How does water actually kill electronics?

[T3sl4co1l]

Let me get my sword.

[coppercone2]

[Beamin]

First blood: Oxygen/water oxides metal in a primary cell structure with water+salt electrolyte.
Double kill: Oxidized metal further reacts with CO2/water to form crumbly, porous and hydroscopic metal carbonate/hydroxide.
Triple kill: Air pollutant reacts with carbonate/hydroxide to form more metal salt.
Knock out: Upon powering on, the messy gunk conducts electricity and kills circuits.

How does CO2 react with a metal oxide? CO2 is pretty stable and doesn't react with much since it is "already burnt". most go from oxide to hydroxide with water. Also the remaining O2 would have to react with more metal as O2 gas wouldn't form without more energy being added to it.Reminds me of how people on youtube try to tell people they can make chlorine gas from salt water using electrolysis. The water breaks down long before the ionic bond does. Simple electronegativity really. Those comments always start with "One time I made..." "I used to make..." No you didn't.

[IanB]

How does CO2 react with a metal oxide?

By chemical reaction.

CO2 is pretty stable and doesn't react with much since it is "already burnt".

CO2 is an acid anhydride and is somewhat reactive and corrosive.

most go from oxide to hydroxide with water.

They also go to acid salts with an acid. Carbonic acid is a weak acid and more complex reactions occur involving both carbonate and hydroxide groups, but reactions do occur.

Also the remaining O2 would have to react with more metal as O2 gas wouldn't form without more energy being added to it.

What remaining O2?

Reminds me of how people on youtube try to tell people they can make chlorine gas from salt water using electrolysis.

You can indeed get chlorine from electrolysis of brine.

The water breaks down long before the ionic bond does. Simple electronegativity really.

Have you tried it?

Those comments always start with "One time I made..." "I used to make..." No you didn't.

Maybe you should try the experiment before judging others?

[Beamin]

How does CO2 react with a metal oxide?

By chemical reaction.

CO2 is pretty stable and doesn't react with much since it is "already burnt".

CO2 is an acid anhydride and is somewhat reactive and corrosive.

most go from oxide to hydroxide with water.

They also go to acid salts with an acid. Carbonic acid is a weak acid and more complex reactions occur involving both carbonate and hydroxide groups, but reactions do occur.

Also the remaining O2 would have to react with more metal as O2 gas wouldn't form without more energy being added to it.

What remaining O2?

Reminds me of how people on youtube try to tell people they can make chlorine gas from salt water using electrolysis.

You can indeed get chlorine from electrolysis of brine.

The water breaks down long before the ionic bond does. Simple electronegativity really.

Have you tried it?

Those comments always start with "One time I made..." "I used to make..." No you didn't.

Maybe you should try the experiment before judging others?

I have tried these. I have even worked with carbonic acid in chem courses in college. From that experience I state that CO2 is quite non reactive, if it was it would destroy your teeth when you drink soda (the phosphoric acid in coke and brown "cola" products is what destroys you teeth since it dissociates twice; acting like you exposed them to acid twice, yes we put a child's tooth in coke and after 2 days it was gone)  How do you make free Cl2 from brine/salt water solutions? You would have excess Na that would react and complicate things. Every time you see on youtube for example; cody's lab and nile red, so we can all watch the experiment, they never make chlorine using brine, they usually use HCl and TCA (pool tablets have a C,N,O,Cl benzene ring structure shaped like TNT.) Why would they go through this trouble if they only need salt and a battery? The energy needed for a covalent bond to break is a few volts while an ionic salt bond is much greater.

[bloguetronica]

First blood: Oxygen/water oxides metal in a primary cell structure with water+salt electrolyte.
Double kill: Oxidized metal further reacts with CO2/water to form crumbly, porous and hydroscopic metal carbonate/hydroxide.
Triple kill: Air pollutant reacts with carbonate/hydroxide to form more metal salt.
Knock out: Upon powering on, the messy gunk conducts electricity and kills circuits.

How does CO2 react with a metal oxide? CO2 is pretty stable and doesn't react with much since it is "already burnt". most go from oxide to hydroxide with water. Also the remaining O2 would have to react with more metal as O2 gas wouldn't form without more energy being added to it.Reminds me of how people on youtube try to tell people they can make chlorine gas from salt water using electrolysis. The water breaks down long before the ionic bond does. Simple electronegativity really. Those comments always start with "One time I made..." "I used to make..." No you didn't.

