IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?

[wilfred]

An off-topic section might even make the rest fo the forum better and more focussed? 

That was what I thought of the TEA thread.

But I still think a small group of members laying down rules to suit themselves e.g. low post count members are unwelcome, is not going to end well. It smacks of a them-and-us attitude.

The forum has its faults but I've learned to live with them. I don't want change.

[pcprogrammer]

Interesting how these things go. Getting a bit of a brexit vibe in the setup. The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490) based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.

Also missing is a well laid out idea about what the vote is about, judging by the now changed title of the poll.

Seen some good points in the comments here, like the section not being visible to "guests", so it does not become a magnet to attract the morons out there in the world.

But a simple solution for the more established members is already there. The supporters lounge is a place where it is possible to create a thread to discuss what might be a bit sensitive.

Take from it what you like.

[Brumby]

The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490)

The total member count is a useless metric.  I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute).  The number of voters IS a significant number - because it represents a significant number of members that:
 1. Are engaged here regularly enough to have been active since the poll's creation
 2. Have come across the poll
 3. Have had an opinion
 4. They have expressed that opinion by voting

From my observations, the number of members who recorded a vote in this one is better than a lot of polls.

based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.

The key here: What you think.

I think you are WAAAAY off base - being dismissive of a clear indication of "No".  You seem to ignore the fact that there has been a very stressful exercise recently that has polarised many opinions and, if anything, people have put a lot more time into thinking about the question than ever before.

You have NO evidence to support the assertion: "without taking the time to really think about it all."

[RoGeorge]

EEVblog will become yet another no-identity swamp of sheeple to be steered.  Is that what you want?

I don't image it it ever becoming that, and I think it's a tad melodramic to claim that having one off-topic board (that can be ignored) would lead to that.

I was thinking off-topic section means politics, religion, activism, war, conspiracies, other sensitive subjects and evil twists that can never be settled, and inevitably divides people.

And I bet many others understood the same, offtopic==alow_politics, that's why the mostly "no" in the poll results, and the proposed measures of no search indexing, post counts threshold visibility, enter here on your own risk, etc. so we won't be flooded by political bots.

I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.

That would be great to have, IMHO.  I'd love to see such projects. 

[pcprogrammer]

The total member count is a useless metric.  I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute).

I would not say that the total count is a complete useless metric, but you do have a point that there is less value in it. A large part of the members will not be to involved in the forum and as such will not have a strong opinion or interest in deciding on the current matter. It is a bit disappointing that the number of frequently active members is so low.

The key here: What you think.

I think you are WAAAAY off base - being dismissive of a clear indication of "No".  You seem to ignore the fact that there has been a very stressful exercise recently that has polarised many opinions and, if anything, people have put a lot more time into thinking about the question than ever before.

And indeed it is what I think, just the same as to what you think is what you think.

Further more if you read my posts you would know that I see benefits both ways of having the off topic section or not. I'm well aware of the recent events. Was part of the off topic stuff for a brief moment and participated in the discussion about it.

You have NO evidence to support the assertion: "without taking the time to really think about it all."

I can't support my assertion that members who voted did not take the time to really think about it all, I will give you that. I know you took the time for sure, because you present proper arguments for being against, but several of the posts here are simply stating "I don't like change". Whether they like it or not, things constantly change.

My preference is for a separate section to talk about "safe" non electronics related topics, and with "safe" I mean stuff that does not get people to upset. But I do also see it not working due to unwillingness of members to take their off topic stuff there. The whole argument from some that left, that having the TEA thread in a separate section that allows off topic would have avoided the whole ordeal is not valid, because it would still have been within the single thread that the off topic would have remained in causing the same trouble.

Sure I hope on a yes, but since Dave made this a democratic process, the majority has the say, even if it is the minority

The numbers are still rising, and yes the no is still ahead.

[wilfred]

The total member count is a useless metric.  I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute).  The number of voters IS a significant number - because it represents a significant number of members that:
 1. Are engaged here regularly enough to have been active since the poll's creation
 2. Have come across the poll
 3. Have had an opinion
 4. They have expressed that opinion by voting

From my observations, the number of members who recorded a vote in this one is better than a lot of polls.

