Author Topic: Insane overengineering of a car headlight  (Read 18005 times)

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Offline amykTopic starter

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Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« on: February 13, 2022, 04:20:40 am »
Were the designers too bored to keep things simple? :o

 

Offline tooki

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2022, 09:51:04 am »
I will never understand why some people get outraged at new technology that’s more complex than they’re used to. It’s more complex because it does more. It does more because that solves shortcomings in the older, “simple” technology. What’s so hard to comprehend about that?
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2022, 10:03:53 am »
Pretty 'insane', but I've a neighbor with a 2011 Mercedes E Class with the original factory LED headlamps still looking good.

My 2015 Golf also has LED headlamps and they look fantastic,  no signs of wear,   illuminate the road brilliantly whilst not dazzling oncoming drivers.

Some engineers seem to have a clinical condition of ludditus!
 
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Offline ace1903

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2022, 11:30:50 am »
I see this as "just because we can" approach.
99% of the drivers drive on well lighted towns and urban neighborhoods. Even in my country which is the poorest in the Europe all roads are designed to be nice to drive with 30+ years old car.
Where you need to drive your car to see advantages of this level of technology? I understand that is beneficial for lorry drivers in rural Australia, but 2000$ headlamp to take your kid from kinder garden is overkill. I know it LEDs consumes less current and are sold as eco friendly but when I saw pile of headlamps at local junkyard I think they pollute much more than average H4 lamp in lifetime of the car.

I can't see how aluminum can be recycled when this contraption will visit scrapping place? To separate plastic, millions screws is expensive, to (burn) melt aluminum with some plastic is toxic.
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2022, 12:25:08 pm »
I don't know what roads you drive on, but the 60 mph single carriageway roads in the UK are generally unlit, except for the most dangerous junctions.

Imagine trying to negotiate a road like this with crap headlights: 
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.5154043,-4.1153472,3a,81.4y,294.71h,87.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXUBXnLCaNZcsJPdJfbxnYg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

(I was here at night a few months ago, and I felt comfortable enough to maintain a 60 mph pace through most parts in my car.)

The recyclability is definitely a concern, though these LED lamps should last much longer.  It's a problem when the whole car gets recycled, though.

IMO the benefit of LED lamps is not fuel/energy efficiency or lifespan, though those are small factors, but the much higher brightness possible by precision focused optics and the ability to carefully vary the light output to avoid dazzling oncoming traffic.  The LED lamps on my car are a fixed distribution, but they're carefully shaped so the dipped beam stops right at the edge of the oncoming lane, minimising any dazzling effect.  This was one of the benefits of HID lamps, though less so given it is ultimately just a point source.  With full-matrix LED lamps, the ADAS camera can be used to shape the beam perfectly so that your lane is lit up but the oncoming traffic receives no glare.  It's a great achievement and already available on many basic cars.

This is the system fitted to a lot of new cars now:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 12:30:20 pm by tom66 »
 
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Online Fraser

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2022, 01:52:23 pm »
Night driving can be a really miserable experience these days. In the ‘olden days’ you just had to deal with selfish or forgetful drivers who left their high beams switched on as you approached them at close range. These days it is not uncommon to be dazzled by the modern HID projector lamps used for standard (low) beam headlights. I had HID’s in my 2002 Audi TT and got a lot of flashes from other drivers despite their alignment being ‘within factory specification’ and MoT compliant. The real nightmare was amateurs fitting upgraded lighting systems that were not correctly aligned etc. they were in a minority however. It was the general fitting of HID lamps that made night driving unpleasant for me. The light was a blue/white harsh colour temperature that hurts if you get dazzled by it. The driver of the HID equipped vehicle might see benefit from the higher quality light output, but it can make night driving somewhat wearing for other drivers, both oncoming and in front of the projector lights.

Many moons ago my wise father warned me about the use of the powerful additional high beam flood lighting that I attached to my Ford Escort Mk3. Whilst they gave excellent long distance illumination, they tended to create a dark blind spot nearer to the vehicle and when switched off, night vision took time to adjust. I rarely used them in the end. There is such a thing as ‘too bright’ in some driving scenarios. Reflective signs can be an issue as well.

So this thread appears to be discussing new technology that some clever minds have come up with that tries to keep the brighter illumination where it belongs (on the road and edges) and reduce the dazzling effect on oncoming drivers etc. I do not think such a development is without merit and it needs to be considered as the vehicle headlight technology develops and produces a more intense beam of light. The old way was to either use prisms, shaped reflectors or carefully positioned light blocking plates. They all worked to a degree, but are far from perfect. If this new technology is intended to better control the light beams emitted from a vehicle, I am in favour of it as an advancement in illumination technology.

