Author Topic: Insane overengineering of a car headlight  (Read 18022 times)

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Online KE5FX

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2022, 10:11:15 pm »
I wonder how many Americans think they’ve been dealing with being blinded by modern headlamps, not realizing they’ve never, ever seen them in use? I ask because it was in the news today that just yesterday, the  NHTSA announced that it will finally allow adaptive headlamps and not just “dumb” high and low beams.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/the-us-will-finally-allow-adaptive-beam-headlights-on-new-cars/


(Note also that the beam patterns in USA up to now contain a deliberate amount of upwards lighting to illuminate road signs. And that many of the headlamps that really dazzle oncoming traffic are illegal aftermarket units. And that the worst dazzling is experienced by sedan drivers, caused by SUVs both oncoming and behind them, due to the height differential.)

Exactly.  Drivers in the US resort to sketchy aftermarket headlights because our Federal lighting standards are criminally obsolete.  It's good to see that NHTSA is finally starting to address this.

Lots of people claim that headlights were "just fine 30 years ago," but they don't understand that we lose about half our contrast sensitivity as we age.  Headlights that were fine when we were in our twenties were never adequate for drivers in their fifties and beyond.

Collisions with animals are also much more frequent now than they were decades ago, when hunting was more of an everyday activity and predators were not aggressively culled, relocated, or otherwise forced from their habitats.   You need every advantage you can get if you drive in an area with a large deer population.

When buying a car, always get the biggest engine and the best headlights the manufacturer offers.   8)  The rest is optional.
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2022, 10:25:53 pm »
I have to say I don't find the headlights on modern cars to be excessively glarey.  There was a time maybe 5 years ago when modified HID lamps were more common - perhaps due to the relative durth of LED headlamps - and those were pretty bad. You could usually tell they were modified as they were VERY blue.  I notice many fewer vehicles with those systems on the roads now. Perhaps police/MOT testers are more strict or they went out of fashion, who knows.

The worst offenders are taller vehicles, but even then they're usually required to have a headlight adjustment system, and on most cars that's automatic now which keeps light controlled reasonably well.

I wonder if was VW or Tesla that prompted NHTSA to change their stance on adaptive lights - both have included the systems in certain NA models but had it disabled for regulatory reasons, with a software update at the dealer, or over the air, being all that's required to include it. 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 10:27:37 pm by tom66 »
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2022, 10:36:14 pm »
Exactly.  Drivers in the US resort to sketchy aftermarket headlights because our Federal lighting standards are criminally obsolete.  It's good to see that NHTSA is finally starting to address this.

Let us know when they finally stop mandating flat mirrors.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2022, 10:53:42 pm »
I see this as "just because we can" approach.
99% of the drivers drive on well lighted towns and urban neighborhoods. Even in my country which is the poorest in the Europe all roads are designed to be nice to drive with 30+ years old car.
Where you need to drive your car to see advantages of this level of technology? …
Uhhhh… wtf you talking about? In Europe, suburban and rural areas are where people are more likely to own cars. City dwellers mostly rely on public transit.

Have you ever driven in the Swiss countryside? The roads are winding and unlit. And that’s not hours away from cities, but just a few minutes outside.

Around the world we are reducing street lighting because of the negative effects of light pollution. And part of that effort means headlamps must be good.
The headlights on many cars are pathetic afterthoughts. We are in the UK, and have two cars. One car has halogen headlights, and one has fancy beam forming automated, and very bright, LED headlights. I think the car with haogen lights has pretty reasonable lights compared to most cars. However, the difference between driving these cars on roads outside a town is huge. Most major roads in the UK only have lighting around major junctions. We spend a large part of our driving time on roads without lighting. Basic bright LED headlights can be really annoying when a car comes towards you, but the beam forming ones don't shine in other driver's eyes. They very quickly adapt as soon as an oncoming car is detected, or as you approach the tail of cars going the same way as you.

