caught. Severe penalties don't turn out to be effective as you don't address the underlying problem. Doing that is hard though and often impopulair as it's seen as being soft. Some heavy handed chest beating is much more popular even though it tends to be woefully useless and counterproductive.

[james_s]

While the latter point is valid, I'm at a loss as to how someone that is executed can re-offend. Best outcome of home invasions and similar crimes I think is when the homeowner confronts them red handed and drops them on the spot.

[CatalinaWOW]

Oh, I can understand why that would be made illegal. But that just shows how difficult it can be to actually defend yourself and your property.

Of course, the worst, as we said above, is when you actually never added any deliberate "trap" or dangerous items, the intruder still manages to injure themselves, and you get sued. But then anything could be used against you. Did you perhaps postpone fixing your front porch stairs, you're used to it and planned to fix this the next week, but some intruder falls and breaks a leg. Or that could be anything even much more mundane than this.

Either way, as, as you said, someone could be intruding without knowing or have bad intentions, that's good that laws exist to protect those cases. But if it's been clearly established that the intruder was knowingly intruding for an unlawful reason, the law should just state that the intruder does it under their FULL responsbility for any damage that could occur to them or to anyone else.

While it is possible that someone is intruding without knowing or having bad intentions, anyone who enters another persons property without permission should bear much responsibility for the consequences.  While there have been cases awarded in US law for someone's injury while breaking and entering, or just delivering a sales flyer or whatever there should be no requirement for an owner to maintain all elements of his property in top safety condition at all times.  The obvious example is a summer cabin which is abandoned every winter when snow makes access difficult or impossible.  Someone who snowshoes in and seeks shelter from a storm should be responsible for the injury that occurred because snow had not been removed from the stairs. 

Common sense is often and element that is missing from the law.  A prominent example current in the US are the ambulance chaser ads covering the TV with regards to Roundup Weedkiller.  The ads literally say that a jury found that Roundup caused cancers in people, and cites this as proof that Roundup is unsafe.  Regardless of whether Roundup is good, bad or indifferent the evidence on the subject should be medical studies, environmental studies and other factual data, not the decision of twelve random people off of the street.

[Mr. Scram]

While the latter point is valid, I'm at a loss as to how someone that is executed can re-offend. Best outcome of home invasions and similar crimes I think is when the homeowner confronts them red handed and drops them on the spot.

Many aren't caught now either which is part of the problem. Can't execute what you don't catch. Obviously the ones easily caught now also become alot more evasive and will make a mess of things when you try. Regardless it's pretty obvious that just executing people fairly willy nilly isn't any kind of real solution. You're still not fixing any of the underlying problems. An overly simplistic approach to complicated problems fairly reliably exacerbates them. Not to mention some less savoury regimes around the world already do something to that effect and those are hardly crime free zones.

[james_s]

I do not have confirmation but it sounds like this may be the pair that hit my street. They have pictures of the guy but I didn't see one of his girlfriend Leslie Hildreth. They were caught in a stolen Toyota Highlander of the correct color and model attempting to sell stolen property and were wanted in on multiple counts of package theft and burglary amongst more serious charges. I'll post an update if I do find out with any certainty that these are the same people.

https://www.facebook.com/DavidRoseQ13FOX/posts/2650437041646090

[james_s]

Ok found her facebook page, not much on it but there is one picture. Doesn't show her build but look at her hair, it sure looks like the same light golden blonde visible in my surveillance footage.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Ok found her facebook page, not much on it but there is one picture. Doesn't show her build but look at her hair, it sure looks like the same light golden blonde visible in my surveillance footage.

No pics of the infamous ankle tattoo?

[Stray Electron]

I do not have confirmation but it sounds like this may be the pair that hit my street. They have pictures of the guy but I didn't see one of his girlfriend Leslie Hildreth. They were caught in a stolen Toyota Highlander of the correct color and model attempting to sell stolen property and were wanted in on multiple counts of package theft and burglary amongst more serious charges. I'll post an update if I do find out with any certainty that these are the same people.

https://www.facebook.com/DavidRoseQ13FOX/posts/2650437041646090

    This article https://q13fox.com/2019/08/16/zachary-kier-convicted-felon-wanted-for-marysville-hit-and-run-that-left-his-passenger-on-life-support/ says that he wasn't allowed to leave King County without the permission of his parole officer.  If your house is outside of King Co then maybe you can show your videos to the States Attorney and get some time added to his sentence. Plus even more time for your and your neighbors' package thefts.

[Mr. Scram]

Are you sure that's her? There seem to be more blonde women by that name.

[james_s]

I'm in King County so that on its own isn't an issue.

I'm about 95% sure that's the right girl due to other factors. Doesn't *really* matter anyway since this pair has been picked up already. Now whether it does any good I don't know but hopefully at least the injury hit & run will stick.

Here's a picture from another video which caught them during a spree in a nearby city where they followed an Amazon truck around and stole a whole bunch of packages. It's pretty clear that it's the same person, she's wearing the same cheap costume men's hat which is again on backwards. She has the same blonde hair which many people thought was a wig but now I think it's just dyed. She has the same black shoes with white soles which are unusually large for a girl, she's wearing the same style of black yoga pants, has what looks to me to be the same gait when she runs, and this video caught her face, although not as clearly as would be ideal.

[SilverSolder]

Imagine that turning up as your daughter-in-law...   

The necklace in the earlier picture may be the same motif as the tattoos.

[RoGeorge]