Author Topic: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?  (Read 3854 times)

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Offline axemasterTopic starter

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Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« on: April 24, 2022, 02:33:40 pm »
Hi guys, I am an American student at a university in the USA. I have been using PCBway and other Chinese fabs such as JLC for several years with no issues.

On Friday I was scheduled to receive a 8-layer PCB from PCBway. However, the Export Control Officer for my university seized the package from the loading dock and is refusing to deliver it to me. He claims that it is illegal for us to use Chinese fabricators, and if the package was delivered to me, it would be "a violation that would have to be reported to the federal government".

According to him, by sending my gerber files to the Chinese fab, I exported the files illegally.

I asked him if it illegal for private citizens to order PCBs from Chinese fabs, and he said yes.

Please note, I do not work with weapons or secret technology of any kind. To my knowledge, I have never signed any document compelling secrecy or anything like that.

Basically everyone I know uses Chinese fabs - I asked around the university over the past 2 days and nobody has heard of the restrictions this guy was talking about. Is there any merit to what he is saying? This incident has been stunning and alarming to me.
 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2022, 03:01:34 pm »
Without much more information and probably statement from the person making those claims explaining the basis for them, I wouldn't comment.  He may be a knucklehead or perhaps what you are working on is subject to export control restrictions for some reason.  What may have happened is that your university is taking an overly broad view of export control regulations in order to 'be safe'.   However, I would struggle to understand how any purported violation would be deemed to have occurred only upon the delivery of the PCB to you.  If uploading your files violated some export control restriction, I would think the violation has already occurred and is reportable now. 

In any case, this is all well above your pay grade so to speak.  Your education will now move into the area of bureaucracy, institutional interpersonal relations and regulatory interpretation.  What may have happened is that your university is taking an overly broad view of export control regulations in order to 'be safe'. 
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Online wraper

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2022, 03:08:21 pm »
Unless your design falls under ITAR, I see no reason why it would be illegal. I guess you could report him to police for illegally posessing your property. Even if he was right, I don't see how ITAR violation by exporting your files to China would result in seizing imported PCBs.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 03:13:22 pm by wraper »
 
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Online coppice

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2022, 03:09:47 pm »
If sending Gerber files for a PCB to a Chinese fab were illegal, most of the US electronics industry would shut down until alternative suppliers develop. US export regulations have very specific rules about what technology can be exported (exporting design information, rather than stuff, would be considered a technology export). Gerbers would have to be implementing something very original to fall foul of those rules.
 
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Offline BrokenYugo

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2022, 03:16:09 pm »
I'd suggest complaining upward. If you're right, it isn't your job to tell them to pull their head out of their ass. In the highly unlikely event you're wrong it's already documented with your name on it, no harm making a good faith effort to rectify the situation.
 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2022, 04:03:13 pm »
Unless your design falls under ITAR, I see no reason why it would be illegal.

The specific design doesn't necessarily need to be export restricted, it could simply fall under overly broad institutional or corporate rules intended to prioritize ease of proving compliance over getting things done.  Without knowing a lot more about the design, the program and the institution it might be hard to figure out where it comes from and whose rule it is.  Decades ago when I was in school and working in a materials science lab, they had a large grant from the US Navy.  So lots of things got "charged to the Navy".  I'm sure that Navy grant came with all sorts of strings attached and perhaps it would have been a violation of those rules to export any part of anything funded by the program.  If there is an audit or (shudder) an 'investigation', someone may ask for a list of any information or designs provided to overseas parties.  The export control officer may have the goal of being able to answer that question by saying 'there aren't any'.  A blanket policy is easier to implement and defend.
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Online mawyatt

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2022, 04:28:56 pm »
Think you may have an over Zealous Security Officer. We had such awhile back that refused to allow some university colleagues into meeting because they were not US citizens, and nothing we were discussing was classified nor even proprietary, she used ITAR as the reason. I really ticked her off during another meeting when a bunch of us cleared folks were having a classified discussion and I said we had an ITAR violation because some were using pens from China including her!! She soon left our group, thank goodness!!

Another fun (well no so fun for the student) story was a grad student that had developed a tiny new control moment gyro for use on a Cube Sat (very small satellite). Since he used the word "Satellite" during his presentation, his gyro came under ITAR control, and since he wasn't a US citizen all his files and such were confiscated and he wasn't allowed to access his own files, hardware and design |O

We were warned about using Satellite in any presentations for our stuff going into space, so this became a "Small Test Platform", or STP!!

