Author Topic: Insane overengineering of a car headlight  (Read 18027 times)

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Offline ejeffrey

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2022, 08:16:51 pm »

[...]  Progress is good and unstoppable, but it can get expensive !

Fraser

I think you put your finger on what annoys many people!  -  Consider the possibility that the cost of almost everything is going up faster than wages? 

Surely it is acceptable have simple (but safe and adequate) headlamps on a basic car?

I get this, but cars are one of the few areas where technology trickle down is working really well and even cheap cars are getting better and better (safer, more functional, more efficient, lower maintenance, more comfortable, and longer lasting) without getting much more expensive.  A common complaint is that "the average new car in the US now costs over $40,000" which is true but mostly explained by people buying more expensive vehicles.  For instance in the US SUVs and pickup trucks have totally taken over the market, and luxury vehicles are much more common than in the past.  But if you look at basic compact cars they are only slightly more expensive inflation adjusted than they were a few decades ago (OK, I'm only consider pre-COVID world without insane markups).  But they last much longer, have far less maintenance and fuel costs, and retain more resale value.  Modern economy cars are overall a lower cost of ownership than previous generations paid, while at the same time providing dramatically better safety and comfort.

This progress has been uneven, and some individual features have increased costs or been maintenance problems, but overall the trend has been very good at least until recently.  It's too early to see how the most recent few years of technology advancements will fare in the long term, and car manufacturers are certainly looking at ways to subvert this such as subscription features that will allow them to keep extracting money from older vehicles or render them substantially worse than when new.

It is certainly true that wages haven't kept up with the cost of living and that makes everything hurt, but mostly the cost of cars is not a significant part of the problem.  To the extent that cars are even involved it is mostly that people are buying more cars, driving them more, and buying more expensive classes of vehicles.  I'm not saying people are necessarily being irresponsible or stupid either: the increase in driving is largely caused by changing housing, work, and education needs which again are factors that suffer from wage stagnation.
 
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Offline ace1903

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2022, 08:27:04 pm »
Quote
Realistically, LED headlamps are going to do min. 15,000 hours before replacement is needed, and probably 30,000 hours is achievable.
One my relative had junkyard (don't know proper word for metals recycling facility) and I once saw pile of headlamps received from dealership all almost new.
Like one hundred of them, in theory worth 100.000$ but in practice he needed to pay to be disposed in landfill. Polycarbonate is difficult to work with,  so no one was able to take aluminum and other metals out.
MTBF for single LED on desk is not the same as assembly in the car where vibrations are present, thermal and humidity cycling. There also will be some capacitor that will fail because at summer in enclosed space near the engine 85C is not unusual. I took several of them apart and most common fault was that single led from turning indicator failed rendering whole assembly unusable.
Maybe my general opinion is based on faulty series from specific manufacturer but 15,000 is hardly to be believed.     
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2022, 08:27:51 pm »
Realistically, LED headlamps are going to do min. 15,000 hours before replacement is needed, and probably 30,000 hours is achievable. 

My car while driving has averaged about 30 mph, so that would be over 450,000 miles for this car, assuming the lamps are on all the time, which itself is unlikely.  I have seen almost no cars on the road with failed LED headlamps, although one or two with failed DRL lights (usually one or two LEDs in the whole assembly, so more of a cosmetic issue.)

I guess the problem is when the cost of repair is large, but the chance of failure is low, the average person might see no change in the cost of running a car, but there is a risk of being stung with say a $1,000 bill.

It's a bit like how a car can run perfectly fine for 5 years and then suffer a catastrophic engine failure e.g. snapped timing belt.  The chance is very low, but the consequence is very high.

For those unable to budget for these types of events, I suppose that's what a warranty is for.  Personally I prefer to save my money and just budget for an event like this.  So far, even though I own a German car, this has worked out cheaper than buying the warranty.

US collision rate is 1.5 collisions per 1M vehicle miles.  Assuming a well taken care of vehicle can last 200,000 miles,  it is expected to be involved in 0.3 collisions in its life.    If the replacement cost of 2 headlamps is $2000,  the mathematical expectation for the owner of the fancy lights is $600!

Do the same math for every other over-engineered and overpriced part in your car, and you begin to see the outline of a cost explosion...    -  if you are a shareholder, then  8)  ....   if not, then  :(
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2022, 08:39:43 pm »

[...]  Progress is good and unstoppable, but it can get expensive !

