It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
If there was as off-topic section then it could be hidden from Newbies and Contributor categories, and only shows up to Regular Contributors with 50 posts or more.
My personal opinion is that such a category is not a good idea for Newbies at the very least.
The moderation here is usually very good.It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
It has to be really extreme to get banned from here for just off-topic posting. But yeah, I can see why people would be worried.
In this case off-topic thread started elsewhere in the forum could simply be moved to the new section instead of deleted as sometimes happens.
Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.
Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge
Xenforo fanboy alert! ;D
Yes, I like Xenforo, and if the forum software ever changed that would be my first choice.
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.
I get that EEVblog started with humble beginnings but it has grown to be much more.
I'm in two minds... a completely off-topic forum can work well as long as it's implemented properly (what that looks like should be up for discussion). However, if you do choose to venture into that area, users need to be prepared to be offended, insulted etc... etc... Short of filtering for spam and obvious trolls, I don't see that it's our job to be moderating what people say in that kind of area. I think the rules need to be clear. Basically, apply the "pub test" (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pub%20Test).
On the other hand I'm mindful of this forum becoming like Whirlpool (Whingepool), which is an over-moderated mess of conflicting opinions and people with sand in their vagina. Even between the site owner and the long list of moderators, they can't keep their shit together. EEVblog should never be allowed to become that... never in a million years.
Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge
Xenforo fanboy alert! ;D
Yes, I like Xenforo, and if the forum software ever changed that would be my first choice.
Well.... is it time to discuss that too? There are so many aspects of SMF that I hate (as both a moderator and a user). Or is that biting off more than we can chew at the moment?
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).
An off-topic section might even make the rest fo the forum better and more focussed? :-//
Poor Geoff.
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).
From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).
From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.
Poor Geoff.I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.
Poor Geoff.I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.
My shout. Name the pub.
From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.
https://www.bootleggerbar.com.au (https://www.bootleggerbar.com.au)My shout. Name the pub.Poor Geoff.I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.
You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).
From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.
It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.
That's always been my fear, but as the years have rolled on I've been seeing that happen more and more anyway, it doesn't seem to take much if any off-topic to trigger a fued.
However, if you do choose to venture into that area, users need to be prepared to be offended, insulted etc...
If this is in response to the recent "difficulties" then I don't think it's really relevant.
...
NO amount of shuffling deck chairs is going to do anything that will avert such issues in the future.
...
If this is just to ask because it seemed like a reasonable time to ask, then I ask: "What do you intend to achieve with such a change?"
b) potentially create greater animosity between users as a result of personal conflicts. Although the longer the forum has gone, the more I see this happens with on-topic posts anyway ;D
All comments appreciated. Thanks.
But if you suddenly introduce politics in a sports bar you'll get bar fights and stabbings every night.
There have already been otherwise intelligent, interesting and helpful members that are not here because of this, such as blueskull. I'm not advocating much stricter control or moderation, but making even a specific area 'wide open' is likely to significantly change the overall character of the forum.OFFTOPIC
Then again there are also those that like to bait people into such behaviour. It takes two to tango.From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.
It's always based on a consistent pattern of behaviour, and usually multiple user reports over a long period of time, and no willingness to stop.
...The result after five years was quite devastating....
Yes, I think the bigger the forum gets, the more time people will tend to spend on here, and the more they will feel it kinda like an online "home" rather then just some place they talk electronics. Like the water cooler at work.
dominate the "unread posts since last visit" list and could potentially put off newbies who joins and just see a list of gun and religious debates at the top of the list.^THIS
I'm a heavy user of another technical forum, and it has "anything goes" sections, including one devoted to politics. Although discussions are often heated these sections (especially politics), I've never noticed anyone being less than civil to others in the technical sections, even those they've had knockdown, drag out arguments with in the political section--they seem to leave any animosity behind in the off-topic sections.
Caveat: this forum isn't anonymous--people don't use made-up names--they use callsigns, and callsigns can be looked up in databases and resolved to real names and addresses.
If general discussion topics are allowed then I think they should be semi-concealed in the same manner as the Supporters Lounge, that way they will not show up in Google searches or pollute the Recent Posts table on the landing page for those not logged in. ie: Guests.
