Author Topic: If the electrical energy is outside the wires, how is insulation protecting us?  (Read 9575 times)

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Offline typoknigTopic starter

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"Aether" is a disproven hypothesis positing that the universe has a unique reference frame, and thus effects carried by that medium -- electromagnetism, or maybe gravity too, sure why not* -- show effects with respect to it.

Thanks.  I had never even hear the word "Aether" before.  I wasn't sure of the exact date, but knew April 1st was close and had to double check my calendar.  Aetherist, I do appreciate your input too, but I would really like to stick to what has been proven.  Based on what I've read here, I would really like the answer nigelwright7557 gave to be true because it is concise and it makes sense based on what I think I know:

Quote from: nigelwright7557
The energy is in the magnetic and electric fields which are at 90 degree's to each other.
Neither of which will shock you.
Shock is caused by electrons moving into your body.

If this is true then it just seems the videos are a bit over zealous with their insinuation that all energy is outside the wire.
 
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Offline aetherist

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   Sorry, but I'm relegating this, into the
'Tolerance Folder'.  You can't waste my time, and others ('eti' also expressed that, approx.), with your narrative relating to Physics, in ABSENCE of any other reference text, reference credentialed professor, reference diagrams, ANYTHING.
   I admit, My presentations are bad, partially, but: Did anybody make suggestions, before ?  I mean, that got ignored?

   Because, short of any more reading your dialog, I'm outa hereĀ„
"Aether" is a disproven hypothesis positing that the universe has a unique reference frame, and thus effects carried by that medium -- electromagnetism, or maybe gravity too, sure why not* -- show effects with respect to it.  This was a very reasonable supposition at the time -- wave mechanics were well known in the study of matter-based media, i.e. acoustic waves, gravity waves, etc.  In these phenomena, waves move with respect to the stuff of the medium itself, thus e.g. waves on a flowing river propagate faster (with respect to stationary ground) in the direction of flow.  Put another way: you get a Doppler effect all for free, when the medium is in relative motion.

*Aether predates relativity, but if they had known of gravitational waves at the time (or, really just been hinted at the possibility of such -- it's not much of a leap to suppose gravity might be carried by waves too), they'd have probably lumped it in as well.  Now, whether gravity has its own aether or is in fact the same as EM, wouldn't be so easy to determine given the information at the time.

EM aether theory was soundly considered disproven, after a series of experiments using interferometry to measure this supposed Doppler shift, gave a null result to extremely tight bounds: a modest fraction of the tangential velocity of the Earth.  Since the Earth is constantly in non-inertial motion (i.e. rotation on its axis and orbit), we should have no expectation that any particular time of day or year shows a consistent aether current with respect to it; and yet the observation was zero in all cases, no periodic change.

By this time (early 1900s), Einstein introduced Relativity; which, if you like, describes a kind of "aether", but one that is relative to any observer, specifically excluding any sort of unique or universal frame of reference.  A medium we today call spacetime.  Perhaps you could rescue "aether" by saying it's drawn along by any matter doing the observing, but that's quite a stretch.  Whereas the field equations are fully described and complete: as simple as can be, but no simpler.

Alternately, in the context of field theories, the field itself is a particular property of the universe, carrying waves of that particular type (i.e. EM waves, electron waves, quark waves, etc..), and coupling to other fields.  In a sense, these could be considered "aethers", and it turns out we have not one but many, one for each fundamental particle.  But this is, again, severely straining the usual meaning of "aether", and hence we call them what we do today -- particle fields.  These of course obey relativity (no special frame of reference, Lorentz invariant), at least the ones incorporating it such that they can.  (For example, you can take bog-standard quantum mechanics, which does not; but rolling in SR, and quite a lot of work later, you get QED, Quantum ElectroDynamics, a theory which describes to essentially exactness, essentially all of our everyday experience.  Adding the weak and strong fields, with their corresponding particles, and you get basically the Standard Model as we know it today, accommodating everything from atom smashing in particle accelerators, to neutron stars, and the first vanishingly small timesteps since the Big Bang.  It only leaves out GR, which has so far proven a tough fit with traditional field theories, and so mostly sits alongside on its own, in the Standard Model.)