Fraser

I think you put your finger on what annoys many people!  -  Consider the possibility that the cost of almost everything is going up faster than wages? 

Surely it is acceptable have simple (but safe and adequate) headlamps on a basic car?

I get this, but cars are one of the few areas where technology trickle down is working really well and even cheap cars are getting better and better (safer, more functional, more efficient, lower maintenance, more comfortable, and longer lasting) without getting much more expensive.  A common complaint is that "the average new car in the US now costs over $40,000" which is true but mostly explained by people buying more expensive vehicles.  For instance in the US SUVs and pickup trucks have totally taken over the market, and luxury vehicles are much more common than in the past.  But if you look at basic compact cars they are only slightly more expensive inflation adjusted than they were a few decades ago (OK, I'm only consider pre-COVID world without insane markups).  But they last much longer, have far less maintenance and fuel costs, and retain more resale value.  Modern economy cars are overall a lower cost of ownership than previous generations paid, while at the same time providing dramatically better safety and comfort.

This progress has been uneven, and some individual features have increased costs or been maintenance problems, but overall the trend has been very good at least until recently.  It's too early to see how the most recent few years of technology advancements will fare in the long term, and car manufacturers are certainly looking at ways to subvert this such as subscription features that will allow them to keep extracting money from older vehicles or render them substantially worse than when new.

It is certainly true that wages haven't kept up with the cost of living and that makes everything hurt, but mostly the cost of cars is not a significant part of the problem.  To the extent that cars are even involved it is mostly that people are buying more cars, driving them more, and buying more expensive classes of vehicles.  I'm not saying people are necessarily being irresponsible or stupid either: the increase in driving is largely caused by changing housing, work, and education needs which again are factors that suffer from wage stagnation.


Buyers are part of the problem, choosing more expensive goods than they can actually afford (cars, phones, etc.) -  that is certainly not a new phenomenon, of course!

That said, the average used car in the US sold for a whopping $29,969 in December 2021, according to Edmunds. That’s up from an average of $23,185 one year prior, nearly 30%.

What would the prices be like if people refused to pay this much? -  it seems to me that most people are limited only by what the bank is willing to lend them, whether we are talking about cars or houses...
or headlights!
 

Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2022, 09:22:56 pm »
Even entry level Dacias do have now LED headlights, so there must be now much cheaper LED headlight assemblies.

I drove a Skoda Octavia recently (while my Golf was in for service) which had mixed LED main beam and halogen high beam.  It was odd... but I suppose not an unreasonable compromise there.

But absolutely becoming commonplace.  I agree that it should be made easier to replace the modules if they go bad.  To be honest if they are in commonplace cars like Dacia, VW group, Ford, PSA, then they will become available on the OEM market anyway as there will be demand for these parts when 1 million+ cars are made.

The thing that's interesting is the average age of a car on the UK roads has been going up [1] (and the number of cars over 13 years old is 3x higher than it was in 2000, whereas the total number of cars is only up 50%), so if anything cars are becoming more reliable despite the increase in technology, because they're certainly not economic write offs and probably things like ACC and AEB reduce the chance of a serious accident.  I can say the AEB in my Golf has warned me well before I noticed an impending pile up - it hasn't ever been the difference between an accident and not but it's certainly going to be the case for some drivers.

The high prices of used cars are more an indication of high demand for modern vehicles whilst semiconductor supplies are squeezed.  High used prices are good news for car manufacturers.  They make newer cars look more attractive, and consequentially leases are cheaper.  I always thought this idea of a car losing 25% of its value once you drive it off the forecourt to be a bit strange, if you think about it, it really doesn't make any sense.  Perhaps this blip in the market is going to be more permanent.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/veh02-licensed-cars (VEH0207)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 09:29:32 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2022, 10:13:43 pm »

If new prices are high enough, and supplies are low enough, used cars can only go through the roof...

At some point, it becomes cheaper to use Uber...
 

Offline amykTopic starter

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2022, 04:14:47 am »
Bah! We don't need all of these things... The old way was cheaper and simpler.