CO2 is not very inert once in water. It ionizes in the form of carbonic acid when dissolved in water and it may corrode copper. Add electricity to that, and you've got a reaction where the more positive traces get corroded. Even without electricity, carbonic acid corrodes copper. This is why copper roofs get a green patina over time: it is because this reaction forms copper (II) carbonate. This reaction can be accelerated in the presence of oxigen, where copper (II) hydroxide forms to combine with the carbonic acid.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

[T3sl4co1l]

FYI, the hydration constant is pretty small, i.e., most CO2 is present as dissolved CO2, not as carbonic acid.

The further ionization (carbonic acid to bicarbonate) is also quite modest.

As it happens, the equilibrium between CO2 and H2CO3 is pretty slow.  This is easily seen when titrating a carbonate salt.  For this reason, your body has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_anhydrase

Tim

[Beamin]

FYI, the hydration constant is pretty small, i.e., most CO2 is present as dissolved CO2, not as carbonic acid.

The further ionization (carbonic acid to bicarbonate) is also quite modest.

As it happens, the equilibrium between CO2 and H2CO3 is pretty slow.  This is easily seen when titrating a carbonate salt.  For this reason, your body has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_anhydrase

Tim

How do you know everything about everything? Seriously I have as much knowledge as you but only in very narrow fields. So I don't know shit really. Here is an interesting fact where the bi in bicarbonate comes from:

"there is twice as much carbonate (CO2−3) per sodium ion in sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) and other bicarbonates than in sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) and other carbonates"

[apis]

So? Most people here have finished middle school, so what's the surprise?

Most, but clearly not everyone.

[T3sl4co1l]

How do you know everything about everything? Seriously I have as much knowledge as you but only in very narrow fields. So I don't know shit really. Here is an interesting fact where the bi in bicarbonate comes from:

"there is twice as much carbonate (CO2−3) per sodium ion in sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) and other bicarbonates than in sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) and other carbonates"

I take a strong interest in scientific subjects and have read voraciously in them.  I've also taken college level courses in most of them.

I wouldn't have particularly cared to do equilibria myself, but college-level courses cover that early and often.  It's a powerful tool: rather than simply noting some things react with others, and some things precipitate and some remain soluble; instead, we can calculate precisely which ones will happen, and to what level.  All the relevant constants have been measured*, and we merely need to put them together with simple ratios.

For example, iron hydroxide has a very low solubility constant, hence why it forms such tenacious stains.  Aluminum hydroxide is quite insoluble as well, but it has strong formation constants for a variety of ions.  The concentration of which vary with pH.  So that, while aluminum hydroxide is for the most part very insoluble, just a small change in pH, in the direction of acid or base as it happens, can dissolve enough to make environmental problems in waterways and soils.

*The problem of course comes when you can't find the one constant you're looking for, in the literature.  Or you can't find all of them for a given system, because some elements form many complex ions, and you need to know the relations between all of them to fully solve for the concentration of any one of them (much as you need to know all the resistances and connections in a circuit to solve for the voltage at just one point).  In that case, you may have to do more basic research to find those missing constants yourself (e.g., set up the system and measure the concentrations of ions -- it helps if the ions are colored so you can use a simple method like spectrophotometry to monitor them).

Tim

[IanB]

I wouldn't have particularly cared to do equilibria myself, but college-level courses cover that early and often.  It's a powerful tool: rather than simply noting some things react with others, and some things precipitate and some remain soluble; instead, we can calculate precisely which ones will happen, and to what level.  All the relevant constants have been measured*, and we merely need to put them together with simple ratios.

For example, iron hydroxide has a very low solubility constant, hence why it forms such tenacious stains.  Aluminum hydroxide is quite insoluble as well, but it has strong formation constants for a variety of ions.  The concentration of which vary with pH.  So that, while aluminum hydroxide is for the most part very insoluble, just a small change in pH, in the direction of acid or base as it happens, can dissolve enough to make environmental problems in waterways and soils.

*The problem of course comes when you can't find the one constant you're looking for, in the literature.  Or you can't find all of them for a given system, because some elements form many complex ions, and you need to know the relations between all of them to fully solve for the concentration of any one of them (much as you need to know all the resistances and connections in a circuit to solve for the voltage at just one point).  In that case, you may have to do more basic research to find those missing constants yourself (e.g., set up the system and measure the concentrations of ions -- it helps if the ions are colored so you can use a simple method like spectrophotometry to monitor them).

Tim

I have a direct concern with that subject now in my job as a chemical engineer. It turns out that doing calculations with ions and electrolyte systems is superficially straightforward (there are volumes of publications on the subject), but there are still many areas where the calculations are hard and uncertain, where the models and data are not adequate to describe problems of industrial interest. It remains a challenging field.

