Poll

How big is still tolerable for you

traffic smaller than 100 KB / image
2 (1.3%)
traffic smaller than 200 KB / image
7 (4.5%)
traffic smaller than 500 KB / image
19 (12.1%)
traffic smaller than 1 MB / image
12 (7.6%)
traffic smaller than 2 MB / image
2 (1.3%)
I don't care about the traffic
36 (22.9%)
resolution smaller than 0.5 MP (960x540, qHD)
5 (3.2%)
resolution smaller than 1 MP (1280x720, HD)
16 (10.2%)
resolution smaller than 2 MP (1920x1080, Full HD)
14 (8.9%)
resolution smaller than 8 MP (3840x2160, 4K UHD)
4 (2.5%)
I don't care about the resolution
40 (25.5%)

Total Members Voted: 89

Author Topic: NEW FORUM UPLOAD FEATURES  (Read 19645 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2019, 09:22:44 am »
Most people, simply give it no thought whatsoever, have no clue that this is even a thing to argue about -- they have no need or care of the details, they just want to get an image from here to there.
Indeed. And even for those who do care it is just too much work to cut/edit every picture.
Quote
But, speaking of laziness, it may well be more effort to introduce such a feature to the forum software, than it is to provide for the server and connections, and if most users aren't complaining about load times or poorly formatted images who cares, right?
Hence my suggestion to use a service like Flickr which can serve images in many sizes. Perhaps Dave & Gnif can setup something similar on the EEVblog server.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 10:51:59 am by nctnico »
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Offline MarkF

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2019, 03:34:56 pm »
But, speaking of laziness, it may well be more effort to introduce such a feature to the forum software, than it is to provide for the server and connections, and if most users aren't complaining about load times or poorly formatted images who cares, right?
Hence my suggestion to use a service like Flickr which can serve images in many sizes. Perhaps Dave & Gnif can setup something similar on the EEVblog server.

Until the service purges all its old pictures.
Then you have a bunch of useless discussions.  Which, we already have!  Missing circuits, etc.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2019, 04:07:48 pm »
Isn't it possible to have a basic image editor in the browser? Just the basic crop, scale, and rotate would be enough for the majority who would use it, while those more advanced would probably already be using something like GIMP.
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Offline Dubbie

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2019, 06:10:39 pm »
To users with modern 4K screens, 640 or 800 pix images are practically thumbnails. I think things are fine as they are.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2019, 06:33:14 pm »
To users with modern 4K screens, 640 or 800 pix images are practically thumbnails. I think things are fine as they are.
Well you can easily zoom in, which doesn't cost any extra bandwidth.
 

Offline MarkF

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2019, 07:59:09 pm »
It's not the resolution that's the problem.  It is the file size.

Do not post 8 MB pictures!  Period.   :box:

Some of us do not have the luxury of a Gigabyte internet connection.

At 3 Mbps download speed, these 4K pictures take FOREVER to download.
Surely there is a middle ground here.

The only reason to post pictures that big would be a schematic and if it is in a PNG format it will not have artifacts and the lossless compression will reduce the file size.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2019, 09:38:15 pm »
To users with modern 4K screens, 640 or 800 pix images are practically thumbnails. I think things are fine as they are.
That would be enough to inform the user if it's worth opening the full resolution image, unlike the current situation where the thumbnails are only useful to give a rough idea what it might be about.
It's not the resolution that's the problem.  It is the file size.

Do not post 8 MB pictures!  Period.   :box:

Some of us do not have the luxury of a Gigabyte internet connection.

At 3 Mbps download speed, these 4K pictures take FOREVER to download.
Surely there is a middle ground here.

The only reason to post pictures that big would be a schematic and if it is in a PNG format it will not have artifacts and the lossless compression will reduce the file size.
Hence the idea of making the thumbnails something like 640x480 or 800x600, maybe even as high as 720p. Then the users with limited bandwidth would only open the full resolution images if they think there's something worth looking at in detail.

At this point, I would say that 1080p would satisfy most users in most situations, and still look quite good under 1MB per image. An exception would be images of large boards that need more detail.
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Offline MarkF

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2019, 10:19:39 pm »

Hence the idea of making the thumbnails something like 640x480 or 800x600, maybe even as high as 720p. Then the users with limited bandwidth would only open the full resolution images if they think there's something worth looking at in detail.

