Author Topic: Impact of US government spending impasse  (Read 9547 times)

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Offline cdev

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #125 on: January 14, 2019, 04:11:06 am »
Until the various major deceptions that rule our country and planet are exposed, we wont have good government. We can't, because it can't govern. Its trapped into a inequality increasing model that only helps millionaires and billionaires and pretends that is the only thing that needs to be fair, the class struggle between them. By design.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #126 on: January 14, 2019, 04:19:08 am »
The cause of drug addiction is loss of hope and despair. Young people are running into a economic wall thats preventing them from ever having a life like they are constantly told they need to have. A family, etc. A stable life. But the system is now eating its own. Its not going to give them that good life, its skimming off the riches and they are losing hope.

We need to stand up for them more. We need to have a future for this country. People need to be able to get a decent education, even if jobs wont be there for them. So it needs to be free, but GATS blocks that. It also blocks us from fixing our health care system. And it sets us up for a future economic disaster which will leave millions of people homeless, other people likely living in their homes, or maybe them sitting empty, some foreign oligarchs investment. Their 'escape hatch'.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #127 on: January 14, 2019, 06:37:53 am »
Mexico isn't to blame for opioid deaths. Those are a massive problem, but are the result of a number of failed policies within the US. Ending the "war on drugs" and implementing more effective measures would make a much bigger difference than any wall could every do.

Even if they were, it's surprising that they would bring this up, given that the republicans tend to be very much into the personal responsibility thing. It's one of a small handful of things I lean that direction on, using drugs is a personal choice. I never had any trouble not using hard drugs. Yes there is an issue with people being over-prescribed and getting addicted, but one can't blame Mexico for that either.

Heck I even agree that to some extent illegal immigration is a problem, but a wall is not going to have any significant effect. Most illegal aliens in the US enter legally. Very few are sneaking across the border.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #128 on: January 14, 2019, 06:43:14 am »
I too will be glad to see Trump gone.  I didn't vote for him or his primary opponent in 2016.  Unfortunately I don't see 2020 as bringing a new golden age in politics.  We don't seem to be oversupplied with good thoughtful leaders who look beyond victory for their own team.

Well you pretty much did vote for him then, because the way the system is set up there are two viable candidates in the final race. Voting for anyone else is at best just throwing away your vote. I don't see any real improvements anytime in the foreseeable future either though, people have been getting increasingly polarized and the internet allows like minded folks to exist in gigantic echo chambers leading them to believe they are the vast majority no matter what their beliefs and that anyone who disagrees with them is an outlying minority they don't need to compromise with or listen to their point of view.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #129 on: January 14, 2019, 06:50:48 am »
... because he has the attention span of a goldfish and the intellectual capacity of a gnat.

I agree, but really, and experts have chimed in on this, really what he wants is constant attention - like a 5 year old. He's a baby that needs constant attention and can never take any criticism.  :( He could care less about what he is fighting for, unless it gets solved. Then it's back to something else that garners more attention to himself.

Experts? Have any of them actually spent significant time with him? If not they're just making shit up.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #130 on: January 14, 2019, 07:01:29 am »
Experts? Have any of them actually spent significant time with him? If not they're just making shit up.

You don't have to physically spend time with someone to get a good picture of their personality, especially when it's someone who is out there front and center in public. Mental health diagnosis is not an exact science anyway, you can't do a blood test to find out if someone has narcissistic personality disorder or even something like schizophrenia, but if they exhibit enough of the symptoms it's not hard for someone who is qualified on the matter to make a diagnosis.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #131 on: January 14, 2019, 07:04:08 am »
... because he has the attention span of a goldfish and the intellectual capacity of a gnat.

I agree, but really, and experts have chimed in on this, really what he wants is constant attention - like a 5 year old. He's a baby that needs constant attention and can never take any criticism.  :( He could care less about what he is fighting for, unless it gets solved. Then it's back to something else that garners more attention to himself.

Experts? Have any of them actually spent significant time with him? If not they're just making shit up.