Point 1. One does not need to be regularly engaged or active to vote. How is it known who voted? I don't see it.  Points 2,3,and 4 are self-evident. A member who does not have an opinion and is ignorant of the poll cannot express an opinion by voting.

Claiming this poll has greater participation than other polls is to damn it with faint praise.

I would argue participation would need to be greater than 10% of members who've posted 10 times or more to be considered significant. And it isn't, not even close. I'm taking the 86 number as accurate since I don't see who or how few have voted. If it gets to 500 I'll be impressed. But I still won't think it significant.

As far as I am concerned Dave can go ahead and create an off-topic section without polling at all. I almost wish he would just to get it over with.

[beanflying]

Interesting how these things go. Getting a bit of a brexit vibe in the setup. The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490) based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.

Also missing is a well laid out idea about what the vote is about, judging by the now changed title of the poll.

Seen some good points in the comments here, like the section not being visible to "guests", so it does not become a magnet to attract the morons out there in the world.

But a simple solution for the more established members is already there. The supporters lounge is a place where it is possible to create a thread to discuss what might be a bit sensitive.

Take from it what you like.

You made an arrogant ASSERTION of fact (in your opinion) with NO evidence that the other members who voted 'did not take time think about it'. Don't be dismissive of what thought did or did not go into clicking on a poll by others!

[Brumby]

Point 1. One does not need to be regularly engaged or active to vote. How is it known who voted? I don't see it.

Point 1 is also self-evident.

Note, I used the phrase "regularly enough".  Since the poll has not been up for 24 hours yet, if someone normally pops in every couple of days - or less frequently - they will not have had the chance to vote yet.

There was never any suggestion that a member need to be "regularly engaged or active" to vote.

[pcprogrammer]

You made an arrogant ASSERTION of fact (in your opinion) with NO evidence that the other members who voted 'did not take time think about it'. Don't be dismissive of what thought did or did not go into clicking on a poll by others!

And you just did the same by assuming otherwise and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.

[Brumby]

And you just did the same by assuming otherwise

All Beanflying did was state your assertion was not based on any evidence.  If you do have any hard evidence (and thoughtful musings are not) then we would be keen to hear it.

and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.

Again, he was just making it clear that what you said should not be accepted as fact.  Some people will take such casual comments and run with them as if they were fact.  Airing such unfounded opinions need to be challenged so as to avoid them gaining undeserved credibility.

[Ed.Kloonk]

As far as I am concerned Dave can go ahead and create an off-topic section without polling at all. I almost wish he would just to get it over with.

Exzachary. Dave needs to either shit or get off the pot. And no, that's not a video topic suggestion.


Edit: not even for the second channel.

[beanflying]

You made an arrogant ASSERTION of fact (in your opinion) with NO evidence that the other members who voted 'did not take time think about it'. Don't be dismissive of what thought did or did not go into clicking on a poll by others!

And you just did the same by assuming otherwise and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.

No not at all I was critical of YOUR initial post.

The poll is anonymous and unless you have magic clairvoyant skills you made up facts on what those people did or did not do to suit your assertions. Again you don't get to tell us or the responding members to the poll what considerations they made before pushing a button you simply have no idea about this!

[PlainName]

Ironically, it seems that if there was and off-topic section then the TEA thing would never have happened.

Absolutely, categorically, definitively, demonstrably and unequivocally incorrect.  IMHO

I should have added "according to some of them (the ones that left)". They have said and implied that they would have stayed if off-topic discussion was not policed.
I know there are other reasons as well.
Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246

If Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.

I think you're being played.

Not in a targeted way but in the excuses. I think most (complained about) off-topic posts were there simply because the poster couldn't be arsed to find somewhere else to write the stuff. Having a separate OT place will only work if people start threads there - IME, moving an OT post to it's own thread to continue often does nothing, because few follow and just prefer to remain where they were. We see that already in normal threads that drift, and someone starts a new thread to continue (an exception being a really contentious topic, but we're not talking contentious here, just OT).

Secondly, once admonished, there were likely egos and perceived ownership at play. "It's OUR thread, we wrote it", etc. Forgetting it's your forum, they are only here because this place existed. And, of course, there are the head egos who loved the thread because everyone else looked up to their pronouncements.