The NCAP people are now including lighting performance in the mix of things needed to get the maximum number of stars. They downgraded a lot of cars for poor headlight performance.
 
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2022, 08:11:19 am »
Reading through the construction and use regulations I am not sure that the LED matrix head lamps are even legal here in the UK as the last paragraph states not more more than two dipped head lights, so unless two of those three clusters are switched of on dipped I cannot see how they comply.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/4/made

PART II
Requirements relating to optional dipped-beam headlamps
1.  In the case of a vehicle with three or more wheels having a maximum speed exceeding 25 mph first used on or after 1st April 1991, two and not more than two may be fitted and the only requirements prescribed by these Regulations in respect of any which are fitted are–

(a)those specified in paragraphs 2(c), 4, 7, 10 and 12(a) of Part I,
(b)that they are designed for a vehicle which is intended to be driven on the right-hand side of the road,
(c)that they form a matched pair, and
(d)that their electrical connections are such that not more than one pair of dipped-beam headlamps is capable of being illuminated at a time.
2.  In the case of any other vehicle, any number may be fitted and the only requirements prescribed by these Regulations in respect of any which are fitted are those specified in paragraphs 2(c), 4, 7 and 12(a) of Part I.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2022, 09:19:09 am »
Since when have dipped-beam lamps been optional?

I am sure that is applicable to *extra lamps* that owners may have fitted to their vehicles as an aftermarket accessory (e.g. offroading vehicles often have these)

Matrix lamps are definitely legal in the UK.   This is because they are legal in the EU and despite Brexit we still remain aligned in many respects.    There is absolutely no chance the big marques would be producing lamps that are knowingly illegal for UK vehicles.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2022, 10:02:18 am »
That's certainly how HIDs were made available on UK cars. The construction & use regs never referred to them, but DVLA could not refuse to register a vehicle that met the applicable EU regulations.

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2022, 02:42:25 pm »
I think the "optional" refers to cars with for headlights and only two may be dipped beam. How long before Mr plod or someone else wakes up that we are out of the EU and the CU regs. are different from the EU ones. Government needs to do something to either bring them in line with EU regs or rule EU one out, as it is its a mess to say the least, with the DVSA registering EU compliant cars but the possibility that the same vehicle could fail the MOT for non compliance with CU regs.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2022, 03:20:30 pm »
US collision rate is 1.5 collisions per 1M vehicle miles.  Assuming a well taken care of vehicle can last 200,000 miles,  it is expected to be involved in 0.3 collisions in its life.    If the replacement cost of 2 headlamps is $2000,  the mathematical expectation for the owner of the fancy lights is $600!

Do the same math for every other over-engineered and overpriced part in your car, and you begin to see the outline of a cost explosion...    -  if you are a shareholder, then  8)  ....   if not, then  :(

The biggest problem is the demise of bumpers. Cars used to have sturdy bumpers to absorb minor impacts and protect the expensive painted bodywork, lights and other stuff. Now the entire front and rear end of cars is a sacrificial structure and there is absolutely nothing to protect the expensive bits. What would have been a minor fender bender now results in a total loss. You cannot even buy a simple, rugged maintainable car anymore.

There's a reason for this.

The cars are sacrificed to save the life and limbs of the drivers and passengers in the cars, which are the real "expensive bits."

Those big steel bumpers we remember on our grandfathers' cars? They transferred the energy of the impact to the driver and passengers. Sure, the paint job was spared, but passengers were injured.

Design changes like this is one reason why deaths per capita have gone down while the number of miles driven every year keeps going up. Drivers surely aren't better drivers.
 
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Offline andy2000

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2022, 03:54:02 pm »
Except that you’re just plain… wrong. Look at the actual beam patterns of modern adaptive lights, and they light the edges better. Old headlamps had to limit their wide-pattern brightness to avoid blinding oncoming traffic. Adaptive ones solve that a different way and thus can have a wider throw.

