IMPORTANT POLL: Should there be an off-topic section?

[EEVblog]

I believe this forum poll has been run several times in the past, and the result has been that the majority didn't want an "off-topic" lounge.
But I think it's time to re-evaluate it.

The current forum rules enourage on-topic discussion, and whilst it's natural for topics to drift off-topic, when a thread gets reported for it, moderators generally need to step in.
If anything changes, this would of course remain the rule for the electronics forum in general.

The reasons for not having an off-topic section in the past have been that it would:
a) dominate the "unread posts since last visit" list and could potentially put off newbies who joins and just see a list of gun and religious debates at the top of the list.
b) potentially create greater animosity between users as a result of personal conflicts. Although the longer the forum has gone, the more I see this happens with on-topic posts anyway 

I can now see potential value in an off-topic section for those that use the forum as a "home" so to speak, and naturally want to discuss other stuff with their friends in the one location. Rather than forcing them elsewhere to do that. This could of course be good for the forum in terms of greater engagement amoung users, but it could also backfire as per b) above.

As for a) above. If there was as off-topic section then it could be hidden from Newbies and Contributor, and only shows up to Regular Contributors with 50 posts or more. That's an easy option in the SMF forum software, just like the Supporters Lounge becomes visible once you hit 1000 posts.  believe a forum poll has been run several times in the past, and the result has been that the majority didn't want an "off-topic" lounge. But I'm happy to run such a poll again if anyone thinks it's a good idea.
The reasons for not having an off-topic section have been that it would
a) dominate the "unread posts since last visit" list and could potentially put off newbies who joins and just see a list of gun and religious debates at the top of the list.
b) potentially create greater animosity between users as a result of conflicts. Although the longer the forum has gone, the more I see this happens with on-topic posts too.

I can now see potential value in an off-topic section for those that use the forum as a "home" so to speak, and naturally want to discuss other stuff they are interested in or are passionate about with their online friends in the one location. Rather than forcing them elsewhere to do that.
Heck, it might even make the forum a more community oriented space? 

If there was as off-topic section then it could be hidden from Newbies and Contributor categories, and only shows up to Regular Contributors with 50 posts or more.
My personal opinion is that such a category is not a good idea for Newbies at the very least.

Such a section could require it's own moderator to keep things in line, a trusted "local" who frequents the thread. I probably wouldn't hang out there myself, and it's likely the other current moderators wouldn't frequent it either. So would have to moderate based on report requests.
The No Personal Attacks rule would still be in force.

FYI, those who don't like it can always use the Ignore Topics thread and they'll never see notification from an off-topic section. This feature currently exists BTW for any section of the forum.

All comments appreciated. Thanks.

[tszaboo]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

[EEVblog]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

It has to be really extreme to get banned from here for just off-topic posting. But yeah, I can see why people would be worried.
In this case off-topic thread started elsewhere in the forum could simply be moved to the new section instead of deleted as sometimes happens.

[Ed.Kloonk]

If there was as off-topic section then it could be hidden from Newbies and Contributor categories, and only shows up to Regular Contributors with 50 posts or more.
My personal opinion is that such a category is not a good idea for Newbies at the very least.

I support the idea.

[Jackster]

Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge

[Halcyon]

Australians are big on free-speech and I doubt Dave is any different.

I get that EEVblog started with humble beginnings but it has grown to be much more.

I'm in two minds... a completely off-topic forum can work well as long as it's implemented properly (what that looks like should be up for discussion). However, if you do choose to venture into that area, users need to be prepared to be offended, insulted etc... etc... Short of filtering for spam and obvious trolls, I don't see that it's our job to be moderating what people say in that kind of area. I think the rules need to be clear. Basically, apply the "pub test".

On the other hand I'm mindful of this forum becoming like Whirlpool (Whingepool), which is an over-moderated mess of conflicting opinions and people with sand in their vagina. Even between the site owner and the long list of moderators, they can't keep their shit together. EEVblog should never be allowed to become that... never in a million years.

For a "Completely off-topic" section, you're basically agreeing to delve into the deep, dark areas of people's minds across the world.... "No blame" policy applies. You were warned!

[tszaboo]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

It has to be really extreme to get banned from here for just off-topic posting. But yeah, I can see why people would be worried.
In this case off-topic thread started elsewhere in the forum could simply be moved to the new section instead of deleted as sometimes happens.

The moderation here is usually very good.
But I also know that moderators are people, they have good and bad days, or they would take people who participated in it, and give the boot for all.

[EEVblog]

Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge

Xenforo fanboy alert! 
Yes, I like Xenforo, and if the forum software ever changed that would be my first choice.

[nctnico]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.

[Halcyon]

Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge

Xenforo fanboy alert! 
Yes, I like Xenforo, and if the forum software ever changed that would be my first choice.

Well.... is it time to discuss that too? There are so many aspects of SMF that I hate (as both a moderator and a user). Or is that biting off more than we can chew at the moment?

[Halcyon]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).

[Ed.Kloonk]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.

Or it could be a great opportunity to help peeps with that kind of funk interact better. As suggested, it's only for active users so most of the quirks are near the surface already wouldn't you say?

I'd be interested to see a plan for what happens if someone does indeed fail the 'pub test'.

[EEVblog]

I get that EEVblog started with humble beginnings but it has grown to be much more.

Yes, I think the bigger the forum gets, the more time people will tend to spend on here, and the more they will feel it kinda like an online "home" rather then just some place they talk electronics. Like the water cooler at work.

I'm in two minds... a completely off-topic forum can work well as long as it's implemented properly (what that looks like should be up for discussion). However, if you do choose to venture into that area, users need to be prepared to be offended, insulted etc... etc... Short of filtering for spam and obvious trolls, I don't see that it's our job to be moderating what people say in that kind of area. I think the rules need to be clear. Basically, apply the "pub test".

Yes, I see the only basic rule being no personal attacks. I see no value in allowing that.
The existing rules already have the "you have no right NOT to be offended" part.
Obviously extreme stuff would not be allowed, like porn, graphic images, and absolute outright hatred and vitrol.
For all we know the section could become filled with boring office water cooler talk about flipping houses or something.

On the other hand I'm mindful of this forum becoming like Whirlpool (Whingepool), which is an over-moderated mess of conflicting opinions and people with sand in their vagina. Even between the site owner and the long list of moderators, they can't keep their shit together. EEVblog should never be allowed to become that... never in a million years.

I've heard Whirlpool being cited many times as a forum that was destroyed by moderation.
This forum has always had a pretty laid back approach to moderation, and I don't see that changing.
An off-topic section might even make the rest fo the forum better and more focussed? 

[Ed.Kloonk]

Xenforo allows you to ignore a category by default so it does not show up in Unread... Wink wink nudge nudge

Xenforo fanboy alert! 
Yes, I like Xenforo, and if the forum software ever changed that would be my first choice.

Well.... is it time to discuss that too? There are so many aspects of SMF that I hate (as both a moderator and a user). Or is that biting off more than we can chew at the moment?

 

Poor Geoff.

[EEVblog]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.

That's always been my fear, but as the years have rolled on I've been seeing that happen more and more anyway, it doesn't seem to take much if any off-topic to trigger a fued.

[HighVoltage]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

[Halcyon]

An off-topic section might even make the rest fo the forum better and more focussed? 

That's the goal.

Poor Geoff.

I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.

[Ed.Kloonk]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

Small things that, I've noticed nearly every time, they won't cease escalating when asked not to.

[Halcyon]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

Care to provide examples? Because I can't think of a single one. Keep in mind, what you guys see and what also happens in moderation reports and private messages can be completely different things.

[EEVblog]

Poor Geoff.

I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.

My shout. Name the pub.

[Halcyon]

Poor Geoff.

I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.

My shout. Name the pub.

https://www.bootleggerbar.com.au

[EEVblog]

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

It's always based on a consistent pattern of behaviour, and usually multiple user reports over a long period of time, and no willingness to stop.

[EEVblog]

Poor Geoff.

I shall take him out to dinner for many tasty meats.

My shout. Name the pub.

https://www.bootleggerbar.com.au

I'll charge the EV.

[Brumby]

If this is in response to the recent "difficulties" then I don't think it's really relevant.  The kerfuffle occurred because of the behaviour of a small section of the membership that escalated because of (IMO) a narcissistic and recalcitrant attitude.  There is some credibility in the criticism of Moderation efforts - but they would not have come to such a level if the membership involved had responded.

NO amount of shuffling deck chairs is going to do anything that will avert such issues in the future.

The only thing required is for every member to act with basic respect for others and an awareness of their own actions.  This has worked for many years - and will continue to do so

Personally, I find the concessions and provisions already given were unnecessary, but I see the value it has provided - by demonstrating that those who run the show are open to suggestions.


If this is just to ask because it seemed like a reasonable time to ask, then I ask: "What do you intend to achieve with such a change?".  I have a feeling the answer will circle back to my first point above.

[RoGeorge]

No Dave.  Don't do that, please!  Don't allow offtopic, political and other crap.
That will kill the electronics forum and the community.

Your forum is not growing, as Halcyon is claiming.  Quite contrary, it's shrinking.

There are way less interesting topics, visitors or posters than it used to be 3-5 years ago.  I know because I am visiting/reading/posting here many times daily, for years.  It used to be that the difference between first-last post in the "Most Recent" was 20 minutes, now it's about 2 hours during the EU daylight, and about 3 hours during the US daylight.  Often even more.

We have a nice community here exactly because we focus on electronics, science, engineering hobbies and passion.  We ignore the political rage, and the day to day realities that drives everybody crazy.

This forum, right now it's one of the last refuges, an oasis away from facebook/tweeter/tiktok/you name what.

Face it, this place will never be as big as the above mentioned platforms.  If you try to grow it like that you'll kill what EEVblog is today.  This forum will turn from a gem into yet another woke-fest, political-rage, whatever-trendy echo chamber of the bigger networks.  EEVblog will become yet another no-identity swamp of sheeple to be steered.  Is that what you want?

Most probably an off-topic section will split the community even further, making others to live, either one by one, or in groups (to make their own forums someplace else), similar with what just happened after the TEA moderation incident only a few days ago.

[joeqsmith]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

You wouldn't get banned. That is a decision that is not made lightly. We are all human, and sometimes we say things without thinking... or even it's well thought-out but controversial. To get banned, you basically have to be a shit human (or spammer).

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

I tend to agree.  When I've attempted to find out why someone was banned I can't.   I suspect they typically get into off-topic threads and talk politics, religion ... and their comments are scrubbed.   I don't follow these threads so what I see is their technical contributions.  Personally, I only see these bans further diluting the resource pool.  I suspect if you open the site up, these bans will become more common place.   

If current members are less interested in electronics and the goal is to expand or maintain, I see no other way around it than to make it more like other sites.  You may find this opens the doors for new sponsors as well.     

Maybe name the site that better describes the target audience you are trying to attract?  "GenBlog Generic Forum" 

[tggzzz]

It happened to me several times that I typed a post, and then deleted it, because it was off topic, or political, and I didn't want to leave it to chance whether I get banned. So I ended up deleting it. It would be good to talk to people here (like minded people) about those topics without the fear of the ban hammer.

IMHO what you describe is a good thing. EEVBlog is right on the good side of the edge between technical and not-so-technical topics. My fear is that allowing more non-technical threads is going to lead to people really taking it out on each other due to difference of opinion and being 'on the spectrum'.

That's always been my fear, but as the years have rolled on I've been seeing that happen more and more anyway, it doesn't seem to take much if any off-topic to trigger a fued.

IMNSHO, this forum strikes a good balance, thus does not need to change. I see no benefits to such a change, and potentially significant downsides. The recent " TEA contretemps" hasn't changed that.

When I want general stuff, there are plenty of other forums, all the way down to Farcebook.

When I'm not interested in a topic or some of the posts in it, I simply skip them. Not exactly rocket science!

Navigation is trivial due to the combination of "Show unread posts since last visit", "Show new replies to your posts" and "Mark posts read". Without those the forum would be unusable.

[HighVoltage]

Anything political or religious will always be the seed for problems.

Dave,
You have something very special here with a group people interested in electronics.
Why killing it with off-topic sections.
There are plenty of other places where people can discuss such topics.
I have been on many forums over the years and off-topic sections eventually killed the forum!

eevblog should stay clean and on focus with its center core, no need to change anything.

[pcprogrammer]

As with everything in life there are pro's and con's to this.

A separate section to allow the more involved members to do water cooler talk could ease the off topic drifts in other threads, but that does depend on the will of the members to move it to the new section as soon as a drift starts, and I fear such a discipline might be a to big a stretch.

Making it completely free of rules like no politics, religion and guns, and only leave don't offend others, feels like opening the door to huge cesspool. Even though I would not mind a good discussion on some of these topics, there will never be winners so to speak, because everybody has his deep set ideas about them, and not offending others will become almost impossible.

A better set of rules of conduct, like discussed in the new section opened for TEA might be of help to move off topic drifts into a new "EEVBlog cafe" section, but don't make it everything is allowed.

[PlainName]

However, if you do choose to venture into that area, users need to be prepared to be offended, insulted etc...

I'm not sure I follow why 'not electronics related' means 'free for all offensive' and/or complete non-moderation. Surely the participants should be as well behaved as they are in the electronics sections, it's just that whatever is discussed wouldn't have to included electronic stuff?

[tggzzz]

If this is in response to the recent "difficulties" then I don't think it's really relevant. 
...
NO amount of shuffling deck chairs is going to do anything that will avert such issues in the future.
...
If this is just to ask because it seemed like a reasonable time to ask, then I ask: "What do you intend to achieve with such a change?"

I agree with those points.

(Don't make inferences about the points I have omitted! )

[bdunham7]

b) potentially create greater animosity between users as a result of personal conflicts. Although the longer the forum has gone, the more I see this happens with on-topic posts anyway 
All comments appreciated. Thanks.

I think the potential to expose latent animosity that could be left undiscovered in a purely technical forum is a potential drawback.  It's already a bit of a hybrid as things veer off topic, but when moderation is required it is generally accepted as necessary because by the point mods step in the thread has usually gone so far off the rails that there is almost universal agreement that the thread should be locked. 

There have already been otherwise intelligent, interesting and helpful members that are not here because of this, such as blueskull.  I'm not advocating much stricter control or moderation, but making even a specific area 'wide open' is likely to significantly change the overall character of the forum. 

[AndyC_772]

I definitely would be in favour of some 'off topic' space. Personally I'm bored of the endless threads that boil down to "please tell me what cheap TE to buy even though I've no idea I want it for", or "please do my homework, I'm desperate". It's become dull and repetitive.

Right now, I see the EEVblog community as being like a sports bar. We all have a thing in common, and really do want to talk about that thing - at least some of the time.

Imagine, though, the bar staff coming along and saying to a group "Oi! This is a sports bar, you can't talk about cars / beer / DIY / whatever in here! If you want to talk about something other than sports, I'm going to have to ask you to leave".

It would be ridiculous. Absurd. People who get together over a shared love of one topic can, and do, want to talk to each other about something else occasionally. It's normal, healthy, and good for a community.