[retrolefty]

There are arc lamp pumped lasers that immerse the entire cavity including the lamp and electrical connections in rapidly flowing water. The key is that they have a fancy deionizing system that keeps the water very pure so that it isn't conductive.

 Indeed, at the refinery I worked at before retirement I had some responsibility for maintaining a very large VFD drive (like 7.5KV at 700 amps). It used 144 SCR devices that mounted uninsulated to copper tubing heat sink system. It too required a water deionizing system with pumps/filters/alarming to maintain it's non-conduction even at this high a voltage.

Pure deionzed water IS a good insulator, it just takes time and effort to keep it so.

[vk6zgo]

How does CO2 react with a metal oxide?

By chemical reaction.

CO2 is pretty stable and doesn't react with much since it is "already burnt".

CO2 is an acid anhydride and is somewhat reactive and corrosive.

most go from oxide to hydroxide with water.

They also go to acid salts with an acid. Carbonic acid is a weak acid and more complex reactions occur involving both carbonate and hydroxide groups, but reactions do occur.

Also the remaining O2 would have to react with more metal as O2 gas wouldn't form without more energy being added to it.

What remaining O2?

Reminds me of how people on youtube try to tell people they can make chlorine gas from salt water using electrolysis.

You can indeed get chlorine from electrolysis of brine.

The water breaks down long before the ionic bond does. Simple electronegativity really.

Have you tried it?

Those comments always start with "One time I made..." "I used to make..." No you didn't.

Maybe you should try the experiment before judging others?

I have tried these. I have even worked with carbonic acid in chem courses in college. From that experience I state that CO2 is quite non reactive, if it was it would destroy your teeth when you drink soda (the phosphoric acid in coke and brown "cola" products is what destroys you teeth since it dissociates twice; acting like you exposed them to acid twice, yes we put a child's tooth in coke and after 2 days it was gone)  How do you make free Cl2 from brine/salt water solutions? You would have excess Na that would react and complicate things. Every time you see on youtube for example; cody's lab and nile red, so we can all watch the experiment, they never make chlorine using brine, they usually use HCl and TCA (pool tablets have a C,N,O,Cl benzene ring structure shaped like TNT.) Why would they go through this trouble if they only need salt and a battery? The energy needed for a covalent bond to break is a few volts while an ionic salt bond is much greater.

Saltwater pools are probably the most common type in Australia.
They fill the pool with tap water, then pour a couple of 10kg bags of common salt (yes, the same stuff you use on the table) into the water.

The pool water is, over time, pumped through the filter, then through a cell which has about 12v DC applied to it, & back into the pool.

It does produce chlorine, although the precise form it is in, I don't know.
It shows up on testing strips as "chlorine" & when the system is working well, is all that is needed to maintain the pool in safe condition.

I qualify this as "when the system is working well", because we thought we had a "win" when we bought our house, as it had a large pool (67500 litres), which the previous owner had installed.

It turned out, he got "done" as the pump, filter & chlorinator combination was undersized for that sized pool.

We had all sorts of problems with it over the years, as our big gumtree delighted in dropping "gunk"into the pool.
The chlorinator couldn't handle all those impurities, even after we scooped all the large gunk out, so we often had to dump chlorine into the water.

We, thus, found out why our house was a similar price to the others without pools, & had been on the market longer.
People who have had one pool, avoid them like the plague!

[Beamin]

How does CO2 react with a metal oxide?

By chemical reaction.

CO2 is pretty stable and doesn't react with much since it is "already burnt".

CO2 is an acid anhydride and is somewhat reactive and corrosive.

most go from oxide to hydroxide with water.

They also go to acid salts with an acid. Carbonic acid is a weak acid and more complex reactions occur involving both carbonate and hydroxide groups, but reactions do occur.

Also the remaining O2 would have to react with more metal as O2 gas wouldn't form without more energy being added to it.

What remaining O2?

Reminds me of how people on youtube try to tell people they can make chlorine gas from salt water using electrolysis.

You can indeed get chlorine from electrolysis of brine.

The water breaks down long before the ionic bond does. Simple electronegativity really.

Have you tried it?

Those comments always start with "One time I made..." "I used to make..." No you didn't.

Maybe you should try the experiment before judging others?

I have tried these. I have even worked with carbonic acid in chem courses in college. From that experience I state that CO2 is quite non reactive, if it was it would destroy your teeth when you drink soda (the phosphoric acid in coke and brown "cola" products is what destroys you teeth since it dissociates twice; acting like you exposed them to acid twice, yes we put a child's tooth in coke and after 2 days it was gone)  How do you make free Cl2 from brine/salt water solutions? You would have excess Na that would react and complicate things. Every time you see on youtube for example; cody's lab and nile red, so we can all watch the experiment, they never make chlorine using brine, they usually use HCl and TCA (pool tablets have a C,N,O,Cl benzene ring structure shaped like TNT.) Why would they go through this trouble if they only need salt and a battery? The energy needed for a covalent bond to break is a few volts while an ionic salt bond is much greater.