There is so many people along the way burnt cast off or just pissed off by the Egomaniac.This one popped into my YouTube feed this afternoon, coauthor of a book with him and an Ex Executive of his. Sorry but your current President is proving George Jnr was a Statesman and Genius  :o
https://youtu.be/ZOpMrOsK1BA
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Online maginnovision

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2019, 07:08:11 am »
Experts? Have any of them actually spent significant time with him? If not they're just making shit up.

You don't have to physically spend time with someone to get a good picture of their personality, especially when it's someone who is out there front and center in public. Mental health diagnosis is not an exact science anyway, you can't do a blood test to find out if someone has narcissistic personality disorder or even something like schizophrenia, but if they exhibit enough of the symptoms it's not hard for someone who is qualified on the matter to make a diagnosis.

So you think someone can accurately diagnose a personality purely based on the time they watch them on TV? I'm pretty sure no honest objectively focused person would agree with that.
 
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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2019, 12:11:01 pm »
Curious are you are republican?

Nope. More of a mix between a constitutional conservative and libertarian. I refer to myself as a Jeffersonian Democrat, and I probably identify more politically with the "blue dog democrats" of yesteryear - socially liberal but fiscally conservative.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #134 on: January 14, 2019, 01:07:02 pm »
It amazes me how people who don't live in this country are so certain about what is happening here. 

No one has mentioned the opioid deaths occurring here in the US due to the flood of drugs coming across the border.  90% come through Mexico.
Did it ever occur to you that a problem may be more easy to spot while looking at it from the outside? Without any prejudice... Drug trafficing from Mexico has been happening since the 70's. It is not a new problem. The solution is very simple: develop Mexico. But that is not 'the American way'. You rather keep pumping water away than to help the neighbours fix the leaking pipe.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #135 on: January 14, 2019, 01:27:57 pm »
The solution is very simple: develop Mexico. But that is not 'the American way'. You rather keep pumping water away than to help the neighbours fix the leaking pipe.

The ruling class in America is not interested in developing Mexico. Doing so would reduce the flow of cheap, unskilled labor they use to clean their houses and landscape their yards.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #136 on: January 14, 2019, 01:35:00 pm »
Did it ever occur to you that a problem may be more easy to spot while looking at it from the outside? Without any prejudice... Drug trafficing from Mexico has been happening since the 70's. It is not a new problem. The solution is very simple: develop Mexico. But that is not 'the American way'. You rather keep pumping water away than to help the neighbours fix the leaking pipe.
The problem is the thriving US drug market. Without demand there won't be a supply. Failing US policies create a huge market. There also won't be bloody turf wars fought with a plentiful supply of US arms on the Mexican side. Mexico is in the sorry state it is due to US influence. There's a reason it's worst near the border. Large profits and weapons conveniently available nearby create a perfect storm. If I thought walls would ever be effective, I'd say Mexico could use one.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #137 on: January 14, 2019, 01:38:03 pm »
Experts? Have any of them actually spent significant time with him? If not they're just making shit up.

Uh yea - past employees who know how stupid he is.  :-DD
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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #138 on: January 14, 2019, 01:47:54 pm »
Uh yea - past employees who know how stupid he is.  :-DD

Stupid guy who took a million dollars and transformed it into a multi-billion-dollar empire.

Yup... pretty stupid.

Hope all my kids are that dumb.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #139 on: January 14, 2019, 01:52:54 pm »
Uh yea - past employees who know how stupid he is.  :-DD
Stupid guy who took a million dollars and transformed it into a multi-billion-dollar empire.
He didn't do that. He inherited everything from his father. And Trump did very poor with his investments. Forbes has a graph somewhere with how much wealth rich people gained over the past 27 years. Trump did way worse than the stock exchange! He got an interest rate of around 1.25% over that period (corrected for inflation). The stock exchange is around 3% (including the severe crashes we have seen in the recent 15 years).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 01:55:37 pm by nctnico »
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Online xrunner

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #140 on: January 14, 2019, 01:58:57 pm »
Hope all my kids are that dumb.

You don't have to be smart to do that. You just hire people to manage your money and businesses. They will steer you if you let them. He inherited his initial fortune so he didn't earn that. But he has muddled in good advice and had bankruptcies. Doesn't change the fact he's a stupid ignorant narcissistic unread moron.  :)
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Online nctnico

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #141 on: January 14, 2019, 02:04:02 pm »
The solution is very simple: develop Mexico. But that is not 'the American way'. You rather keep pumping water away than to help the neighbours fix the leaking pipe.