[RoGeorge]

We do talk cars and DIY already in our "sports bar" right now.  Pretty much everything techie is allowed.

But if you suddenly introduce politics in a sports bar you'll get bar fights and stabbings every night.

People will stop visiting and make the habit of going to a sports bar instead of a fight bar.  Others will go and make their own bar.  It's trivial to setup a forum hosting these days.  Building and maintaining a happy and alive community is the harder part.  We have that here.  Why splitting it?

Why burning our free time in sterile debates, and make each other's blood boil?

[Ian.M]

How about making "Cooking" a sub-section of a new forum: "Other Hobbies" and the moderators treading lightly in "Other Hobbies", but still enforcing the EEVblog forum rules with a modified rule 5, that still bans the most controversial or legally troublesome topics, but says something like:
 "5) This is a hobby forum, so try to stay on-topic. We understand that threads drift off-topic, but try not to start deliberately and grossly off-topic stuff.
...
Those who come to the EEVblog forums to mostly only contribute non-electronics related material are not welcome. There are other forum sites for that stuff, this is not one of them, so please try to maintain a balance between your contributions about other hobbies here and your electronics related contributions in other EEVblog forums."?

[Bud]

Once flood gates are open, there will be people coming to use the space for pushing their agendas. Not casual discussions but  deliberate abuse of the platform. Because, you know, why not, if the opportunity is screaming. The nutters that truly believe this helps their party, their community, their country, you name it. I can't help but think  some are here already.

[PlainName]

But if you suddenly introduce politics in a sports bar you'll get bar fights and stabbings every night.

Once again I am asking how come 'off topic' means 'political fighting'. There are other topics besides electronics and politics. You can certainly have an off-topic section and still mandate no politics (or the other stuff that quickly degenerates into a bunfight). You can even allow all those and still step in when it gets nasty.

I haven't marked the poll because I don't understand what's being asked. I thought it meant 'we can talk about random stuff, like painting walls and how to stop slugs eating the rhubard', but the way everyone is going on it means 'completely hands-off, moderators will be missing in action and you WILL be insulted enough to want to leave'.

So maybe someone can be clear about what this OT thing will actually be, and then we can vote from the position of knowledge.

[Black Phoenix]

There have already been otherwise intelligent, interesting and helpful members that are not here because of this, such as blueskull.  I'm not advocating much stricter control or moderation, but making even a specific area 'wide open' is likely to significantly change the overall character of the forum.

OFFTOPIC
The case of him is different. We are talking about threats to people in the forum and Dave itself, as his brand and sponsors.

Plus he was tons of times warned regarding his stance when someone would talk about his home country. He could simply keep it quiet and silent, don't feed the noise but he always responded.

That's keyboard wars, you let them go if you want:


/OFFTOPIC

Regarding the issue in hand, from what I see in terms of offtopic (and I'm also one that sometimes fall in such) normally it tends to go to 3 or 4 posts and then tones down

Example - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/vintage-computing/orcad-for-msdos/msg4403527/

End of Page 3 to forward.

Am I OK with it? Yes because is not offensive, divisive or hostile. Mostly is fun "Watercooler talk" related with the subject in some way.

Now if it goes into political/religious/personal beliefs where people fell that it may affect them that's the problem, and then we go again to the top of this post.

That's keyboard wars, you let them go if you want.

If someone wants to stop the offtopic just do what I see being done in some posts, just finish it by going again on topic.

Now an IDEA: Dave and the SMF administration, is there any way of creating a function like the quote?

Like a quote one that is always hidden until someone clicks over it to show the contents. That way people could offtopic inside a topic and the thread would be minimised by default until you clicked on it, kinda like how Reddit does with the negative karma posts.

It minimize them with an indication of how negative they are and you click to read on them by your own choice. That way the thread would be on topic and further offtopic derived from the thread subject itself contained hidden until clicked.

[Zoli]

The risk of the water-cooler talk to leak back in the normal forum is too big; unfortunately, I saw it too often. I suspect that what's happened with TEA(discord talk leaked back; I didn't participated in discord, I've read only references 'bout).
And it's easier to keep away water-cooler talk from the forum, then to prune it.
Just my 0.02$.

[nctnico]

From what I have seen over the years, good people have been banned here too fast for small things.

It's always based on a consistent pattern of behaviour, and usually multiple user reports over a long period of time, and no willingness to stop.

Then again there are also those that like to bait people into such behaviour. It takes two to tango.

[mushroom]

Definitely not interested in a off topic forum.

Instead, there could be an international forum, with different langages. Many technical forums have this feature. Could make life easier for some that are not always comfortable with english.

People who want to fight against each others or showing off already have social networks.

[pcprogrammer]

Oh, please lets not go down the road of different languages. I think the forum is best of with just English. Google translate is your friend here, and on the technical subjects you will have far better yield in getting answers when it is in English.

Edit: Come to think about it, allowing multiple languages makes moderation a nightmare.

My stand in the off_topic bits would be to always maintain the main rules of no politics, religion and weapons. Having a shielded section (lets say a minimum of 100 or even 200 posts before entry is allowed) can be nice to prolong some of the off topic that is interesting. This way it is out of sight on the main part of the forum, and less annoying to the many.

And no politics, religion or weapons, is not that easy by the way and definitely not moderated on, as long as it is not reported. Just take a look at the thread about the gas and energy prices. It drifted into conspiracy about who put who in control.

In a way the forum is a very nice and good place as it it, but in the light of the recent events, having a private playground might help, or not. Only time can tell.

[CatalinaWOW]

An off topic forum where people of somewhat interesting mindset can talk about whatever has some appeal.  And limiting it to people who have made enough posts to matter solves some problems, though 40 may not be a big enough number.  The problem is that I believe this area would need more moderation, and finding appropriate moderators could be a challenge.  I don't think I am qualified and am certainly not going to volunteer.

[Kjelt]

I have witnessed another forum related to hometheater and audio open up an afterhours (non ht relared) topic.
The result after five years was quite devastating. Afterhours posts were 90+% of the posts, ht and audio related only 10%. Most new members joined for the afterhours topic.

Then there are 25 members that just want to agonize other users posting just within the ban parameters so the admins could not take action. Admins spent 100% of their time on afterhours topics.
Mind you there are even rules like no local politics and no religious posts and still it is terrible.

So yes I understand long time members like to talk about different things but there are sooo many other social media to do this, why on the eevblog forum?

[mushroom]

...The result after five years was quite devastating....

I left half a dozen forums in the last 25 years because the crappy "lounge" or "bar" or "off topic" subforums created conflicts between members that had no problems before ; just an example : motorbikes vs cars ! These subforums litterally killed these great forums because they revealed all sorts of nazis and keyboard warriors. All people that were just fine and interesting before, just talking about tech.
What members are thinking IRL is just uninteresting. They could meet in a real bar.
Off topic can only divide people.

[Dundarave]

I side with “keeping things as is”.

I think that one of the key success factors for EEVblog is very likely a result of the focus and discipline around its having one single main theme: “engineering”, which, by definition is structured, methodical and to some degree “impersonal” and therefore somewhat uncontroversial at a personal level.

Allowing a drift away from that central focus & theme, I fear, will eliminate what sets the blog apart from the rest of the internet, and its infinity of other forums.

I also think that it’s a mistake to try to be “all things to all people”, which seems to be the impetus for making the proposed changes.  The reality is that one will never be able “to please all the people all the time”, as one old visionary pointed out.  It is simply impossible to satisfy everyone, and demonstrated folly to attempt to do so.

[Siwastaja]

I totally enjoy discussing off-topic, even politics. In that sense, I would like to have an off-topic section.

HOWEVER.

I would also like to eat all the ice cream we have in one go. It's a dopamine thing. Even if it feels good, it is not good for me. It's OK in tight moderation. One serving of ice cream per day. One off-topic post every now and then.

So I voted for NO WAY. Current way is excellent; short off-topic excursions are OK, and when things get a bit heated or off-topic for longer than a few pages, moderators chime in and lock the threads. It always sucks, like taking the ice cream away, but it's still the right thing to do, and as a result, I'm still here on this forum after so many years, almost a decade, able to discuss technical things (and 1-2% off-topic!)

More off-topic would very likely have negative consequences.

[magic]

Don't care strongly but sure as hell invisible to outsiders.

It's bad enough already that merely mentioning va*ing brings spammers posting ads for websites selling that shit.

[rstofer]

Yes, I think the bigger the forum gets, the more time people will tend to spend on here, and the more they will feel it kinda like an online "home" rather then just some place they talk electronics. Like the water cooler at work.

There are topics that are ill advised even around a water cooler.  In my view it is best to leave those discussions to Twitter or one of the other platforms.

[Zeyneb]

What I was missing in EEVBlog initial post is which houserules he would propose to apply for this new off-topic section. This way members can better judge if they can see this work out based on their experiences on the forum as well as the moderations in their job.

[JPortici]

I voted "i don't care" but i actually like how things are right now. The way off topic is tolerated/moderated in this section instead of a dedicated section

[mcinque]

dominate the "unread posts since last visit" list and could potentially put off newbies who joins and just see a list of gun and religious debates at the top of the list.

^THIS

[thm_w]

Agree.
No religion, politics, gun, etc. please. Other off-topic content might be ok (as cooking is? haven't read anything there).

[Sal Ammoniac]

I'm a heavy user of another technical forum, and it has "anything goes" sections, including one devoted to politics. Although discussions are often heated these sections (especially politics), I've never noticed anyone being less than civil to others in the technical sections, even those they've had knockdown, drag out arguments with in the political section--they seem to leave any animosity behind in the off-topic sections.

Caveat: this forum isn't anonymous--people don't use made-up names--they use callsigns, and callsigns can be looked up in databases and resolved to real names and addresses.

[thm_w]

I'm a heavy user of another technical forum, and it has "anything goes" sections, including one devoted to politics. Although discussions are often heated these sections (especially politics), I've never noticed anyone being less than civil to others in the technical sections, even those they've had knockdown, drag out arguments with in the political section--they seem to leave any animosity behind in the off-topic sections.

Caveat: this forum isn't anonymous--people don't use made-up names--they use callsigns, and callsigns can be looked up in databases and resolved to real names and addresses.

Feel free to name the forum.

[Muttley Snickers]

If general discussion topics are allowed then I think they should be semi-concealed in the same manner as the Supporters Lounge, that way they will not show up in Google searches or pollute the Recent Posts table on the landing page for those not logged in. ie: Guests.

It also means that those who use this new section are more likely to be established members who already know the forum rules and routines, they can lead by example and call out those who cross the line. If you want to read the gossip then you need to sign up and log in, if you are just here for the waffle then go to the cooking section.   

[Halcyon]

If general discussion topics are allowed then I think they should be semi-concealed in the same manner as the Supporters Lounge, that way they will not show up in Google searches or pollute the Recent Posts table on the landing page for those not logged in. ie: Guests.

It also means that those who use this new section are more likely to be established members who already know the forum rules and routines, they can lead by example and call out those who cross the line. If you want to read the gossip then you need to sign up and log in, if you are just here for the waffle then go to the cooking section.   

I think you make a great point. If Dave was to implement such a section, it shouldn't be promoted or really visible outside the forum itself.

It also probably shouldn't show up in the "global" unread posts/new posts count.

[EEVblog]

EEVblog will become yet another no-identity swamp of sheeple to be steered.  Is that what you want?

I don't image it it ever becoming that, and I think it's a tad melodramic to claim that having one off-topic board (that can be ignored) would lead to that.

Most probably an off-topic section will split the community even further, making others to live, either one by one, or in groups (to make their own forums someplace else), similar with what just happened after the TEA moderation incident only a few days ago.

Ironically, it seems that if there was and off-topic section then the TEA thing would never have happened.

I thought about putting an extar option in the poll, that being to have an off-topic section, but retain the same hot-button topic rules as is currently in place.
So if people want to talk about house flipping or goat herding with their friends here they can do that.

[EEVblog]

If this is just to ask because it seemed like a reasonable time to ask, then I ask: "What do you intend to achieve with such a change?".  I have a feeling the answer will circle back to my first point above.

Obviously the goal would be to "achieve" a better forum where people spend more time here and have fun discussing stuff they are intersted in.
Ignoring the list of the usual hot-button topics, if someone wanted to talk about, for example, renovating their house. Under the current system such a thread would be deemed off-topic and would likely be closed if it was spotted.
In an off-topic section this would be allowed and anyone with a similar interest could join in. They might even form a little "community" of people interested in renovations.

I can see it getting out of hand of course, but I can also see it working.

[EEVblog]

But if you suddenly introduce politics in a sports bar you'll get bar fights and stabbings every night.

Once again I am asking how come 'off topic' means 'political fighting'. There are other topics besides electronics and politics. You can certainly have an off-topic section and still mandate no politics (or the other stuff that quickly degenerates into a bunfight). You can even allow all those and still step in when it gets nasty.

I haven't marked the poll because I don't understand what's being asked. I thought it meant 'we can talk about random stuff, like painting walls and how to stop slugs eating the rhubard', but the way everyone is going on it means 'completely hands-off, moderators will be missing in action and you WILL be insulted enough to want to leave'.

So maybe someone can be clear about what this OT thing will actually be, and then we can vote from the position of knowledge.

As I mentioned above, there probably should be another poll option for "OT is fine, but keep the same hot-button topic ban list".
You are right, off-topic doesn't have to mean free-for-all.
We literally already have an entire off-topic section here called Cooking.

[EEVblog]

If general discussion topics are allowed then I think they should be semi-concealed in the same manner as the Supporters Lounge, that way they will not show up in Google searches or pollute the Recent Posts table on the landing page for those not logged in. ie: Guests.

That would be a given. It seems that majority that want it do want the 50 post Regular Contributor threshold.

[EEVblog]

It also probably shouldn't show up in the "global" unread posts/new posts count.

I don't think that's technically possible. Anyone with access to see it will have it show up as normal on count and unread posts lists, unless they deliberately add it to their Ignore Board list.

[Brumby]

Ironically, it seems that if there was and off-topic section then the TEA thing would never have happened.

Absolutely, categorically, definitively, demonstrably and unequivocally incorrect.  IMHO

There are members here who have been following the TEA thread for a number of years and are very well aware of the background to the recent kerfuffle.

In short, it centred on off-topic content being dropped into the TEA thread in increasing frequency and quantity, much to the annoyance of many - only some of whom were vocal.  The responsible parties were somewhat resistant to the idea of getting back on track, ignoring or objecting to suggestions that they do.  In some cases efforts were made to try and justify their actions by attempting to redefine the purpose of the TEA thread.

The simple fact that pretty much all the OT content which could have been posted in threads of their own (that would not have raised an eyebrow) but weren't demonstrates the alternate location conversation is purely a smokescreen and utter hogwash (IMHO).

Where the wheels fell off, though, is when things reached the limit of tolerance and we arrived at the point of the last straw.  Members' frustrations that had been building were vented and the Moderators found themselves in the middle of a hurricane and were obligated to take action in an unprecedented situation.

