Author Topic: impedance problem in suez canal  (Read 7145 times)

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Offline Syntax Error

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2021, 06:42:18 pm »
400m by ~50m high makes for a 20,000 square meter 'wind jammer'. By comparison, a soccer pitch is ~7000 square meters. Back of envelope mode: a beam-on breeze at 10m/s is a million newtons of deflection? Once a cross wind had her moving, she was not going to stop. I wonder if the bow thrusters were in use?
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2021, 07:01:30 pm »
The ship is leaking, two compartments taking on water "in the forward void space of the vessel and the bow thruster room." Smit Salvage says you can damage the ship more using tugs, so the dredging and high Spring tides better work.

About a dozen ships are turning back to take the Cape Horn Cape of Good Hope route, so somebody thinks this will take several weeks to resolve.

Before the crash, ship was hauling ass at 13.5 knots, canal speed limit is 7-6-8.6 knots.
I don't see training to include side gusts of wind. I'm skeptical that is the cause of the accident.

edit: fixed cape
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 08:19:53 pm by floobydust »
 

Online langwadt

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2021, 07:44:28 pm »
The ship is leaking, two compartments taking on water "in the forward void space of the vessel and the bow thruster room." Smit Salvage says you can damage the ship more using tugs, so the dredging and high Spring tides better work.

About a dozen ships are turning back to take the Cape Horn route, so somebody thinks this will take several weeks to resolve.

Before the crash, ship was hauling ass at 13.5 knots, canal speed limit is 7-6-8.6 knots.
I don't see training to include side gusts of wind. I'm skeptical that is the cause of the accident.

such a big ship will be required to have a pilot on board, maybe he was sleeping
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2021, 07:45:25 pm »
About a dozen ships are turning back to take the Cape Horn route, so somebody thinks this will take several weeks to resolve.

Cape of Good Hope actually. That's another 8.5 days (assuming that you're not already stuck in the jam), so yes, it seems a reasonable risk - especially when you consider how long it's going to take to clear the backlog!


such a big ship will be required to have a pilot on board, maybe he was sleeping

From floobydust's link, they had two canal pilots on board.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 07:49:08 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2021, 07:49:56 pm »
such a big ship will be required to have a pilot on board, maybe he was sleeping

Maybe he's a former Cairo taxi driver.... :o
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Offline floobydust

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2021, 10:20:43 pm »
About a dozen ships are turning back to take the Cape Horn route, so somebody thinks this will take several weeks to resolve.
Cape of Good Hope actually. That's another 8.5 days (assuming that you're not already stuck in the jam), so yes, it seems a reasonable risk - especially when you consider how long it's going to take to clear the backlog!

Fixed. I think the new route times are longer? I was reading around 10 days additional, plus port backlog time. This is especially terrible for European trade.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2021, 10:51:32 pm »
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2021, 04:16:28 am »
The users of the marine forumn i read are calling for Tugs with a minimum of 200 Tons Bollard Pull. Evidenty those do not grow on trees in the area. They are also calling for a rock cutting dredge to open out the canal bottom, besides moving the sand. They feel the ideal solution will be hydraulic chain pullers installed on land. So the problem is a logistics issue.

Steve
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Offline Gyro

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2021, 06:48:28 pm »
It sounds as if they can move the stern by about 30 degrees but there's a big mass of rock under the bow - probably not were you want it and pretty hard to move with the weight of a container ship on to of it! It's probably acting as a very high wear single use bearing as the shift the stern from side to side too.  :scared:

Prepare to lighten ship!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-56547383
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2021, 06:57:53 pm »
Just flood the Suez with hydrogen peroxide, the increased density should make the boat float higher, no? Seems simple enough, I'll head to the pharmacy and start buying some...
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2021, 07:00:39 pm »
It sounds as if they can move the stern by about 30 degrees but there's a big mass of rock under the bow -

Initial news made it seem as if the ship lost power and sort of drifted onto a soft, sandy bank or something and then turned sideways.  What really appears to have happened is that it rammed a reinforced concrete wall at 13 knots.  It's firmly beached and there is going to be significant damage to the underside of the bow.  If they don't have it off tonight, it looks like they'll need to start moving containers off of the front.  Truly a first-order f***-up.
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2021, 09:35:00 pm »
Another graduate of the Francesco Schettino Institute of Marine Piloting?
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2021, 09:52:58 pm »
How much longer it take across the cape depends on where one starts and the ships speed: a container vessel may be nearly twice as fast as a oil tanker going low speed to save on fuel.