I don't know (or care, frankly) if this [historical aether theories] is what aetherist is trying to promote here, but I agree with the conclusion that it is likely not worth ones' time.  (Or if you've properly set this thread on ignore, then consider this an FYI for all you other readers who should happen upon this thread. :) )  Tim
The aetherwind has been detected in every proper MMX, the best i think being by Demjanov in 1968-72.

MMXs need to be in gas mode (Prof Reg Cahill, Adelaide). The modern vacuum versions of MMXs will not (did not)(could not) find any signal (vacuum can however give a very weak signal).

The aether provides an absolute reference frame, but it is not a universal reference frame, it is only a local reference frame, very local, koz the aetherwind changes with time & place, everywhere. The local background aetherwind is approx 500 km/s south to north approx 20 deg off Earth's axis. Demjanov found it to vary from 140 km/s to 480 km/s during a day (at Obninsk)(measured in the horizontal).

Aether is not dragged by matter, at least not by matter moving at a constant velocity. Acceleration does however drag aether.

The aether need not be called the luminiferous aether -- the aether gives us everything we see & feel. It is a gravitational aether, it is an electric aether, it is a magnetic aether. It is simply the aether.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 06:27:45 am by aetherist »
 

Online RJSV

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Yes, but you didn't read a word, of that whole page you just quoted. So we readers get to wade through THAT copied page+ and then...A completely disjointed narration sounding like a history book.
...MMX had measured blah, blah blah.
What's MMX ? Is that where 2 men fight, in a ring, using skateboards ?  That was measured change to the 'hot air WIND', at 100.678 per.   There.
 

Online RJSV

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  Looking at the video, realized that the EM WAVES are in phase, so Electric and Magnetic, at any one point you choose, are both oscillating in phase. So the peak strengths both at same time.
   I almost think, by now, this needs a voting system...
But my take is:
   Looking at one point, say, on a COAX cable, there are times, when there is no field, as SINE shaped wave vibrates down the wire.  Opposite to that, there are times when there is no current, in the wire.
In my view, any current, time varying, produces the magnetic field, expands around the coax, or other configured cable, like twisted pair.  So it's both, outside wire, by fields moving, and in the wire, during times the electrons move. Electrons are moving in little back and forth oscillations, so there is a time (instant) when current is zero, ... then it reverses direction.
So both parameters are 'not' there, at certain instants, but the whole SINE wave is definitely there, moving past your vantage point. Moving as a current, in the wire, that's going to be the FORCE, of the current, not an electron mass pushing or anything; actual electron current is very slow, relatively.
And then, also, the energy, for doing work, moves outside the wire too. In fact, it's that moving field, in my opinion, that continually renews the wire's internal field and resulting current. Same thing the other way; sometimes the external fields are zero, and they get renewed, by the wire's current.
  All relates to that old idiom, about a lion chasing its tail. Both processes renew each other, in turn, going down the transmission line, or when considering one point in the line.
  Like I said: sometimes there is no field, but soon there will be, (as the SINE shaped wave builds back up).
 

Online SiliconWizard

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The aether need not be called the luminiferous aether -- the aether gives us everything we see & feel. It is a gravitational aether, it is an electric aether, it is a magnetic aether. It is simply the aether.

Yeah, so it's 42.
But I'm curious about what this "theory" brings to the table, apart from saying that it's everywhere and is everything.
 

Online RJSV

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Wizard:
  My answer is that NOW, I'm curious about how to activate 'Block this Post author'
...while still having normal access, to that thread..
 