Safety Glass - Non laminated was cheaper
Fuel injection - Carbs were great just a simple mechanical device, none of these new fangled computers telling MY engine how to run!
Seat belts - Just adds cost and besides isn't it safer for the passengers to be thrown clear of the wreck?
Airbags - It's a plot to sell more airbags after a crash by the automotive cabal!
Crumple Zones - Who needs all of that complicated engineering and fancy materials. I want my engine to pushed into the passenger compartment after the crash, it's faster to check for damage that way.
Radial Tires - Man give me back my bias-ply retreads, another conspiracy!
Anti-lock brakes - Again with the computers? My old non-power assisted drums worked fine.
Power steering - Just more over-engineered extras I get a free workout when parking!
etc. etc. etc...

Seriously the only person who would complain about modern headlights is someone who has never driven a car with them.
There's a difference between insane overengineering with planned obolescence and multiple points of failure, and simple reliable systems which are actually worth their cost. A seatbelt is the perfect example of the latter.

I agree with the others here about how much worse the headlights on newer cars are --- both from the perspective of the driver in the car with one, as well as in the oncoming car. They are brighter, but that's actually worse for driving because you end up with much more contrast (that sharp cutoff) between the bright and dark area, and it really messes with the eyes' light adaptation. You end up with an area of high visibility right in front, and much worse off to the sides where moving objects might appear from. The older lights were dimmer, but had a wider and softer fade-out, so your eyes aren't only adapting to the very bright spot in front and can actually see better to the sides.

All the talk about these fancy systems keeping the bright spot "in your lane" is the complete opposite of what good headlights should do - provide even illumination at a brightness that doesn't blind oncoming drivers. Maybe the focus can be slightly brighter, but there's a reason night driving is more dangerous, and it's not because of the darkness --- it's because of the contrast. During the day, you can see hazards from all around because it's bright and even illumination. At night, all you have is a "tunnel of light", and making that brighter while keeping everything else just as dark isn't going to improve things.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 04:22:09 am by amyk »
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2022, 05:49:08 am »
Mike ('s electric stuff) did a video of a fancy headlight too, in case you missed it.

Car headlights had a surge in the late '90's. Prior to that they were universally terrible.
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Offline tooki

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2022, 10:04:48 am »
There's a difference between insane overengineering with planned obolescence and multiple points of failure, and simple reliable systems which are actually worth their cost. A seatbelt is the perfect example of the latter.

I agree with the others here about how much worse the headlights on newer cars are --- both from the perspective of the driver in the car with one, as well as in the oncoming car. They are brighter, but that's actually worse for driving because you end up with much more contrast (that sharp cutoff) between the bright and dark area, and it really messes with the eyes' light adaptation. You end up with an area of high visibility right in front, and much worse off to the sides where moving objects might appear from. The older lights were dimmer, but had a wider and softer fade-out, so your eyes aren't only adapting to the very bright spot in front and can actually see better to the sides.

All the talk about these fancy systems keeping the bright spot "in your lane" is the complete opposite of what good headlights should do - provide even illumination at a brightness that doesn't blind oncoming drivers. Maybe the focus can be slightly brighter, but there's a reason night driving is more dangerous, and it's not because of the darkness --- it's because of the contrast. During the day, you can see hazards from all around because it's bright and even illumination. At night, all you have is a "tunnel of light", and making that brighter while keeping everything else just as dark isn't going to improve things.
Except that you’re just plain… wrong. Look at the actual beam patterns of modern adaptive lights, and they light the edges better. Old headlamps had to limit their wide-pattern brightness to avoid blinding oncoming traffic. Adaptive ones solve that a different way and thus can have a wider throw.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2022, 06:47:02 pm »
If new prices are high enough, and supplies are low enough, used cars can only go through the roof...
At some point, it becomes cheaper to use Uber...

The "new normal" is heading towards the point where "you'll be happy not owning anything".
Subscription-based business models, which are quickly becoming the norm, are a step towards this already.
Making products too expensive to repair, by design, is also inevitably leading towards the same, whether this is intentional or not.