It's true that well designed modern headlights are better, but there are plenty of poorly designed headlights on the road that are worse than basic halogen lights.  I've read report a few years ago about just how bad some modern headlights were.  Hopefully things have improved since then.

I drove a new Dodge rental car about 5 years ago, and I couldn't believe how bad the headlights were.  They were HID and had a very sharp cutoff.  The problem was the cutoff was too close to the car, and the light directly in front of the car was too bright.  I could see absolutely nothing until it entered the illuminated area, and by then it would have been too late to react.  It felt very unsafe compared to my own car with halogen lights, or other cars I've driven with well designed HID lights.  I ended up swapping for a different car as soon as I could. 
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2022, 06:52:06 pm »
Except that you’re just plain… wrong. Look at the actual beam patterns of modern adaptive lights, and they light the edges better. Old headlamps had to limit their wide-pattern brightness to avoid blinding oncoming traffic. Adaptive ones solve that a different way and thus can have a wider throw.

It's true that well designed modern headlights are better, but there are plenty of poorly designed headlights on the road that are worse than basic halogen lights.  I've read report a few years ago about just how bad some modern headlights were.  Hopefully things have improved since then.

I drove a new Dodge rental car about 5 years ago, and I couldn't believe how bad the headlights were.  They were HID and had a very sharp cutoff.  The problem was the cutoff was too close to the car, and the light directly in front of the car was too bright.  I could see absolutely nothing until it entered the illuminated area, and by then it would have been too late to react.  It felt very unsafe compared to my own car with halogen lights, or other cars I've driven with well designed HID lights.  I ended up swapping for a different car as soon as I could. 
Without a doubt.

With that said, those are at best modern-ish. Remember that modern headlamps were only legalized in USA on Tuesday. Like 3 days ago. So the things this thread is talking about plain and simply do not exist in USA yet.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2022, 05:25:03 am »
Except that you’re just plain… wrong. Look at the actual beam patterns of modern adaptive lights, and they light the edges better. Old headlamps had to limit their wide-pattern brightness to avoid blinding oncoming traffic. Adaptive ones solve that a different way and thus can have a wider throw.

It's true that well designed modern headlights are better, but there are plenty of poorly designed headlights on the road that are worse than basic halogen lights.  I've read report a few years ago about just how bad some modern headlights were.  Hopefully things have improved since then.

I drove a new Dodge rental car about 5 years ago, and I couldn't believe how bad the headlights were.  They were HID and had a very sharp cutoff.  The problem was the cutoff was too close to the car, and the light directly in front of the car was too bright.  I could see absolutely nothing until it entered the illuminated area, and by then it would have been too late to react.  It felt very unsafe compared to my own car with halogen lights, or other cars I've driven with well designed HID lights.  I ended up swapping for a different car as soon as I could.


I'm betting they were not aimed properly. Headlamp aiming is actually fairly critical, especially the ones that have that nice sharp cutoff, the dealer is supposed to set up and aim the lights but I think it's rare that they do.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 05:41:52 am by james_s »
 

Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2022, 11:52:24 am »
Headlight alignment is part of the MOT test in the UK, a legal requirement for cars over 3 years old that is performed every year.  I have had a car fail its MOT for lamp alignment - I had installed the dipped halogen bulbs upside-down which completely changed the beam pattern.  I wondered why I was flashed now and then on the roads!  I blame the criminally stupid Peugeot design but really it was my idiocy as well for not noticing this earlier.

It's perhaps for this reason that it's rarer (though it does happen) to be dazzled in the UK by another driver's headlights.  Is the same true for the US - I know there are some states that don't even have mandatory inspections.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2022, 12:44:27 pm »
All the MOT stations I have been to have always adjusted the head lights if required rather than fail the vehicle they have also replaced bulbs for me as well, these often fail when they bump the vehicle ont the brake testers.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2022, 02:00:01 pm »
All the MOT stations I have been to have always adjusted the head lights if required rather than fail the vehicle they have also replaced bulbs for me as well, these often fail when they bump the vehicle ont the brake testers.