Those old enough may remember the Citroen car that had headlights linked to the steering system that actually steered the whole headlight as the cat travelled around corners. Citroen were well known for innovation and quirky vehicle designs but it has been said that they were “just ahead of their time”. When you consider how many vehicles travel the roads in poor weather or darkness, is it not a good idea to continue development of the lighting systems that enable the driver to safely travel the roads and avoid accidents ? I think it is  :-+

What I do object to is frivolous deployment of ultra bright LED systems that do little to improve safety, and can even degrade safety in some cases. How many on here have been dazzled by modern high intensity red LED rear brake light assemblies when in traffic ? The designers of some vehicles have employed a large number of such high intensity LED’s for ‘visual effect’ (cosmetics) rather than safety. Such bright rear light assemblies can really be a pain to sit behind in traffic.

Now the fun bit…. Cost of replacement ! An LED is a long life device but when mounted in a vehicle, the lighting assembly is exposed to harsh conditions that can lead to lighting assembly failure. In the good old days a filament lamp would fail and could replaced for a £1 to £5, depending upon which lamp it was (simple or complex headlight lamp). Then came the HID headlights and their associated replacement cost….my Audi TT needed Philips HID’s at £125 each and the HID lamps had no guaranteed life span ! They could fail quickly or after several thousands of hours use. The HID driver Ballasts could also fail and they were not cheap to replace.

Now we have entered the era of LED illumination in a big way. High intensity LEDs are common and relatively inexpensive. They have a long service life when treated properly BUT….. place such technology in a harsh environment and there is the potential for failure of the LED, it’s driver or other parts of the lighting assembly through corrosion etc. “So what” some might says and “just replace the failed LED or assembly” ….. well life is not that simple. Generally speaking the high power LED’s are not individually replaceable as the OEM wants the owner to fit a whole new lighting assembly. Fine when such an assembly costs a few Pounds or Dollars, but how do you feel about having to pay $1K when your rear light assembly suffers a failure or >$1K when a headlight assembly fails ! Yep, no kidding. Those are the prices being charged by car manufacturers today. GM being one such company. Such prices could easily write off a vehicle of a certain age that has a shunt and breaks both the headlights plus the usual £2K for a bumper on cars like an Audi. I suspect we will see companies offering lighting assembly repair services once such expensive parts become more widespread.

We are in an age of transition to “electric transport is the way forwards” and can expect much innovation in the coming years. It will be an unstoppable force that the public will either love or hate, depending upon their experiences. I suspect t that more modern technology will bring with it significant costs for the owners who choose to keep their vehicles longer than a few years though. I am driving a 16 year old AUDI A4 1.8T that is immaculate….but it burns fossil fuel (cleanly) so apparently has no future. I doubt many people will be driving 16 year old electric cars in the new future that awaits us. They will be scrapped as uneconomic to repair long before they reach such an age….just like your laptops and phones ;) Progress is good and unstoppable, but it can get expensive !

Fraser
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 02:04:50 pm by Fraser »
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Offline tooki

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2022, 02:29:46 pm »
I see this as "just because we can" approach.
99% of the drivers drive on well lighted towns and urban neighborhoods. Even in my country which is the poorest in the Europe all roads are designed to be nice to drive with 30+ years old car.
Where you need to drive your car to see advantages of this level of technology? …
Uhhhh… wtf you talking about? In Europe, suburban and rural areas are where people are more likely to own cars. City dwellers mostly rely on public transit.

Have you ever driven in the Swiss countryside? The roads are winding and unlit. And that’s not hours away from cities, but just a few minutes outside.

Around the world we are reducing street lighting because of the negative effects of light pollution. And part of that effort means headlamps must be good.
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2022, 02:37:42 pm »
The original and more recent Citroen headlight steering systems. The original DS steering headlights were a very clever concept. They could steer the lighting on hair pin bends ! It was a mechanical system with rods and pivots. Those Citroen engineers knew how to “think outside the box”  :-+

https://citroencarclub.org.uk/directional-headlights/

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-origins/ph-origins-directional-headlights/39160

Fraser
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 03:17:11 pm by Fraser »
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2022, 01:49:40 pm »

[...]  Progress is good and unstoppable, but it can get expensive !

Fraser

I think you put your finger on what annoys many people!  -  Consider the possibility that the cost of almost everything is going up faster than wages? 

Surely it is acceptable have simple (but safe and adequate) headlamps on a basic car?