Best,
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Online tszaboo

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2022, 05:52:13 pm »
We call this Janitor or Doorman syndrome. You take a person who has a completely empty and useless life, and you give them a little bit of responsibility of a process -which can be as insignificant as screening for criminals entering a building- and you end up with these sort of people. These are the people who don't contribute anything to the human condition, other than suffering, unnecessary paperwork, and annoyance.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2022, 06:46:46 pm »
Try to get a written (e-mail) explanation of what university/federal regulations were violated if you really want to protest it over his head. Trying to make a big deal about it with just some nebulous he said she said bullshit is going to backfire, exhaust your options with him fully first and get your ducks in a row.

That said, there is an obvious alternative. Write it off as a loss and next time order via a private address. Assuming it's really a private project, if not just go to your professor and tell him you need more money and why.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 06:49:47 pm by Marco »
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2022, 06:52:56 pm »
have the professor place the order for the boards. he's paid by the university. his problem. not the students problem.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2022, 07:54:19 pm »
I asked him if it illegal for private citizens to order PCBs from Chinese fabs, and he said yes.

Oh really.

While some university may have a specific policy regarding this, I can't see how it could generally apply to private citizens.
But I may not be aware of the latest sanctions the US imposed on China.

Though if that were the case, no body in the US could ever get anything fabricated in China anymore, and I think we would have noticed.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2022, 07:59:03 pm »
I asked him if it illegal for private citizens to order PCBs from Chinese fabs, and he said yes.

Oh really.

While some university may have a specific policy regarding this, I can't see how it could generally apply to private citizens.  ITAR, I think. But we santioned Russia, not China. Only a few items are santioned for China. Maybe supercomputers?

But I may not be aware of the latest sanctions the US imposed on China.

Me neither.. But watch out for FUD. Thats the worst.

Though if that were the case, no body in the US could ever get anything fabricated in China anymore, and I think we would have noticed.

Lots of US businesses would go out of business without various inexpensive Chinese products and services..
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Offline cdev

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2022, 08:05:25 pm »
A chip fab makes semiconductors.. A PCB house is different.. they just put semiconductors on PCBs.. You provide the parts..

What university is involved, just curious? Many universities probably have various electronics projects made for them. Some universities probably have lots of boards made for them.

Some universities are probably particularly well informed. others not.If what he said was/is true, the situation may be changing raapidly with regard to Russia,l especially.

He would know where these rules were.. and why that was the case. (Up to the minute rulemaking)

Or it may be bullshit.

If you really wanted to know, wouldnt there be some rule he could cite? Ask him. The default should be to provide the exact data.. to you of whats going on.


Maybe Chinese businesses have been sanctioned more and there are new rules. I wouldn't dismiss this out of hand, just ask for the specific rules being violated/ Could you please post that info here, too.

Also, any other info you can dredge up..

Without much more information and probably statement from the person making those claims explaining the basis for them, I wouldn't comment.  He may be a knucklehead or perhaps what you are working on is subject to export control restrictions for some reason.  What may have happened is that your university is taking an overly broad view of export control regulations in order to 'be safe'.   However, I would struggle to understand how any purported violation would be deemed to have occurred only upon the delivery of the PCB to you.  If uploading your files violated some export control restriction, I would think the violation has already occurred and is reportable now. 

In any case, this is all well above your pay grade so to speak.  Your education will now move into the area of bureaucracy, institutional interpersonal relations and regulatory interpretation.  What may have happened is that your university is taking an overly broad view of export control regulations in order to 'be safe'.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 08:14:20 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2022, 08:16:03 pm »
Your department head might know more?


I'd suggest complaining upward. If you're right, it isn't your job to tell them to pull their head out of their ass. In the highly unlikely event you're wrong it's already documented with your name on it, no harm making a good faith effort to rectify the situation.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2022, 08:25:07 pm »
The fact is, lots of people who work for the government are flabbergasted by the situation with Russia and dont know what to do and its all changing fast..Not China, Russia. As far as I know. And, it really sucks for them because they have been working with Russian partners on the space program for a long time.. This guy may be right? Better safe than sorry!

Try to get a written (e-mail) explanation of what university/federal regulations were violated if you really want to protest it over his head. Trying to make a big deal about it with just some nebulous he said she said bullshit is going to backfire, exhaust your options with him fully first and get your ducks in a row.

That said, there is an obvious alternative. Write it off as a loss and next time order via a private address. Assuming it's really a private project, if not just go to your professor and tell him you need more money and why.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline axemasterTopic starter

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2022, 08:40:14 pm »
Thanks for the replies!

I will continue to gather more info over the next 1-2 days. Sorry but I'm not going to reveal what university it is, I don't want to get myself in unnecessary trouble...