The ruling class in America is not interested in developing Mexico. Doing so would reduce the flow of cheap, unskilled labor they use to clean their houses and landscape their yards.
Short term yes, but it would also create a market for American products. The US helped to develop Europe after WWII (Marshal plan). This has resulted in massive long term paybacks for the US.
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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #142 on: January 14, 2019, 02:13:47 pm »
He didn't do that. He inherited everything from his father.

So, it's your assertion Trump's father built Trump's empire and Trump just inherited everything from his father?

ummm.. yeah, okay, you keep believing that.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #143 on: January 14, 2019, 02:17:08 pm »
I think most politicians have NPD, that is almost a given with them. These days, both parties are ruled by NPDs. Which means they are both really dishonest.

The clue to what's really going on lies in this underlying agenda they all have, which isn't obvious to most because it's been concealed, as its the agenda of the very rich and is against the best interests of most of us.

It has multiple layers, like an onion, the face it shows to the people on each layer is different to the face it shows to those on the ones above and below it. Each layer has a cover story and a real story.

Other groups are similar. A similar scheme is occurring in other nations, notably the so called "Global South" nations which are also rules solely by their wealthy, like here.

The only countries that retain a basic level of democratic civil society are ones where the government's agenda in areas like trade attempts to keep the negotiating goals of its trade agreements and their commitments in sync with the aspirations and expectations of their people and not elsewhere. Maybe the Nordic countries ? Europe may be as bad as we are here. At times New Zealand has been a lot more independent, now, honestly I don't know. They have a good organization there that helps inform people there of what the problems are. So does Canada.

Experts? Have any of them actually spent significant time with him? If not they're just making shit up.

You don't have to physically spend time with someone to get a good picture of their personality, especially when it's someone who is out there front and center in public. Mental health diagnosis is not an exact science anyway, you can't do a blood test to find out if someone has narcissistic personality disorder or even something like schizophrenia, but if they exhibit enough of the symptoms it's not hard for someone who is qualified on the matter to make a diagnosis.

So you think someone can accurately diagnose a personality purely based on the time they watch them on TV? I'm pretty sure no honest objectively focused person would agree with that.

Trump isnt schizophrenic. Also, and this is hard to explain, he inherited a situation where a great many of the US's trade commitments directly contradict what the American people expected both parties to do when they won. Both parties real goals are much more similar than the oligarchs who run the country tell us, and frankly, I think they will cause another much larger economic disaster if they somehow manage to implement that agenda. But, I think that is what they want.

I think Trump's external stance in a number of areas is fake. The clue to what is really going on can be found in the WTO and in the desires on the part of oligarchs everywhere to lower wages and increase profits. The trading partners want shock therapy for the US, and the politicians want plausible deniability/maintenance of the false illusion that they work for us.

Since the trade agreements tie their hands, the Democrats cant fulfill any of the things liberal Dems promise, none of them. They can only pretend to oppose the inexorable ratchet of further deregulation, each click of which locks in due to the FTAs.

Cutbacks in education and domestic hiring must be matched by increases in subcontracting and outsourcing and hiring across borders, of high skill workers, but at low pay, that is meant to expand and become the replacement for education.

There I am not sure of Trump's intentions, but certainly don't think he should be taken at face value, either.

The general consensus about trade in services in the trade agreements, which attempt to trade services. TiSA, TTIP, GATS, GPA, TPPA, NAFTA, CAFTA and so on, is that it will be very bad for the indigenous (and legal immigrants with green cards - basically everybody who makes a 'normal' wage for their professions in those countries, because the programs undermine their work's value.) bad for the workforces of developed countries, but that gains in profits will benefit the owners of businesses in those countries so much that the overall effect will be a gain. See graphic. This graphic has been repeated again and again in the academic literature pushing these changes. One prominent advocate of this point of view is economist Jagdish Bhagwati. There are many others. Keywords "labour mobility" "movement of natural persons" "services liberalization" (or liberalisation will likely do better, use the UK spellings because the literature in US academic publishing is far more sparse than in the European.)