This is actually prohibited under the terms of the MOT - you're not allowed to remove anything once under test. 

However, many garages get away with this by offering a free "pre-MOT inspection" that occurs 5 minutes before the MOT test!

In my case the garage did re-test the vehicle for free after I had fiddled around and refitted the lamps correctly.   It seems Peugeot designed the 206 around the air conditioning compressor and then bolted the rest of the car to it, as changing the left-hand lamp was always a right faff.
 

Offline andy2000

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2022, 03:40:07 pm »

I'm betting they were not aimed properly. Headlamp aiming is actually fairly critical, especially the ones that have that nice sharp cutoff, the dealer is supposed to set up and aim the lights but I think it's rare that they do.

It's certainly possible they weren't aimed properly, or something else was wrong, but it was a nearly new car.  I mentioned it as an example of why some people might have a poor opinion of sharp cutoff HID headlights.  If aiming is that critical, then I'm wiling to bet there are a LOT of these cars on the road with dangerously ineffective lights. 

If the headlights are so bright they need an ultra sharp cutoff to avoid blinding other drivers, then I'd rather have slightly dimmer lights with a wider field of view.  I found that with my eyes adjusted to the extremely bright light immediately in front, it made seeing anything in the shadows even harder. 

For the record, I have driver other cars with HID headlights without issue.  I can see how the lights in this Dodge might have seemed great on a test drive since they were very bright, but in actual traffic they were sorely inadequate.
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2022, 04:20:10 pm »
Already thought before entering "German for sure, Merc or BMW".
Wasn't wrong! :-DD
A friend has a 2006 BMW and even the battery must be coded in the ecu (Well, just a "Reset battery" option, but must be done using a diagnostic cable), the damn thing notices the change in the battery capacity!
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Offline TheWelly888

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2022, 05:00:46 pm »
I hate changing headlight bulbs in the cold dark and wet, fiddling with sharp pieces of stamped steel. My next car will have LED headlights!
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2022, 05:03:04 pm »
All the MOT stations I have been to have always adjusted the head lights if required rather than fail the vehicle they have also replaced bulbs for me as well, these often fail when they bump the vehicle ont the brake testers.

This is actually prohibited under the terms of the MOT - you're not allowed to remove anything once under test.

Indeed, but most will deal with it smoothly - mine polished the headlights on my old car mid-test after failing them, so they could immediately retest. It took 30 seconds or so to get them to a passing standard on a 15 year old car.

Already thought before entering "German for sure, Merc or BMW".
Wasn't wrong! :-DD
A friend has a 2006 BMW and even the battery must be coded in the ecu (Well, just a "Reset battery" option, but must be done using a diagnostic cable), the damn thing notices the change in the battery capacity!

That's because the damn thing doesn't float the battery but charges it only occasionally to save you a dribble of fuel (and get you to replace your battery more regularly.. at one of their dealers, preferably).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 05:26:28 pm by Monkeh »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2022, 06:26:09 pm »
I hate changing headlight bulbs in the cold dark and wet, fiddling with sharp pieces of stamped steel. My next car will have LED headlights!
What makes them real fun to change is when you have a model that requires replacement of the bulbs though the mud encrusted wheel arch.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2022, 07:37:19 pm »
I hate changing headlight bulbs in the cold dark and wet, fiddling with sharp pieces of stamped steel. My next car will have LED headlights!
What makes them real fun to change is when you have a model that requires replacement of the bulbs though the mud encrusted wheel arch.

*cough* Renault Megane ... *cough* ....



Also some models of Renault Clio are a major pain because unless your hands are child-sized, there is literally no way to get at the bulb on the left front side because there is the AC unit in the way. The official procedure is to dismantle the entire front of the car to get at the headlight assembly ...