It also means that those who use this new section are more likely to be established members who already know the forum rules and routines, they can lead by example and call out those who cross the line. If you want to read the gossip then you need to sign up and log in, if you are just here for the waffle then go to the cooking section. :P
EEVblog will become yet another no-identity swamp of sheeple to be steered. Is that what you want?
Most probably an off-topic section will split the community even further, making others to live, either one by one, or in groups (to make their own forums someplace else), similar with what just happened after the TEA moderation incident only a few days ago.
If this is just to ask because it seemed like a reasonable time to ask, then I ask: "What do you intend to achieve with such a change?". I have a feeling the answer will circle back to my first point above.
QuoteBut if you suddenly introduce politics in a sports bar you'll get bar fights and stabbings every night.
Once again I am asking how come 'off topic' means 'political fighting'. There are other topics besides electronics and politics. You can certainly have an off-topic section and still mandate no politics (or the other stuff that quickly degenerates into a bunfight). You can even allow all those and still step in when it gets nasty.
I haven't marked the poll because I don't understand what's being asked. I thought it meant 'we can talk about random stuff, like painting walls and how to stop slugs eating the rhubard', but the way everyone is going on it means 'completely hands-off, moderators will be missing in action and you WILL be insulted enough to want to leave'.
So maybe someone can be clear about what this OT thing will actually be, and then we can vote from the position of knowledge.
If general discussion topics are allowed then I think they should be semi-concealed in the same manner as the Supporters Lounge, that way they will not show up in Google searches or pollute the Recent Posts table on the landing page for those not logged in. ie: Guests.
It also probably shouldn't show up in the "global" unread posts/new posts count.
Ironically, it seems that if there was and off-topic section then the TEA thing would never have happened.
Regarding the issue in hand, from what I see in terms of offtopic (and I'm also one that sometimes fall in such) normally it tends to go to 3 or 4 posts and then tones downThis is exactly how things have run in the TEA thread for years - and I don't think there were any major reactions to that happening. I know I glanced at that stuff and just skipped along to the next interesting bit. It seems the TEA thread is settling down to continue as it did before - and that is a good thing.
It is unfortunate we have had some members move on - but I would welcome them back if the OT in specific threads was down in the noise floor - not at +120dB.
As I mentioned above, there probably should be another poll option for "OT is fine, but keep the same hot-button topic ban list".
You are right, off-topic doesn't have to mean free-for-all.
We literally already have an entire off-topic section here called Cooking.
Quotedominate the "unread posts since last visit" list and could potentially put off newbies who joins and just see a list of gun and religious debates at the top of the list.^THIS
Ironically, it seems that if there was and off-topic section then the TEA thing would never have happened.
Absolutely, categorically, definitively, demonstrably and unequivocally incorrect. IMHO
If Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.
I should have added "according to some of them (the ones that left)". They have said and implied that they would have stayed if off-topic discussion was not policed.
I know there are other reasons as well.
Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246)QuoteIf Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.
At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.
We also did this along similar lines 18 months ago https://www.eevblog.com/forum/news/new-off-topic-hobbies-section/msg3438190/#msg3438190 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/news/new-off-topic-hobbies-section/msg3438190/#msg3438190)
An off-topic section might even make the rest fo the forum better and more focussed? :-//
The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490)The total member count is a useless metric. I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute). The number of voters IS a significant number - because it represents a significant number of members that:
based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.The key here: What you think.
EEVblog will become yet another no-identity swamp of sheeple to be steered. Is that what you want?
I don't image it it ever becoming that, and I think it's a tad melodramic to claim that having one off-topic board (that can be ignored) would lead to that.
I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
The total member count is a useless metric. I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute).
The key here: What you think.
I think you are WAAAAY off base - being dismissive of a clear indication of "No". You seem to ignore the fact that there has been a very stressful exercise recently that has polarised many opinions and, if anything, people have put a lot more time into thinking about the question than ever before.
You have NO evidence to support the assertion: "without taking the time to really think about it all."
The total member count is a useless metric. I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute). The number of voters IS a significant number - because it represents a significant number of members that:
1. Are engaged here regularly enough to have been active since the poll's creation
2. Have come across the poll
3. Have had an opinion
4. They have expressed that opinion by voting
From my observations, the number of members who recorded a vote in this one is better than a lot of polls.