If you'll do this you'll find that the US's negotiating positios on a large body of issues is quite different than what most of we Americans likely want and that its also quite debatable if from a business standpoint it is even wise to push for these things because they may in many cases hurt business. They are not the kind of business most people would undertake to do.

I think we would do far better if we started fresh and looked at the entire situation differently.

It has quite a history though. And there is the problem. Its impossible to explain it in just a few words, and the various histories that exist that I have found all try to push their own views of it. None of which I think is likely to be particularly accurate.

So its a big mess. They really made a huge mistake by making services, 80% of the typical developed country economy, tradable.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #144 on: January 14, 2019, 02:17:48 pm »

So, it's your assertion Trump's father built Trump's empire and Trump just inherited everything from his father?

ummm.. yeah, okay, you keep believing that.

You didn't process what I just said, but believe what you will - if it pleases you!  ::)
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #145 on: January 14, 2019, 02:18:01 pm »
So, it's your assertion Trump's father built Trump's empire and Trump just inherited everything from his father?

ummm.. yeah, okay, you keep believing that.
Where did that empire go? You don't truly believe Trump only inherited one million dollar or some comparable amount? As far as I know he's never released his tax records which could prove or disprove his statements.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #146 on: January 14, 2019, 02:40:46 pm »
The core thing nctnico is saying is largely correct. He inherited a lot of his wealth from his father, Fred's huge real estate empire in various ways, not all of them widely known. A number of journalists have written up this history, so its findable.

Trump's 'success' was highly leveraged - gambling with other people's money - and that likely left him quite beholden to a great many groups of people which may have been his appeal to the people who run the US, controllability. He is hardly the 'self made man' his acolytes have been convinced he is. OTOH, I don't think he is by any means as right wing as he represents himself to be.

However, he is very right wing nonetheless.

Both parties are in the US, economically, they are trying to force the entire planet to the right and basically steal and lock down future policy space with a web of trade agreements that take away rights from people and funnel them to corporations, any corporation, so this could easily and almost certainly will backfire on the US, with its high labor costs.

Its a very stupid policy.

There is a Mob term, "busting out the joint" which means intentionally running up as large a debt as could possibly be created in a controlled business entity's name.

Thats what they are doing, and pocketing those gains to themselves now. Leaving as its aftermath, a country stripped of value, where its workforce is priced out of its own job market by the elimination of non-tariff barriers like wage laws and restrictions on corporate business travel to work, corporations will be happy to have the opportunity to have their cheapest workers work here, foot the bill for their housing and food, and millions will lose their jobs. This is being done in the name of 'free trade' but it actually resembles the slave trade much more because the wages will be a fraction of those today.

So, those gains are not only not going to all of us but we seem to also now be framed as owing a debt (in jobs, they claim, a debt in jobs, in 'market access') to the oligarchy in other countries (they are the ones who will collect the profits, not their workers, who they insist they have a right to pay whatever they want to) and those 'debts' are illegitimate just like the debts run up by developing countries when their ruling classes stole the aid money they received from organizations like the World Bank are illegitimate (the so called "Third World Debt") because that money was lent without any oversight when it was clear it was going to be stolen. And it was.

So now we have a real mess on our hands that they keep making worse and worse with more FTAs.

Also, it should be known that the Trumps and Clintons are old friends, I suspect very close friends, their daughters are literally best friends.

Uh yea - past employees who know how stupid he is.  :-DD
Stupid guy who took a million dollars and transformed it into a multi-billion-dollar empire.
He didn't do that. He inherited everything from his father. And Trump did very poor with his investments. Forbes has a graph somewhere with how much wealth rich people gained over the past 27 years. Trump did way worse than the stock exchange! He got an interest rate of around 1.25% over that period (corrected for inflation). The stock exchange is around 3% (including the severe crashes we have seen in the recent 15 years).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 03:04:05 pm by cdev »
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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #147 on: January 14, 2019, 03:02:08 pm »
He inherited a lot of his wealth from his father, Fred's huge real estate empire in various ways, not all of them widely known.

