IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?

[PlainName]

Thank you for your considered and definitely not flame-baiting response.

[tggzzz]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

[Brumby]

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

So true.

This is where "the vibe" has been so successful for so long.  It is flexible enough so that things do not snap the moment a line is stepped over - but allows for retreat back behind the line.  With just a little tolerance, this approach can work well - as it has done on the EEVblog for years.

[RJSV]

   Some organizations crack-down, for indiscretions, but put 'offenders' on a timed  absence...That way folks won't feel so fatal involvement, with so-called permanent bans, but have the time (or time-out) to contemplate.

[AVGresponding]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.

If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.

[N0NB]

Dave,

I think you have steered away from the idea of a wide open anything goes forum which is a good idea.  Targeted off-topic forums are likely much more manageable.  Areas like hobbies or work interests would seem to lend themselves to moderation.  Instant hot button topics really don't lend themselves to moderation but rather subject everyone to polarizing cries over "free speech" issues which never seem to end well.

Many years ago, before what is currently known as social media, I was a member of a Web forum who eventually was chosen to be a moderator.  About the same time there emerged a clique on the forum who mostly interacted with each other but were polluting the various forums with junk posts mostly in the vein of junior high humor.  It didn't matter if one of the clique was actually trying to have a serious post on a subject, the other hyenas quickly descended and started their shtick.  The administrator created an off-topic forum as a means to cope and for a time most of the garbage stayed there.  Over time, like honey, it attracted newer forum members who weren't aware of the history and who eventually got chewed up and spat out by the clique.  A lot of folk that just wanted information on their project got sucked in and it didn't take long for word to get around to other like-minded forums that this particular one was one to avoid.

Another pastime of the clique was to ride the fence as it were to push the limit regarding the forum rules.  Eventually, I too had my fill, resigned, and simply stopped visiting the place regularly.  As a mod I was left with few tools other than deleting posts which would pop right back up.  Playing whack-a-mole for any length of time isn't my idea of fun.  The admin was largely MIA at the time and only he could suspend posting privileges or ban members.  Once the clique figured that out it was game over.

In the years since I checked it out a few times and the clique seemed to be about the only activity left.  I always thought it was a sad ending for a site that in the early years I was a member was a lot of fun and had a lot of mutual respect and valuable input into each others' projects.

The choice is yours, but I know what I would not do.

[tggzzz]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.

If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.

That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.

The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.

[m k]

Since everything is said at least seven times is it time for conclusion.

First there where Chat, later it was labeled General Technical Chat.
First there where also TEA "chat", later it turned to more serious and even later it tried to go back, partially.

Now a middle ground between old Chat and General Technical Chat is possibly needed.

Current "Gas Armageddon" is clearly showing that content is not the issue, it's nuances of presentation.
Even clearer(ly?) if back channel moderation there is non existent.

Maybe all that is needed is just a bit of shuffling.
Rename General to RL Activities, Other Communities to General and move General Technical Chat to new General.
Relabel old TEA to more hardcore and new TEA to TEA Chat.

New hierarchy can then go so that too light stuff from everywhere can be splitted to General.
And if something in General General is big enough it can have its own section, like Cooking and TEA Chat, at least photography, cars and wood working are also mentioned.

[tautech]

Since everything is said at least seven times is it time for conclusion.

Careful now, that might imply it's time for commonsense to be applied, something that's not that common. 

[tggzzz]

Since everything is said at least seven times is it time for conclusion.
...
Maybe all that is needed is just a bit of shuffling.
...
New hierarchy can then go so that too light stuff from everywhere can be splitted to General.

Obsessing about hierarchies is an exercise in non-productive deck chair shuffling. Hierarchies do, however, provide a good starting point for barrack room laywers and officious busybodies. Academics even get brownie points for renaming/moving species

All tree hierarchies are wrong in most ways, and right in one way. The best they can hope for is to indicate is where something shouldn't be.

Most people simply use the "Show unread posts since last visit" and "Show new replies to your posts" and "Search" links to find stuff. Those are designed to ignore hierarchies.

[m k]

It's not our hierarchy, it's maintenance hierarchy.

[AVGresponding]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.

If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.

That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.

The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.

Something we find in great abundance, in the people actually responsible for making the rules.

Oh, wait...

[m k]

Maintenance Hierarchy would also enable all kind of niche sections, like Hanging Ministers.

Possible hot section would be Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues.

[RJSV]

   A couple hours, (or several), viewing the posts that stray OFF-TOPIC, in 'Energy Armageddon', it just seems like a pile of partial excursions into distractions, partial personal slurs, indecipherable sarcasm, and almost no electronic supply-chain.
   I believe that's a mess, for the moderators, (and that's only my posts...lol).  Moderators, I bet, don't really want to wade into a big mass of upset, slandering or 'partial' slanders...whatever that is.  Then, they (Moderators) have to face all manner of criticism, like:
   "I tried to mention the evil, of the fat slobs, in Lower Slabikia, and the Mods were UNFAIR, and deleted my rants..."   ...(sigh).
   That's a lot of work, sorting thru all those non-topic posts.  And, I've been guilty of doing that, trying the limits, boundaries of what can be posted.

[tggzzz]

Maintenance Hierarchy would also enable all kind of niche sections, like Hanging Ministers.

Possible hot section would be Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues.