 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2022, 02:33:00 pm »
The total lumens is mandated by the construction and use regulations here in the UK, so the light output on new cars is much the same as older ones with halogen lamps, the difference seems to be in the colour and source concentration leading to hurting the yes of oncoming drivers. The light needs to be made far more yellow/red not the blue white that the led's emit at present, I find the LED headlamps so harsh that it burns into the retina so that I see blue circles for some seconds after an oncoming car has passed.


High intensity discharge and light emitting diode headlamps are much brighter than halogen ones but have the potential to cause excessive dazzle to oncoming traffic, which is exacerbated if the headlamps are aimed too high or are dirty. Vehicles with headlamps that have light sources emitting more than 2000 lumens are required by type approval regulations to be fitted with a headlamp washing system. In practice this usually means HID headlamps, but lamps using any light source of more than 2000 lumens must have them. Washers may optionally be fitted in other cases.

Where headlamp washers are fitted but are inoperative on vehicles first used after 1 September 2009 this will be recorded as a major defect on the annual roadworthiness test if the vehicle has HID or LED headlamps; in other cases it will be a minor defect.

A levelling device is also required for HID and LED headlamps, either automatic or manual (operable from the driver’s seat if manual) and this is also included in the test. Again, a major defect will be recorded if it does not work.

Existing headlamps on vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986 must not be converted to be used with HID or LED light sources. The complete unit may be replaced but the vehicle must then comply with the requirements for headlamp washers and levelling devices.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2022, 03:13:46 pm »
I think you put your finger on what annoys many people!  -  Consider the possibility that the cost of almost everything is going up faster than wages? 

Surely it is acceptable have simple (but safe and adequate) headlamps on a basic car?

Basic cars still have halogen lamps but LED lamps are falling in cost, making them more common place.

For instance you get LED headlamps on a VW Golf now in the basic or second-up-from-basic trim, it's not much extra than a halogen system and has significant advantages.
 

Offline ace1903

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2022, 03:33:49 pm »
Quote
I think you put your finger on what annoys many people!  -  Consider the possibility that the cost of almost everything is going up faster than wages?
Nailed it. I would say that investment in new car is artificially inflated.
I am not against progress and benefits of the LED technology. But here I see put intention to put everything together all PCBs, plastic, heatsinks LEDs laser in one hermetic housing.
Marketing says only benefits but no one talks that after 5-10 years if you decide to sell the car it will be worthless just because some led died.

If spark plug is worn or broken you replace only 4 spark plugs not the entire engine. I believe that technology if it is so advanced to include LASERs, it can be also advanced to make the headlamps   
modular and to be possible to replace only LEDs or PCB  or fan inside the housing.

If the compromise is to drive 50mph instead of 60mph at night because my car is without this blessing technology I would gladly accept it.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2022, 04:11:37 pm »
Quote
I think you put your finger on what annoys many people!  -  Consider the possibility that the cost of almost everything is going up faster than wages?
Nailed it. I would say that investment in new car is artificially inflated.
I am not against progress and benefits of the LED technology. But here I see put intention to put everything together all PCBs, plastic, heatsinks LEDs laser in one hermetic housing.
Marketing says only benefits but no one talks that after 5-10 years if you decide to sell the car it will be worthless just because some led died.

If spark plug is worn or broken you replace only 4 spark plugs not the entire engine. I believe that technology if it is so advanced to include LASERs, it can be also advanced to make the headlamps   
modular and to be possible to replace only LEDs or PCB  or fan inside the housing.

If the compromise is to drive 50mph instead of 60mph at night because my car is without this blessing technology I would gladly accept it.

The average price that people pay for a car/light truck in the USA is now $40,472 as of late 2021.

I guess they have to include some advanced features to try to justify this price level!   -  even though the real world benefits are sometimes questionable.

Cars are getting more difficult to repair for the same reasons that phones are sealed so you cannot (easily) replace the battery, or expand the memory, or use wired headphones....   basically, you are expected to keep paying a monthly fee and keep replacing them.

They don't want people using older products and getting away without paying the steadily increasing prices, which they seem to consider to be their birthright to collect every month!

 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2022, 04:44:56 pm »
There is a follow up on the laser diode power.
 
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Online AndyC_772

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2022, 05:01:43 pm »
"Insane overengineering"...?

Amateurs.