Just flood the Suez with hydrogen peroxide, the increased density should make the boat float higher, no? Seems simple enough, I'll head to the pharmacy and start buying some...
This is not a good idea, though it may (dis)solve the problem.  :-DD
 

Offline antenna

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2021, 10:01:13 pm »
I was disappointed when I saw how far the ship is from the mouth of the canal. I really wanted to see them touch off a little nuke under water and send a tsunami up the canal to lift her loose. Could have a tug drop a few anchors up the canal a bit so the wave straightens her out in the process. They have insurance on the cargo, don't they?  :-DD
 

Online coppercone2Topic starter

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2021, 10:29:46 pm »
how about mounting rockets to it

given the size of it and how efficent gasoline is and how long it takes for a force to build up in it I don't think it would be too good unless you need to apply force in a different point along with a strong yank to dislodge something, but it sounds like this might turn into a scrap removal job if it floods (I think it depends on how good the bulkheads are, i.e. is the ship warped), if they are good it can be welded up and pumped dry

I think typically the problem with ships is when they get fucked up mechanically and the doors between compartments cannot close well, I imagine it gets expensive

but there aint no welder on the planet that won't be worth the money at the rate they are loosing it and the dollar value of the ship, they can get 5k an hour and it won't scratch that recovery budget


You know I do wonder if the ship coulda been hacked to do that. they can always blame hackers
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 10:37:28 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2021, 10:51:38 pm »

This is not a good idea, though it may (dis)solve the problem.  :-DD

How about more good old sodium chloride? Dead Sea that sucker out of there!
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Offline MikeK

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2021, 11:03:48 pm »
The users of the marine forumn i read are calling for Tugs with a minimum of 200 Tons Bollard Pull. Evidenty those do not grow on trees in the area.

And one estimate I heard was that it might require 33,000 tons of pull.  That's a lot of tug boats.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2021, 11:11:19 pm »
The users of the marine forumn i read are calling for Tugs with a minimum of 200 Tons Bollard Pull. Evidenty those do not grow on trees in the area.

And one estimate I heard was that it might require 33,000 tons of pull.  That's a lot of tug boats.

Well, there's a Saturn V already on its side in Florida, maybe they can press that thing into service for a few seconds...
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Offline TimFox

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2021, 11:49:05 pm »
For comparison, a Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range Rwy class M-3 "Yellowstone" 2-8-8-4 simple articulated heavy-duty steam locomotive has a tractive force of 70 US tons.
When I was a mere lad, I could see (through my bedroom window) these in operation, hauling heavy trains of iron ore, and assumed that they were "normal".  I later found that Yellowstones were the highest tractive force steam units ever operated in the US.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2021, 11:58:12 pm »
For comparison, a Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range Rwy class M-3 "Yellowstone" 2-8-8-4 simple articulated heavy-duty steam locomotive has a tractive force of 70 US tons.
When I was a mere lad, I could see (through my bedroom window) these in operation, hauling heavy trains of iron ore, and assumed that they were "normal".  I later found that Yellowstones were the highest tractive force steam units ever operated in the US.

This thing is nearby, how much can it pull?

https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=USS-Harry-S-Truman-CVN75
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2021, 12:22:15 am »
This thing is nearby, how much can it pull?
https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=USS-Harry-S-Truman-CVN75

If thrust scales with power, perhaps 4000 tons.  But I don't think you can bring a Nimitz-class carrier to full power in the middle of that canal without having some other issues.  Perhaps the propwash would help free up the cargo ship or maybe it would tip it over.
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2021, 12:55:23 am »
I think someone on FB got it figured out.  Just need to find some good tow straps.



Seriously though, pile drive some big beams into the ground and some kind of very large industrial winch could maybe be used.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 12:57:46 am by Red Squirrel »
 
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Offline Gyro

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2021, 09:09:35 am »
Yay, they've swung the stern 80 degrees.... and still stuck!  |O

I wonder how much it would take to fully empty  the ballast, fuel etc. and roll it out of the way onto the bank! Cheap at twice the price.

Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: impedance problem in suez canal
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2021, 11:01:10 am »
Why not use camels?
 


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