Anyone here is free to judge whether or not this is desirable.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2022, 07:40:50 pm »
I see this as "just because we can" approach.
99% of the drivers drive on well lighted towns and urban neighborhoods. Even in my country which is the poorest in the Europe all roads are designed to be nice to drive with 30+ years old car.
Where you need to drive your car to see advantages of this level of technology? I understand that is beneficial for lorry drivers in rural Australia, but 2000$ headlamp to take your kid from kinder garden is overkill. I know it LEDs consumes less current and are sold as eco friendly but when I saw pile of headlamps at local junkyard I think they pollute much more than average H4 lamp in lifetime of the car.

I wish I could say that about the roads I drive on, I rely very heavily on my headlights. The stock US-spec headlights on my car were total garbage, dangerously bad. I was fortunate enough to be able to source a pair of European spec H4 headlamps that are drastically better, although still not quite as good as what a lot of modern cars come with.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2022, 08:35:17 pm »
Eric ‘O introduces the modern world of GM LED rear light clusters…… you can replace the reversing lamp…. But anything else…. Fit a comp,etc cluster at over $700 !

https://youtu.be/5T3hQTGxfK0

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Online Gyro

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2022, 08:50:26 pm »
A couple of general comments / random observations from reading back through the thread...

- As with all things, I'm sure the pattern forming LED headlights provide superior illumination and hopefully, reduced glare when new. Gradual clouding of the outer polycarbonate lenses of headlamps seems to be almost inevitable at some point as the car ages, either from Solar UV or from cumulative impact or road grit, probably both. At that point you will end up with extremely bright light sources with diffusers in front of them. No matter how well the beams are controlled, this is bound to greatly increase the dazzle factor for oncoming drivers. Yes, of course this is a factor in halogen lamps too, but the lower brightness and colour temperature probably makes this less objectionable. We may end up with a situation where sealed headlamp systems start failing vehicle inspections much sooner than we are accustomed to.

- Given that the life of halogen bulbs is typically rated in the low hundreds of hours, the suggested LED lifetime figure of 15k hours is very dubious. The number of halogen bulb changes in the lifetime of a typical car can usually be counted on the fingers of one hand. I'm sure that manufacturers will prioritise brightness (and phosphor light output decline) over lifetime, to bring it more in line with the expected life of the rest of the car. Clocking up 15k hours of accumulated driving time, spread over any number of cars, makes it almost inevitable that driver will die the wheel - assuming a very pessimistic 50:50 day:night ratio, that comes to somewhere between 1 and 2 Million miles!

- For those with a sensitivity to the glare of high colour temperature lights, HID or LED, polarized light yellow tinted driving glasses make things a lot less painful. Yes, there must be some minimal light attenuation, but the reduction in dazzle offsets this, it takes the edge off blue tinted oncoming headlights while favouring the colour temperature of your own halogen headlights.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 08:53:47 pm by Gyro »
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2022, 09:01:53 pm »
In the 70's and 80's I drove tens thousands of miles with vehicles fitted with sealed beam units, only ever had one fail and that was when a stone broke the glass. You could also replace a Rolls Royce unit with one that fitted a Mini for a fraction of the price of an original the only difference was there was no RR moulded into the lens. I found that the sealed beam units were more than up to the job when driving on dark twisty country roads even in fog, just did not expect to do eighty miles an hour. 
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2022, 09:06:38 pm »
Gradual clouding of the outer polycarbonate lenses of headlamps seems to be almost inevitable at some point as the car ages

...

We may end up with a situation where sealed headlamp systems start failing vehicle inspections much sooner than we are accustomed to.

It's a good thing they're readily polished then?
 

Offline strawberry

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2022, 09:11:30 pm »
there must be some concept where driver and pedestrian/cyclist must see each other and not only one of them
super bright light is disorienting/blinding in dark night conditions
is removed control of situation in situations where other person is not capable
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2022, 09:20:32 pm »
US collision rate is 1.5 collisions per 1M vehicle miles.  Assuming a well taken care of vehicle can last 200,000 miles,  it is expected to be involved in 0.3 collisions in its life.    If the replacement cost of 2 headlamps is $2000,  the mathematical expectation for the owner of the fancy lights is $600!

Do the same math for every other over-engineered and overpriced part in your car, and you begin to see the outline of a cost explosion...    -  if you are a shareholder, then  8)  ....   if not, then  :(

The biggest problem is the demise of bumpers. Cars used to have sturdy bumpers to absorb minor impacts and protect the expensive painted bodywork, lights and other stuff. Now the entire front and rear end of cars is a sacrificial structure and there is absolutely nothing to protect the expensive bits. What would have been a minor fender bender now results in a total loss. You cannot even buy a simple, rugged maintainable car anymore.
 