Interesting how these things go. Getting a bit of a brexit vibe in the setup. The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490) based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.
Also missing is a well laid out idea about what the vote is about, judging by the now changed title of the poll.
Seen some good points in the comments here, like the section not being visible to "guests", so it does not become a magnet to attract the morons out there in the world.
But a simple solution for the more established members is already there. The supporters lounge is a place where it is possible to create a thread to discuss what might be a bit sensitive.
Take from it what you like.
Point 1. One does not need to be regularly engaged or active to vote. How is it known who voted? I don't see it.Point 1 is also self-evident.
You made an arrogant ASSERTION of fact (in your opinion) with NO evidence that the other members who voted 'did not take time think about it'. Don't be dismissive of what thought did or did not go into clicking on a poll by others!
And you just did the same by assuming otherwiseAll Beanflying did was state your assertion was not based on any evidence. If you do have any hard evidence (and thoughtful musings are not) then we would be keen to hear it.
and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.Again, he was just making it clear that what you said should not be accepted as fact. Some people will take such casual comments and run with them as if they were fact. Airing such unfounded opinions need to be challenged so as to avoid them gaining undeserved credibility.
As far as I am concerned Dave can go ahead and create an off-topic section without polling at all. I almost wish he would just to get it over with.
You made an arrogant ASSERTION of fact (in your opinion) with NO evidence that the other members who voted 'did not take time think about it'. Don't be dismissive of what thought did or did not go into clicking on a poll by others!
And you just did the same by assuming otherwise and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.
Ironically, it seems that if there was and off-topic section then the TEA thing would never have happened.
Absolutely, categorically, definitively, demonstrably and unequivocally incorrect. IMHO
I should have added "according to some of them (the ones that left)". They have said and implied that they would have stayed if off-topic discussion was not policed.
I know there are other reasons as well.
Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246)QuoteIf Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.
And you just did the same by assuming otherwiseAll Beanflying did was state your assertion was not based on any evidence. If you do have any hard evidence (and thoughtful musings are not) then we would be keen to hear it.Quoteand feeling the need to defend others from my statement.Again, he was just making it clear that what you said should not be accepted as fact. Some people will take such casual comments and run with them as if they were fact. Airing such unfounded opinions need to be challenged so as to avoid them gaining undeserved credibility.
But this also shows that having discussions about real politics and religion are not possible without offense. People don't read properly anymore. They instantly see what they think it says
Interesting how these things go. Getting a bit of a brexit vibe in the setup. The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490) based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.
I like the moderation of the forum and except the banning of Würstchenhund, .............From another time when our moderating Solomon's didn't get it right and was rightly appealed by the membership some while later to have Würstchenhund's membership reinstated.
Adding an off-topic section is, in my opinion totally uncessary. What will be discussed there? Politics, war, religion, relationships, health? There are better forums to do that.
Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246)QuoteIf Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.
I think you're being played.
Those aren't out to make this a better place; they want it to be THEIR place and to get their pedestal back. They are happy where they are right now, and all you'll get for bending over backwards is more excuses and not action. You can see that already, so I am wondering why you are still bothering - if they wanted to make things right they would have done so already.
I think you're being played.
Not in a targeted way but in the excuses. I think most (complained about) off-topic posts were there simply because the poster couldn't be arsed to find somewhere else to write the stuff. Having a separate OT place will only work if people start threads there - IME, moving an OT post to it's own thread to continue often does nothing, because few follow and just prefer to remain where they were. We see that already in normal threads that drift, and someone starts a new thread to continue (an exception being a really contentious topic, but we're not talking contentious here, just OT).
Secondly, once admonished, there were likely egos and perceived ownership at play. "It's OUR thread, we wrote it", etc. Forgetting it's your forum, they are only here because this place existed. And, of course, there are the head egos who loved the thread because everyone else looked up to their pronouncements.