 
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Online coppice

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2022, 07:51:19 pm »
Also some models of Renault Clio are a major pain because unless your hands are child-sized, there is literally no way to get at the bulb on the left front side because there is the AC unit in the way. The official procedure is to dismantle the entire front of the car to get at the headlight assembly ...
There are many cars where things like an AC or power steering pump were obviously not part of the original plan, and obstruct things badly. There are also quite a few cars where the designers were apparently unaware that many people drive on the other side of the road, and the car would be sold in those markets.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2022, 07:53:04 pm »
Quite a lot of vehicles cannot have their main beams serviced without removing the headlight assembly and/or the bumper and other front structure.. They simply don't care - the lamps are reliable enough that the number of failures they have to deal with at their expense are noise, and they love it when you come pay labour for them to do it for you.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2022, 10:28:43 pm »
Quite a lot of vehicles cannot have their main beams serviced without removing the headlight assembly and/or the bumper and other front structure.. They simply don't care - the lamps are reliable enough that the number of failures they have to deal with at their expense are noise, and they love it when you come pay labour for them to do it for you.

That's maybe true for the modern HID or LED headlights but certainly wasn't the case for the above-mentioned Renaults and isn't the case for many especially small city cars (but not only). Both Clio & Megane used normal halogen bulbs and both were quite well known for blowing them often due to the "classic Renault" (i.e. glitchy and unreliable) electric system. I have owned a Clio and my colleague had a Megane - both great cars. When the electrics worked.

The electric glitches you could get there were absolutely crazy - dashboard and radio that didn't work in the cold until you reset the radio and the computer by pulling a fuse or disconnecting the battery (and you couldn't even turn the car off either until you did so - it just remained on), doors unlocking while moving, doors refusing to unlock, rear hatch unlocking and flying open while I was going 130 on the motorway, the infamous keyless ignition system, many of these cars having shorts in the various wiring harnesses due to water ingress, making them blink like christmas trees whenever the turn indicators were turned on ... Most of this was due to poor quality wiring harnesses and moisture getting where it shouldn't have.

There are many cars where things like an AC or power steering pump were obviously not part of the original plan, and obstruct things badly. There are also quite a few cars where the designers were apparently unaware that many people drive on the other side of the road, and the car would be sold in those markets.

Yes, that was very much the case for at least the Clio - the base model didn't have AC and there was no problem with bulb access. Later models got the AC but the engine compartment under the hood remained more-or-less the same, only the external shape of the body panels has been tweaked between facelifts a little. So between the AC unit and the battery there was no space left for fitting an average sized hand to replace a blown bulb. And given that this was on the left (driver) side, if you blew it while on the road, the car was illegal to drive like that ...

Newer Megane (without the "broken back" rear door) doesn't have this wheel well circus-level bulb access anymore but then has "acquired" this uber-cramped engine compartment in exchange ...
 

Offline Refrigerator

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2022, 09:11:00 pm »
I sometimes find the brightness of the halogens in my old SAAB to be a bit dim.
And feel a bit jealous when i see some newer car with LED's as they light up the road much better.
Had to change the H4's in the headlights and, fortunately, it is super easy in this car.
I just took the dust cap off the housing and the bulb was right there ready to be pulled out.
One big advantage my halogens have over LED's is that they generate enough heat to melt the snow and ice off the headlight during winter   :box:

My biggest problem with newer headlights is the sharp cut-off, because as newer cars go over bumps the beam jumps up and down and as a result can seem like they're flashing their high beams.
And since flashing high beams is a part of the way drivers communicate on the road it can be a distraction.

Halogen headlights tend to be pretty big. The headlights in my SAAB are absolutely huge, yet most of the space inside is taken up by air.
An advantage i see for the LED's is that they can be made to be much more compact.

Newer high-tech headlights (what we locally call "projectors" or "lasers") are often very pricey and a popular item to have stolen, especially if you drive a BMW.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 09:16:34 pm by Refrigerator »
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