Regarding the issue in hand, from what I see in terms of offtopic (and I'm also one that sometimes fall in such) normally it tends to go to 3 or 4 posts and then tones down

This is exactly how things have run in the TEA thread for years - and I don't think there were any major reactions to that happening.  I know I glanced at that stuff and just skipped along to the next interesting bit.  It seems the TEA thread is settling down to continue as it did before - and that is a good thing.

It is unfortunate we have had some members move on - but I would welcome them back if the OT in specific threads was down in the noise floor - not at +120dB.

[Black Phoenix]

It is unfortunate we have had some members move on - but I would welcome them back if the OT in specific threads was down in the noise floor - not at +120dB.

I know of one such member gone that fits this criteria perfectly to the dot...

[james_s]

As I mentioned above, there probably should be another poll option for "OT is fine, but keep the same hot-button topic ban list".
You are right, off-topic doesn't have to mean free-for-all.
We literally already have an entire off-topic section here called Cooking.

I noticed that as well, although I don't think I've ever participated in that section. I do think that keeping the off topic stuff cordoned off so that it doesn't pollute the recent threads and search engine results is a good idea. I don't think it's a terrible idea to have a separate pub-like place where people can discuss other topics. Goes without saying that there should be SOME rules though. Stuff like no personal attacks, no politics unless it is related to engineering somehow, no religion, etc seems reasonable. I don't feel super strongly about it one way or another though since threads that have run their course are often allowed to stray a bit off topic without getting shut down.

[EEVblog]

dominate the "unread posts since last visit" list and could potentially put off newbies who joins and just see a list of gun and religious debates at the top of the list.

^THIS

This is completely avoidable by having the off-topic section invisible to Newbies

[beanflying]

One forum.

One set of Rules.

One set of Moderators.

Anything different to this just allows the muppets to go look over there it is ok and because of 'reasons' it should be ok here too. Just don't do it!



If any section like this is in plain sight you will get smacked for SEO by it.

AND

If the recent petulant children issue recently with TEA has shown ANYTHING a high post count means squat when it comes to doing the right thing when asked by you or the mods so limiting it to members of post count X or higher is just not justified and the content from members below that level of X posts is often the more fresh point of view and worth hearing.

OR IF YOU MUST

You set up a Discord server some time ago and apart from the random drive by post it is largely empty in spite of some of us trying it on for size early in the piece. Much as you don't widely promote it's existence maybe and just as a maybe make it a topic/board redirect link from the forum and switch Discord to a more off topic? I suspect most will simply ignore it. But as it is off forum and effectively not indexed this place will stay more on topic and higher up any SEO ranking.

[EEVblog]

Ironically, it seems that if there was and off-topic section then the TEA thing would never have happened.

Absolutely, categorically, definitively, demonstrably and unequivocally incorrect.  IMHO

I should have added "according to some of them (the ones that left)". They have said and implied that they would have stayed if off-topic discussion was not policed.
I know there are other reasons as well.
Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246

If Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.

[EEVblog]

At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.

I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
THANKS this post if you agree.

[Brumby]

My personal opinion ... not especially.

People can still do this as things stand anyway - and they have.  It might be a reach when picking a board, but I don't think people would really care too much.  Call it "Fringe Electronic Topic", maybe.

If the fact that the structure leans towards technical aspects of the world has anything to do with my thoughts - it's that this is what attracted me to the EEVblog (along with the Altronics K3330 power supply you had in the background of early videos ... I have one).

[Brumby]

I should have added "according to some of them (the ones that left)". They have said and implied that they would have stayed if off-topic discussion was not policed.
I know there are other reasons as well.
Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246

If Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.

  *** No comment ***

[Ed.Kloonk]

At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.

That's too bad. I've waited a very long time to finally read certain words you put in the OP.

I wonder if it worth pointing out to those frightened by (the result of) contentious topics is that in the last couple of years, many people have started to accept that opinions do differ. More importantly opinions are like butt holes. Don't get me wrong, there still are numpties who cannot move forward. Good thing Twitter exists.

[EEVblog]

CHANGE: I've changed the poll title to reflect the community opinion if the existing hot-button topic rules REMAIN.
Feel free to re-cast your vote accordingly.

[beanflying]

We also did this along similar lines 18 months ago https://www.eevblog.com/forum/news/new-off-topic-hobbies-section/msg3438190/#msg3438190

[EEVblog]

We also did this along similar lines 18 months ago https://www.eevblog.com/forum/news/new-off-topic-hobbies-section/msg3438190/#msg3438190

Forgot about that.
Ian.M made a good case for an Aerospace interest section:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/news/new-off-topic-hobbies-section/msg3837134/#msg3837134

[wilfred]

An off-topic section might even make the rest fo the forum better and more focussed? 

That was what I thought of the TEA thread.

But I still think a small group of members laying down rules to suit themselves e.g. low post count members are unwelcome, is not going to end well. It smacks of a them-and-us attitude.

The forum has its faults but I've learned to live with them. I don't want change.

[pcprogrammer]

Interesting how these things go. Getting a bit of a brexit vibe in the setup. The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490) based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.

Also missing is a well laid out idea about what the vote is about, judging by the now changed title of the poll.

Seen some good points in the comments here, like the section not being visible to "guests", so it does not become a magnet to attract the morons out there in the world.

But a simple solution for the more established members is already there. The supporters lounge is a place where it is possible to create a thread to discuss what might be a bit sensitive.

Take from it what you like.

[Brumby]

The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490)

The total member count is a useless metric.  I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute).  The number of voters IS a significant number - because it represents a significant number of members that:
 1. Are engaged here regularly enough to have been active since the poll's creation
 2. Have come across the poll
 3. Have had an opinion
 4. They have expressed that opinion by voting

From my observations, the number of members who recorded a vote in this one is better than a lot of polls.

based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.

The key here: What you think.

I think you are WAAAAY off base - being dismissive of a clear indication of "No".  You seem to ignore the fact that there has been a very stressful exercise recently that has polarised many opinions and, if anything, people have put a lot more time into thinking about the question than ever before.

You have NO evidence to support the assertion: "without taking the time to really think about it all."

[RoGeorge]

EEVblog will become yet another no-identity swamp of sheeple to be steered.  Is that what you want?

I don't image it it ever becoming that, and I think it's a tad melodramic to claim that having one off-topic board (that can be ignored) would lead to that.

I was thinking off-topic section means politics, religion, activism, war, conspiracies, other sensitive subjects and evil twists that can never be settled, and inevitably divides people.

And I bet many others understood the same, offtopic==alow_politics, that's why the mostly "no" in the poll results, and the proposed measures of no search indexing, post counts threshold visibility, enter here on your own risk, etc. so we won't be flooded by political bots.

I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.

That would be great to have, IMHO.  I'd love to see such projects. 

[pcprogrammer]

The total member count is a useless metric.  I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute).

I would not say that the total count is a complete useless metric, but you do have a point that there is less value in it. A large part of the members will not be to involved in the forum and as such will not have a strong opinion or interest in deciding on the current matter. It is a bit disappointing that the number of frequently active members is so low.

The key here: What you think.

I think you are WAAAAY off base - being dismissive of a clear indication of "No".  You seem to ignore the fact that there has been a very stressful exercise recently that has polarised many opinions and, if anything, people have put a lot more time into thinking about the question than ever before.

And indeed it is what I think, just the same as to what you think is what you think.

Further more if you read my posts you would know that I see benefits both ways of having the off topic section or not. I'm well aware of the recent events. Was part of the off topic stuff for a brief moment and participated in the discussion about it.

You have NO evidence to support the assertion: "without taking the time to really think about it all."

I can't support my assertion that members who voted did not take the time to really think about it all, I will give you that. I know you took the time for sure, because you present proper arguments for being against, but several of the posts here are simply stating "I don't like change". Whether they like it or not, things constantly change.

My preference is for a separate section to talk about "safe" non electronics related topics, and with "safe" I mean stuff that does not get people to upset. But I do also see it not working due to unwillingness of members to take their off topic stuff there. The whole argument from some that left, that having the TEA thread in a separate section that allows off topic would have avoided the whole ordeal is not valid, because it would still have been within the single thread that the off topic would have remained in causing the same trouble.

Sure I hope on a yes, but since Dave made this a democratic process, the majority has the say, even if it is the minority

The numbers are still rising, and yes the no is still ahead.

[wilfred]

The total member count is a useless metric.  I won't even try to explain why (just think about it for half a minute).  The number of voters IS a significant number - because it represents a significant number of members that:
 1. Are engaged here regularly enough to have been active since the poll's creation
 2. Have come across the poll
 3. Have had an opinion
 4. They have expressed that opinion by voting

From my observations, the number of members who recorded a vote in this one is better than a lot of polls.

Point 1. One does not need to be regularly engaged or active to vote. How is it known who voted? I don't see it.  Points 2,3,and 4 are self-evident. A member who does not have an opinion and is ignorant of the poll cannot express an opinion by voting.

Claiming this poll has greater participation than other polls is to damn it with faint praise.

I would argue participation would need to be greater than 10% of members who've posted 10 times or more to be considered significant. And it isn't, not even close. I'm taking the 86 number as accurate since I don't see who or how few have voted. If it gets to 500 I'll be impressed. But I still won't think it significant.

As far as I am concerned Dave can go ahead and create an off-topic section without polling at all. I almost wish he would just to get it over with.

[beanflying]

Interesting how these things go. Getting a bit of a brexit vibe in the setup. The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490) based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.

Also missing is a well laid out idea about what the vote is about, judging by the now changed title of the poll.

Seen some good points in the comments here, like the section not being visible to "guests", so it does not become a magnet to attract the morons out there in the world.

But a simple solution for the more established members is already there. The supporters lounge is a place where it is possible to create a thread to discuss what might be a bit sensitive.

Take from it what you like.

You made an arrogant ASSERTION of fact (in your opinion) with NO evidence that the other members who voted 'did not take time think about it'. Don't be dismissive of what thought did or did not go into clicking on a poll by others!

[Brumby]

Point 1. One does not need to be regularly engaged or active to vote. How is it known who voted? I don't see it.

Point 1 is also self-evident.

Note, I used the phrase "regularly enough".  Since the poll has not been up for 24 hours yet, if someone normally pops in every couple of days - or less frequently - they will not have had the chance to vote yet.

There was never any suggestion that a member need to be "regularly engaged or active" to vote.

[pcprogrammer]

You made an arrogant ASSERTION of fact (in your opinion) with NO evidence that the other members who voted 'did not take time think about it'. Don't be dismissive of what thought did or did not go into clicking on a poll by others!

And you just did the same by assuming otherwise and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.

[Brumby]

And you just did the same by assuming otherwise

All Beanflying did was state your assertion was not based on any evidence.  If you do have any hard evidence (and thoughtful musings are not) then we would be keen to hear it.

and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.

Again, he was just making it clear that what you said should not be accepted as fact.  Some people will take such casual comments and run with them as if they were fact.  Airing such unfounded opinions need to be challenged so as to avoid them gaining undeserved credibility.

[Ed.Kloonk]

As far as I am concerned Dave can go ahead and create an off-topic section without polling at all. I almost wish he would just to get it over with.

Exzachary. Dave needs to either shit or get off the pot. And no, that's not a video topic suggestion.


Edit: not even for the second channel.

[beanflying]

You made an arrogant ASSERTION of fact (in your opinion) with NO evidence that the other members who voted 'did not take time think about it'. Don't be dismissive of what thought did or did not go into clicking on a poll by others!

And you just did the same by assuming otherwise and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.

No not at all I was critical of YOUR initial post.

The poll is anonymous and unless you have magic clairvoyant skills you made up facts on what those people did or did not do to suit your assertions. Again you don't get to tell us or the responding members to the poll what considerations they made before pushing a button you simply have no idea about this!

[PlainName]

Ironically, it seems that if there was and off-topic section then the TEA thing would never have happened.

Absolutely, categorically, definitively, demonstrably and unequivocally incorrect.  IMHO

I should have added "according to some of them (the ones that left)". They have said and implied that they would have stayed if off-topic discussion was not policed.
I know there are other reasons as well.
Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246

If Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.

I think you're being played.

Not in a targeted way but in the excuses. I think most (complained about) off-topic posts were there simply because the poster couldn't be arsed to find somewhere else to write the stuff. Having a separate OT place will only work if people start threads there - IME, moving an OT post to it's own thread to continue often does nothing, because few follow and just prefer to remain where they were. We see that already in normal threads that drift, and someone starts a new thread to continue (an exception being a really contentious topic, but we're not talking contentious here, just OT).

Secondly, once admonished, there were likely egos and perceived ownership at play. "It's OUR thread, we wrote it", etc. Forgetting it's your forum, they are only here because this place existed. And, of course, there are the head egos who loved the thread because everyone else looked up to their pronouncements.

Those aren't out to make this a better place; they want it to be THEIR place and to get their pedestal back. They are happy where they are right now, and all you'll get for bending over backwards is more excuses and not action. You can see that already, so I am wondering why you are still bothering - if they wanted to make things right they would have done so already. No doubt more than a couple are sniggering behind their hands at the total upset caused in this forum, that THEY have managed to provoke. I would say not to fatten their egos any more. Despite their knowledge (and/or google-fu), if that's how they want to play it is better that they are where they are rather than here, working up to making more fuss.

[pcprogrammer]

And you just did the same by assuming otherwise

All Beanflying did was state your assertion was not based on any evidence.  If you do have any hard evidence (and thoughtful musings are not) then we would be keen to hear it.

and feeling the need to defend others from my statement.

Again, he was just making it clear that what you said should not be accepted as fact.  Some people will take such casual comments and run with them as if they were fact.  Airing such unfounded opinions need to be challenged so as to avoid them gaining undeserved credibility.

Which you did in a, to me, proper manner. And I responded to that hopefully the same, but that did not lead to a follow up from your side.

And I agree I should take better care when writing that things are my interpretation and never facts, unless I can provide some foundation for them.

But I can provide some evidence here, based on a single observation. Just look at the two posts RoGeorge made here. One early on, and one just above on this page. At first he was dead against, but now that the parameters surrounding what would be allowed have changed, he has also changed his view. That is what my second part of my post expressed, that the basic idea was not well laid out, but that did not get any response.

No it was just trip over the first line of what I wrote, that members where not thinking, because that is most like how it was perceived.

But this also shows that having discussions about real politics and religion are not possible without offense. People don't read properly anymore. They instantly see what they think it says, and I'm not free of that either, but at least try to take a step back before attacking someone.

[PlainName]

But this also shows that having discussions about real politics and religion are not possible without offense. People don't read properly anymore. They instantly see what they think it says

This is a good point. It's also worth noting that one is either completely and totally on one side or the other - there is no middle ground. Merely pointing out some mistake in an argument automatically puts one on the other side regardless of actual view and previous statements.

[tggzzz]

Interesting how these things go. Getting a bit of a brexit vibe in the setup. The majority of the minority is voting against, (86 members out of 58490) based upon, what I think, mostly feelings like "I don't like change", but without taking the time to really think about it all.

The "no comments" are supported by many solid well thought out statements, based on experiences here and elsewhere.

IMHO your statement is incorrect.

Let's not repeat old mistakes. There are so many new and interesting mistakes to be made.

[Bicurico]

I visit this forum every day several times. It is one of the tabs that open automatically when I start the web browser.

In the past years I have gained much knowledge from this forum, have seen many of my questions answered, have tried to help others with my little knowledge and even made some (virtual) friends.

EEVblog is an important part of my free time. While I could live without it, I would surely miss it.

With that said, I do take some care on what I post: I don't want to feed fired discussions, start flame wars or post unfit opinions. I expect other users to do the same, while understanding that people are different, come from different cultures, habits, educational levels, etc.

I like the moderation of the forum and except the banning of Würstchenhund, which I never quite understood (he does have some particular way of responding, I admit), everything is running fine in my opinion.

I did not understand the fuzz about the TEA, but I guess that is another story.

After explaining where I am, here is my opinion: I don't see any need for an off-topic section!

Everything reasonable can be discussed from a technical point of view and the remaining subjects (religion, believes, etc.) should not be discussed here, as they are subjective matters.

Want to post about cooking? Go to a cooking forum or discuss the technical aspect of it here: which thermal camera would be best to measure the temperature of the cheese in a cordon blue...

Adding an off-topic section is, in my opinion totally uncessary. What will be discussed there? Politics, war, religion, relationships, health? There are better forums to do that.

But it would not bother me if the section is created - I just think it will add noise and problems, while serving no particular purpose.

Regarding off-topic posts in a technical thread: I have no problem with that. It is part of any conversation. The off-topic bit might broaden the picture, even explain some approaches or just make the thread easier to read (humorous). I never felt that this was a problem at EEVblog.

Regards,
Vitor

[tautech]

What do all the moderators think ?

Everyday there is lively debate by experienced members that already know the limits to which they can post yet respect one another and this forum so not to be offended and possibly gain another's POV that they may previously not have considered.
Such is the "Gas Armageddon" thread that moderators have already spent some time examining that everybody is playing nice.
Technically quite OT and bordering on political yet revealing the bigger picture as info comes from many with a 'stake in the pie' yet IMO the thread has not fully fleshed out the current world state of affairs and really followed the money. 

To loosen the OT reins will certainly promote more similar discussion which if by adults is educational and thought provoking where if we all want to grow and understand one another should not be resisted as if it is how we learn to properly express ourselves and in a civil manner that any of us might need to when dealing with authority.....you might say that is for the educational services however unless you haven't noticed no Gubbermint wants their citizens to be too capable for fear they might challenge them !

This is the type of water cooler/bar chat we would expect along with the many fine examples of quality MSM reporting we are consistently fed of which anyone that challenges is publicly accused of being misinformed. 

One finds some guidance and comfort from the ramblings of the octogenarian Kiwi property magnate Sir Bob Jones:
https://nopunchespulled.com/
/2c

Dave, a running summary in the OP of where your head currently is would be useful to readers.

[tautech]

I like the moderation of the forum and except the banning of Würstchenhund, .............

From another time when our moderating Solomon's didn't get it right and was rightly appealed by the membership some while later to have Würstchenhund's membership reinstated.

But as has been already mentioned other valuable members also have been lost, some were discussed in now locked and/or unpinned Moderator Report threads where issues were hoped to be properly fleshed out in the Supporters board away from the full glare of the forum.

[EEVblog]

Adding an off-topic section is, in my opinion totally uncessary. What will be discussed there? Politics, war, religion, relationships, health? There are better forums to do that.

I already gave a suggestion, an Off Topics Projects section. And I linked to another post from Ian.M who made a good case for a dedicated Aeronautics section, and gave a list of a ton of thread already on the topic.

[EEVblog]

Literal quote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/tea/emptiness/msg4393246/#msg4393246

If Dave is unwilling to give us a real OT space... lets at least see if the chain-link fence he put up around the old TEAnonymous stronghold is enough make the whiners whine somewhere else.

I think you're being played.

I know that.

Those aren't out to make this a better place; they want it to be THEIR place and to get their pedestal back. They are happy where they are right now, and all you'll get for bending over backwards is more excuses and not action. You can see that already, so I am wondering why you are still bothering - if they wanted to make things right they would have done so already.

I know that also.
For those that think this is another attempt to lure those that left back, it's not, I know they are gone and I don't expect them to come back.
This actually came about because of a private moderator discussion that made me rethink what might be good for the forum. And by "good for the forum" I mean keeping people here for longer enjoying being here and talking about stuff. The "community" aspect of it so to speak.
The off-topic thing is one that comes up every few years naturally, this isn't the first discussion and poll on it.

[AVGresponding]

I think you're being played.

Not in a targeted way but in the excuses. I think most (complained about) off-topic posts were there simply because the poster couldn't be arsed to find somewhere else to write the stuff. Having a separate OT place will only work if people start threads there - IME, moving an OT post to it's own thread to continue often does nothing, because few follow and just prefer to remain where they were. We see that already in normal threads that drift, and someone starts a new thread to continue (an exception being a really contentious topic, but we're not talking contentious here, just OT).

Secondly, once admonished, there were likely egos and perceived ownership at play. "It's OUR thread, we wrote it", etc. Forgetting it's your forum, they are only here because this place existed. And, of course, there are the head egos who loved the thread because everyone else looked up to their pronouncements.

Those aren't out to make this a better place; they want it to be THEIR place and to get their pedestal back. They are happy where they are right now, and all you'll get for bending over backwards is more excuses and not action. You can see that already, so I am wondering why you are still bothering - if they wanted to make things right they would have done so already. No doubt more than a couple are sniggering behind their hands at the total upset caused in this forum, that THEY have managed to provoke. I would say not to fatten their egos any more. Despite their knowledge (and/or google-fu), if that's how they want to play it is better that they are where they are rather than here, working up to making more fuss.

In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave, and your ill-informed attempts to ascribe such base and juvenile motivations are quite far from the mark.

[strawberry]

new platform "EEVBlog social"
90% on topic is reasonable efficiency

[PlainName]

In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave

No-one 'had' to leave. Everyone that did, chose to do so.

[SiliconWizard]

At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.

I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
THANKS this post if you agree.

That kind of section would be cool indeed. (Heck, there is even a cooking section, so this one would definitely have its place.)
Now I think similar ideas have already emerged in the past and never really caught on, but who knows. I'm for it.

Now a general off-topic section, nope. Mostly saying it both for the forum and for you. I think that would become a rabbit hole quickly and would require a lot of moderation time and yield more frustration in the end for users than good. But I think that's kinda the general opinion anyway, so.

[EEVblog]

At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.

I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
THANKS this post if you agree.

That kind of section would be cool indeed. (Heck, there is even a cooking section, so this one would definitely have its place.)
Now I think similar ideas have already emerged in the past and never really caught on, but who knows. I'm for it.

If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.

[EEVblog]

In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave, and your ill-informed attempts to ascribe such base and juvenile motivations are quite far from the mark.

If everyone was unhappy to leave, why did not one of them contact me and alert me to what was happening (I literally didn't know) and ask me if there was anything I could do to help the situation?
Seriously, not one person contacted me about this whole thing.

[pcprogrammer]

At this stage in the poll it's looking like the majority don't want this.

I just had an idea. Would anyone be interested in an "Off-Topic Projects" section? You could post your latest non-electronics related project, like you built a nice new deck, restored your car etc.
THANKS this post if you agree.

That kind of section would be cool indeed. (Heck, there is even a cooking section, so this one would definitely have its place.)
Now I think similar ideas have already emerged in the past and never really caught on, but who knows. I'm for it.

If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.

Don't know of a specific thread, but can start one about the terrace the wife and I did in the past couple of months. Made a post about it in a thread of yours about not to alienate people from your life.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/life-advice-dont-dismiss-or-lose-respect-for-people/msg4296922/#msg4296922

Edit: post a picture of your cat could be a candidate to be moved. Very nice thread about what some may call a hobby but nothing to do with electronics.

[AVGresponding]

In point of fact all are unhappy at having had to leave, and your ill-informed attempts to ascribe such base and juvenile motivations are quite far from the mark.

If everyone was unhappy to leave, why did not one of them contact me and alert me to what was happening (I literally didn't know) and ask me if there was anything I could do to help the situation?
Seriously, not one person contacted me about this whole thing.

I think this point has already been covered, at least partially. Most (including me) assumed there was some active monitoring of the situation by yourself. I know, I know, it's that old thing about assumptions...

Once the situation had degenerated past a certain point, it's probably a case of people having their entrenched positions and feeling unable to move from them, but that's partly speculation on my part. The usual human characteristics, including, but not limited to, stubbornness also come into play here, and to quote another aphorism, you can't un-bake a cake.

Personally, I hate the .io format and will lobby for a proper forum format; it's unclear at this point whether this will be another forum hosting service or if people can come back here after a period of time. I'd rather here, but I'm just one voice amongst several. Quite a few people have stayed here, as have I, but not all are posting in the TEA; there's less there to interest me, for example, due to certain absences, though of course some of the regulars remain. I'll continue to post as I see fit, and if that involves someone complaining to mods and getting censured, so be it.

[RoGeorge]

If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.

A maybe candidate, bicycle proj?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/bianchi-vento-605-vs-606-(1995)-looking-for-use-and-maintenance-manual/

[jpanhalt]

If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.

Easy:
1) https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/my-condolences-to-my-uk-and-commonwealth-mates/?topicseen
2)Thread on DEI.

I have not responded sooner as it seemed the consensus (2/3) was against or "don't care."  However, it appears EEVBlog may be headed there anyway.  I don't participate currently in many forums.  The ones I left were mostly because of the OT general non-technical chat sections.  Moderators, of course, are free to contribute to anything, but when they contribute to political/social discussions, I believe their moderator status needs to be limited and clearly defined, e.g., deleting profanity.  In other words, as the debate gets more "vigorous" they will naturally take a side and moderate the other side -- not only in the thread in question, but also in technical threads.  Simply put, they hold a grudge.  That happened at EDABoard (very quickly), AAC, and ETO. 

EEVBlog has so far escaped that demise.  Please do not change. 

[Vovk_Z]

I don't see why an additional off-topic section will hurt. It can help to structurize the forum. And there may be several ones: 1) 'usual off-topic stuff' (e.g. "General people chat") and 2) 'risky off-topic' - politics etc (Unseen to newbies).

[Vovk_Z]

If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.

I'm not sure, possibly almost all threads of the 'General Technical Chat'? 
Possibly, the question is "Which few technical threads do really belong to General Technical Chat"?

[ebastler]

If anyone knows of any existing off-topic project threads that could seed such a new section, please post the links.

I'm not sure, possibly almost all threads of the 'General Technical Chat'? 
Possibly, the question is "Which few technical threads do really belong to General Technical Chat"?

No. I hardly see any threads in the "General Technical Chat" which would deal with (off-topic) projects.

In fact, I recently see quite a few threads there which are not about "technical" topics at all. Gas prices, Queen Elizabeth passing, dealing with a manipulative coworker, are top of the list as I'm writing this. Not to mention the recent endless "diversity" discussion, which Dave deliberately kept open.

Hence, I would argue the forum already has an "off-topic" section. I struggle to imagine which topics might be acceptable beyond what is already the norm in the "General Technical Chat".

[beanflying]

Perhaps Dave should just clarify what he has now gone onto discussing as 'off topic'.

My read of it is currently more along the lines off 'Off Topic Projects and Interests'  and not 'Off Topic anything goes' if you have a read through.

Mech Eng has plenty of crossover to make it relevant as does 3D printing.

I wasn't a supporter of adding cooking to the forum much as I contribute there as it is a strong interest of mine.

But do we need a Gardening, Bike, R/C, Car, Travel, Woodworking, Skateboarding, Surfing, Fishing, CAT...... threads or sections on an Electronics forum?

[pcprogrammer]

Not to mention the recent endless "diversity" discussion, which Dave deliberately kept open.

Which, as a side note, is far of on this forum when it comes to women versus men. 1:1015. How can that be. 

[Ed.Kloonk]

Edit: post a picture of your cat could be a candidate to be moved. Very nice thread about what some may call a hobby but nothing to do with electronics.

Whoa there, buster!

Cats have everything to do with electronics. Any bench not equipped with at least one cat can not really be called a true bench.

[beanflying]

Are Fur Balls Conductive 

[pcprogrammer]

Edit: post a picture of your cat could be a candidate to be moved. Very nice thread about what some may call a hobby but nothing to do with electronics.

Whoa there, buster!

Cats have everything to do with electronics. Any bench not equipped with at least one cat can not really be called a true bench.

Sorry Ed, did not mean to upset you. I would say post a picture of your cat to prove your statement. I can't anymore, you know due to the wife's allergy. Still miss the buggers.

[Ian.M]

The problem with cats on the bench is they are generally not ESD safe!

ESD-safe cat

I have not tested if Sphinx cats are actually ESD safe.  No cats have been harmed  during ESD testing (though plenty of chips have died).   

CAUTION: Wear adequate full-body PPE when testing if a cat is ESD-safe!

And yes, I still miss the shop cats from my previous employer.

[xrunner]

Sorry Ed, did not mean to upset you. I would say post a picture of your cat to prove your statement. I can't anymore, you know due to the wife's allergy. Still miss the buggers.

I got your back Ed! 

[Ed.Kloonk]

All I'm saying is that if you thought the TEA thread peeps were an angry mob, crossing the cat thread folks would cause the biggest internet shit fight the world has ever known.

[Black Phoenix]

Agreed, the other day Wanda was inside the room at night and I could hear and see her because her hair was doing static discharges on the mosquito net (the air was cold and dry because of the AC).

So yes, the potential is there for that. And trying to test if she is ESD safe really needs a full suit or I would be full of scratches and bites...

[pcprogrammer]

All I'm saying is that if you thought the TEA thread peeps were an angry mob, crossing the cat thread folks would cause the biggest internet shit fight the world has ever known.

You are funny and crack me up every time But I was not attacking the thread, just saying it deserves a place of its own. Kind of an upgrade if you will.

[Vovk_Z]

But I was not attacking

We only see 'cats' and 'attacking' here, so I'm afraid...    

[PlainName]

Which, as a side note, is far of on this forum when it comes to women versus men. 1:1015. How can that be. 

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Which, as a side note, is far of on this forum when it comes to women versus men. 1:1015. How can that be. 

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

And that's just because of the spam bots.

[AVGresponding]

Not to mention the recent endless "diversity" discussion, which Dave deliberately kept open.

Which, as a side note, is far of on this forum when it comes to women versus men. 1:1015. How can that be. 

Which has only worsened as a result of the TEApocalypse, since one of the few female members was one of the regulars who has departed.

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.

[pcprogrammer]

I also wonder how it is determined, because you can also refrain from stating your gender. I have seen several members not mentioning it in their profile. So are the ratios better or even worse.

But we are drifting away from the question at hand. New section for non electronics related topics yee or nee and what should be allowed as such in case of yee.

I think we can all agree that politics, religion and guns should still be banned to avoid to big a mishaps.

[tautech]

I also wonder how it is determined, because you can also refrain from stating your gender. I have seen several members not mentioning it in their profile. So are the ratios better or even worse.

It is very possible in this day and age just 2 choices of gender are insufficient !

[pcprogrammer]

I wasn't a supporter of adding cooking to the forum much as I contribute there as it is a strong interest of mine.

But do we need a Gardening, Bike, R/C, Car, Travel, Woodworking, Skateboarding, Surfing, Fishing, CAT...... threads or sections on an Electronics forum?

@Ed.Kloonk, swoop in for the kill, CAT's being dissed

Well why not. You seem to have cooking as a side interest. I have Fischer Technik and synthesizers as other hobbies. Others might have what you listed. There is more to life then just electronics. Sure it is the electronics that brings us all to this forum and what I have seen is that many dislike the other forums out there that are about the topics you listed. I guess some of us just like a safe space to talk about those other interest without having to deal with folks that are to abusive.

And for most of the time this forum is such a safe space.

To allow for it to stay safe, I do like the suggestion of keeping it behind membership only doors.

[PlainName]

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.

You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?

[Ranayna]

The only "Personality" Part of my profile thats even filled out is my location. Since that can have a significant impact regarding parts availability and local regulations and customs.
Also it maybe softens the blow if my english comes out garbled and stuffed with german fillerwords
Anything else should in all reality be absolutely irrelevant in a professional discussion. And if it is relevant for some reason, you can bring it up when such a situation comes up.

Anyway, on topic

I would like an "curated" Offtopic section. I would agree to keep the "hot topics" out of the EEVBlog, except maybe in the unlikely case that you are able to find enough competent moderators to keep things civil. And even then i would prefer some topics to be off limits. And there is precedence with the cooking section.
I would think sections on wood and metalworking can be quite successful here. Stuff like that might even be useful related to TEA, covering restoration of old equipment, which often enough is as much metalworking as electronics.

I personally would also like to see the discussions in the TEA Thread to be more split up. The TEA Thread is just too huge and somewhat intimidating to be honest. And if the owner of the first post will not continue updating it, it will become even more so. It's also hard to search. But the TEA section is still empty, so i seem to be somewhat alone with that opinion 

Of course a more accessible TEA section might require increased effort by moderation. Stuff can't fly under the radar, so to speak, as easily. I do not even know how many mods the EEVBlog has. I know of Simon and Halcyon?, but two mods seems to be very few for a board this size.

[bdunham7]

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

I'm pretty sure EEVBlog is 99.9% grumpy old men.  Of course not all of them realize that...

[pcprogrammer]

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

I'm pretty sure EEVBlog is 99.9% grumpy old men.  Of course not all of them realize that...

Are you sure you want to stick your head above ground level with something you can't prove with proper evidence. 

[CatalinaWOW]

The last few pages have at least partially crystalized my thinking on this subject, and may provide a useful suggestion for moving forward.  There are two very different objectives for me (and I suspect many others on this board).  One is to find and/or share technical information on a variety of subjects.  The other is to chat, share and jest with others who are in some sense "birds of a feather".  As these last two pages have shown this latter objective tends to creep in and dilute the original content of the thread.  It isn't malice, it is just human nature and it is a generally good thing.

With that background it would seem appropriate to define any topic which discusses a specific repair, electronic topic, theory, coding and the like is "on topic" and to make it easier to access that information later should be kept very close to the original subject.  It is difficult enough to find some obscure bits of information without wading through pages of some interesting side discussion.

All else is "off topic". 

The forum already has many threads that meet this definition of "off topic" so the question is whether to allow more and if there should be any limits.

Both areas should be self moderated (as usually happens on this forum and is one of the great things about it), but that self moderation and any formal moderation would have very different character in the "on topic" and "off topic" areas.  In the "on topic" area it would be reminders to stay on subject, while in the "off topic" area it would be generally focused on civility.  The header or rules for such an area probably should also suggest that since the forum members are in many ways a homogeneous group threads and topics should be chosen with that in mind. 

[AVGresponding]

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.

You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?

Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.

[m k]

(should I, or should I not)

First like minded are gathering and later more will come.
Finally the group is big enough to have a sub group of like minded of something else.
This has happened.

Much later the situation can be a web of like minded sub groups with crisscrossing members.
This has not happened.
For reason or another many are also against that kind of evolutional possibility.

A web of sub groups can have a bubble for gladiators and another for origami artists.
If and when gladiators then are beating each others up it's just business as usual but if origami artists are doing the same then that bubble is clearly boiling.
Of course making an origami can be very stressful but then one can join to gladiators and release their stress all day long.
Maintaining that kind of environment successfully is obviously possible only if participants are supporting it.

My off topic here has clearly been very different to what many others have thought.
Here General Technical Chat has actually been pretty much without the technical part.

Opening a truly off topic section will probably initially work since the original group is ready and is a collection of more or less like minded participants.
Later truly off topic becomes a primary reason and it would still be fine if more general posters could outnumber disruptors but finally that wont be the case.
It's also pillaging, despite the ignore functionality.
So that kind of change will finally require much more maintenance.

Community moderation is functional only when community is actually moderating.
This has not happened, what has happened has been something else.
My guess is that before TEA this place has not been a primary environment.
Important yes, but more like a some sort of a mental sanctuary outside of mostly everything else, so secondary at best.
Then TEA turned the thing upside down and community moderation failed.
Gladiator bubble and origami bubble must be moderated differently.

Moderation being actually moderation and not cleaning must be less pragmatic and more personal, not emotional but still personal.
I watched a clip once, it was for racial USA today, sort of.
There black guy shouted "black power" and white guy interrupted his interview and shouted back "white power" and continued his interview with "sorry about that" apology, this happened several times.
What I remember is that the white guy wasn't a racist in any special way, maybe even more like ef you J. Edgar, next time I'll want my lawn mower back.
Since we have only letters we should be much more cautious what can be passed over.

If multi page thread has couple of last pages full of off topics, what should be done?
Tone of off topics is clearly relevant.
Is OP somehow obligated or responsible?
Should a thread be locked when possibly outsiders are doing bad things?
All threads are not irrelevant for everybody.

What are severity levels of moderation actions?
Banning is obviously highest but what's next?
Sensoring is high for some but there are different contents.
Locking is not removing anything but behaving parties may feel differently.
Have I missed or forgotten all moderator splitted threads?

[PlainName]

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.

You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?

Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.

Are you, perchance, ascribing a level of truthfulness to my info despite knowing nothing whatsoever about me or that info? Isn't that irrelevant speculation?

[AVGresponding]

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.

You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?

Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.

Are you, perchance, ascribing a level of truthfulness to my info despite knowing nothing whatsoever about me or that info? Isn't that irrelevant speculation?

As I said, it's a guess, and informed by how close I happen to know my forum name is to my real one. And yes, it is irrelevant speculation; I was however merely trying to clarify my position to you.

[PlainName]

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.

You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?

Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.

Are you, perchance, ascribing a level of truthfulness to my info despite knowing nothing whatsoever about me or that info? Isn't that irrelevant speculation?

As I said, it's a guess, and informed by how close I happen to know my forum name is to my real one. And yes, it is irrelevant speculation; I was however merely trying to clarify my position to you.

I wonder, then, why my informed guess was somehow worth making a song and dance about. The info posted cannot be trusted (a self-evident fact) so what you kicked up a fuss about was merely what the actual true to false ratio is. Pedantically, it doesn't matter: either it is reliable or it is not, and it is clearly not.

Having said that, I would agree that ratio of male to female would still be skewed heavily to male, but I wonder why you could not just point that out instead of trying to make out I was somehow fibbing, simply because your limited experience didn't allow for the possibility.

[AVGresponding]

People's stated gender when registering no doubt bears as much relation to reality as their username or location.

Mine is accurate, as is that of everyone I personally know here. Ascribing levels of truthfulness/disclosure to people you don't know is pure and irrelevant speculation.

You really are Mr AVGResponding? Or is that your first name?

Closer than yours is, at a guess. It's fair to say however, that I should have clarified that I was referring to location and gender, more than real name.

Are you, perchance, ascribing a level of truthfulness to my info despite knowing nothing whatsoever about me or that info? Isn't that irrelevant speculation?

As I said, it's a guess, and informed by how close I happen to know my forum name is to my real one. And yes, it is irrelevant speculation; I was however merely trying to clarify my position to you.

I wonder, then, why my informed guess was somehow worth making a song and dance about. The info posted cannot be trusted (a self-evident fact) so what you kicked up a fuss about was merely what the actual true to false ratio is. Pedantically, it doesn't matter: either it is reliable or it is not, and it is clearly not.

Having said that, I would agree that ratio of male to female would still be skewed heavily to male, but I wonder why you could not just point that out instead of trying to make out I was somehow fibbing, simply because your limited experience didn't allow for the possibility.

I never at any point implied, inferred, or insinuated that you were fibbing. I merely pointed out that all the people I know personally here, are accurately described in terms of gender and location in their profiles.

Unless the people I know are outliers, then it seems likely the general membership is not grossly different.

[pcprogrammer]

All nice and dandy, but it is this kind of "bickering" that f.. ups things. If not done about it start a new thread to fight it out, but lets go back on what this thread is about. And yes I know I started the side note, but also tried to steer it back on course a couple of times.

As to what "m k" wrote, what just happened somewhat proofs his point.

But I feel that it should be possible to have a section where self moderation can keep things in check when it is not made easy for trouble makers to join in. So visible to members only to not attract attention from the outside world, and at least the 50 posts in the electronics section Dave mentioned to get access.

Then this section can house threads like the "Gas Armageddon" that contain tainted off topic posts.

To allow for the different hobbies it can have sub boards like the Computers section.

Lets at least have a proper discussion about that.

[AndyBeez]

btw "Yes" responses are split into two groups.

I would like to suggest a "Teardowns" section under the "Electronics" group; here people post their teardowns and reverse engineered schematics. Just a thought.

[Zeyneb]

If there would be an off-topic interests forum section it would be hard to judge if you should put your post there or in General Technical chat. I don't think the title General Technical chat is valid for the posts you will find there. I believe there is a strong need for social talk about work situations, gas prices and other political and economic influences and moderation is tolerating this already to a certain point.

Also you could have too many sub sections, and in many cases people would prefer to put it in General Technical chat to get the attention. As case in point this thread right here. Officially I would argue Dave should have put it in News/Suggestions/Help but few people are looking there.

So I do believe General Technical chat should be renamed to Community chat, maybe with some post count before members could gain access. And then hobbies and interests outside pure electronics/computers could go into one or more off-topic interests sections. But keep in mind people are looking for a reasonable popular sub section to get sufficient attention.

[PlainName]

But keep in mind people are looking for a reasonable popular sub section to get sufficient attention.

That's a good point, but I would suggest that popularity isn't necessarily desirable for what is a side dish. If someone wants to follow a plumbing rewire (don't know the right term - not a plumber) they would probably hang out in a plumbing offshoot, but they are really here for the electronics. If you need eyeballs then surely a pukka plumbing forum would be a better place to look for them.

[Zeyneb]

But keep in mind people are looking for a reasonable popular sub section to get sufficient attention.

That's a good point, but I would suggest that popularity isn't necessarily desirable for what is a side dish. If someone wants to follow a plumbing rewire (don't know the right term - not a plumber) they would probably hang out in a plumbing offshoot, but they are really here for the electronics. If you need eyeballs then surely a pukka plumbing forum would be a better place to look for them.

Alright, I think that can be addressed by having good section titles and content that match the titles.

[Brumby]

So I do believe General Technical chat should be renamed to Community chat ...

I'm here because the EEVblog follows a core theme that is represented by the first word in its name: Electronics.

As such, any "general" discussions benefit the purpose of the forum if they are directed towards that area of discussion.  Having it titled "General Technical Chat" provides such a framework.  I want people to stop and think about whether their idea for a thread that isn't "technical" is really worth publishing here.  I know I've pulled myself back from starting a few threads because it really wasn't going to benefit anyone who comes here looking for technical engagement.

Changing the title (and, hence the definition) to something less specific is basically saying "we don't care about electronics being the core reason for the EEVblog's existence, so have at it".  The fact that we already have a number of threads that fall outside this framework is one that I would prefer to not get any worse.

[Brumby]

Community moderation is functional only when community is actually moderating.
This has not happened, what has happened has been something else.
My guess is that before TEA this place has not been a primary environment.
Important yes, but more like a some sort of a mental sanctuary outside of mostly everything else, so secondary at best.
Then TEA turned the thing upside down and community moderation failed.
Gladiator bubble and origami bubble must be moderated differently.

Community moderation in the TEA thread failed because there was a failure of a very small section of the membership which refused to acknowledge any wrong doing - and actively went on to justify their actions without regard to the community.

For community moderation to work, each and every member of that community must be prepared to consider their actions may have been inappropriate in the eyes of others - and that if there is a consensus of such, they need to respond accordingly.  This has been happening for quite some time (clumsily on occasions, perhaps) with it being reasonably effective.  Recalcitrant members not only prevent this from happening, but create significant problems along the way.

Could a different tack in Moderation have changed the outcome?  Possibly.  However, it must be made quite clear that there has been very little need for "advanced" moderation skills on the EEVblog since it has been quite well behaved for quite a long time.  The recent kerfuffle was quite unique and escalated quickly.  No-one was prepared for it.

[tautech]

So I do believe General Technical chat should be renamed to Community chat ...

I'm here because the EEVblog follows a core theme that is represented by the first word in its name: Electronics.

As such, any "general" discussions benefit the purpose of the forum if they are directed towards that area of discussion.  Having it titled "General Technical Chat" provides such a framework.  I want people to stop and think about whether their idea for a thread that isn't "technical" is really worth publishing here.  I know I've pulled myself back from starting a few threads because it really wasn't going to benefit anyone who comes here looking for technical engagement.

Changing the title (and, hence the definition) to something less specific is basically saying "we don't care about electronics being the core reason for the EEVblog's existence, so have at it".  The fact that we already have a number of threads that fall outside this framework is one that I would prefer to not get any worse.

It should be clearly pointed out to you that quite recently the what is now General Technical Chat board was previously just General Chat as Dave changed the name of it and added Technical in an effort to get threads to remain ON Topic.
Therefore what Zeyneb is asking for is no more than a return to how things were and not some step into the abyss as you seem to imply.

It even seems from the URL that at one time it was just Chat however that may have been before 2013 when I joined.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/

[wilfred]

Also you could have too many sub sections, and in many cases people would prefer to put it in General Technical chat to get the attention. As case in point this thread right here. Officially I would argue Dave should have put it in News/Suggestions/Help but few people are looking there.

I think you make a good point about this thread News/Suggestions/Help would have been the appropriate place for it. But I don't look in there much at all. I also think too many section and sub sections just feeds the topic nazis. It also fragments the forum and reduces visibility for topic of lesser popularity. The sections heading can't substitute for a database index or search in order to direct attention to items of interest.

So I do believe General Technical chat should be renamed to Community chat, maybe with some post count before members could gain access. And then hobbies and interests outside pure electronics/computers could go into one or more off-topic interests sections. But keep in mind people are looking for a reasonable popular sub section to get sufficient attention.

General Technical Chat was General Chat before the word Technical was inserted. But still you see some very tenuous topics started with flimsy justification as technical. Just for example and I don't object to these threads I mostly ignore them, My DOG just swallowed a 470uF electrolytic cap (SMD type), german silver/nickel silver allergy? ,AI generated imagery getting absurdly good, Post a picture of a cat!, Shipping: Australia to USA and My condolences to my UK and Commonwealth mates.  That's just some visible on the first page. I'm OK with them but are they what adding the word Technical in the board title was meant to weed out? Probably. But they foster a community spirit amongst members, which is good.

Even the contentious topics had their use as a juicier piece of meat for the highly opinionated argumentative members to sink their teeth into. Although that's not an endorsement of them.

[Ed.Kloonk]

The word technical was added for the same reason that most people were quite happy with a choice of just two restrooms.

[pcprogrammer]

To me most of the above arguments validate the existence of a separate section for what does not belong in General Technical Chat, or the rest of the electronics part of the forum.

Sure the argument that people want to start a thread somewhere with a bigger chance on getting spotted is valid, but then community moderation is needed to correct such a situation. And I fear that it is trhere where it will fail. Because of reluctance to cooperate due to thinking nothing wrong is done. Brumby has a strong point there about why the TEA situation failed eventually.

Also thinking that the possible new sections are for getting advice on non electronic related topics is, to my opinion, not correct. To me it is not about getting advice on something, but more a sharing of things I enjoy and others might enjoy that too. If I need advice on something that is not core on this forum I will use google. And when I do need advice on electronics related stuff, google is my first approach also.

I have to augment the above a bit with subjects that concern live advice, like "I'm being harassed by a coworker" can get good advice and maybe not easily found on google.

And the "My DOG just swallowed a 470uF electrolytic cap" brought a lot of humor And laughing is good for you, don't dismiss that.

[EEVblog]

Also thinking that the possible new sections are for getting advice on non electronic related topics is, to my opinion, not correct. To me it is not about getting advice on something, but more a sharing of things I enjoy and others might enjoy that too. If I need advice on something that is not core on this forum I will use google. And when I do need advice on electronics related stuff, google is my first approach also.

That was what my Off-Topic Project section idea was about. It's not about asking questions, it's about sharing other projects you are working on. If people are interested then they can join in and discuss etc.
If not, no worries, it's just a place to share your projects in case it helps or inspires others.

[tggzzz]

Could a different tack in Moderation have changed the outcome?  Possibly.  However, it must be made quite clear that there has been very little need for "advanced" moderation skills on the EEVblog since it has been quite well behaved for quite a long time.  The recent kerfuffle was quite unique and escalated quickly.  No-one was prepared for it.

Agreed.

I'll add a legal maxim: extreme cases make bad laws.

Example: after Dr Harold Shipman's activities (the most prolific serial killer in modern history, with an estimated 250 victims) were discovered, there were calls to regulate doctors so it wouldn't happen again. Such regulation would have been a major overhead for something that was highly unlikely to ever happen again. Fortunately nothing much was changed.

[Brumby]

It should be clearly pointed out to you that quite recently the what is now General Technical Chat board was previously just General Chat as Dave changed the name of it and added Technical in an effort to get threads to remain ON Topic.
Therefore what Zeyneb is asking for is no more than a return to how things were and not some step into the abyss as you seem to imply.

Sorry if I gave that impression.  I just want to support the name change that includes the word "Technical" for exactly the reason given.

[EEVblog]

General Technical Chat was General Chat before the word Technical was inserted. But still you see some very tenuous topics started with flimsy justification as technical.

The idea was to have a suble reminder to try and keep new threads at least somewhat on-topic.

[EEVblog]

Could a different tack in Moderation have changed the outcome?  Possibly.  However, it must be made quite clear that there has been very little need for "advanced" moderation skills on the EEVblog since it has been quite well behaved for quite a long time.  The recent kerfuffle was quite unique and escalated quickly.  No-one was prepared for it.

Yep.

[m k]

The recent kerfuffle was quite unique and escalated quickly.  No-one was prepared for it.

Clear indication that moderation must happen from inside.

My guess is that community moderation is not going to work above sanitation level, where it is very good.
Good behaving parties have a tendency to yield, newcomers even more.
I think I've reported once, it was for exceptionally high amount of views, and obviously just accidentally spotted.

Community moderation above sanitation level must also happen publicly.
Reporting behind the scenes is something else and lurkers are not the community.

If silent community moderation is really tried reports must have numerical indicators and maintenance must be able to log them.
Something like an integer and fraction where integer is what and fraction how high, then optional text.
Mood of post is also very important, somebody have used a phrase usual suspects, what its plurality means, if that is many vs. many then I think the community has a problem.

I'm not familiar with many sections here but few possible sub groups I can name, TE addicts, HAMs and Lamp makers.
Partially those groups must be separated permanently, community can't do that.
Generally ignoring is not good for the community either.

Of course there is also a possibility that deepening community is not wanted direction.
Then crippled community moderation is a good level chopper.
But that's obviously not good for cleaned parties and possibly even worse for cleaners.

[wilfred]

General Technical Chat was General Chat before the word Technical was inserted. But still you see some very tenuous topics started with flimsy justification as technical.

The idea was to have a suble reminder to try and keep new threads at least somewhat on-topic.

It was definitely worth trying. You don't want to die wondering if a simple idea was all that is needed.

[PlainName]

Reporting behind the scenes is something else and lurkers are not the community.

Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker? Often, reporting is preferable to public calling out because it doesn't kick off a flame war and can be handled in the (forum's) preferred way.

[wilfred]

Mood of post is also very important, somebody have used a phrase usual suspects, what its plurality means, if that is many vs. many then I think the community has a problem.

I've read your post carefully. I'm going to guess from the Finnish flag English is not your first language. I had difficulty extracting the meaning in this sentence. Most native English speakers don't know what plurality means. Perhaps countries that have a first past the post electoral system it might not be so true. In Australia where we have a preferential voting system I'd hazard a guess not even 1 in a thousand would have a clue. I can say it means, to get the largest portion of votes in an election but still falling short of an absolute majority (half).

The phrase "the usual suspects" comes near the end of the film Casablanca (spoiler alert) where in response to the lead character Rick (played by Humphry Bogart) having just shot Major Strasse the local police commander says to his men  "Major Strasse has been shot, round up the usual suspects". Even though Major Strasse was shot in his presence. It means to appear to be doing something but really try to quietly return to the status quo.

It may not be what you were thinking but I think the group who get moved to report posts that concern them or members whom they disagree with are small in number (i.e. not a plurality or majority) and strongly correlate with very active members (some) who collectively hold a selfish sense of entitlement over other forum members. It is in my opinion few members against few members not many vs. many. I don't think the community has a big problem and complex moderation solutions are not needed and they will be difficult to enforce.  I also don't think encouraging widespread ignoring using forum mechanisms is a sign this is a good idea.

Very few and definitely not all active members engage in this behavior. And there will be members who occasionally make a moderation report if they think the good of the forum merits it. But in general the same few "the usual suspects" would be involved. In these cases self-moderation is called for and they should remember the threads are read by many others who deserve consideration.

So has this thread started to approach an answer?

Should there be an off-topic section? No
Should the level of moderation change? No

Should we round up the usual suspects? Yes.

Just search on "casablanca usual suspects" and you'll find a video.

[m k]

Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker?

Don't assume what I assume.

[mushroom]

...it's about sharing other projects you are working on...

Just changed vote to "Yes, good idea. Open to everyone."

[CatalinaWOW]

As a native speaker of American English (the source of the film Casablanca) I feel that assigning a meaning of returning to the status quo to the phrase "the usual suspects" goes a bit far.  I interpreted this, and assume a great many others interpreted it similarly, to simply mean that there are a group of people known or suspected by many to be prone to a certain behavior.  The extra meaning extracted from the film requires the entire context of usage from the film (plot, speaker, situation).

A return to the status quo may be the right answer in this case.  Or special treatment of the "usual subjects".  Or something else.  I am not wise enough to give a definitive answer here.  Dave obviously feels somewhat similarly, hence the question posed in this thread.

[m k]

And there will be members who occasionally make a moderation report...

Working community moderation must have very low initial reporting level.
It's not working if a member is only reporting when couple dozens of irritations have happened.
Best would be if there would be also a positive side.
Quite complex I think.

[PlainName]

Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker?

Don't assume what I assume.

I didn't; I went from what you wrote. If that isn't what you meant then I apologise for misinterpreting it, and perhaps you could make it clearer what you did mean.

[tggzzz]

Reporting behind the scenes is something else and lurkers are not the community.

Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker? Often, reporting is preferable to public calling out because it doesn't kick off a flame war and can be handled in the (forum's) preferred way.

There is nothing in what MK wrote to justify your comment. Your "critical thinking analysis" needs improving.

Just because all crows are black birds, it doesn't follow that all black birds are crows.

[m k]

Why do you assume a non-public report must be from a lurker?

Don't assume what I assume.

I didn't; I went from what you wrote. If that isn't what you meant then I apologise for misinterpreting it, and perhaps you could make it clearer what you did mean.

"Why" in "Why do you assume" indicates that you know what I assume, obviously you can't.
Leave "why" out and the thing is very different.
My text doesn't connect reporting and lurkers.
"and" is a coordinating conjunction, both of its sides can be independent.
"And pigs fly" is a bad example, but example still.

[m k]

Lurkers are not the community, that's a given, but even an absolute lurker can be a very much, in a sense, a part of a community.
Obviously not an active part but still very much in the know of what is happening.
Has that ever happened is another thing.

But finally all this moderation stuff has a very easy solution, involved insider moderator.

[pcprogrammer]

Define lurker for us.

Do you mean someone who has not registered as a member and is just looking at what is written. This type can't report anything. No "report to moderator" button

Or do you mean someone who has registered and only looks and does not post much, or at least not in a thread that they might disagree on something written there. This type can report.

To me the involved insider moderator idea feels like it will not work either. Partiality might develop over time due to befriending some and disliking others. The forum is still in existence after many years and seems to have done well with only the few, and sadly now one less, moderators. But only long time members can tell if what happened recently has happened before.

If it will happen again, nobody knows.

As long as we are tolerant and don't go for each others throats over some disagreement, we can go a long way.

[Mark19960]

With all due respect to everyone.... if I wanted to be a cheeky bugger and talk politics or religion I would find elsewhere.

[pcprogrammer]

If you had bothered to read this thread, you would have known that it has already shifted back to no politics or religion, and that it is about a section where non electronics related projects can be shared.

[HobGoblyn]

There’s a very popular money saving forum in the UK. It used to have an off topic section called "Discussion Time"

It ended up being removed as the mods were spending 10 times more on that one section than the 50+ sections regarding money.

Trouble is, if you give your opinion of virtually anything, nowadays someone will take offence and report the post. It got to the point where so many people reported (perfectly fine) posts that the mods simply closed threads or removed them without actually having the time to moderate  them properly.

This then ended up with tons of complaints from the regular posters in that section, and in the end the site simply had no option but close it down.

[m k]

Define lurker for us.

Reading but not writing.

Do you have a bias towards the word?

[AVGresponding]

Define lurker for us.

Reading but not writing.

Do you have a bias towards the word?

I'm trying to think of the word for "writing but not reading". I'm sure it'll come to me...   

[pcprogrammer]

No, was just wondering if you are aware of the fact that non registered readers can't report.

Registered members are part of the community, and you stated that lurkers are not the community. But I agree that they should not easily report something they don't like, and if they do the moderator can weigh this in when making a decision.

[Zeyneb]

General Technical Chat was General Chat before the word Technical was inserted. But still you see some very tenuous topics started with flimsy justification as technical.

The idea was to have a suble reminder to try and keep new threads at least somewhat on-topic.

Ok, I understand now Dave and others would prefer to keep this titled General Technical Chat. And that is also the section where social, political, economic and humorous charged posts will go.

I think it is important to start the new Off Topic Projects section in a good way. And make it very clear to members to distinguish if their post should be in Off Topic Projects or General Technical Chat. You know, if Off Topic Projects doesn't really catch on the posts will end up in General Technical Chat.

So how about this: Invite members to prepare some appealing/interesting posts for the new Off Topic Projects section, show them to Dave to determine Yes, this is what I meant for the new section. And when the new section is created launch those posts all at once.

Maybe Dave can already share the intended description text for Off Topic Projects. You know, the text below the section headers.

Also maybe Dave could recruit some more moderators, maybe to start only with the authority to move posts in the right sections.

From the point of view of a forum member, when you open a forum section you skim through the post titles and judge if your intended post will match the relevance/tone/culture of the section, if that is the case and the section has recent activity you'll get the confidence your post will be received well and get responses.

[m k]

No, was just wondering if you are aware of the fact that non registered readers can't report.

Registered members are part of the community, and you stated that lurkers are not the community. But I agree that they should not easily report something they don't like, and if they do the moderator can weigh this in when making a decision.

Ok.
Lurker has had a negative tone but that's a long ago, back then member and post counts were a prestige.
Now bots are probably hogging much more and ad-money is not after quality anyway.

But with community we clearly have some different nuances.
All registered ones are members, later they can come a part of a community, but not necessary.
Now and here we are also occasionally talking what it is to be a part of a community of a community.

I think you are also misunderstanding that insider moderator part.
There moderator is second, first is member and member of community of community.
Depth is completely different, there person part comes first.
Now somebody may even think that being rude is ok if you just stay somewhat on topic.

I wouldn't be a good moderator.
It's probably a cultural thing but first I'd close the back channel.
Say it out loud or be silent but stop mumbling.
I wouldn't hesitate with short penalties or thread splittings either.
What I would hesitate is deleting and locking, excluding illegals of course.
Maybe temporary, not permanent could be my motto.

[pcprogrammer]

Actually the moderators here are also part of the community. They do participate in and even start threads of their own, and that can be problematic, but it seems to have worked very well despite the recent events. I don't think there is a need to change that part of the system.

But take the TEA thread as an example and ask the question if it would have had a different outcome when the moderation had been done by a participating member of the thread. Yes he/she would probably have had a better understanding about some of the posts made and maybe taken milder action, but then other members would most likely still have felt the need for more moderation. When a small group thinks they are in the right, no matter what action taken, it will always fail because they will not back down. You know, because they are right.

I too would be to opinionated for the job.

For now it is all just speculation on what the outcome here will be. Eventually it is up to Dave to decide on a new section or not. It is his castle.

[pcprogrammer]

Ok, I understand now Dave and others would prefer to keep this titled General Technical Chat. And that is also the section where social, political, economic and humorous charged posts will go.

Well I guess you understood wrong. The General Technical Chat is being misused for "social, political, economic and humorous charged posts". As long as no one complaints about a thread or one of the moderates spots it and feels the need to lock or delete it, they are more or less allowed.

I think it is important to start the new Off Topic Projects section in a good way. And make it very clear to members to distinguish if their post should be in Off Topic Projects or General Technical Chat. You know, if Off Topic Projects doesn't really catch on the posts will end up in General Technical Chat.

So how about this: Invite members to prepare some appealing/interesting posts for the new Off Topic Projects section, show them to Dave to determine Yes, this is what I meant for the new section. And when the new section is created launch those posts all at once.

Maybe Dave can already share the intended description text for Off Topic Projects. You know, the text below the section headers.

Also maybe Dave could recruit some more moderators, maybe to start only with the authority to move posts in the right sections.

From the point of view of a forum member, when you open a forum section you skim through the post titles and judge if your intended post will match the relevance/tone/culture of the section, if that is the case and the section has recent activity you'll get the confidence your post will be received well and get responses.

In itself a reasonable idea, but lets not get ahead of ourselves. The poll still leans to no, and it is up to Dave to think it through first.

[PlainName]

Say it out loud or be silent but stop mumbling

I think that's the wrong approach. Sure, for trivial stuff it might be fine, but for stuff that needs moderating there are problems:

1. Perhaps the complaint isn't valid (misunderstood rules or something). If that had been brought up in public there would be arguments, probably pedantic and leading off on tangents to other arguments). Afterwards, the complainer would have his card marked by some subset of participants. On the other hand, a non-public complaint can be settled by a quiet word from the mod setting out why it's not a valid complaint.

2. Perhaps the complaint is valid. Bring it up in public and... well, repeat of 1. I am sure. A non-public complaint can see the mod have a quiet word with the transgressor, and it's more likely to be settled then because there would be no big ego losing face as there would be in public.

We used to get pop-up single-post vendors flogging stuff, and a following trail of posts telling them to push off or questioning what they're about, etc. But we don't get that now because instead of whining people hit the compaint button and a mod just goes and deals with it, no fuss. Sometimes it's a pukka post and the mod leaves it, and the difference is there isn't a long thread of complaints to go with it.

[tggzzz]

Say it out loud or be silent but stop mumbling

I think that's the wrong approach. Sure, for trivial stuff it might be fine, but for stuff that needs moderating there are problems:

1. Perhaps the complaint isn't valid (misunderstood rules or something). If that had been brought up in public there would be arguments, probably pedantic and leading off on tangents to other arguments). Afterwards, the complainer would have his card marked by some subset of participants. On the other hand, a non-public complaint can be settled by a quiet word from the mod setting out why it's not a valid complaint.

That doesn't stand up to scruitiny. If it isn't valid then an open discussion will clear that up. If it is valid, then an open discussion can give the perp an early warning that peers are applying pressure.

2. Perhaps the complaint is valid. Bring it up in public and... well, repeat of 1. I am sure. A non-public complaint can see the mod have a quiet word with the transgressor, and it's more likely to be settled then because there would be no big ego losing face as there would be in public.

That doesn't stand up to scruitiny.  If a transgressor realises other people think they are transgressing, then they may speedily modify their behaviour due to peer pressure. If they aren't warned until "later", then the behaviour might have become more entrenched and so there's more face to be lost.

We used to get pop-up single-post vendors flogging stuff, and a following trail of posts telling them to push off or questioning what they're about, etc. But we don't get that now because instead of whining people hit the compaint button and a mod just goes and deals with it, no fuss. Sometimes it's a pukka post and the mod leaves it, and the difference is there isn't a long thread of complaints to go with it.

That isn't the case under discussion. When there is a clear cut case forum rules deliberately being broken for commercial gain (or equivalent) then I warn the mods so they stop on such perps.

Basically I think it cowardly and deceitful to "go behind someone's" back, and "complain to mummy" that "I don't like what Bobby Droptables is saying". Or, as in too many states, tell the Authorities "I suspect Mary Jo is a communist/capitalist enemy of the people" (delete as appropriate). When that happens, Mary Jo isn't told of the details of the accusations, so they can't set the record straight and can't discredit the evidence amd/or accuser.

There were echoes of that in the recent debacle, and they have left a bad taste in some people's mouths. That's partly why some of the departed aren't keen to return.

[PlainName]

...

You're essentially saying to get rid of the report button.

[PlainName]

deceitful to "go behind someone's" back, and "complain to mummy"

It can be disrespectful to call out someone in public. Perhaps if they sent a PM all this fuss wouldn't be necessary, but people don't. They just mouth off (for a good example, your derogatory comment designed to stir up emotion, and we're not even arguing about a complaint) and then it will progress to name calling and the like.

[PlainName]

There seems to be an assumption that if someone has a complaint then saying it in public with either get everyone telling the perp to play the game or telling the complainer they are wrong. But what's missed here is that there tend to be a few mouthy people and the rest - the majority - don't immediately pipe up. It can also be hard for someone to say they agree with something when the noisy section are shouting it down - few want to be the only one to put their head above the parapet, and you never know if there are actually many such because no-one wants to be the first.

I fully accept that there are people that are just fine stating their opinion in front of everyone, and would do so even if it's an unpopular opinion. But there are just as many, if not more, that are not comfortable doing that, and I think it's wrong not to accommodate them (and insinuate the need to hold mummy's hand or whatever).

[wilfred]

As a native speaker of American English (the source of the film Casablanca) I feel that assigning a meaning of returning to the status quo to the phrase "the usual suspects" goes a bit far.  I interpreted this, and assume a great many others interpreted it similarly, to simply mean that there are a group of people known or suspected by many to be prone to a certain behavior.  The extra meaning extracted from the film requires the entire context of usage from the film (plot, speaker, situation).

A return to the status quo may be the right answer in this case.  Or special treatment of the "usual subjects".  Or something else.  I am not wise enough to give a definitive answer here.  Dave obviously feels somewhat similarly, hence the question posed in this thread.

I think we can agree vigorously. The context in the film does suggest the local police commander wants to enjoy a peaceful (profitable) life without close scrutiny from the Germans who currently occupy Casablanca. So he does what he usually does, round up the usual local criminals and appears gainfully occupied and collecting the necessary bribes at other times.

I'm not suggesting Dave is doing this. He's trying to do something useful and I think he'd be better off returning to the way things were. It just doesn't seem worth it when trying to meet the needs of everyone on the internet is like herding cats.

[AVGresponding]

...

You're essentially saying to get rid of the report button.

Where do you get that idea? He said he uses it to report shill posts. So do I.

deceitful to "go behind someone's" back, and "complain to mummy"

It can be disrespectful to call out someone in public. Perhaps if they sent a PM all this fuss wouldn't be necessary, but people don't. They just mouth off (for a good example, your derogatory comment designed to stir up emotion, and we're not even arguing about a complaint) and then it will progress to name calling and the like.

It's not disrespectful to call someone out publicly. It is disrespectful to call them derogatory names, or deliberately misrepresent what they said.

There seems to be an assumption that if someone has a complaint then saying it in public with either get everyone telling the perp to play the game or telling the complainer they are wrong. But what's missed here is that there tend to be a few mouthy people and the rest - the majority - don't immediately pipe up. It can also be hard for someone to say they agree with something when the noisy section are shouting it down - few want to be the only one to put their head above the parapet, and you never know if there are actually many such because no-one wants to be the first.

I fully accept that there are people that are just fine stating their opinion in front of everyone, and would do so even if it's an unpopular opinion. But there are just as many, if not more, that are not comfortable doing that, and I think it's wrong not to accommodate them (and insinuate the need to hold mummy's hand or whatever).

When it's in public, if it gets unjustly shouted down, then that's the time to involve the Mods. Remember in a free and just society, not only must justice be done, it must be seen to be done.

It is not wrong to allow people to state their opinions in private; it is wrong to act on them without due process, which in the cause of justice must include some transparency. This can be achieved by anonymising/redacting names from complaints if they are used as a basis for substantial Moderator action.

[PlainName]

It is not wrong to allow people to state their opinions in private; it is wrong to act on them without due process, which in the cause of justice must include some transparency.

Where is that being suggested? Don't you think the mods will take a look and consider if there is substance or not before doing anything (or not doing anything)?

[AVGresponding]

It is not wrong to allow people to state their opinions in private; it is wrong to act on them without due process, which in the cause of justice must include some transparency.

Where is that being suggested? Don't you think the mods will take a look and consider if there is substance or not before doing anything (or not doing anything)?

In theory, of course. In practice it's not that simple, as gnif found out to his personal cost. He took substantive Moderator action (deleting posts en masse) based on reports received, and his (self-admittedly limited) understanding of the nature of the TEAnonymous thread.

On reflection he realised this was a mistake, and (wrongly in my opinion, but it's his life) stepped down as a Moderator subsequently.

Now, if there had been some transparency in the interpretation of the received reports, it might have been possible to defuse the situation before it escalated to the deletion of posts and the mini-exodus of TEAnonymous members, some of whom have made considerable contributions to that thread and the EEVBlog forum in general.


As ever, 20/20 is hindsight, and all this is just my personal opinion on the matter.

[pcprogrammer]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns weaponry, can help in making a more founded decision.

Edit: Changed guns to weaponry.

[AVGresponding]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

[ebastler]

I wonder if a change of the original post [...] can help in making a more founded decision.

I think this would also need a new poll (and hence a new thread?). Can't change the poll question while keeping the old answer counts which referred to a different question. I doubt that all voters will be checking back regularly and amending their vote to answer the updated question.

[Zeyneb]

I wonder if a change of the original post [...] can help in making a more founded decision.

I think this would also need a new poll (and hence a new thread?). Can't change the poll question while keeping the old answer counts which referred to a different question. I doubt that all voters will be checking back regularly and amending their vote to answer the updated question.

Yeah, I agree. A poll where Dave suggests the Off-Topic Project section a show and tell for things like car/home renovation. Where no politics, religion and weaponry is allowed.

EDIT: I do actually think the "What did you buy today? Post your latest purchase!" thread is a good example for the Off-Topic Project section.

[pcprogrammer]

I wonder if a change of the original post [...] can help in making a more founded decision.

I think this would also need a new poll (and hence a new thread?). Can't change the poll question while keeping the old answer counts which referred to a different question. I doubt that all voters will be checking back regularly and amending their vote to answer the updated question.

Yes you got a point there. But some did change their vote though, going on what is posted a little back. And Dave did change it already by adding "(Assuming the hot-button topic rules REMAIN)"

Still the number of voters is very low for such a big community. Hard to believe only less then 1% being more active on the forum, and care about this.

[pcprogrammer]

Yeah, I agree. A poll where Dave suggests the Off-Topic Project section a show and tell for things like car/home renovation. Where no politics, religion and weaponry is allowed.

EDIT: I do actually think the "What did you buy today? Post your latest purchase!" thread is a good example for the Off-Topic Project section.

I was thinking of what sections would be nice to have next to cooking. To allow for something like a "coworker harassing you" or "how to start your own company" maybe a "Life advice" section.

Furthermore indeed something for house and or car renovation. And a toys section to post about your train set or other construction toys.

Just to name some.

[m k]

Say it out loud or be silent but stop mumbling

I think that's the wrong approach.

1. I as a moderator would mark that complainer and moderate that subset if it appears.

2. I as a moderator would kick a fragile public butt of that big ego, if necessary.

Being public is not changing anything but putting shy voices down and revealing bad actions, all others are more or less inside a readers head.
Shy voices are always unfortunate, you'll never learn their adventures.
I'm also talking from this sub forum perspective, newbies and kids must be dealt differently.

Any kind of moderation is fast if it is present.
Community moderation means that actual moderators are not present until they are summoned.
If reporting is the method then everything else is secondary.

True moderation, where leveling the mood is the goal, is also person first, content second.
It's also very very time consuming.

[ebastler]

1. I as a moderator would mark that complainer and moderate that subset if it appears.
2. I as a moderator would kick a fragile public butt of that big ego, if necessary.

I as a reader cannot understand either of those two sentences. Could you explain please? I think some meaning was lost as you tried for a clever and colorful wording.

What do you mean by "mark" the complainer, and what "subset" are yo referring to? Whose butt and ego are you talking about -- the ones of a person who made a questionable post, or of a person who reported a post, or yet someone else's?

[magic]

I was thinking of what sections would be nice to have next to cooking. To allow for something like a "coworker harassing you" or "how to start your own company" maybe a "Life advice" section.

I suggest a section for suggestions.
Wait, there is one already at the bottom, why can't you go there?

There is no point having sections without content, and there are already a few that are basically dead and could be nuked with no loss to anyone and actually with an increase in exposure for the few unfortunate souls that start their threads there.

By the way, aren't you guys busy writing the new TEA constitution, which by the way appears to be the most active threads in its corresponding section?
 

[pcprogrammer]

Well that new section might soon be closed again. Just read "Emptiness" and you will see.

The name of the other one indicated a possible "constitution", but upon reading the thread you would see that the name is ill chosen and "rules of conduct" might be better. There is good behavior advice in it, if I say so myself.

And why is that section left almost empty, just because the current TEA thread users are happy where it is now.

I guess that the cooking section was also frowned upon at first and now it has reasonable activity, so why not other sections for interests besides electronics.

[AVGresponding]

Well that new section might soon be closed again. Just read "Emptiness" and you will see.

The name of the other one indicated a possible "constitution", but upon reading the thread you would see that the name is ill chosen and "rules of conduct" might be better. There is good behavior advice in it, if I say so myself.

And why is that section left almost empty, just because the current TEA thread users are happy where it is now.

I guess that the cooking section was also frowned upon at first and now it has reasonable activity, so why not other sections for interests besides electronics.

Or because they are unaware of its existence. I only found it by chance. You're assuming all current TEAnonymous users are happy with it where it is; you are mistaken.

[Black Phoenix]

I would not mind a Photography section. I have a portfolio that I would love to show and even learn new techniques and get inspiration, while also being able to help, as a hobby that unfortunately currently don't have time to do (more motivation -  life issues).

[m k]

1. I as a moderator would mark that complainer and moderate that subset if it appears.
2. I as a moderator would kick a fragile public butt of that big ego, if necessary.

I as a reader cannot understand either of those two sentences. Could you explain please? I think some meaning was lost as you tried for a clever and colorful wording.

What do you mean by "mark" the complainer, and what "subset" are yo referring to? Whose butt and ego are you talking about -- the ones of a person who made a questionable post, or of a person who reported a post, or yet someone else's?

Are you assuming that marking is something negative?
All parties are from dunkemhigh's post and I also followed Dave's tip that quoting everything is not always good.

Subset against the marked one and big ego are followed closely and moderated if necessary.

[pcprogrammer]

Well that new section might soon be closed again. Just read "Emptiness" and you will see.

The name of the other one indicated a possible "constitution", but upon reading the thread you would see that the name is ill chosen and "rules of conduct" might be better. There is good behavior advice in it, if I say so myself.

And why is that section left almost empty, just because the current TEA thread users are happy where it is now.

I guess that the cooking section was also frowned upon at first and now it has reasonable activity, so why not other sections for interests besides electronics.

Or because they are unaware of its existence. I only found it by chance. You're assuming all current TEAnonymous users are happy with it where it is; you are mistaken.

It has been discussed in length in the discussion thread about TEA and several of the current EEVBlog TEA thread participants where in that thread, but if you feel that it should be addressed to the greater group of them, place a post about it in the current EEVBlog TEA thread. Sure it is off topic there, but if feelings are strong about it, I guess it should be addressed.

And I'm specifically mentioning EEVBlog TEA thread here to avoid confusion with the new TEA on groups.io.

Dave created the section for both, but some of those who moved to the new TEA on groups.io expressed no desire to make use of it.