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Offline aetherist

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The aether need not be called the luminiferous aether -- the aether gives us everything we see & feel. It is a gravitational aether, it is an electric aether, it is a magnetic aether. It is simply the aether.
Yeah, so it's 42.
But I'm curious about what this "theory" brings to the table, apart from saying that it's everywhere and is everything.
Aether theory might help to explain lots of things. Re elekticity it explains why the speed of elekticity along a wire depends on the time of day.
If an aether then STR can't be true. If STR can't be true then i think that most of GTR can't be true.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 11:01:46 am by aetherist »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Go to your profile.  Buddies/Ignore List. Edit Ignore List. Add username.

Threads can be ignored by ticking the thread in your "view new replies|unread posts" list and clicking the ignore button.  They'll still show up in the plain forum sections, or search or whatever if you go looking, and can be clicked or removed in a similar location from your profile. :-+

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Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline TimFox

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Does it also depend on whether one's latitude is N or S?
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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If this is true then it just seems the videos are a bit over zealous with their insinuation that all energy is outside the wire.

The video is not insinuating. The energy that is transferred to the load IS outside the wires. If it were inside the wires, it would be dissipated by them.
 

Offline aetherist

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Yes, but you didn't read a word, of that whole page you just quoted. So we readers get to wade through THAT copied page+ and then...A completely disjointed narration sounding like a history book.
...MMX had measured blah, blah blah.
What's MMX ? Is that where 2 men fight, in a ring, using skateboards ?  That was measured change to the 'hot air WIND', at 100.678 per.   There.
Aether experiments in the oldendays were done based on the interferometer invented by Michelson. He did the first such X in 1881, u could call this an MX. Then he did others with Morley, u could call these MMXs. Then Morley did some with Miller, u could call these MMXs. Then Miller did some on his own, ie MXs. Then Michelson did some on his own, ie MXs. I sometimes call them MMMXs, koz of the three main guys involved over the years. But they are often referred to as MMXs. Modern versions are not usually called MMXs, unless they work much the same way as the oldendays Xs.
 

Offline aetherist

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Does it also depend on whether one's latitude is N or S?
Yes, the background aetherwind blows at say 500 km/s say 20 deg off Earth's axis.
Hence the horizontal component will depend on where u are on Earth, & what time of day (& what season of the year)(due to Earth's orbit).
Demjanov found that the horizontal component of the wind at Obninsk had a low of 140 km/s & a hi of 480 km/s.
My electons propagate at the speed of light, hence they could have a speed of c+480 or a speed of c-480, at Obninsk, during 24 hrs, depending on the direction of the (horizontal) wire.

If u happened to be at a location where the aetherwind was vertical, then there would be almost zero effect on the speed of elekticity, it would be slowed a little due to the elektons having a sidewind.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 11:02:35 am by aetherist »
 

Offline aetherist

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Go to your profile.  Buddies/Ignore List. Edit Ignore List. Add username.

Threads can be ignored by ticking the thread in your "view new replies|unread posts" list and clicking the ignore button.  They'll still show up in the plain forum sections, or search or whatever if you go looking, and can be clicked or removed in a similar location from your profile. :-+ Tim
Ignoring me or my threads is ok.
But i hope that i can then still comment/post on RJHayward's postings on other threads. I am learning lots & lots from his postings.

Can RJH block me from posting on his postings?
Can he block me from reading his postings?
Can i block RJH from reading my postings?
 

Online RJSV

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Do as you will.
But I just looked up the word:
   'Confrontational'.

...after reading local paper Police Report
 

Offline aetherist

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Do as you will.
But I just looked up the word:
   'Confrontational'.

...after reading local paper Police Report
ch for: What is the meaning of being confrontational?
What do you call a confrontational person?
Characterized by, or given to initiating hostile encounters. aggressive. bellicose. combative. hostile. Often avoids genuine argument by putting others on "ignore".
 

Online ejeffrey

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The aether need not be called the luminiferous aether -- the aether gives us everything we see & feel. It is a gravitational aether, it is an electric aether, it is a magnetic aether. It is simply the aether.

Yeah, so it's 42.
But I'm curious about what this "theory" brings to the table, apart from saying that it's everywhere and is everything.

I did some internet diving into this particular conspiracy theory.

It explains after the fact every microscopic experimental discrepancy, error, or drift with a quantity that can take on any magnitude and direction at any point in time and so while in principle it is testable (per the original Michelson morely experiment aka MMX, since all experiments have errors and uncertainty and there is no lower bound for the aether velocity at your location no experiment can be inconsistent with it.  It also claims without justification that you need to do the experiment in specific ways such as in vacuum which makes no difference but reduces the number of people who can practically do the experiment dramatically and those that could largely have better things to do.  More complex results such as the operation of GPS or particle accelerators are hand waved away as well explained by aether theory but without any actual quantitative theory that can predict any of them.
 
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Offline aetherist

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The aether need not be called the luminiferous aether -- the aether gives us everything we see & feel. It is a gravitational aether, it is an electric aether, it is a magnetic aether. It is simply the aether.
Yeah, so it's 42.
But I'm curious about what this "theory" brings to the table, apart from saying that it's everywhere and is everything.
I did some internet diving into this particular conspiracy theory.

It explains after the fact every microscopic experimental discrepancy, error, or drift with a quantity that can take on any magnitude and direction at any point in time and so while in principle it is testable (per the original Michelson morely experiment aka MMX, since all experiments have errors and uncertainty and there is no lower bound for the aether velocity at your location no experiment can be inconsistent with it. 
It also claims without justification that you need to do the experiment in specific ways such as in vacuum which makes no difference but reduces the number of people who can practically do the experiment dramatically and those that could largely have better things to do.
More complex results such as the operation of GPS or particle accelerators are hand waved away as well explained by aether theory but without any actual quantitative theory that can predict any of them.
It is true that a perfectly good MMX can get a null result, if the aetherwind is vertical at that location at that time, koz MMXs are usually done in the horizontal.
Likewise, at some locations on Earth (near the equator) the horizontal component of the aetherwind will have its full value, approx 500 km/s.

Prof Reg Cahill (Adelaide) was the first to publish the correct calibration for MMXs, & he showed that they had to be in gas mode, ie vacuum mode gave a null result (or very nearly null).

I am the world authority on some aspects of spurious signals & noise & error in MMXs. And i can set u straight on any such aspect if u want.

GPS proves that STR is wrong. I am not sure whether GPS supports aetherwind (i can't remember).
I don’t know of any arguments involving particle accelerators & aether or aetherwind.
 

Offline typoknigTopic starter

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If this is true then it just seems the videos are a bit over zealous with their insinuation that all energy is outside the wire.

The video is not insinuating. The energy that is transferred to the load IS outside the wires. If it were inside the wires, it would be dissipated by them.

Ah, a post about the subject of the thread... cool ;)

This response though seems to miss the head scratching aspect of my original question; if the "energy" is outside the wire why doesn't it affect us until we touch the bare wire?  I'm also assuming when you say "outside the wire" you mean really outside (i.e. outside the insulation) and not just on the outside of the wire (i.e. on its surface).
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Well like I said, it does, just you can't notice it.

Also that it's mostly outside you, as well as the wire.  A wavefront propagating through air, will mostly be reflected off the high dielectric constant of your skin.  To microwaves (we're talking ~ps scale risetimes here), you look like the Silver Surfer.  Or like a balloon of, well, mostly water. ;D  And what's left, that does penetrate, dissipates quickly, absorbed as heat -- no neuronal activation, there's many orders of magnitude not enough charge deposited to activate them.  The only thing that does, is either an intense enough beam to cause physical heating (active denial system for example), or an intense enough impulse that, as the charges slowly settle down, you do feel something (a static spark).

For wavefronts that change more slowly, the penetration depth is greater of course, but also your body is more blobby, fingers and hands becoming less distinct as the wavelength becomes longer than their dimensions.  (It takes ~THz to resolve fingerprints.)  Or, for many waves superimposed, the ratio of electric and magnetic fields can become proportionally farther out of whack, and this field strength need not come at any power cost, i.e. it is a reactive effect only.  At mains frequency for example, compared to a nanosecond wavefront, there's effectively billions of waves superimposed, most of them cancelling out, and that's why you don't feel anything.