My recollection is Trump's father passed away in the late 90's and his net worth was estimated to be about a half-billion. Trump's net worth is conservatively estimated almost an order of magnitude higher. Suggesting he "inherited everything from his father" is silly.

I'm not fans of the Clintons, but I'm able to recognize and acknowledge Bill's political acumen and ability to leverage it for his own financial benefit. People with Trump Derangement Syndrome are unable to do the same (recognize and acknowledge Trump's success)
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Online xrunner

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #148 on: January 14, 2019, 03:06:07 pm »
Oh and the lies - the constant lies. Every time he opens his mouth you must be ready for a lie.

Here's a nice list of Trumps constant incessant lying, peruse at your leisure.  :-DD

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/
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Offline cdev

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Re: Impact of US government spending impasse
« Reply #149 on: January 14, 2019, 03:24:42 pm »
I didn't say he 'inherited everything' I said he inherited a lot.

And as they say, its the first half billion thats the hardest. ;)

The problem is that Trump's business empire which is worldwide is made up of partnerships, in his case, largely real estate based ones, with lots of unsavory people, just as the Clintons was/is. And those people now expect favors. The favors are now so large that they threaten everybody's futures. Thats what they have not told us and its a really important thing. Something that need to tell us but can't. Creating a looming crisis no matter whose demands are serviced, because multiple groups of people now expect multiple outcomes which are in conflict with one another. Feathering a global elites nests, All at the nation's people and the people of the world's expense. The few sources of security Americans still have are being taken. In an organized manner. So that attention will never be focused on the huge concentrations of wealth because people will be fighting for their survival. This is the oldest trick in the book. And it works.

I think that is called a control fraud when it occurs in banking. International law should view a large number of things as "unconscionable" and policy as untouchable by a countrys leadership no matter what they do or say. Other countries should be required to not allow it, but instead they all get carte blanche to do whatever they want, loot whatever they want, from their own people. Who end up having to pay off their elite's gambling debts. Again and again. But the thefts keep getting larger.

Basically, we're all in grave danger of falling for the biggest con job ever. Its going to cost us all our middle class and quality of life. This is being done because they feel that the expansion of the global middle class that they pay lip service to, and especially the rising expectations more and more people had of rising living standards, in the 20th century, caused big problems for them, also they feel that the rise in automation should be accompanied by a free fall in wages, and increased profits.

They all feel that, as its what classical economics says. Elite groups radiate entitlement, just radiate an oppressive sense of entitlement. Given the changes developing countries need to make to have a real middle class things don't look good if that continues as it has unchecked by a more inclusive set of values. Its not going to happen by itself. The US and EU made a really big mistake throwing in our lot with the oligarchy in the developing world because that oligarchy is carrying a lot of baggage, they are emphatically not willing to share power. Nor do our TNCs want the cheap raw materials to end. Thats the deal they have struck with the elites. We'll keep you in power if you help us loot your countries.

So the big losers end up being the aspirations of non-wealthy people around the world for better, and our middle class, largely because we've been totally kept in the dark, and in comparison to many other countries that fund students who make good progress towards degrees, deprived our young people of access to the higher educations we all would need to understand what they are doing, and why, leaving us with nothing but our gut intuitions that things are very wrong and what we feel should change, and a growing sense of fatigue that eventually becomes apathy or anger, not productive willingness to change things. And thats intentional, the killing of hope.

Many largely have abdicated their duties as a supposedly democratic civil society to keep our government honest and in sync with what the people want and need. What we're getting now is so profoundly out of sync with that it is likely to go down in the history books as one of the biggest mistakes made by governments.

But these kinds of mistakes are the price of letting NPDs run a country, and they happen again and again with depressing regularity.

We need to be able to prevent this. Also, we should make a very large effort that we have never even attempted to decrease the ever widening gaps between rich and poor and make opportunity something that talented people of all economic backgrounds can find.

The maker movement is a very positive thing which should get a lot of help. The problem is, the GATS and its progeny deliberately tie governments (at all levels, federal, state and local) hands whenever a commercial entity sells a service in a country, government can't "distort trade" by assisting people to get it any more unless whatever they do is deliberately crippled and only the most minimal thing possible. And that is allowed only in cases of market failure.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 04:27:03 pm by cdev »
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