Those aren't out to make this a better place; they want it to be THEIR place and to get their pedestal back. They are happy where they are right now, and all you'll get for bending over backwards is more excuses and not action. You can see that already, so I am wondering why you are still bothering - if they wanted to make things right they would have done so already. No doubt more than a couple are sniggering behind their hands at the total upset caused in this forum, that THEY have managed to provoke. I would say not to fatten their egos any more. Despite their knowledge (and/or google-fu), if that's how they want to play it is better that they are where they are rather than here, working up to making more fuss.
In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave
At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.
I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
THANKS this post if you agree.
At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.
I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
THANKS this post if you agree.
That kind of section would be cool indeed. (Heck, there is even a cooking section, so this one would definitely have its place.)
Now I think similar ideas have already emerged in the past and never really caught on, but who knows. I'm for it.
In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave, and your ill-informed attempts to ascribe such base and juvenile motivations are quite far from the mark.
At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.
I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
THANKS this post if you agree.
That kind of section would be cool indeed. (Heck, there is even a cooking section, so this one would definitely have its place.)
Now I think similar ideas have already emerged in the past and never really caught on, but who knows. I'm for it.
If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.
In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave, and your ill-informed attempts to ascribe such base and juvenile motivations are quite far from the mark.
If everyone was unhappy to leave, why did not one of them contact me and alert me to what was happening (I literally didn't know) and ask me if there was anything I could do to help the situation?
Seriously, not one person contacted me about this whole thing.
If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.
If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.
If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.I'm not sure, possibly almost all threads of the 'General Technical Chat'? :)
If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.I'm not sure, possibly almost all threads of the 'General Technical Chat'? :)
Possibly, the question is "Which few technical threads do really belong to General Technical Chat"? :)
Not to mention the recent endless "diversity" discussion, which Dave deliberately kept open.
Edit: post a picture of your cat could be a candidate to be moved. Very nice thread about what some may call a hobby but nothing to do with electronics. :)
Edit: post a picture of your cat could be a candidate to be moved. Very nice thread about what some may call a hobby but nothing to do with electronics. :)
Whoa there, buster!
Cats have everything to do with electronics. Any bench not equipped with at least one cat can not really be called a true bench.
Sorry Ed, did not mean to upset you. I would say post a picture of your cat to prove your statement. I can't anymore, you know due to the wife's allergy. Still miss the buggers.
All I'm saying is that if you thought the TEA thread peeps were an angry mob, crossing the cat thread folks would cause the biggest internet shit fight the world has ever known.
But I was not attackingWe only see 'cats' and 'attacking' here, so I'm afraid... :box: :)
Which, as a side note, is far of on this forum when it comes to women versus men. 1:1015. How can that be. :-DD
Which, as a side note, is far of on this forum when it comes to women versus men. 1:1015. How can that be. :-DD
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
Not to mention the recent endless "diversity" discussion, which Dave deliberately kept open.
Which, as a side note, is far of on this forum when it comes to women versus men. 1:1015. How can that be. :-DD
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
I also wonder how it is determined, because you can also refrain from stating your gender. I have seen several members not mentioning it in their profile. So are the ratios better or even worse.It is very possible in this day and age just 2 choices of gender are insufficient !
I wasn't a supporter of adding cooking to the forum much as I contribute there as it is a strong interest of mine.
But do we need a Gardening, Bike, R/C, Car, Travel, Woodworking, Skateboarding, Surfing, Fishing, CAT...... threads or sections on an Electronics forum?
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
I'm pretty sure EEVBlog is 99.9% grumpy old men. Of course not all of them realize that...
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.
You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.
You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?
Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.
You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?
Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.
Are you, perchance, ascribing a level of truthfulness to my info despite knowing nothing whatsoever about me or that info? Isn't that irrelevant speculation?
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.
You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?
Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.
Are you, perchance, ascribing a level of truthfulness to my info despite knowing nothing whatsoever about me or that info? Isn't that irrelevant speculation?
As I said, it's a guess, and informed by how close I happen to know my forum name is to my real one. And yes, it is irrelevant speculation; I was however merely trying to clarify my position to you.
People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.
Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.
You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?
Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.
Are you, perchance, ascribing a level of truthfulness to my info despite knowing nothing whatsoever about me or that info? Isn't that irrelevant speculation?
As I said, it's a guess, and informed by how close I happen to know my forum name is to my real one. And yes, it is irrelevant speculation; I was however merely trying to clarify my position to you.