As long as all the fiddlers and diddlers play there and not elsewhere, it would probably be good

[tautech]

   A couple hours, (or several), viewing the posts that stray OFF-TOPIC, in 'Energy Armageddon', it just seems like a pile of partial excursions into distractions, partial personal slurs, indecipherable sarcasm, and almost no electronic supply-chain.
   I believe that's a mess, for the moderators, (and that's only my posts...lol).  Moderators, I bet, don't really want to wade into a big mass of upset, slandering or 'partial' slanders...whatever that is.  Then, they (Moderators) have to face all manner of criticism, like:
   "I tried to mention the evil, of the fat slobs, in Lower Slabikia, and the Mods were UNFAIR, and deleted my rants..."   ...(sigh).
   That's a lot of work, sorting thru all those non-topic posts.  And, I've been guilty of doing that, trying the limits, boundaries of what can be posted.

Yet it's still civil with punch and counter punch thrown, just as any good debate should be.
As the EU is the other side of the world to us in NZ I for one have learnt some from that thread from the differing POV's.

[m k]

I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.

I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.

I'd say also that there community moderation failed.
Obviously no completely, but pretty much too slow it was.

Dedicated section moderator could have spotted the case earlier and moved the thread to beginners section, not because of OP but because of assumed answers in TE section.
The badge here is also not exactly moderator, maintenance is more accurate.

When I wrote this 90% of active forum hits was guests, is that a norm, I think it is.
Some are bots and some are like me who is usually surfing offline.
But some are later newbies, maintenance is also for them.

Is moderator a negative word?
East and west have different mind sets.
Eastern king was good for people, nobles were bad and every now and then king had to whip them.
Western king was with the nobles so nobody whipped them, occasionally Pope was also with them.

Some times people in the know have a feel to say it.
Not because of prestige or something like that, just shearing is enough.
Is there then any real differences if that continues after some maintenance operations.

[tggzzz]

I'd say also that there community moderation failed.
Obviously no completely, but pretty much too slow it was.

It worked well enough for a very long time.

History shows that all cooperative communities have occasional bust ups and schisms.

Nothing else works all the time.

Choose your poison wisely, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

[pcprogrammer]

.......

I just looked at the thread you mentioned and this behavior can be seen a lot on this forum. The more established members do like their technical debates, without considering what the original poster needs to know.

At some point BillyO (message #45 and #74) tries to steer things a bit, but it does not help. Maybe because he is also a newbie? (36 posts) And this seems to be weighed on this forum, when looking at the recent discussions we had about for example the TEA thread.

But moderation on something like this is difficult. There is no real off topic drift, because it is all about the needed sample rate and bandwidth to reproduce a signal on a scope screen. So even for a more involved moderator it would be difficult to asses what is needed in this situation.

There is no 100% foolproof solution for the case at hand, and with that I mean the whole forum of course.

[tggzzz]

.......

I just looked at the thread you mentioned and this behavior can be seen a lot on this forum. The more established members do like their technical debates, without considering what the original poster needs to know.

At some point BillyO (message #45 and #74) tries to steer things a bit, but it does not help. Maybe because he is also a newbie? (36 posts) And this seems to be weighed on this forum, when looking at the recent discussions we had about for example the TEA thread.

But moderation on something like this is difficult. There is no real off topic drift, because it is all about the needed sample rate and bandwidth to reproduce a signal on a scope screen. So even for a more involved moderator it would be difficult to asses what is needed in this situation.

There is no 100% foolproof solution for the case at hand, and with that I mean the whole forum of course.

Precisely, except...

Moderation on something like that is not "difficult", it is irrelevant. If someone wants such moderation, I would direct them to stakexchange or seaboard.

If such moderation ever became relevant, this forum would die, and would deserve to die!

[EEVblog]

I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.

I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.

Was there something wrong with that thread that I missed? 

[tggzzz]

I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.

I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.

Was there something wrong with that thread that I missed? 

You didn't miss anything. Rest easy 

[m k]

But moderation on something like this is difficult.

Difficulty depends on the height of the horse, from ivory tower it's very difficult but among friends it's very easy.
Obviously, and even among friends, different actual actions can change things.

[m k]

Moderation on something like that is not "difficult", it is irrelevant.

I don't understand what exactly in it is irrelevant.
At least participants experience of the thread is relevant, all of them.
Shy voices must be guided, maybe guarded.

Grumpy old men are not exactly a disappearing resource but their electronics can be.
More vocal folks will also always dominate, difference is only in contents.

Community moderation will work indefinitely if community stays homogeneous enough.
And fails instantly when heterogeneous goes over the tipping point, simply because different groups have so different demands.

Bringing up stackexchange indicates that your moderator is preventing things.
My moderator is maintaining things.
And Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues of Maintenance Hierarchy would handle nit pickers.

Community moderation of heterogeneous community can still work but then its homogeneous parts must be, at least partially separated.
If Other Communities here get Cars section it can finally and quite easily dominate the traffic of the whole place but would that be a bad thing.
Forums can also split under the same roof, so Dave would still benefit, I guess.

[m k]

I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.

I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.

Was there something wrong with that thread that I missed? 

No, and what tggzzz said.

Maybe some insights for one question.
Would, from maintenance team point of view, rotating active member moderator, if that kind of thought has been up, of TEA thread have exploded the thing already years ago?