I have taken a look at the EAR "Commerce Control List" Category 3 (electronics). It looks like PCBs are restricted only when used in:
- missiles
- "Printed circuit boards and populated circuit cards with a layout that is “specially designed” for defense articles"
- PCBs designed for military electronics/vehicles/aircraft
 

Offline bson

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2022, 09:01:24 pm »
I was just going to suggest that it's a use restriction, that Chinese parts or subassemblies can't be used in certain sensitive or classified projects.  Once a department is involved in a sensitive project barriers are erected.

I doubt PCBWay or JLCPCB are affected by sanctions.  If they were, to begin with it, would be difficult to pay them.  Sanctions against Chinese nationals tend to be associated with involvement in the concentration camps and the Uighur genocide.  And there are still sanctions in effect against those responsible for the Tiananmen Square massacre.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 09:08:32 pm by bson »
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2022, 09:35:11 pm »
Bonjour, most  interesting from a legal and customs standpoint !

Suggest that you

1/ ask university official for the US code that is cited.

2/ notice that most electronics can be considered "dual use" and potentially military.

3/ anything sent to a Chinese firm, even PCB, gerbers, for fab can be examined and appropriated by the Chinese  government, according to Chinese law.

4/  freight incoming to USA is cleared at POE by US CBP, USPS, etc
Generally if it was delivered, it has already cleared customs.

5/ in theory, your university has illegally intercepted your package, recieved vai US post or international freight. It has  committed an offense.

6 / get a PO BOX or personal adresse and don't use your University adresse.

bon courage ,

Jon
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 10:57:28 pm by jonpaul »
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Offline vav

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2022, 10:15:00 pm »
If you have someone in a country that is not subject to sanctions, order Chinese goods through them.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2022, 10:21:18 pm »
I will continue to gather more info over the next 1-2 days.

Yep. Keep us posted too if you can, that's interesting.

I have taken a look at the EAR "Commerce Control List" Category 3 (electronics). It looks like PCBs are restricted only when used in:
- missiles
- "Printed circuit boards and populated circuit cards with a layout that is “specially designed” for defense articles"
- PCBs designed for military electronics/vehicles/aircraft

That's what I knew as well. So, unless there are some new measures that we are not aware of yet...

But possibly any work done at your university is by default considered in the "defense" category. That's something you'll have to figure out.

Or again, maybe this is just some internal uni policy that they wanna enforce, and they'll make you think that it's a legal requirement.
 

Online edpalmer42

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2022, 10:27:43 pm »
In order to get to the twit this package was first cleared by U.S. Customs & Border Protection.  I think they know the laws better than some university droid.  You could give them a call and see what they say.  If you have a tracking number, they might be able to look that up and tell you what they decided on that package.

Ultimately, you have two choices.  Shrug and walk away or phone the police and charge him with theft.
 
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Offline pigrew

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2022, 10:36:26 pm »
I've not experienced any issues when ordering PCBs lately (other than the purchasing department grumbling about overseas payments), and I have not heard anything about new policy changes.

I can imagine if the PCB had mm-wave circuits or was designed for aerospace, that the layout itself could be ITAR restricted.

I've also heard of universities black-listing some of the inexpensive Chinese PCB fabs, due to poor quality control.

It sounds like in this case, it's "PCBs are bad" with little nuance.

I would suggest having an faculty/staff member investigate. A lot of the time, business & receiving staff won't give (much) help to students.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2022, 10:47:45 pm »
I don't understand how someone who works in a loading dock has any rights to your personal mail. It sounds bizarre to me.
 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2022, 10:56:49 pm »
However, the Export Control Officer for my university seized the package from the loading dock and is refusing to deliver it to me. He claims that it is illegal for us to use Chinese fabricators, and if the package was delivered to me, it would be "a violation that would have to be reported to the federal government".
You might want to start by pointing out to him (and his boss) that it is an import, not an export, and that with his job title he ought to know the difference.

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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Illegal to order from Chinese fabs, export control?
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2022, 11:59:45 pm »
However, the Export Control Officer for my university seized the package from the loading dock and is refusing to deliver it to me. He claims that it is illegal for us to use Chinese fabricators, and if the package was delivered to me, it would be "a violation that would have to be reported to the federal government".
You might want to start by pointing out to him (and his boss) that it is an import, not an export, and that with his job title he ought to know the difference.
That is quite a bizarre situation. Sorry you got entangled.

As above (as well as mentioned by edpalmer42 and jonpaul), the package was already cleared to enter the US border by the CBP and the export of files is a separate matter. The seizure of the package in the university premises exposes them to theft investigation - if it is via USPS, that would have one more layer as it has federal scope.

Oh well... Let's hope that your advisor or someone else with actual brains solves this issue without hassle.
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