I wonder, then, why my informed guess was somehow worth making a song and dance about. The info posted cannot be trusted (a self-evident fact) so what you kicked up a fuss about was merely what the actual true to false ratio is. Pedantically, it doesn't matter: either it is reliable or it is not, and it is clearly not.
Having said that, I would agree that ratio of male to female would still be skewed heavily to male, but I wonder why you could not just point that out instead of trying to make out I was somehow fibbing, simply because your limited experience didn't allow for the possibility.
But keep in mind people are looking for a reasonable popular sub section to get sufficient attention.
QuoteBut keep in mind people are looking for a reasonable popular sub section to get sufficient attention.
That's a good point, but I would suggest that popularity isn't necessarily desirable for what is a side dish. If someone wants to follow a plumbing rewire (don't know the right term - not a plumber) they would probably hang out in a plumbing offshoot, but they are really here for the electronics. If you need eyeballs then surely a pukka plumbing forum would be a better place to look for them.
So I do believe General Technical chat should be renamed to Community chat ...
Community moderation is functional only when community is actually moderating.
This has not happened, what has happened has been something else.
My guess is that before TEA this place has not been a primary environment.
Important yes, but more like a some sort of a mental sanctuary outside of mostly everything else, so secondary at best.
Then TEA turned the thing upside down and community moderation failed.
Gladiator bubble and origami bubble must be moderated differently.
It should be clearly pointed out to you that quite recently the what is now General Technical Chat board was previously just General Chat as Dave changed the name of it and added Technical in an effort to get threads to remain ON Topic.So I do believe General Technical chat should be renamed to Community chat ...
I'm here because the EEVblog follows a core theme that is represented by the first word in its name: Electronics.
As such, any "general" discussions benefit the purpose of the forum if they are directed towards that area of discussion. Having it titled "General Technical Chat" provides such a framework. I want people to stop and think about whether their idea for a thread that isn't "technical" is really worth publishing here. I know I've pulled myself back from starting a few threads because it really wasn't going to benefit anyone who comes here looking for technical engagement.
Changing the title (and, hence the definition) to something less specific is basically saying "we don't care about electronics being the core reason for the EEVblog's existence, so have at it". The fact that we already have a number of threads that fall outside this framework is one that I would prefer to not get any worse.
Also you could have too many sub sections, and in many cases people would prefer to put it in General Technical chat to get the attention. As case in point this thread right here. Officially I would argue Dave should have put it in News/Suggestions/Help but few people are looking there.
So I do believe General Technical chat should be renamed to Community chat, maybe with some post count before members could gain access. And then hobbies and interests outside pure electronics/computers could go into one or more off-topic interests sections. But keep in mind people are looking for a reasonable popular sub section to get sufficient attention.
Also thinking that the possible new sections are for getting advice on non electronic related topics is, to my opinion, not correct. To me it is not about getting advice on something, but more a sharing of things I enjoy and others might enjoy that too. If I need advice on something that is not core on this forum I will use google. And when I do need advice on electronics related stuff, google is my first approach also.
Could a different tack in Moderation have changed the outcome? Possibly. However, it must be made quite clear that there has been very little need for "advanced" moderation skills on the EEVblog since it has been quite well behaved for quite a long time. The recent kerfuffle was quite unique and escalated quickly. No-one was prepared for it.
It should be clearly pointed out to you that quite recently the what is now General Technical Chat board was previously just General Chat as Dave changed the name of it and added Technical in an effort to get threads to remain ON Topic.Sorry if I gave that impression. I just want to support the name change that includes the word "Technical" for exactly the reason given.
Therefore what Zeyneb is asking for is no more than a return to how things were and not some step into the abyss as you seem to imply.
General Technical Chat was General Chat before the word Technical was inserted. But still you see some very tenuous topics started with flimsy justification as technical.
Could a different tack in Moderation have changed the outcome? Possibly. However, it must be made quite clear that there has been very little need for "advanced" moderation skills on the EEVblog since it has been quite well behaved for quite a long time. The recent kerfuffle was quite unique and escalated quickly. No-one was prepared for it.