Saltwater pools are probably the most common type in Australia.
They fill the pool with tap water, then pour a couple of 10kg bags of common salt (yes, the same stuff you use on the table) into the water.

The pool water is, over time, pumped through the filter, then through a cell which has about 12v DC applied to it, & back into the pool.

It does produce chlorine, although the precise form it is in, I don't know.
It shows up on testing strips as "chlorine" & when the system is working well, is all that is needed to maintain the pool in safe condition.

I qualify this as "when the system is working well", because we thought we had a "win" when we bought our house, as it had a large pool (67500 litres), which the previous owner had installed.

It turned out, he got "done" as the pump, filter & chlorinator combination was undersized for that sized pool.

We had all sorts of problems with it over the years, as our big gumtree delighted in dropping "gunk"into the pool.
The chlorinator couldn't handle all those impurities, even after we scooped all the large gunk out, so we often had to dump chlorine into the water.

We, thus, found out why our house was a similar price to the others without pools, & had been on the market longer.
People who have had one pool, avoid them like the plague!

Well I am more curious but still skeptical now, but you would have excess Na to deal if you are making Cl with which would turn to NaOH in water and generate heat, it would also generate H2. Heat, H2 and electricity... seems like you would try to avoid such things, especially in a consumer unit. Still don't understand how the bond in water wouldn't break before the nacl ( the water technically breaks the bonds but it is in an equilibrium like as if were a solid mass), it would also raise the ph of the pool.

[IanB]

Well I am more curious but still skeptical now, but you would have excess Na to deal if you are making Cl with which would turn to NaOH in water and generate heat, it would also generate H2. Heat, H2 and electricity... seems like you would try to avoid such things, especially in a consumer unit. Still don't understand how the bond in water wouldn't break before the nacl ( the water technically breaks the bonds but it is in an equilibrium like as if were a solid mass), it would also raise the ph of the pool.

The goal is not to make chlorine, but to make hypochlorite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochlorination

As to making chlorine from brine, this is an industrial process that has been around since the 19th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process

[Beamin]

Well I am more curious but still skeptical now, but you would have excess Na to deal if you are making Cl with which would turn to NaOH in water and generate heat, it would also generate H2. Heat, H2 and electricity... seems like you would try to avoid such things, especially in a consumer unit. Still don't understand how the bond in water wouldn't break before the nacl ( the water technically breaks the bonds but it is in an equilibrium like as if were a solid mass), it would also raise the ph of the pool.

The goal is not to make chlorine, but to make hypochlorite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochlorination

As to making chlorine from brine, this is an industrial process that has been around since the 19th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process

I see that makes sense... WAIT this is the internet; I CAN"T BE WRONG!!!
OMG UR SO stupid I have done this expirament many times when I workeding form NASA proving that you are wrong. The paper is titled: www.mit.edu/mit-harvard/stevenhawking/noelectrolysis/proving_ian_wrong.htm and shows how stupid U r...

And thats how you write a proper youtube comment in accepted APA style/format (Asshole posters of America)

[vk6zgo]

Well I am more curious but still skeptical now, but you would have excess Na to deal if you are making Cl with which would turn to NaOH in water and generate heat, it would also generate H2. Heat, H2 and electricity... seems like you would try to avoid such things, especially in a consumer unit. Still don't understand how the bond in water wouldn't break before the nacl ( the water technically breaks the bonds but it is in an equilibrium like as if were a solid mass), it would also raise the ph of the pool.

The goal is not to make chlorine, but to make hypochlorite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochlorination

As to making chlorine from brine, this is an industrial process that has been around since the 19th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process

Yes, it comes back to me now------it's quite a while since we got rid of the pool!!
When we had to "superchlorinate", the stuff we added was sodium hypochlorate.

The info that we got from the Pool shop also mentioned thst the chlorinator produced sodium hypochlorate.
The tank for removal of the hydrogen gas, referred to in the Wiki, is in this case, the pool itself.

Interestingly, this is a continuous process, as the water is flowing across, (or, in reality, through) the electrodes.

More on topic, my current Fluke 77 was dropped into a bucket of salty water, whilst I was attempting to use a method of finding the salt saturation via DC resistance.

Standing there with the meter in one hand, the leads in the other, & a piece of paper with a formula on it on the ground, weighted down with a calculator, something had to give.

