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General => General Chat => Topic started by: XOIIO on May 14, 2014, 06:06:14 am

Title: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: XOIIO on May 14, 2014, 06:06:14 am
So, I found a 9v battery, unsure of how old it is, it's a Panasonic one, still putting out 9 volts, but it could only put out 50ma, instead of the usual ~500ma, so I opened it up...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/25jz6o9.jpg)

All I can say is... eww, definitely does not look good lol.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: Psi on May 14, 2014, 06:07:57 am
It's normal for some 9volts to be potted like that.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: XOIIO on May 14, 2014, 06:18:59 am
It's normal for some 9volts to be potted like that.

It's not potted, that's just the standard pile construction, but the brown stuff is supposed to be more of a white color.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: Richard Crowley on May 14, 2014, 06:35:52 am
Nothing about the symptoms or the appearance that suggest it is anything but used up.
If you don't know what a "good" battery looks like inside, how can you say "it doesn't look good"?

That particular example appears to be made from six recctangular 1.5V cells stacked up.
Other 9V batteries are made up of six "AAA" batteries bundled together.

(http://makezineblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/battery.jpg?w=500)
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: XOIIO on May 14, 2014, 06:54:24 am
Nothing about the symptoms or the appearance that suggest it is anything but used up.
If you don't know what a "good" battery looks like inside, how can you say "it doesn't look good"?

That particular example appears to be made from six recctangular 1.5V cells stacked up.
Other 9V batteries are made up of six "AAA" batteries bundled together.

(http://makezineblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/battery.jpg?w=500)

I have taken apart plenty of 9 volt batteries, and I have never seen one with the pile construction that looks like this, even when they are used up with barely any voltage.

Also considering that it is outputting 9v but a 10th of it's normal current I would definitely say it has gone bad.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: G7PSK on May 14, 2014, 07:52:04 am
That is the old pile construction, been around since the late 1930's. The outer of each cell or pile is brown paper with a waxy substance over it, if you pull a new one apart it looks the same.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: vk6zgo on May 14, 2014, 08:18:21 am
I remember,as a kid,that Eveready in Australia made a huge fuss about going over to the "pile" construction,bragging that it increased energy storage by a substantial amount compared to stacked cylindrical cells.

Previous to that time,all the locally made "A" & "B" batteries for valve radios used cylindrical cells.
Eveready got a bit of a jump on their competitor,Diamond,who took a while to change their factory procedures over.

I always assumed from then that dry cell batteries were all of the slab tyoe,but recently,I've come across quite a few of the stacked cylinder type.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: electr_peter on May 14, 2014, 08:48:36 am
[...]
That particular example appears to be made from six recctangular 1.5V cells stacked up.
Other 9V batteries are made up of six "AAA" batteries bundled together.
Slight correction - 9V batteries can be made from six AAAA (4 A's), not from six AAA (thee A's). AAAA size is smaller than AAA.

I have seen at least 2-3 different construction methods for 9V batteries. Stacked construction (as in forst post), six AAAA's. I think there may few other methods of stacking.
Nothing unusual here.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: mariush on May 14, 2014, 08:54:32 am
So, I found a 9v battery, unsure of how old it is, it's a Panasonic one, still putting out 9 volts, but it could only put out 50ma, instead of the usual ~500ma, so I opened it up...


I don't know what makes you think a 9v battery is supposed to give you 500mA ... have a look at some datasheets and some discharge graphs:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/EN22.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/EN22.pdf)
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/9V_Ind_Alka_Bat_Data_Sheet.pdf (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/9V_Ind_Alka_Bat_Data_Sheet.pdf)
http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1604_6LF22_US_CT.pdf (http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1604_6LF22_US_CT.pdf)
http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1604_6LR61_US_CT.pdf (http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1604_6LR61_US_CT.pdf)

Even at 100mA, you'll only going to get about 3-4 hours of life out of the battery at that load.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: saturation on May 14, 2014, 02:53:32 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-volt_battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-volt_battery)

details and photos for old style pile construction and multiple cells.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: Legit-Design on May 14, 2014, 03:46:45 pm
Dave already did a video about these:

EEVblog #518 - 9V Alkaline Battery Construction (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JGfoLxVCo#ws)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JGfoLxVCo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JGfoLxVCo)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-518-9v-alkaline-battery-construction/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-518-9v-alkaline-battery-construction/)
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: XOIIO on May 14, 2014, 03:48:43 pm
Dave already did a video about these:

EEVblog #518 - 9V Alkaline Battery Construction (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JGfoLxVCo#ws)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JGfoLxVCo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JGfoLxVCo)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-518-9v-alkaline-battery-construction/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-518-9v-alkaline-battery-construction/)

Yeah, see that's how these ones usually look too, I've never seen one with paper underneath the plastic, and digging into it I'm pretty sure it is not paper.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: Richard Crowley on May 14, 2014, 06:01:54 pm
I have taken apart plenty of 9 volt batteries, and I have never seen one with the pile construction that looks like this,
Then you haven't taken apart enough 9V batteries to be aware of the wide variety of constructions.