The recent kerfuffle was quite unique and escalated quickly. No-one was prepared for it.
General Technical Chat was General Chat before the word Technical was inserted. But still you see some very tenuous topics started with flimsy justification as technical.
The idea was to have a suble reminder to try and keep new threads at least somewhat on-topic.
Reporting behind the scenes is something else and lurkers are not the community.
Mood of post is also very important, somebody have used a phrase usual suspects, what its plurality means, if that is many vs. many then I think the community has a problem.
Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker?
...it's about sharing other projects you are working on...
And there will be members who occasionally make a moderation report...
Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker?
Don't assume what I assume.
QuoteReporting behind the scenes is something else and lurkers are not the community.
Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker? Often, reporting is preferable to public calling out because it doesn't kick off a flame war and can be handled in the (forum's) preferred way.
Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker?
Don't assume what I assume.
I didn't; I went from what you wrote. If that isn't what you meant then I apologise for misinterpreting it, and perhaps you could make it clearer what you did mean.
Define lurker for us.
Define lurker for us.
Reading but not writing.
Do you have a bias towards the word?
General Technical Chat was General Chat before the word Technical was inserted. But still you see some very tenuous topics started with flimsy justification as technical.
The idea was to have a suble reminder to try and keep new threads at least somewhat on-topic.
No, was just wondering if you are aware of the fact that non registered readers can't report.
Registered members are part of the community, and you stated that lurkers are not the community. But I agree that they should not easily report something they don't like, and if they do the moderator can weigh this in when making a decision.
Ok, I understand now Dave and others would prefer to keep this titled General Technical Chat. And that is also the section where social, political, economic and humorous charged posts will go.
I think it is important to start the new Off Topic Projects section in a good way. And make it very clear to members to distinguish if their post should be in Off Topic Projects or General Technical Chat. You know, if Off Topic Projects doesn't really catch on the posts will end up in General Technical Chat.
So how about this: Invite members to prepare some appealing/interesting posts for the new Off Topic Projects section, show them to Dave to determine Yes, this is what I meant for the new section. And when the new section is created launch those posts all at once.
Maybe Dave can already share the intended description text for Off Topic Projects. You know, the text below the section headers.
Also maybe Dave could recruit some more moderators, maybe to start only with the authority to move posts in the right sections.
From the point of view of a forum member, when you open a forum section you skim through the post titles and judge if your intended post will match the relevance/tone/culture of the section, if that is the case and the section has recent activity you'll get the confidence your post will be received well and get responses.
Say it out loud or be silent but stop mumbling
QuoteSay it out loud or be silent but stop mumbling
I think that's the wrong approach. Sure, for trivial stuff it might be fine, but for stuff that needs moderating there are problems:
1. Perhaps the complaint isn't valid (misunderstood rules or something). If that had been brought up in public there would be arguments, probably pedantic and leading off on tangents to other arguments). Afterwards, the complainer would have his card marked by some subset of participants. On the other hand, a non-public complaint can be settled by a quiet word from the mod setting out why it's not a valid complaint.
2. Perhaps the complaint is valid. Bring it up in public and... well, repeat of 1. I am sure. A non-public complaint can see the mod have a quiet word with the transgressor, and it's more likely to be settled then because there would be no big ego losing face as there would be in public.
We used to get pop-up single-post vendors flogging stuff, and a following trail of posts telling them to push off or questioning what they're about, etc. But we don't get that now because instead of whining people hit the compaint button and a mod just goes and deals with it, no fuss. Sometimes it's a pukka post and the mod leaves it, and the difference is there isn't a long thread of complaints to go with it.
...
deceitful to "go behind someone's" back, and "complain to mummy"
As a native speaker of American English (the source of the film Casablanca) I feel that assigning a meaning of returning to the status quo to the phrase "the usual suspects" goes a bit far. I interpreted this, and assume a great many others interpreted it similarly, to simply mean that there are a group of people known or suspected by many to be prone to a certain behavior. The extra meaning extracted from the film requires the entire context of usage from the film (plot, speaker, situation).
A return to the status quo may be the right answer in this case. Or special treatment of the "usual subjects". Or something else. I am not wise enough to give a definitive answer here. Dave obviously feels somewhat similarly, hence the question posed in this thread.