And yes, I don't know about the feelings of the current EEVBlog TEA thread users, but they seemed to have moved on with business, more or less, as usual, looking at what is being posted in the EEVBlog TEA thread.

[tggzzz]

...

You're essentially saying to get rid of the report button.

Now you are deliberately being a twat by inventing strawman arguments.
You deliberately choose to make it difficult to follow what someone else did write by omitting not only the context but also a link to the context.
I am finding it difficult to distinguish your tactics from a troll's tactics.

I refer you, and any other reader, to the first paragraph I wrote indicating that I use the report button in some limited cases...
"That isn't the case under discussion. When there is a clear cut case forum rules deliberately being broken for commercial gain (or equivalent) then I warn the mods so they stop on such perps."

[PlainName]

Thank you for your considered and definitely not flame-baiting response.

[tggzzz]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

[Brumby]

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

So true.

This is where "the vibe" has been so successful for so long.  It is flexible enough so that things do not snap the moment a line is stepped over - but allows for retreat back behind the line.  With just a little tolerance, this approach can work well - as it has done on the EEVblog for years.

[RJSV]

   Some organizations crack-down, for indiscretions, but put 'offenders' on a timed  absence...That way folks won't feel so fatal involvement, with so-called permanent bans, but have the time (or time-out) to contemplate.

[AVGresponding]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.

If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.

[N0NB]

Dave,

I think you have steered away from the idea of a wide open anything goes forum which is a good idea.  Targeted off-topic forums are likely much more manageable.  Areas like hobbies or work interests would seem to lend themselves to moderation.  Instant hot button topics really don't lend themselves to moderation but rather subject everyone to polarizing cries over "free speech" issues which never seem to end well.

Many years ago, before what is currently known as social media, I was a member of a Web forum who eventually was chosen to be a moderator.  About the same time there emerged a clique on the forum who mostly interacted with each other but were polluting the various forums with junk posts mostly in the vein of junior high humor.  It didn't matter if one of the clique was actually trying to have a serious post on a subject, the other hyenas quickly descended and started their shtick.  The administrator created an off-topic forum as a means to cope and for a time most of the garbage stayed there.  Over time, like honey, it attracted newer forum members who weren't aware of the history and who eventually got chewed up and spat out by the clique.  A lot of folk that just wanted information on their project got sucked in and it didn't take long for word to get around to other like-minded forums that this particular one was one to avoid.

Another pastime of the clique was to ride the fence as it were to push the limit regarding the forum rules.  Eventually, I too had my fill, resigned, and simply stopped visiting the place regularly.  As a mod I was left with few tools other than deleting posts which would pop right back up.  Playing whack-a-mole for any length of time isn't my idea of fun.  The admin was largely MIA at the time and only he could suspend posting privileges or ban members.  Once the clique figured that out it was game over.

In the years since I checked it out a few times and the clique seemed to be about the only activity left.  I always thought it was a sad ending for a site that in the early years I was a member was a lot of fun and had a lot of mutual respect and valuable input into each others' projects.

The choice is yours, but I know what I would not do.

[tggzzz]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.

If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.

That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.

The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.

[m k]

Since everything is said at least seven times is it time for conclusion.

First there where Chat, later it was labeled General Technical Chat.
First there where also TEA "chat", later it turned to more serious and even later it tried to go back, partially.

Now a middle ground between old Chat and General Technical Chat is possibly needed.

Current "Gas Armageddon" is clearly showing that content is not the issue, it's nuances of presentation.
Even clearer(ly?) if back channel moderation there is non existent.

Maybe all that is needed is just a bit of shuffling.
Rename General to RL Activities, Other Communities to General and move General Technical Chat to new General.
Relabel old TEA to more hardcore and new TEA to TEA Chat.

New hierarchy can then go so that too light stuff from everywhere can be splitted to General.
And if something in General General is big enough it can have its own section, like Cooking and TEA Chat, at least photography, cars and wood working are also mentioned.

[tautech]

Since everything is said at least seven times is it time for conclusion.

Careful now, that might imply it's time for commonsense to be applied, something that's not that common. 

[tggzzz]

Since everything is said at least seven times is it time for conclusion.
...
Maybe all that is needed is just a bit of shuffling.
...
New hierarchy can then go so that too light stuff from everywhere can be splitted to General.

Obsessing about hierarchies is an exercise in non-productive deck chair shuffling. Hierarchies do, however, provide a good starting point for barrack room laywers and officious busybodies. Academics even get brownie points for renaming/moving species

All tree hierarchies are wrong in most ways, and right in one way. The best they can hope for is to indicate is where something shouldn't be.

Most people simply use the "Show unread posts since last visit" and "Show new replies to your posts" and "Search" links to find stuff. Those are designed to ignore hierarchies.

[m k]

It's not our hierarchy, it's maintenance hierarchy.

[AVGresponding]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.

If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.

That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.

The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.

Something we find in great abundance, in the people actually responsible for making the rules.

Oh, wait...

[m k]

Maintenance Hierarchy would also enable all kind of niche sections, like Hanging Ministers.

Possible hot section would be Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues.

[RJSV]

   A couple hours, (or several), viewing the posts that stray OFF-TOPIC, in 'Energy Armageddon', it just seems like a pile of partial excursions into distractions, partial personal slurs, indecipherable sarcasm, and almost no electronic supply-chain.
   I believe that's a mess, for the moderators, (and that's only my posts...lol).  Moderators, I bet, don't really want to wade into a big mass of upset, slandering or 'partial' slanders...whatever that is.  Then, they (Moderators) have to face all manner of criticism, like:
   "I tried to mention the evil, of the fat slobs, in Lower Slabikia, and the Mods were UNFAIR, and deleted my rants..."   ...(sigh).
   That's a lot of work, sorting thru all those non-topic posts.  And, I've been guilty of doing that, trying the limits, boundaries of what can be posted.

[tggzzz]

Maintenance Hierarchy would also enable all kind of niche sections, like Hanging Ministers.

Possible hot section would be Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues.

As long as all the fiddlers and diddlers play there and not elsewhere, it would probably be good

[tautech]

   A couple hours, (or several), viewing the posts that stray OFF-TOPIC, in 'Energy Armageddon', it just seems like a pile of partial excursions into distractions, partial personal slurs, indecipherable sarcasm, and almost no electronic supply-chain.
   I believe that's a mess, for the moderators, (and that's only my posts...lol).  Moderators, I bet, don't really want to wade into a big mass of upset, slandering or 'partial' slanders...whatever that is.  Then, they (Moderators) have to face all manner of criticism, like:
   "I tried to mention the evil, of the fat slobs, in Lower Slabikia, and the Mods were UNFAIR, and deleted my rants..."   ...(sigh).
   That's a lot of work, sorting thru all those non-topic posts.  And, I've been guilty of doing that, trying the limits, boundaries of what can be posted.

Yet it's still civil with punch and counter punch thrown, just as any good debate should be.
As the EU is the other side of the world to us in NZ I for one have learnt some from that thread from the differing POV's.

[m k]

I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.

I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.

I'd say also that there community moderation failed.
Obviously no completely, but pretty much too slow it was.

Dedicated section moderator could have spotted the case earlier and moved the thread to beginners section, not because of OP but because of assumed answers in TE section.
The badge here is also not exactly moderator, maintenance is more accurate.

When I wrote this 90% of active forum hits was guests, is that a norm, I think it is.
Some are bots and some are like me who is usually surfing offline.
But some are later newbies, maintenance is also for them.

Is moderator a negative word?
East and west have different mind sets.
Eastern king was good for people, nobles were bad and every now and then king had to whip them.
Western king was with the nobles so nobody whipped them, occasionally Pope was also with them.

Some times people in the know have a feel to say it.
Not because of prestige or something like that, just shearing is enough.
Is there then any real differences if that continues after some maintenance operations.

[tggzzz]

I'd say also that there community moderation failed.
Obviously no completely, but pretty much too slow it was.

It worked well enough for a very long time.

History shows that all cooperative communities have occasional bust ups and schisms.

Nothing else works all the time.

Choose your poison wisely, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

[pcprogrammer]

.......

I just looked at the thread you mentioned and this behavior can be seen a lot on this forum. The more established members do like their technical debates, without considering what the original poster needs to know.

At some point BillyO (message #45 and #74) tries to steer things a bit, but it does not help. Maybe because he is also a newbie? (36 posts) And this seems to be weighed on this forum, when looking at the recent discussions we had about for example the TEA thread.

But moderation on something like this is difficult. There is no real off topic drift, because it is all about the needed sample rate and bandwidth to reproduce a signal on a scope screen. So even for a more involved moderator it would be difficult to asses what is needed in this situation.

There is no 100% foolproof solution for the case at hand, and with that I mean the whole forum of course.

[tggzzz]

.......

I just looked at the thread you mentioned and this behavior can be seen a lot on this forum. The more established members do like their technical debates, without considering what the original poster needs to know.

At some point BillyO (message #45 and #74) tries to steer things a bit, but it does not help. Maybe because he is also a newbie? (36 posts) And this seems to be weighed on this forum, when looking at the recent discussions we had about for example the TEA thread.

But moderation on something like this is difficult. There is no real off topic drift, because it is all about the needed sample rate and bandwidth to reproduce a signal on a scope screen. So even for a more involved moderator it would be difficult to asses what is needed in this situation.

There is no 100% foolproof solution for the case at hand, and with that I mean the whole forum of course.

Precisely, except...

Moderation on something like that is not "difficult", it is irrelevant. If someone wants such moderation, I would direct them to stakexchange or seaboard.

If such moderation ever became relevant, this forum would die, and would deserve to die!

[EEVblog]

I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.

I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.

Was there something wrong with that thread that I missed? 

[tggzzz]

I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.

I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.

Was there something wrong with that thread that I missed? 

You didn't miss anything. Rest easy 

[m k]

But moderation on something like this is difficult.

Difficulty depends on the height of the horse, from ivory tower it's very difficult but among friends it's very easy.
Obviously, and even among friends, different actual actions can change things.

[m k]

Moderation on something like that is not "difficult", it is irrelevant.

I don't understand what exactly in it is irrelevant.
At least participants experience of the thread is relevant, all of them.
Shy voices must be guided, maybe guarded.

Grumpy old men are not exactly a disappearing resource but their electronics can be.
More vocal folks will also always dominate, difference is only in contents.

Community moderation will work indefinitely if community stays homogeneous enough.
And fails instantly when heterogeneous goes over the tipping point, simply because different groups have so different demands.

Bringing up stackexchange indicates that your moderator is preventing things.
My moderator is maintaining things.
And Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues of Maintenance Hierarchy would handle nit pickers.

Community moderation of heterogeneous community can still work but then its homogeneous parts must be, at least partially separated.
If Other Communities here get Cars section it can finally and quite easily dominate the traffic of the whole place but would that be a bad thing.
Forums can also split under the same roof, so Dave would still benefit, I guess.

[m k]

I think moderation is still very open issue, probably because its shape here is something else than what I thought.
But to get the correct response I believe a new thread must come from Dave.

I'd say that TE thread of 4x scope samples is a good example.
Dave is #79, OP thanked #11.

Was there something wrong with that thread that I missed? 

No, and what tggzzz said.

Maybe some insights for one question.
Would, from maintenance team point of view, rotating active member moderator, if that kind of thought has been up, of TEA thread have exploded the thing already years ago?

[tggzzz]

Moderation on something like that is not "difficult", it is irrelevant.

I don't understand what exactly in it is irrelevant.
At least participants experience of the thread is relevant, all of them.
Shy voices must be guided, maybe guarded.

Grumpy old men are not exactly a disappearing resource but their electronics can be.
More vocal folks will also always dominate, difference is only in contents.

Community moderation will work indefinitely if community stays homogeneous enough.
And fails instantly when heterogeneous goes over the tipping point, simply because different groups have so different demands.

Bringing up stackexchange indicates that your moderator is preventing things.
My moderator is maintaining things.
And Thread Topicness and Section Hierarchy Issues of Maintenance Hierarchy would handle nit pickers.

Community moderation of heterogeneous community can still work but then its homogeneous parts must be, at least partially separated.
If Other Communities here get Cars section it can finally and quite easily dominate the traffic of the whole place but would that be a bad thing.
Forums can also split under the same roof, so Dave would still benefit, I guess.

We seem to be in agreement!

My point was solely that on that thread there was nothing that needed either formal nor community moderation. It was trickling along nicely with the usual interplay of viewpoints. That is typical of this forum (unlike elsewhere) and is one of this forums strengths. OTOH if someone simply wants to cut and past "solutions" (usually overly simplistic and without comprehending them), then stackexchange is ideal - but boring and sterile.

Your "tipping point" divergence is relevant. History shows that all communities will evolve and have schisms. Whether they can coexist in different areas under the same roof is less clear. Often an amicable split is the best option.

It is all shades of grey

[AVGresponding]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.

If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.

That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.

The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.

So, no rules is bad, inflexible rules is bad, quite obviously because they are extremes. Therefore something in the middle is good. Herein lies the problem. Everyone in the world will have a position somewhere between those two extremes (and I suppose there are a few nutters who are on the actual extremes), but everyone will have a different position. So, whose view do we accept as a nominal "norm" to which we can all abide? Yours, I suppose?

[tggzzz]

And can we now stop this please and get back on what this thread is about.

Do we want a new section to post non electronics related topics in or not.

I wonder if a change of the original post with the latest view on it being for other hobbies only, and still no politics, religion and guns, can help in making a more founded decision.

I'd change "guns" to "weaponry", otherwise you'd likely get some smartass posting about crossbows, combat knives or somesuch and saying "it's not a gun, so I can post about it".

Pens can be more devastating than swords, and thats without using them as a stiletto.

When rules become explicity codified in writing, barrack room lawyers and officious busybodies have a field day.

Extend that argument to its logical conclusion and we should have no codified rules at all.

If someone uses a pen to stab someone, they are by definition using it as a weapon. If someone uses a pen to write rhetoric that incites people to violence, again, it's being weaponised. If we say discussion about weaponry is not allowed, then the logical assumption is that discussing how to stab someone with a pen, or how to trigger a riot by writing inflammatory things, would be against the rules.
Equally, a discussion about how to use a pen to provide a breathing tube in an ad hoc trachaeostomy, or how to write a letter designed to calm an angry argument, would not be forbidden.

That is the approach promoted by anacharists. It is beguiling to 6th formers (i.e. 16-8yo UK schoolchildren), but a little consideration leads people to realise it is immensely destructive.

The trick is to find the right balance between rigidmrules and anarchy. That requires humility and wisdom, both rare attributes.

So, no rules is bad, inflexible rules is bad, quite obviously because they are extremes. Therefore something in the middle is good. Herein lies the problem. Everyone in the world will have a position somewhere between those two extremes (and I suppose there are a few nutters who are on the actual extremes), but everyone will have a different position. So, whose view do we accept as a nominal "norm" to which we can all abide? Yours, I suppose?

Yup, that sums up the tension. Nothing new there.

I am not stupid enough to claim to have a solution that has eluded humanity for 2 or 3 millennia. Neither am I a dictator/God.