Those aren't out to make this a better place; they want it to be THEIR place and to get their pedestal back. They are happy where they are right now, and all you'll get for bending over backwards is more excuses and not action. You can see that already, so I am wondering why you are still bothering - if they wanted to make things right they would have done so already. No doubt more than a couple are sniggering behind their hands at the total upset caused in this forum, that THEY have managed to provoke. I would say not to fatten their egos any more. Despite their knowledge (and/or google-fu), if that's how they want to play it is better that they are where they are rather than here, working up to making more fuss.

[pcprogrammer]

And you just did the same by assuming otherwise

All Beanflying did was state your assertion was not based on any evidence.  If you do have any hard evidence (and thoughtful musings are not) then we would be keen to hear it.

and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.

Again, he was just making it clear that what you said should not be accepted as fact.  Some people will take such casual comments and run with them as if they were fact.  Airing such unfounded opinions need to be challenged so as to avoid them gaining undeserved credibility.

Which you did in a, to me, proper manner. And I responded to that hopefully the same, but that did not lead to a follow up from your side.

And I agree I should take better care when writing that things are my interpretation and never facts, unless I can provide some foundation for them.

But I can provide some evidence here, based on a single observation. Just look at the two posts RoGeorge made here. One early on, and one just above on this page. At first he was dead against, but now that the parameters surrounding what would be allowed have changed, he has also changed his view. That is what my second part of my post expressed, that the basic idea was not well laid out, but that did not get any response.

No it was just trip over the first line of what I wrote, that members where not thinking, because that is most like how it was perceived.

But this also shows that having discussions about real politics and religion are not possible without offense. People don't read properly anymore. They instantly see what they think it says, and I'm not free of that either, but at least try to take a step back before attacking someone.

[PlainName]

But this also shows that having discussions about real politics and religion are not possible without offense. People don't read properly anymore. They instantly see what they think it says

This is a good point. It's also worth noting that one is either completely and totally on one side or the other - there is no middle ground. Merely pointing out some mistake in an argument automatically puts one on the other side regardless of actual view and previous statements.

[tggzzz]

Interesting how these things go. Getting a bit of a brexit vibe in the setup. The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490) based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.

The "no comments" are supported by many solid well thought out statements, based on experiences here and elsewhere.

IMHO your statement is incorrect.

Let's not repeat old mistakes. There are so many new and interesting mistakes to be made.

[Bicurico]

I visit this forum every day several times. It is one of the tabs that open automatically when I start the web browser.

In the past years I have gained much knowledge from this forum, have seen many of my questions answered, have tried to help others with my little knowledge and even made some (virtual) friends.

EEVblog is an important part of my free time. While I could live without it, I would surely miss it.

With that said, I do take some care on what I post: I don't want to feed fired discussions, start flame wars or post unfit opinions. I expect other users to do the same, while understanding that people are different, come from different cultures, habits, educational levels, etc.

I like the moderation of the forum and except the banning of Würstchenhund, which I never quite understood (he does have some particular way of responding, I admit), everything is running fine in my opinion.

I did not understand the fuzz about the TEA, but I guess that is another story.

After explaining where I am, here is my opinion: I don't see any need for an off-topic section!

Everything reasonable can be discussed from a technical point of view and the remaining subjects (religion, believes, etc.) should not be discussed here, as they are subjective matters.

Want to post about cooking? Go to a cooking forum or discuss the technical aspect of it here: which thermal camera would be best to measure the temperature of the cheese in a cordon blue...

Adding an off-topic section is, in my opinion totally uncessary. What will be discussed there? Politics, war, religion, relationships, health? There are better forums to do that.

But it would not bother me if the section is created - I just think it will add noise and problems, while serving no particular purpose.

Regarding off-topic posts in a technical thread: I have no problem with that. It is part of any conversation. The off-topic bit might broaden the picture, even explain some approaches or just make the thread easier to read (humorous). I never felt that this was a problem at EEVblog.

Regards,
Vitor

[tautech]

What do all the moderators think ?

Everyday there is lively debate by experienced members that already know the limits to which they can post yet respect one another and this forum so not to be offended and possibly gain another's POV that they may previously not have considered.
Such is the "Gas Armageddon" thread that moderators have already spent some time examining that everybody is playing nice.
Technically quite OT and bordering on political yet revealing the bigger picture as info comes from many with a 'stake in the pie' yet IMO the thread has not fully fleshed out the current world state of affairs and really followed the money. 