At this point, I would say that 1080p would satisfy most users in most situations, and still look quite good under 1MB per image. An exception would be images of large boards that need more detail.

Thumbnails that large (even at 640x480) are full size pictures on a 1080p display (i.e. a laptop)!

Thumbnails should not be bigger than 200x150
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2019, 11:11:32 pm »
If the thumbnails don't show much detail, the full image would almost always be opened anyways, saving little bandwidth. I suspect some value around what I gave would be the compromise point that actually would significantly reduce the need to open the full image.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2019, 01:29:09 am »
To users with modern 4K screens, 640 or 800 pix images are practically thumbnails. I think things are fine as they are.
I doubt that will be the case because those people likely have a zoom factor to scale everything up. Otherwise nothing would be readable in any application.
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2019, 02:36:19 am »
If it was my choice, the ideal solution would be an SMF plugin that enabled inline images to be thumbnailed in the same fashion as image attachments. That way they can be positioned properly within the body of the post, but not incur extra bandwidth until clicked upon. I hunted around for such a thing a few weeks ago, but didn't find one.

I once visited a thread here using my phone and accessing the mobile version of the forum. Although it was fast since I was on LTE, it was over 50MB(!) for one page due to all the inline images. :o
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 05:07:22 am by bitseeker »
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2019, 02:39:49 am »
I doubt that will be the case because those people likely have a zoom factor to scale everything up. Otherwise nothing would be readable in any application.
On the desktop, 4K monitors are commonly available to 40" or bigger (mine is 50"), so similar dot pitch to 20" class 1080p monitors.
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2019, 04:07:59 am »
If it was my choice, the ideal solution would be an SMF plugin that enabled inline images to by thumbnailed in the same fashion as image attachments. That way they can be positioned properly within the body of the post, but not incur extra bandwidth until clicked upon. I hunted around for such a thing a few weeks ago, but didn't find one.

If this feature exist, it will be perfect.  :-+

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2019, 08:35:33 am »
Even though the number of openings of thumbnails is very low compared with a page's number of views, to show more detail I think thumbnails should be 1600x1200 pixels and limited to just 5 or 6MB each. If the reader really needs to see the full res sized image they can always just click on the 1600x1200 thumbnail. :palm:
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2019, 09:01:21 am »
To users with modern 4K screens, 640 or 800 pix images are practically thumbnails. I think things are fine as they are.
That would be enough to inform the user if it's worth opening the full resolution image, unlike the current situation where the thumbnails are only useful to give a rough idea what it might be about.
Well that's the idea behind thumbnails: to give a rough idea of what the image is.

Quote
Hence the idea of making the thumbnails something like 640x480 or 800x600, maybe even as high as 720p. Then the users with limited bandwidth would only open the full resolution images if they think there's something worth looking at in detail.

At this point, I would say that 1080p would satisfy most users in most situations, and still look quite good under 1MB per image. An exception would be images of large boards that need more detail.
As I said before, the forum software saves thumbnails in 32-bit colour PNG, which would waste a huge amount of bandwidth, at that resolution. Unfortunately the software isn't smart enough to do as you suggested in your other post.

This has been discussed before. The thumbnails were originally larger, than they are now, 500x500, but were reduced to 100x100, after it was realised how much bandwidth was being wasted:  300kB PNG thumbnails for 52kB JPEGS!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/news/forum-picture-efficiency/msg46420/#msg46420
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 09:11:20 am by Zero999 »
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2019, 10:11:46 am »
I would love to pay some $$ more (even on a year base) to be able to upload here more data.

Quote
Restrictions: 25 per post, maximum total size 5000KB, maximum individual size 5000KB

For paying supporters it should be at least:

Quote
Restrictions: 25 per post, maximum total size 250MB, maximum individual size 10MB

Slow internet connections users they will have problems not only at the EEVblog.
We are in 2019.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2019, 10:28:54 am »
I would love to pay some $$ more (even on a year base) to be able to upload here more data.

Quote
Restrictions: 25 per post, maximum total size 5000KB, maximum individual size 5000KB

For paying supporters it should be at least:

Quote
Restrictions: 25 per post, maximum total size 250MB, maximum individual size 10MB

Slow internet connections users they will have problems not only at the EEVblog.
We are in 2019.