Quote from: tggzzz...
You're essentially saying to get rid of the report button.
Quotedeceitful to "go behind someone's" back, and "complain to mummy"
It can be disrespectful to call out someone in public. Perhaps if they sent a PM all this fuss wouldn't be necessary, but people don't. They just mouth off (for a good example, your derogatory comment designed to stir up emotion, and we're not even arguing about a complaint) and then it will progress to name calling and the like.
There seems to be an assumption that if someone has a complaint then saying it in public with either get everyone telling the perp to play the game or telling the complainer they are wrong. But what's missed here is that there tend to be a few mouthy people and the rest - the majority - don't immediately pipe up. It can also be hard for someone to say they agree with something when the noisy section are shouting it down - few want to be the only one to put their head above the parapet, and you never know if there are actually many such because no-one wants to be the first.
I fully accept that there are people that are just fine stating their opinion in front of everyone, and would do so even if it's an unpopular opinion. But there are just as many, if not more, that are not comfortable doing that, and I think it's wrong not to accommodate them (and insinuate the need to hold mummy's hand or whatever).
It is not wrong to allow people to state their opinions in private; it is wrong to act on them without due process, which in the cause of justice must include some transparency.
QuoteIt is not wrong to allow people to state their opinions in private; it is wrong to act on them without due process, which in the cause of justice must include some transparency.
Where is that being suggested? Don't you think the mods will take a look and consider if there is substance or not before doing anything (or not doing anything)?
And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.
Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.
I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.
I wonder if a change of the original post [...] can help in making a more founded decision.
I wonder if a change of the original post [...] can help in making a more founded decision.
I think this would also need a new poll (and hence a new thread?). Can't change the poll question while keeping the old answer counts which referred to a different question. I doubt that all voters will be checking back regularly and amending their vote to answer the updated question.
I wonder if a change of the original post [...] can help in making a more founded decision.
I think this would also need a new poll (and hence a new thread?). Can't change the poll question while keeping the old answer counts which referred to a different question. I doubt that all voters will be checking back regularly and amending their vote to answer the updated question.
Yeah, I agree. A poll where Dave suggests the Off-Topic Project section a show and tell for things like car/home renovation. Where no politics, religion and weaponry is allowed.
EDIT: I do actually think the "What did you buy today? Post your latest purchase!" thread is a good example for the Off-Topic Project section.
QuoteSay it out loud or be silent but stop mumblingI think that's the wrong approach.
1. I as a moderator would mark that complainer and moderate that subset if it appears.
2. I as a moderator would kick a fragile public butt of that big ego, if necessary.
I was thinking of what sections would be nice to have next to cooking. To allow for something like a "coworker harassing you" or "how to start your own company" maybe a "Life advice" section.I suggest a section for suggestions.
Well that new section might soon be closed again. Just read "Emptiness" and you will see.
The name of the other one indicated a possible "constitution", but upon reading the thread you would see that the name is ill chosen and "rules of conduct" might be better. There is good behavior advice in it, if I say so myself.
And why is that section left almost empty, just because the current TEA thread users are happy where it is now.
I guess that the cooking section was also frowned upon at first and now it has reasonable activity, so why not other sections for interests besides electronics.
1. I as a moderator would mark that complainer and moderate that subset if it appears.
2. I as a moderator would kick a fragile public butt of that big ego, if necessary.
I as a reader cannot understand either of those two sentences. Could you explain please? I think some meaning was lost as you tried for a clever and colorful wording.
What do you mean by "mark" the complainer, and what "subset" are yo referring to? Whose butt and ego are you talking about -- the ones of a person who made a questionable post, or of a person who reported a post, or yet someone else's?
Well that new section might soon be closed again. Just read "Emptiness" and you will see.
The name of the other one indicated a possible "constitution", but upon reading the thread you would see that the name is ill chosen and "rules of conduct" might be better. There is good behavior advice in it, if I say so myself.
And why is that section left almost empty, just because the current TEA thread users are happy where it is now.
I guess that the cooking section was also frowned upon at first and now it has reasonable activity, so why not other sections for interests besides electronics.