To loosen the OT reins will certainly promote more similar discussion which if by adults is educational and thought provoking where if we all want to grow and understand one another should not be resisted as if it is how we learn to properly express ourselves and in a civil manner that any of us might need to when dealing with authority.....you might say that is for the educational services however unless you haven't noticed no Gubbermint wants their citizens to be too capable for fear they might challenge them !

This is the type of water cooler/bar chat we would expect along with the many fine examples of quality MSM reporting we are consistently fed of which anyone that challenges is publicly accused of being misinformed. 

One finds some guidance and comfort from the ramblings of the octogenarian Kiwi property magnate Sir Bob Jones:
https://nopunchespulled.com/
/2c

Dave, a running summary in the OP of where your head currently is would be useful to readers.

[tautech]

I like the moderation of the forum and except the banning of Würstchenhund, .............

From another time when our moderating Solomon's didn't get it right and was rightly appealed by the membership some while later to have Würstchenhund's membership reinstated.

But as has been already mentioned other valuable members also have been lost, some were discussed in now locked and/or unpinned Moderator Report threads where issues were hoped to be properly fleshed out in the Supporters board away from the full glare of the forum.

[EEVblog]

Adding an off-topic section is, in my opinion totally uncessary. What will be discussed there? Politics, war, religion, relationships, health? There are better forums to do that.

I already gave a suggestion, an Off Topics Projects section. And I linked to another post from Ian.M who made a good case for a dedicated Aeronautics section, and gave a list of a ton of thread already on the topic.

[EEVblog]

Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246

If Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.

I think you're being played.

I know that.

Those aren't out to make this a better place; they want it to be THEIR place and to get their pedestal back. They are happy where they are right now, and all you'll get for bending over backwards is more excuses and not action. You can see that already, so I am wondering why you are still bothering - if they wanted to make things right they would have done so already.

I know that also.
For those that think this is another attempt to lure those that left back, it's not, I know they are gone and I don't expect them to come back.
This actually came about because of a private moderator discussion that made me rethink what might be good for the forum. And by "good for the forum" I mean keeping people here for longer enjoying being here and talking about stuff. The "community" aspect of it so to speak.
The off-topic thing is one that comes up every few years naturally, this isn't the first discussion and poll on it.

[AVGresponding]

I think you're being played.

Not in a targeted way but in the excuses. I think most (complained about) off-topic posts were there simply because the poster couldn't be arsed to find somewhere else to write the stuff. Having a separate OT place will only work if people start threads there - IME, moving an OT post to it's own thread to continue often does nothing, because few follow and just prefer to remain where they were. We see that already in normal threads that drift, and someone starts a new thread to continue (an exception being a really contentious topic, but we're not talking contentious here, just OT).

Secondly, once admonished, there were likely egos and perceived ownership at play. "It's OUR thread, we wrote it", etc. Forgetting it's your forum, they are only here because this place existed. And, of course, there are the head egos who loved the thread because everyone else looked up to their pronouncements.

Those aren't out to make this a better place; they want it to be THEIR place and to get their pedestal back. They are happy where they are right now, and all you'll get for bending over backwards is more excuses and not action. You can see that already, so I am wondering why you are still bothering - if they wanted to make things right they would have done so already. No doubt more than a couple are sniggering behind their hands at the total upset caused in this forum, that THEY have managed to provoke. I would say not to fatten their egos any more. Despite their knowledge (and/or google-fu), if that's how they want to play it is better that they are where they are rather than here, working up to making more fuss.

In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave, and your ill-informed attempts to ascribe such base and juvenile motivations are quite far from the mark.

[strawberry]

new platform "EEVBlog social"
90% on topic is reasonable efficiency

[PlainName]

In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave

No-one 'had' to leave. Everyone that did, chose to do so.

[SiliconWizard]

At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.

I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
THANKS this post if you agree.

That kind of section would be cool indeed. (Heck, there is even a cooking section, so this one would definitely have its place.)
Now I think similar ideas have already emerged in the past and never really caught on, but who knows. I'm for it.

Now a general off-topic section, nope. Mostly saying it both for the forum and for you. I think that would become a rabbit hole quickly and would require a lot of moderation time and yield more frustration in the end for users than good. But I think that's kinda the general opinion anyway, so.