 
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Offline Tangent_Tracker

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2022, 05:19:52 pm »
It's called progress, and I love it. The jury is still out as to whether laser headlights give much improvement over LED atm though....
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2022, 05:31:44 pm »
You call it progress until you receive a repair bill. Then you call it overengineering.
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Offline BrokenYugo

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2022, 05:39:53 pm »
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one in the world who is perfectly happy with (properly functioning and aimed) halogen headlights. I also, surrounded by people with illegal and/or severely misaimed lights on their personality replacement trucks, often wonder if I'm in some elite group that holds the secret knowledge of what a low beam is for.

The low beam is not for seeing 600 yards ahead, any animals hiding in the tree canopy, and oncoming drivers making rude gestures at your light vomiting vehicle, it's for lighting the road ahead (and signs on the side) far enough you'll have time to stop or evade if something pops into that light, nothing more.

Then there are the dead stock LED/HID/Laser cars that blind me every time they hit a bump, which I assume is just a nasty case of the tech getting too far ahead of the regs. They need to be aimed farther down to account for the razor sharp cutoff, but that probably doesn't sell, because people don't know what headlights are for.

 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2022, 05:51:07 pm »
it's not much extra than a halogen system and has significant advantages.

Like what?
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2022, 06:42:08 pm »
it's not much extra than a halogen system and has significant advantages.

Like what?

When you have a fender bender you now have to pay $2k per side, and also dealer part only, as opposed to the aftermarket halogen being $20, and not needing to be coded to the vehicle to operate. So your insurance premium goes up as well.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2022, 07:04:06 pm »
Realistically, LED headlamps are going to do min. 15,000 hours before replacement is needed, and probably 30,000 hours is achievable. 

My car while driving has averaged about 30 mph, so that would be over 450,000 miles for this car, assuming the lamps are on all the time, which itself is unlikely.  I have seen almost no cars on the road with failed LED headlamps, although one or two with failed DRL lights (usually one or two LEDs in the whole assembly, so more of a cosmetic issue.)

I guess the problem is when the cost of repair is large, but the chance of failure is low, the average person might see no change in the cost of running a car, but there is a risk of being stung with say a $1,000 bill.

It's a bit like how a car can run perfectly fine for 5 years and then suffer a catastrophic engine failure e.g. snapped timing belt.  The chance is very low, but the consequence is very high.

For those unable to budget for these types of events, I suppose that's what a warranty is for.  Personally I prefer to save my money and just budget for an event like this.  So far, even though I own a German car, this has worked out cheaper than buying the warranty.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 07:08:44 pm by tom66 »
 

Online tom66

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2022, 07:07:18 pm »
it's not much extra than a halogen system and has significant advantages.

Like what?

Better beam distribution.

Cooler light, which is better for night driving than the warmer light that a halogen produces. 

Brighter light in the allowed area, with lower glare, improving visibility.    For vehicles with dynamic/matrix LED, this is even more pronounced.   On my car with conventional LED headlamps, the beam is tightly distributed within its lane, with minimal spillover into adjacent lanes.   On high-beam, the visibility is absolutely superb.   The effect is visibility is considerably better than a car with halogen lamps, which benefits safety and reduces driver stress and fatigue.

If you have not driven a car with LED lamps then perhaps you would not know - but I never want to go back. So much so I won't consider another car unless it has at least equivalent non-matrix LED lamps to my Golf.
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2022, 07:16:43 pm »
Reading this thread brought to mind an article I read the other day on Tesla. They have (apparently) engineered a LED matrix headlight that they will fit to all cars. The matrix will then configure itself to display the leagle light pattern in the country you are driving in. I assume they have done the costings and have worked out that this is cheaper than building and stocking unique headlights for each area
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Offline trevers

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2022, 07:40:08 pm »
Bah! We don't need all of these things... The old way was cheaper and simpler.

Safety Glass - Non laminated was cheaper
Fuel injection - Carbs were great just a simple mechanical device, none of these new fangled computers telling MY engine how to run!
Seat belts - Just adds cost and besides isn't it safer for the passengers to be thrown clear of the wreck?
Airbags - It's a plot to sell more airbags after a crash by the automotive cabal!
Crumple Zones - Who needs all of that complicated engineering and fancy materials. I want my engine to pushed into the passenger compartment after the crash, it's faster to check for damage that way.
Radial Tires - Man give me back my bias-ply retreads, another conspiracy!
Anti-lock brakes - Again with the computers? My old non-power assisted drums worked fine.
Power steering - Just more over-engineered extras I get a free workout when parking!
etc. etc. etc...

Seriously the only person who would complain about modern headlights is someone who has never driven a car with them.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 07:53:26 pm by trevers »
 
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Offline emece67

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Re: Insane overengineering of a car headlight
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2022, 07:49:56 pm »
.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 05:13:24 pm by emece67 »
 


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