Or because they are unaware of its existence. I only found it by chance. You're assuming all current TEAnonymous users are happy with it where it is; you are mistaken.
Quote from: tggzzz...
You're essentially saying to get rid of the report button.
And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.
Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.
I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.
I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".
When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.So true.
And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.
Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.
I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.
I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".
Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.
When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.
And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.
Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.
I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.
I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".
Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.
When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.
Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.
If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.
Since everything is said at least seven times is it time for conclusion.Careful now, that might imply it's time for commonsense to be applied, something that's not that common. :-DD
Since everything is said at least seven times is it time for conclusion.
...
Maybe all that is needed is just a bit of shuffling.
...
New hierarchy can then go so that too light stuff from everywhere can be splitted to General.
And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.
Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.
I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.
I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".
Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.
When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.
Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.
If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.
That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.
The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.
Maintenance Hierarchy would also enable all kind of niche sections, like Hanging Ministers.
Possible hot section would be Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues.
A couple hours, (or several), viewing the posts that stray OFF-TOPIC, in 'Energy Armageddon', it just seems like a pile of partial excursions into distractions, partial personal slurs, indecipherable sarcasm, and almost no electronic supply-chain.Yet it's still civil with punch and counter punch thrown, just as any good debate should be.
I believe that's a mess, for the moderators, (and that's only my posts...lol). Moderators, I bet, don't really want to wade into a big mass of upset, slandering or 'partial' slanders...whatever that is. Then, they (Moderators) have to face all manner of criticism, like:
"I tried to mention the evil, of the fat slobs, in Lower Slabikia, and the Mods were UNFAIR, and deleted my rants..." ...(sigh).
That's a lot of work, sorting thru all those non-topic posts. And, I've been guilty of doing that, trying the limits, boundaries of what can be posted.
I'd say also that there community moderation failed.
Obviously no completely, but pretty much too slow it was.
.......
.......
I just looked at the thread you mentioned and this behavior can be seen a lot on this forum. The more established members do like their technical debates, without considering what the original poster needs to know.
At some point BillyO (message #45 and #74) tries to steer things a bit, but it does not help. Maybe because he is also a newbie? (36 posts) And this seems to be weighed on this forum, when looking at the recent discussions we had about for example the TEA thread.
But moderation on something like this is difficult. There is no real off topic drift, because it is all about the needed sample rate and bandwidth to reproduce a signal on a scope screen. So even for a more involved moderator it would be difficult to asses what is needed in this situation.
There is no 100% foolproof solution for the case at hand, and with that I mean the whole forum of course.
I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.
I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.
I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.
I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.
Was there something wrong with that thread that I missed? :-//
But moderation on something like this is difficult.
Moderation on something like that is not "difficult", it is irrelevant.
I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.
I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.
Was there something wrong with that thread that I missed? :-//
Moderation on something like that is not "difficult", it is irrelevant.
I don't understand what exactly in it is irrelevant.
At least participants experience of the thread is relevant, all of them.
Shy voices must be guided, maybe guarded.
Grumpy old men are not exactly a disappearing resource but their electronics can be.
More vocal folks will also always dominate, difference is only in contents.
Community moderation will work indefinitely if community stays homogeneous enough.
And fails instantly when heterogeneous goes over the tipping point, simply because different groups have so different demands.
Bringing up stackexchange indicates that your moderator is preventing things.
My moderator is maintaining things.
And Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues of Maintenance Hierarchy would handle nit pickers.
Community moderation of heterogeneous community can still work but then its homogeneous parts must be, at least partially separated.
If Other Communities here get Cars section it can finally and quite easily dominate the traffic of the whole place but would that be a bad thing.
Forums can also split under the same roof, so Dave would still benefit, I guess.
And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.
Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.
I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.
I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".
Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.
When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.
Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.
If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.
That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.
The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.
And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.
Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.
I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.
I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".
Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.
When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.
Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.
If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.
That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.
The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.
So, no rules is bad, inflexible rules is bad, quite obviously because they are extremes. Therefore something in the middle is good. Herein lies the problem. Everyone in the world will have a position somewhere between those two extremes (and I suppose there are a few nutters who are on the actual extremes), but everyone will have a different position. So, whose view do we accept as a nominal "norm" to which we can all abide? Yours, I suppose?