I quickly dried the Fluke externally, opened it up, washed any areas the water had reached with tap water, then with "Methylated Spirits".
It's still working, 20 plus years later.

[T3sl4co1l]

FYI, a whole family of ions exists: chloride Cl-, hypochlorite ClO-, chlorite ClO2-, chlorate ClO3-, and perchlorate ClO4-.

Electrolysis generates some of the higher ions (mainly chlorate), but how much depends on the pH, concentration, and a few other tweaks.  (Chlorate cells normally run at high concentration (starting with saturated brine) and about pH = 6.  They emit some chlorine gas, but it's a very minor component -- more than enough to smell, but hardly enough to be worth capturing.)

At high pH, hypochlorite is favored; at low pH, chlorine gas is favored.  Hypochlorite may also be favored at low concentration, I don't know?

Probably, pool electrolysis still generates some chlorate, which can be broken down by lowering the pH (which creates the particularly nasty ClO2 gas, but at these concentrations it'll stay fully dissolved; at low pH, it reacts with chloride to make chlorine again).  I... don't know if this is actually a recommended procedure for pool maintenance; if it is, then that's the reason.

There are other chemicals that supply "chlorine" (as hypochlorite):
- Plain old bleach is around 6% sodium hypochlorite, with a good 6-8% chloride, the pair being the result of dissolving chlorine gas in NaOH.
- Solid pool chlorine (Pool Shock?) is usually calcium hypochlorite, which, I forget if it's more-or-less pure, or also a mix with CaCl2 (but probably not, because it's stable in air, whereas CaCl2 is hygroscopic), but it's got quite a lot of chlorine content (~30%??).
- The other common option is TCCA (trichlorocyanuric acid), or something similar to it; this is an organic compound, something like chlorine stuck together in solid form with the help of N2 and CO2, which it all returns to when dissolved.

Tim

[Beamin]

FYI, a whole family of ions exists: chloride Cl-, hypochlorite ClO-, chlorite ClO2-, chlorate ClO3-, and perchlorate ClO4-.

Electrolysis generates some of the higher ions (mainly chlorate), but how much depends on the pH, concentration, and a few other tweaks.  (Chlorate cells normally run at high concentration (starting with saturated brine) and about pH = 6.  They emit some chlorine gas, but it's a very minor component -- more than enough to smell, but hardly enough to be worth capturing.)

At high pH, hypochlorite is favored; at low pH, chlorine gas is favored.  Hypochlorite may also be favored at low concentration, I don't know?

Probably, pool electrolysis still generates some chlorate, which can be broken down by lowering the pH (which creates the particularly nasty ClO2 gas, but at these concentrations it'll stay fully dissolved; at low pH, it reacts with chloride to make chlorine again).  I... don't know if this is actually a recommended procedure for pool maintenance; if it is, then that's the reason.

There are other chemicals that supply "chlorine" (as hypochlorite):
- Plain old bleach is around 6% sodium hypochlorite, with a good 6-8% chloride, the pair being the result of dissolving chlorine gas in NaOH.
- Solid pool chlorine (Pool Shock?) is usually calcium hypochlorite, which, I forget if it's more-or-less pure, or also a mix with CaCl2 (but probably not, because it's stable in air, whereas CaCl2 is hygroscopic), but it's got quite a lot of chlorine content (~30%??).
- The other common option is TCCA (trichlorocyanuric acid), or something similar to it; this is an organic compound, something like chlorine stuck together in solid form with the help of N2 and CO2, which it all returns to when dissolved.

Tim

So I have learned that as far as the Cl2 from electrolyzing brine yes it can be done BUT you have to have a special membrane and setup as well as other things potentially like mercury to make it work. Those people that say they did this in their kitchen with salt and a battery were full of it.


Fun fact: That nasty ClO2 you speak of is known as MMS or MAgic Miracle Solution and cures everything from Aids to malaria and autism. Well it doesn't really but it has killed some people and made everyone else that survived very sick. https://youtu.be/7ZU7OL5MRHI


If you think that's bad see all the people on youtube that think drinking turpentine is a good idea. Even when you spell out how dangerous it is they tell you that you are wrong.  But it's cleansing me of the toxins when I have projectile explosive diarrhea and vomiting, those are the toxins caused by chem trails

[tooki]

I’ve recently seen a few videos about those quack cures, the mind truly boggles. “Turpentine is safe, it’s just distilled natural pine sap!” 

And yeah, the formaldehyde in a vaccine (less than contained in an apple or produced in your body anyway) is daaaangerous, but high dose bleach is healthy...

And then there’s black salve...