Online Gyro

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2022, 09:40:43 pm »
Gradual clouding of the outer polycarbonate lenses of headlamps seems to be almost inevitable at some point as the car ages

...

We may end up with a situation where sealed headlamp systems start failing vehicle inspections much sooner than we are accustomed to.

It's a good thing they're readily polished then?

Yes sure, you can attack them with aftermarket polishing and surface sealing solutions, they'll never be as good as new though. You get crazing and micro cracking in the polycarbonate that you'll never polish out.
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Offline Fraser

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2022, 09:41:23 pm »
I have just seen a suggestion in this thread that yellow driving glasses are good for combating eye fatigue caused by the modern lighting systems. I bought a pair and mentioned them to my optician. He advised that I should not wear yellow tinted glasses at night as the filtering effect means I would not see a pedestrian dressed in blue clothing. I was not aware of this but apparently the wearing of yellow tinted glasses for night driving is a serious no-no. A pity as they did work well against HID headlights.

Fraser
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 09:43:15 pm by Fraser »
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Offline SteveyG

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2022, 11:14:57 pm »
Cooler light, which is better for night driving than the warmer light that a halogen produces. 

Brighter light in the allowed area, with lower glare, improving visibility.   

I think those are both incorrect, certainly the colour temperature is known to be preferential for driving at night if it is warmer. There's many studies on this.

Brighter light in the allowed area is also not necessarily a good thing, the eye cannot quickly shift exposure for dark areas so it's very easy to get dark blindness where the beam cannot effectively/legally cover.

Most cars with LEDs that I've driven are OK, probably no better than a decent HID headlamp setup, but the matrix types are extremely distracting both for the driver and oncoming vehicles.
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2022, 11:45:01 pm »
Gradual clouding of the outer polycarbonate lenses of headlamps seems to be almost inevitable at some point as the car ages

...

We may end up with a situation where sealed headlamp systems start failing vehicle inspections much sooner than we are accustomed to.

It's a good thing they're readily polished then?

Yes sure, you can attack them with aftermarket polishing and surface sealing solutions, they'll never be as good as new though. You get crazing and micro cracking in the polycarbonate that you'll never polish out.

70k miles down the road nothing on the inside or outside of my car is or will ever be good as new - is this a problem? I can't speak for fancy laser headlights, but traditional ones are certainly restorable to be perfectly serviceable.
 

Offline BrokenYugo

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2022, 01:43:34 am »
Gradual clouding of the outer polycarbonate lenses of headlamps seems to be almost inevitable at some point as the car ages

...

We may end up with a situation where sealed headlamp systems start failing vehicle inspections much sooner than we are accustomed to.

It's a good thing they're readily polished then?

Yes sure, you can attack them with aftermarket polishing and surface sealing solutions, they'll never be as good as new though. You get crazing and micro cracking in the polycarbonate that you'll never polish out.

And you have to polish every year or so as the UV keeps attacking the plastic.

I've not tried it, but I've heard scuffing with fine sandpaper and spraying on the best gloss clear coat paint you can get (to add back UV protection) is a fairly permanent fix.

 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2022, 04:35:50 pm »
I saw this youtube video where the headlamps were "polished" by directing heated acetone vapor onto them...   looks good in the video!




« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 04:38:26 pm by SilverSolder »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2022, 06:46:08 pm »
I wonder how many Americans think they’ve been dealing with being blinded by modern headlamps, not realizing they’ve never, ever seen them in use? I ask because it was in the news today that just yesterday, the  NHTSA announced that it will finally allow adaptive headlamps and not just “dumb” high and low beams.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/the-us-will-finally-allow-adaptive-beam-headlights-on-new-cars/


(Note also that the beam patterns in USA up to now contain a deliberate amount of upwards lighting to illuminate road signs. And that many of the headlamps that really dazzle oncoming traffic are illegal aftermarket units. And that the worst dazzling is experienced by sedan drivers, caused by SUVs both oncoming and behind them, due to the height differential.)
 
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Offline emece67

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2022, 09:51:48 pm »
.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 05:13:40 pm by emece67 »
 


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