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Offline TimFox

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Again, a human body can be "shocked" when current flows through it.
In a simple situation, the victim's hand touches a wire that has a substantial voltage with respect to ground, and the victim's body is "grounded" elsewhere, possibly by standing in a puddle of water.
The current that flows through the body then determines the severity of the shock:  a low current is unpleasant and can induce an involuntary muscle reaction, a higher current is lethal because it interferes with proper heart function.
For a given voltage, the current depends on the total impedance through the circuit.
At DC, with an insulated wire, the insulation of the wire should be extremely large with respect to the resistance through the body.
At 60 Hz AC, the capacitance through the insulation might be important.
At RF, the displacement current through the capacitance increases.
Homework assignment:  calculate the insulation impedance at DC and 60 Hz for a simplified model where the insulation is modeled as a coaxial annular cylinder about 10 cm long (approximate width of a hand), with typical dimensions on an AWG12 wire with PVC insulation.
For the body resistance, that depends on how wet the skin is, since the resistance of dry skin is much larger than the resistance through the wetter interior of the body (roughly, "normal" saline).
 

Offline madires

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The insulation protects you from closing a circuit (you are a resistor). At the same time there's an electromagnetic field which can impact you (you are an antenna or conductor). In most cases the field strength is too small to have any noticeable impact. But this changes with a very high field strength (frequency plays also a role). Or in other words, if the field strength is large enough you'll sense pain. Most countries defined limits for each field strength. For example, our limit for the electrical field strength at freqencies of 1-50 Hz is 5 kV/m.
 

Offline TimFox

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In the regulation of MRI, the relevant parameter is "SAR", which is the energy absorbed from the high-frequency magnetic field per kg of body mass.  This energy goes to heating the body tissue which, in extreme cases, can cause burns.
 

Online RJSV

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Thanks, timfox, RF can be invisible danger.
   
   I'm wanting to mention, recent a person posted some discussion about a DC Lamp. Uh, OK that could happen, in an RV (12 V automotive), or in uh, a TENT or something. But that is misleading / distraction as we generally are discussing AC transmission of energy.
That's why you get the TWO effects, basic physics.
One effect, the AC current, time varying,  causing field
 fluctuations surrounding the current flow (in wire) and other transmission directly inside the wire. Both will wax and wane, so you can always make the case that one or the other 'goes through zero volts point', on waveform (SINE if it's free of noise etc). OR, you can always say the magnetic field fluctuation goes through zero field strength, too, as it transitions to a (sinusoidal) negative half of waveform. All cyclic.
Yeah, so how, again, does bringing up DC relate, to a pair of sinusoidally vibrating field/ and current (??).
 

Online RJSV

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The 'other' faulty / misleading post on my mind right now, states "...it can't be transmitted through wires 'cause they will just 'disapate' it all, in internal resistance.".
   Uh, I ran the numbers, for that (sigh...), it's not that hard to multiply and comes to something like 10 ohms series cable transmission wire resistance added to a 240 ohm  load resistance for a 60 Watt bulb.
That's for a 100 foot length and MY numbers say that the wires have only 4 % while the LOAD at end of cable recieves fully 96 %.
   As the saying goes: Prove me wrong! Please, for the sake of the OP :
   "Publish Your Numbers" ! So we can examine, here.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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This response though seems to miss the head scratching aspect of my original question; if the "energy" is outside the wire why doesn't it affect us until we touch the bare wire?

It's because you too are a conductor and the electric field inside you must be zero, forcing the energy to circle around you.

When you touch the wire you provide a way for the electric field be in parallel with your skin, effectively pointing the flow of energy into your body, in which case you get barbecued.

Quote
I'm also assuming when you say "outside the wire" you mean really outside (i.e. outside the insulation) and not just on the outside of the wire (i.e. on its surface).

Nope. Energy flows through the insulation too, since it can admit the presence of an electric and a magnetic field.
 
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