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If the electrical energy is outside the wires, how is insulation protecting us?
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typoknig:

--- Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 03, 2022, 05:15:32 am ---"Aether" is a disproven hypothesis positing that the universe has a unique reference frame, and thus effects carried by that medium -- electromagnetism, or maybe gravity too, sure why not* -- show effects with respect to it.

--- End quote ---

Thanks.  I had never even hear the word "Aether" before.  I wasn't sure of the exact date, but knew April 1st was close and had to double check my calendar.  Aetherist, I do appreciate your input too, but I would really like to stick to what has been proven.  Based on what I've read here, I would really like the answer nigelwright7557 gave to be true because it is concise and it makes sense based on what I think I know:


--- Quote from: nigelwright7557 ---The energy is in the magnetic and electric fields which are at 90 degree's to each other.
Neither of which will shock you.
Shock is caused by electrons moving into your body.

--- End quote ---

If this is true then it just seems the videos are a bit over zealous with their insinuation that all energy is outside the wire.
aetherist:

--- Quote from: T3sl4co1l on April 03, 2022, 05:15:32 am ---
--- Quote from: RJHayward on April 03, 2022, 02:42:41 am ---   Sorry, but I'm relegating this, into the
'Tolerance Folder'.  You can't waste my time, and others ('eti' also expressed that, approx.), with your narrative relating to Physics, in ABSENCE of any other reference text, reference credentialed professor, reference diagrams, ANYTHING.
   I admit, My presentations are bad, partially, but: Did anybody make suggestions, before ?  I mean, that got ignored?

   Because, short of any more reading your dialog, I'm outa hereĀ„
--- End quote ---
"Aether" is a disproven hypothesis positing that the universe has a unique reference frame, and thus effects carried by that medium -- electromagnetism, or maybe gravity too, sure why not* -- show effects with respect to it.  This was a very reasonable supposition at the time -- wave mechanics were well known in the study of matter-based media, i.e. acoustic waves, gravity waves, etc.  In these phenomena, waves move with respect to the stuff of the medium itself, thus e.g. waves on a flowing river propagate faster (with respect to stationary ground) in the direction of flow.  Put another way: you get a Doppler effect all for free, when the medium is in relative motion.

*Aether predates relativity, but if they had known of gravitational waves at the time (or, really just been hinted at the possibility of such -- it's not much of a leap to suppose gravity might be carried by waves too), they'd have probably lumped it in as well.  Now, whether gravity has its own aether or is in fact the same as EM, wouldn't be so easy to determine given the information at the time.

EM aether theory was soundly considered disproven, after a series of experiments using interferometry to measure this supposed Doppler shift, gave a null result to extremely tight bounds: a modest fraction of the tangential velocity of the Earth.  Since the Earth is constantly in non-inertial motion (i.e. rotation on its axis and orbit), we should have no expectation that any particular time of day or year shows a consistent aether current with respect to it; and yet the observation was zero in all cases, no periodic change.

By this time (early 1900s), Einstein introduced Relativity; which, if you like, describes a kind of "aether", but one that is relative to any observer, specifically excluding any sort of unique or universal frame of reference.  A medium we today call spacetime.  Perhaps you could rescue "aether" by saying it's drawn along by any matter doing the observing, but that's quite a stretch.  Whereas the field equations are fully described and complete: as simple as can be, but no simpler.

Alternately, in the context of field theories, the field itself is a particular property of the universe, carrying waves of that particular type (i.e. EM waves, electron waves, quark waves, etc..), and coupling to other fields.  In a sense, these could be considered "aethers", and it turns out we have not one but many, one for each fundamental particle.  But this is, again, severely straining the usual meaning of "aether", and hence we call them what we do today -- particle fields.  These of course obey relativity (no special frame of reference, Lorentz invariant), at least the ones incorporating it such that they can.  (For example, you can take bog-standard quantum mechanics, which does not; but rolling in SR, and quite a lot of work later, you get QED, Quantum ElectroDynamics, a theory which describes to essentially exactness, essentially all of our everyday experience.  Adding the weak and strong fields, with their corresponding particles, and you get basically the Standard Model as we know it today, accommodating everything from atom smashing in particle accelerators, to neutron stars, and the first vanishingly small timesteps since the Big Bang.  It only leaves out GR, which has so far proven a tough fit with traditional field theories, and so mostly sits alongside on its own, in the Standard Model.)

I don't know (or care, frankly) if this [historical aether theories] is what aetherist is trying to promote here, but I agree with the conclusion that it is likely not worth ones' time.  (Or if you've properly set this thread on ignore, then consider this an FYI for all you other readers who should happen upon this thread. :) )  Tim
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The aetherwind has been detected in every proper MMX, the best i think being by Demjanov in 1968-72.

MMXs need to be in gas mode (Prof Reg Cahill, Adelaide). The modern vacuum versions of MMXs will not (did not)(could not) find any signal (vacuum can however give a very weak signal).

The aether provides an absolute reference frame, but it is not a universal reference frame, it is only a local reference frame, very local, koz the aetherwind changes with time & place, everywhere. The local background aetherwind is approx 500 km/s south to north approx 20 deg off Earth's axis. Demjanov found it to vary from 140 km/s to 480 km/s during a day (at Obninsk)(measured in the horizontal).

Aether is not dragged by matter, at least not by matter moving at a constant velocity. Acceleration does however drag aether.

The aether need not be called the luminiferous aether -- the aether gives us everything we see & feel. It is a gravitational aether, it is an electric aether, it is a magnetic aether. It is simply the aether.
RJSV:
Yes, but you didn't read a word, of that whole page you just quoted. So we readers get to wade through THAT copied page+ and then...A completely disjointed narration sounding like a history book.
...MMX had measured blah, blah blah.
What's MMX ? Is that where 2 men fight, in a ring, using skateboards ?  That was measured change to the 'hot air WIND', at 100.678 per.   There.
RJSV:
  Looking at the video, realized that the EM WAVES are in phase, so Electric and Magnetic, at any one point you choose, are both oscillating in phase. So the peak strengths both at same time.
   I almost think, by now, this needs a voting system...
But my take is:
   Looking at one point, say, on a COAX cable, there are times, when there is no field, as SINE shaped wave vibrates down the wire.  Opposite to that, there are times when there is no current, in the wire.
In my view, any current, time varying, produces the magnetic field, expands around the coax, or other configured cable, like twisted pair.  So it's both, outside wire, by fields moving, and in the wire, during times the electrons move. Electrons are moving in little back and forth oscillations, so there is a time (instant) when current is zero, ... then it reverses direction.
So both parameters are 'not' there, at certain instants, but the whole SINE wave is definitely there, moving past your vantage point. Moving as a current, in the wire, that's going to be the FORCE, of the current, not an electron mass pushing or anything; actual electron current is very slow, relatively.
And then, also, the energy, for doing work, moves outside the wire too. In fact, it's that moving field, in my opinion, that continually renews the wire's internal field and resulting current. Same thing the other way; sometimes the external fields are zero, and they get renewed, by the wire's current.
  All relates to that old idiom, about a lion chasing its tail. Both processes renew each other, in turn, going down the transmission line, or when considering one point in the line.
  Like I said: sometimes there is no field, but soon there will be, (as the SINE shaped wave builds back up).
SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: aetherist on April 03, 2022, 06:26:04 am ---The aether need not be called the luminiferous aether -- the aether gives us everything we see & feel. It is a gravitational aether, it is an electric aether, it is a magnetic aether. It is simply the aether.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, so it's 42.
But I'm curious about what this "theory" brings to the table, apart from saying that it's everywhere and is everything.
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