Quote
even when they are used up with barely any voltage.
You aren't actually proposing that the internal appearance of the battery can be used as any reliable indication of good/flat/bad?
It has never been my experience that you could diagnose ANYTHING from the internal appearance.
(Of course physical trauma, crushing, puncturing, etc. and thermal meltdown are obvious upon inspection.)

Quote
Also considering that it is outputting 9v but a 10th of it's normal current I would definitely say it has gone bad.
Some battery chemistries will still show the rated voltage OPEN CIRCUIT (i.e. with no load, as when using a high-impedance DMM) even when "depleted".
Assuming that the battery is "bad" just because the open-circuit voltage is 9V is rather short-sighted, IME.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: SeanB on May 14, 2014, 06:40:01 pm
Normally with the pile contruction you have the outer plastic shrink, and inside that a wax dip over the cells. Then you have the cells, made from a paper outer wrap covering an inside mix. Top of the cell is a zinc sheet with a carbon coat on the one side, then a layer of manganese dioxide mixed with ammonium chloride to make a nearly dry paste, and topped with a graphite powder block. they are layered then pressed into a block in a die to get the cells to ontact, then wax dipped for protection from drying out, then sealed with a plastic shrink and then placed into a case. The contacts on one side are just a set of teeth onto the zinc plate and the other side a steel strip with teeth onto a zinc plate with the carbon contacting the carbon anode of the bottom cell. Simple to make, and as it is mostly dry you have little issue with it leaking.

the cylindrical AAAA cells have 2 methods I have seen, either a set of tabs welded to top and bottom of each cell to interconnect, or more commonly these days a simple pressure connection with a silicone pressure plate and a plastic sheet with contact strips on it to join the cells.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: scientist on May 14, 2014, 07:58:23 pm
Nothing about the symptoms or the appearance that suggest it is anything but used up.
If you don't know what a "good" battery looks like inside, how can you say "it doesn't look good"?

That particular example appears to be made from six recctangular 1.5V cells stacked up.
Other 9V batteries are made up of six "AAA" batteries bundled together.

(http://makezineblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/battery.jpg?w=500)

*AAAA (http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_nomenclature)
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: XOIIO on May 14, 2014, 07:59:56 pm
Another battery related question, what is the largest cr type battery? I found a cr 3032 for the clock in an old MacBook, do they get any bigger?
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: scientist on May 14, 2014, 08:02:31 pm
Another battery related question, what is the largest cr type battery? I found a cr 3032 for the clock in an old MacBook, do they get any bigger?
That's what she said.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cr+battery+size+chart (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cr+battery+size+chart)
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: XOIIO on May 14, 2014, 08:56:26 pm
Guess the only larger one is CR11108

(http://www.chip1stop.com/img/product/ENGY/ELF001_971593fL.jpg)
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: electrolux on May 15, 2014, 12:02:43 pm
That seems pretty standard to me :-//
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: electrolux on May 15, 2014, 12:06:47 pm
Guess the only larger one is CR11108

(http://www.chip1stop.com/img/product/ENGY/ELF001_971593fL.jpg)
Very odd I dint know they existed but there you go Learn something ne w from the EEVblog every time!
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: electrolux on May 15, 2014, 12:09:03 pm
There is a list of battery sizes On Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes.)
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: miguelvp on May 16, 2014, 06:27:07 am
If it bounces is dead, if it sounds like "thunk" and doesn't bounce then it's good.
Other than that, yeah, they are made both ways, although in the US I've never seen the non AAAA ones.

Btw, 9v are batteries the rest are piles. Although I remember seen some 12V bateries with piles inside too. But it's late so I'm not looking it up :)
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: vk6zgo on May 16, 2014, 06:37:20 am
If it bounces is dead, if it sounds like "thunk" and doesn't bounce then it's good.
Other than that, yeah, they are made both ways, although in the US I've never seen the non AAAA ones.

Btw, 9v are batteries the rest are piles. Although I remember seen some 12V bateries with piles inside too. But it's late so I'm not looking it up :)

"Battery" just means a group of Cells connected together to obtain a higher voltage or current capacity.
The construction of the Cells is immaterial.
Title: Re: Inside a bad 9v battery.
Post by: miguelvp on May 16, 2014, 06:38:53 am
If it bounces is dead, if it sounds like "thunk" and doesn't bounce then it's good.
Other than that, yeah, they are made both ways, although in the US I've never seen the non AAAA ones.

Btw, 9v are batteries the rest are piles. Although I remember seen some 12V bateries with piles inside too. But it's late so I'm not looking it up :)

"Battery" just means a group of Cells connected together to obtain a higher voltage or current capacity.
The construction of the Cells is immaterial.

Therefore a 9v is a battery a 1.5V is a pile (or cell  :-//)