Poll

Should there be an off-topic section? (Assuming the hot-button topic rules REMAIN)

Absolutely NOT. Keep forum as-is.
I don't really care
Yes, good idea. Open to everyone.
Yes, good idea. But visible only to Regular Contributors.

Author Topic: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?  (Read 27424 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39273
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« on: September 07, 2022, 12:14:58 pm »
I believe this forum poll has been run several times in the past, and the result has been that the majority didn't want an "off-topic" lounge.
But I think it's time to re-evaluate it.

The current forum rules enourage on-topic discussion, and whilst it's natural for topics to drift off-topic, when a thread gets reported for it, moderators generally need to step in.
If anything changes, this would of course remain the rule for the electronics forum in general.

The reasons for not having an off-topic section in the past have been that it would:
a) dominate the "unread posts since last visit" list and could potentially put off newbies who joins and just see a list of gun and religious debates at the top of the list.
b) potentially create greater animosity between users as a result of personal conflicts. Although the longer the forum has gone, the more I see this happens with on-topic posts anyway  ;D

I can now see potential value in an off-topic section for those that use the forum as a "home" so to speak, and naturally want to discuss other stuff with their friends in the one location. Rather than forcing them elsewhere to do that. This could of course be good for the forum in terms of greater engagement amoung users, but it could also backfire as per b) above.

As for a) above. If there was as off-topic section then it could be hidden from Newbies and Contributor, and only shows up to Regular Contributors with 50 posts or more. That's an easy option in the SMF forum software, just like the Supporters Lounge becomes visible once you hit 1000 posts.  believe a forum poll has been run several times in the past, and the result has been that the majority didn't want an "off-topic" lounge. But I'm happy to run such a poll again if anyone thinks it's a good idea.
The reasons for not having an off-topic section have been that it would
a) dominate the "unread posts since last visit" list and could potentially put off newbies who joins and just see a list of gun and religious debates at the top of the list.
b) potentially create greater animosity between users as a result of conflicts. Although the longer the forum has gone, the more I see this happens with on-topic posts too.

I can now see potential value in an off-topic section for those that use the forum as a "home" so to speak, and naturally want to discuss other stuff they are interested in or are passionate about with their online friends in the one location. Rather than forcing them elsewhere to do that.
Heck, it might even make the forum a more community oriented space?  :-//

If there was as off-topic section then it could be hidden from Newbies and Contributor categories, and only shows up to Regular Contributors with 50 posts or more.
My personal opinion is that such a category is not a good idea for Newbies at the very least.

Such a section could require it's own moderator to keep things in line, a trusted "local" who frequents the thread. I probably wouldn't hang out there myself, and it's likely the other current moderators wouldn't frequent it either. So would have to moderate based on report requests.
The No Personal Attacks rule would still be in force.

FYI, those who don't like it can always use the Ignore Topics thread and they'll never see notification from an off-topic section. This feature currently exists BTW for any section of the forum.

All comments appreciated. Thanks.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 12:44:56 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8285
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2022, 12:34:07 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39273
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2022, 12:41:26 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

It has to be really extreme to get banned from here for just off-topic posting. But yeah, I can see why people would be worried.
In this case off-topic thread started elsewhere in the forum could simply be moved to the new section instead of deleted as sometimes happens.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2022, 12:43:23 pm »

If there was as off-topic section then it could be hidden from Newbies and Contributor categories, and only shows up to Regular Contributors with 50 posts or more.
My personal opinion is that such a category is not a good idea for Newbies at the very least.

I support the idea.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Jackster

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 511
  • Country: gb
    • PCBA.UK
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2022, 12:44:19 pm »
Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6167
  • Country: au
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2022, 12:49:55 pm »
Australians are big on free-speech and I doubt Dave is any different.

I get that EEVblog started with humble beginnings but it has grown to be much more.

I'm in two minds... a completely off-topic forum can work well as long as it's implemented properly (what that looks like should be up for discussion). However, if you do choose to venture into that area, users need to be prepared to be offended, insulted etc... etc... Short of filtering for spam and obvious trolls, I don't see that it's our job to be moderating what people say in that kind of area. I think the rules need to be clear. Basically, apply the "pub test".

On the other hand I'm mindful of this forum becoming like Whirlpool (Whingepool), which is an over-moderated mess of conflicting opinions and people with sand in their vagina. Even between the site owner and the long list of moderators, they can't keep their shit together. EEVblog should never be allowed to become that... never in a million years.

For a "Completely off-topic" section, you're basically agreeing to delve into the deep, dark areas of people's minds across the world.... "No blame" policy applies. You were warned!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 12:56:31 pm by Halcyon »
 
The following users thanked this post: EEVblog, thm_w, Ian.M, HobGoblyn, pcprogrammer

Offline tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8285
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2022, 12:50:12 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

It has to be really extreme to get banned from here for just off-topic posting. But yeah, I can see why people would be worried.
In this case off-topic thread started elsewhere in the forum could simply be moved to the new section instead of deleted as sometimes happens.
The moderation here is usually very good.
But I also know that moderators are people, they have good and bad days, or they would take people who participated in it, and give the boot for all.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39273
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2022, 12:54:41 pm »
Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge

Xenforo fanboy alert!  ;D
Yes, I like Xenforo, and if the forum software ever changed that would be my first choice.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jackster

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28503
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2022, 12:57:03 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: bigfoot22

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6167
  • Country: au
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2022, 12:59:28 pm »
Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge

Xenforo fanboy alert!  ;D
Yes, I like Xenforo, and if the forum software ever changed that would be my first choice.

Well.... is it time to discuss that too? There are so many aspects of SMF that I hate (as both a moderator and a user). Or is that biting off more than we can chew at the moment?
 