250MB per post is pretty big.
I'd have to check with gnif on the server implications of this. Not sure of the current drive size or options.
 

Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2019, 10:47:00 am »
Slow internet connections users they will have problems not only at the EEVblog.
We are in 2019.

Strongly disagree, 250MB per post is outrageous, because it will make a crappy forum for everybody else except a few that can afford to waste bandwidth and resources in general.

I'm not saying that for my own interest.  My $10/month unlimited traffic 1Gbps fiber optic can download a DVD faster than a SSD can store it (800Mbs sustained download and 200Mbps sustained upload is very common here, Romania is one of the best in the world for its high speed internet at affordable prices), but why would I want to see a 10MB jpeg?

I tried various compression rates and resolution, as suggested by the poll's results.  1024 pixels wide and 50-100KB for one photo is more than enough even for a 32inch/4K monitor and not so sharp eyes, so why serving a photo with a size 100 times bigger than necessary?

Offline Zucca

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2019, 11:30:43 am »
Strongly disagree, 10MB jpeg

In your case I would turn off the image on the browser.
10Mb jpeg is stupid of course. I am talking about real data.

The EEVBlog is one if the finest place for EE Hack, we need to be able to pull and store our data (.zip, .7z.,  ISO images) here.
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Online RoGeorgeTopic starter

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2019, 12:12:27 pm »
Turning off the images will be a little too extreme.
Instead, I've just added my own poll to the ignored subjects list.  ;D

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2019, 12:20:11 pm »
Is the idea to turn EEVblog into a photobucket, make it unusable for 50%+ of the users, or put Dave out of business, or all of them.

Rather than increasing the attachments size to 500MB for those users that can't be bothered cropping and compressing their images for the 1000s of viewers, I'd rather vote for those users to be banned. :)

Its 2019, anyone who hasn't got a 40" laptop on their knee and an 120" monitor on their desk is just not with it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 12:26:14 pm by StillTrying »
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2019, 12:40:53 pm »
As I said before, the forum software saves thumbnails in 32-bit colour PNG, which would waste a huge amount of bandwidth, at that resolution. Unfortunately the software isn't smart enough to do as you suggested in your other post.

This has been discussed before. The thumbnails were originally larger, than they are now, 500x500, but were reduced to 100x100, after it was realised how much bandwidth was being wasted:  300kB PNG thumbnails for 52kB JPEGS!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/news/forum-picture-efficiency/msg46420/#msg46420
How difficult would it be to have all thumbnails be JPEG, or use JPEG if the source is JPEG and PNG if the source is PNG?
The EEVBlog is one if the finest place for EE Hack, we need to be able to pull and store our data (.zip, .7z.,  ISO images) here.
P2P would be better for that, such as Bittorrent or IPFS.
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Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2019, 06:41:29 pm »
Slow internet connections users they will have problems not only at the EEVblog.
We are in 2019.

Slow internet connection users do not have problems because most sites are considerate enough to offer images and videos at various resolutions. I can watch whatever of Dave's videos on Youtube from 144p to 1080p.

So, if the forum permit paying users to upload ridiculous 10MB images, then it must provide some automatic resizing to a reasonable resolution so as to not alienate most users.
 

Online ledtester

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2019, 06:46:14 pm »
What about making it a user preference? It would mean tweaking the forum code, but I'm sure it can't be that difficult.

And while we're talking about images, I'd like to have the forum auto-remove EXIF info from jpegs. I'm not worried so much about the typical eevblog forum user, it's just that the photos are available to the general internet and all of the personal info harvesters out there.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 06:49:34 pm by ledtester »
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: Images embedded between text - how big is still tolerable for you?
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2019, 06:19:33 pm »
I'm surprised so many don't care about the resolution and MB size.

This original 3.1MB 5102x6599 image expands to 100MB in memory and makes my FF crawl along.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/help-diagnosing-this-dual-555-timer-circuit-please-(pwm-blinking)/msg2525259/#msg2525259

I can get it down to 31kB and 1MB in memory, which is nearly nothing in comparison!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 06:22:17 pm by StillTrying »
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 


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