The following users thanked this post: Ranayna

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6167
  • Country: au
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2022, 01:01:31 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).
 
The following users thanked this post: tszaboo, sokoloff

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2022, 01:04:13 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.

Or it could be a great opportunity to help peeps with that kind of funk interact better. As suggested, it's only for active users so most of the quirks are near the surface already wouldn't you say?

I'd be interested to see a plan for what happens if someone does indeed fail the 'pub test'.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39273
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2022, 01:04:20 pm »
I get that EEVblog started with humble beginnings but it has grown to be much more.

Yes, I think the bigger the forum gets, the more time people will tend to spend on here, and the more they will feel it kinda like an online "home" rather then just some place they talk electronics. Like the water cooler at work.

Quote
I'm in two minds... a completely off-topic forum can work well as long as it's implemented properly (what that looks like should be up for discussion). However, if you do choose to venture into that area, users need to be prepared to be offended, insulted etc... etc... Short of filtering for spam and obvious trolls, I don't see that it's our job to be moderating what people say in that kind of area. I think the rules need to be clear. Basically, apply the "pub test".

Yes, I see the only basic rule being no personal attacks. I see no value in allowing that.
The existing rules already have the "you have no right NOT to be offended" part.
Obviously extreme stuff would not be allowed, like porn, graphic images, and absolute outright hatred and vitrol.
For all we know the section could become filled with boring office water cooler talk about flipping houses or something.

Quote
On the other hand I'm mindful of this forum becoming like Whirlpool (Whingepool), which is an over-moderated mess of conflicting opinions and people with sand in their vagina. Even between the site owner and the long list of moderators, they can't keep their shit together. EEVblog should never be allowed to become that... never in a million years.

I've heard Whirlpool being cited many times as a forum that was destroyed by moderation.
This forum has always had a pretty laid back approach to moderation, and I don't see that changing.
An off-topic section might even make the rest fo the forum better and more focussed?  :-//
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2022, 01:04:58 pm »
Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge

Xenforo fanboy alert!  ;D
Yes, I like Xenforo, and if the forum software ever changed that would be my first choice.

Well.... is it time to discuss that too? There are so many aspects of SMF that I hate (as both a moderator and a user). Or is that biting off more than we can chew at the moment?

 :palm:

Poor Geoff.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39273
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2022, 01:06:38 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.

That's always been my fear, but as the years have rolled on I've been seeing that happen more and more anyway, it doesn't seem to take much if any off-topic to trigger a fued.
 

Offline HighVoltage

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5562
  • Country: de
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2022, 01:07:31 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
The following users thanked this post: Zucca

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6167
  • Country: au
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2022, 01:08:44 pm »
An off-topic section might even make the rest fo the forum better and more focussed?  :-//

That's the goal.

Poor Geoff.

I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2022, 01:10:51 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

Small things that, I've noticed nearly every time, they won't cease escalating when asked not to.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 01:12:45 pm by Ed.Kloonk »
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6167
  • Country: au
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2022, 01:11:17 pm »
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

Care to provide examples? Because I can't think of a single one. Keep in mind, what you guys see and what also happens in moderation reports and private messages can be completely different things.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39273
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2022, 01:12:01 pm »
Poor Geoff.
I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.

My shout. Name the pub.
 

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6167
  • Country: au
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39273
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2022, 01:13:51 pm »
From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

It's always based on a consistent pattern of behaviour, and usually multiple user reports over a long period of time, and no willingness to stop.
 


Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12420
  • Country: au
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2022, 01:44:49 pm »
If this is in response to the recent "difficulties" then I don't think it's really relevant.  The kerfuffle occurred because of the behaviour of a small section of the membership that escalated because of (IMO) a narcissistic and recalcitrant attitude.  There is some credibility in the criticism of Moderation efforts - but they would not have come to such a level if the membership involved had responded.

NO amount of shuffling deck chairs is going to do anything that will avert such issues in the future.

The only thing required is for every member to act with basic respect for others and an awareness of their own actions.  This has worked for many years - and will continue to do so

Personally, I find the concessions and provisions already given were unnecessary, but I see the value it has provided - by demonstrating that those who run the show are open to suggestions.


If this is just to ask because it seemed like a reasonable time to ask, then I ask: "What do you intend to achieve with such a change?".  I have a feeling the answer will circle back to my first point above.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 01:47:47 pm by Brumby »
 

Online RoGeorge

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7083
  • Country: ro
Re: IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2022, 01:57:10 pm »
No Dave.  Don't do that, please!  Don't allow offtopic, political and other crap.
That will kill the electronics forum and the community.

Your forum is not growing, as Halcyon is claiming.  Quite contrary, it's shrinking.

There are way less interesting topics, visitors or posters than it used to be 3-5 years ago.  I know because I am visiting/reading/posting here many times daily, for years.  It used to be that the difference between first-last post in the "Most Recent" was 20 minutes, now it's about 2 hours during the EU daylight, and about 3 hours during the US daylight.  Often even more.

We have a nice community here exactly because we focus on electronics, science, engineering hobbies and passion.  We ignore the political rage, and the day to day realities that drives everybody crazy.

This forum, right now it's one of the last refuges, an oasis away from facebook/tweeter/tiktok/you name what.

Face it, this place will never be as big as the above mentioned platforms.  If you try to grow it like that you'll kill what EEVblog is today.  This forum will turn from a gem into yet another woke-fest, political-rage, whatever-trendy echo chamber of the bigger networks.  EEVblog will become yet another no-identity swamp of sheeple to be steered.  Is that what you want?

Most probably an off-topic section will split the community even further, making others to live, either one by one, or in groups (to make their own forums someplace else), similar with what just happened after the TEA moderation incident only a few days ago.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 01:59:37 pm by RoGeorge »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf