instantaneous death by (exploding) electronic cigarette

[Kjelt]

I knew that smoking was bad for your health, that is why I don't do it, but I wonder what effects this sort of incident would have with other battery operated devices

An exploding electronic cigarette caused the death of a Florida man earlier this month, an autopsy determined.
.............
died on May 5 from parts of an electronic cigarette that penetrated his head, according to the autopsy report.
.............
thermal injuries to about 80 percent of his body, including his chest, shoulder, abdomen, back, arm and hand, according to the autopsy report.
..............
the shape and construction of e-cigarettes can make them act like "flaming rockets" when the battery dies. 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-man-dies-exploding-electronic-cigarette-autopsy/story?id=55181750

[Marco]

It's happened with phones.

[Brumby]

But you don't stick phones in your mouth.

.... or is that something that you do?

[Kjelt]

It's happened with phones.

Death? I heard legs burned so that is 10-15% but 80% of the body and instantaneous death ? Not read that.

thermal injuries to about 80 percent of his body, including his chest, shoulder, abdomen, back, arm and hand, according to the autopsy report.

[Kjelt]

But you don't stick phones in your mouth.

Very close to your mouth and head if you are talking to somebody, that is what makes this so scary.

[Gyro]

Also referenced in: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/my-e-cig-died/msg1544510/?topicseen#msg1544510

[RoGeorge]

But you don't stick phones in your mouth.

.... or is that something that you do?

Well not me, but some do:


 

Later edit:
Oh, wait, Google found an even better example: an exploding phone kept in mouth as a flashlight, to free the hands while searching for a sugar pack (the video does not show the explosion).



Later later edit:
Oh, wait, this one is with an explosion video caught on the surveillance cameras: a dude bite an iPhone battery in the shop, to check if it's real
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/iphone-battery-explodes-mans-mouth-11898158

And with that, for the next 6 month or so, Google will probably return me only stupid videos... I forgot that I was logged into Youtube while googling "phone mouth explode".

[apis]

If I understood it correctly what killed him was part of the ecig ending up in his brain. I suppose some are shaped a bit like a gun/cannon and if the battery suddenly explodes inside a metal pipe, the mouthpiece area might shoot out like a bullet?

It then caused a fire, but I suppose he was dead by then and the reason for the severe burn was that he was already dead and couldn't put out the fire. This got to be really rare though, but they should have this in mind when designing the units I suppose. Phones should really be less dangerous (assuming you keep it out of your mouth) but perhaps they too should be careful not to confine the battery to much.

[Seph.b]

One of the reasons I only buy Samsung high current 18650s for mine.

The last mod I bought came with a free battery. The battery had no part number on it and the only thing printed on it was Danger: Do Not Use With E-Cigs, or some such.

I just changed the (Samsung) battery the other day because it was hardly holding any charge anymore. It had swollen enough to require pliers to remove it. That was a bit scary, not visually noticeable but enough to worry me. I use to do 100% to 20% charging, I am trying to keep in the 80% to 40% range now to baby the battery a little more.

I am genuinely surprised there are not more battery accidents with how dangerous lithium battery chemistry is.

[Gregg]

He chose poorly

[Monkeh]

One of the reasons I only buy Samsung high current 18650s for mine.

The last mod I bought came with a free battery. The battery had no part number on it and the only thing printed on it was Danger: Do Not Use With E-Cigs, or some such.

I just changed the (Samsung) battery the other day because it was hardly holding any charge anymore. It had swollen enough to require pliers to remove it. That was a bit scary, not visually noticeable but enough to worry me. I use to do 100% to 20% charging, I am trying to keep in the 80% to 40% range now to baby the battery a little more.

I am genuinely surprised there are not more battery accidents with how dangerous lithium battery chemistry is.

Lithium chemistry isn't dangerous.

Drawing ridiculously high currents for long durations and then rapid charging them so you can get your next nicotine fix on the other hand..

[amyk]

If I understood it correctly what killed him was part of the ecig ending up in his brain. I suppose some are shaped a bit like a gun/cannon and if the battery suddenly explodes inside a metal pipe, the mouthpiece area might shoot out like a bullet?

In other words, the top was too weak to contain the pressure and let go first. Definitely like a gun...

[krish2487]

Real men smoke actual cigarettes and get killed by cancer!!


None of these e-cigarettes rubbish!!! 

[Kjelt]

Real men smoke actual cigarettes and get killed by cancer!!
None of these e-cigarettes rubbish!!! 

Nothing to laugh about if you ever knew someone that died with that disease.

[BravoV]

Die with style ... at least here, as I've seen locally here most this suckers used these "suck bomb" just to gain street cred. 

[Marco]

It had swollen enough to require pliers to remove it.

Maybe this was what happened, the mod vents on the bottom while the battery if installed in the proscribed manner vents on top. So if the battery swells and closes the gas path to the bottom it can build enough pressure to blow through the insulator on top, through the atomizer and launch the mouthpiece, which isn't threaded on.

[krish2487]

@kjelt
I apologise if I came across as a prick. It wasn't my intention.
I should have been more sensitive to the issue.

[Kjelt]

That's ok maybe I am too sensitive about it, it was just the icon at the end that ticked me off 

[Red Squirrel]

I heard of people doing mods where they put a coil that's like 0.8 ohm.  That's practically dead shorting the cell.    Wonder if stock ecigs are much safer and if it's always modded ones that have issues.

As for phones I think part of the issue is the obsession with making them so thin. Trying to pack that much power into a thin battery is asking for issues imo.  It's probably frustrating being an engineer and constantly being pushed to make these things thinner and thinner beyond what is practical.

[doobedoobedo]

I heard of people doing mods where they put a coil that's like 0.8 ohm.  That's practically dead shorting the cell.    Wonder if stock ecigs are much safer and if it's always modded ones that have issues.

0.8 ohm isn't particularly low in the scheme of things, you need heat to turn a liquid into a vapour. On a single fully charged 18650 it will draw about 5A. If you're using a high power cell capable of giving 20-30A then it's well within spec of the cell. I suspect this guy was using a much lower resistance coil. As was mentioned before the problem is that the cells vent at the top and mech mods usually vent at the bottom. In this case a fatal design flaw.

There's really no sound reason to use a mech mod any more. Regulated mods just get better and can supply as much power as any sane person would want. If you want ridiculous amounts of power then rolling your own regulator really isn't too hard. I've designed and built a couple, using one right now controlled by an Atmel 328p I made a couple of years ago powered by a LiPo designed for RC.

[apis]

If it is completely sealed then pressure wouldn't have to build up particularly fast even. Iirc there is only soft tissue between the mouth cavity and the brain so it probably doesn't take a lot of energy for a projectile to be lethal either.

Just adding a vent hole at the top of the battery compartment as well as the bottom might do the trick though?

[Seph.b]

If it is completely sealed then pressure wouldn't have to build up particularly fast even. Iirc there is only soft tissue between the mouth cavity and the brain so it probably doesn't take a lot of energy for a projectile to be lethal either.

Just adding a vent hole at the top of the battery compartment as well as the bottom might do the trick though?

This thread has been making me think about doing just that. Mine has the battery compartment parallel to the mouth piece instead of under it, so it would be a simple mod. My worry then would be liquid getting in the hole and shorting out the battery. So I still have to think about it.

[CopperCone]

makes me wonder if my big 8000 lumen flashlight by Fenix can kill me like a pipe bomb with its red bull can sized battery and probobly shitty electronics 

[glarsson]

makes me wonder if my big 8000 lumen flashlight by Fenix can kill me like a pipe bomb with its red bull can sized battery and probobly shitty electronics 

Any time you have lots of energy in a container you either have a gun or a bomb. The only question is how easy it is to release the energy in a short amount of time.

[Zero999]

makes me wonder if my big 8000 lumen flashlight by Fenix can kill me like a pipe bomb with its red bull can sized battery and probobly shitty electronics 

Any time you have lots of energy in a container you either have a gun or a bomb. The only question is how easy it is to release the energy in a short amount of time.

The last statement about how quickly the energy can be released is the most important factor. A 100g wax candle contains about 4.2MJ of energy, much more than any battery of a similar size, yet it isn't explosive, under standard conditions, because the energy can't be released very quikcly.

[Rerouter]

My worry then would be liquid getting in the hole and shorting out the battery. So I still have to think about it.

Use an adhesive sticker as a burst plate, one of the waxy circle ones sold at office works. It will keep the water out. And should come off when you blow hard through the hole, giving the pressure somewhere to go rather than the alternative.

[CopperCone]

I know the battery has alot of energy but I am specificially inquiring about the failure mode. I wonder if I should weaken it with a hacksaw or something. Like cut most of the back out so it opens like a soda tab (just use a bead of water proof glue around the cut) but this all depends on the velocity of delagration that occurs in the battery if its high enough then it wont really matter too much as peak pressure will be reached before the shock front reaches the deformation but I don't think this is the case for lithium?

[amyk]

makes me wonder if my big 8000 lumen flashlight by Fenix can kill me like a pipe bomb with its red bull can sized battery and probobly shitty electronics 

Any time you have lots of energy in a container you either have a gun or a bomb. The only question is how easy it is to release the energy in a short amount of time.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?262234-TK-Monster-Explosion

[glarsson]

makes me wonder if my big 8000 lumen flashlight by Fenix can kill me like a pipe bomb with its red bull can sized battery and probobly shitty electronics 

Any time you have lots of energy in a container you either have a gun or a bomb. The only question is how easy it is to release the energy in a short amount of time.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?262234-TK-Monster-Explosion

This time it was easy. Just push a button a couple of times.

[raptor1956]

Back in 2014 I went to the Indy 500 along with other family.  We had an RV parked in the American Legion RV park right across from the track and our spot was right by the road.  All along the road were vendors selling food and other things and the vendor closest to us was selling e-cigarettes and the stuff that goes with it.  I found it interesting that during there break the clerks for the e-cigarette booth would go behind the booth and ... smoke cigarettes.


E-cigarettes were a genius stroke from the major cigarette makers as a way to get new (young) addicts -- and its working.

One of the major draws for e-cigarettes is the huge cloud of smoke/steam they can generate and it plays off some of the same thing as cigars -- to proclaim to all around that you are not concerned in the least about your impact on others.  Back when smoking cigarettes was legal in restaurants etc it was not uncommon for a smoker to not care if there smoke disturbed others -- hey its my right so get used to it. 


Brian

[Rick Law]

It had swollen enough to require pliers to remove it.

Maybe this was what happened, the mod vents on the bottom while the battery if installed in the proscribed manner vents on top. So if the battery swells and closes the gas path to the bottom it can build enough pressure to blow through the insulator on top, through the atomizer and launch the mouthpiece, which isn't threaded on.

From the e-cig devices I've seen (not too many), it is the format of the device that is deadly.

The size of a cigarette pack, with one, two, or three 18650's in it and a right angle tube a cm (each side of the right angle) or so long for sucking the vapor.  So, one has to get the batteries as close to the face as a cell phone to take a puff.

There are many ways to ensure batteries doesn't blow towards the smoker who is merely cm's away from the cells.  For example, separate compartment for the 18650 cells connected via a few tens of cm's of 10 or 12 gauge wire to the vaporizing compartment.  Another way would be to enclose the device 5 sides leaving the side facing away as vent.  Ways to make it safer is endless - just no one has done it.

[doobedoobedo]

Back in 2014 I went to the Indy 500 along with other family.  We had an RV parked in the American Legion RV park right across from the track and our spot was right by the road.  All along the road were vendors selling food and other things and the vendor closest to us was selling e-cigarettes and the stuff that goes with it.  I found it interesting that during there break the clerks for the e-cigarette booth would go behind the booth and ... smoke cigarettes.

There's a vape shop I walk past where the owner is always out side the front door smoking. A clear signal that he's only in it for profit.

E-cigarettes were a genius stroke from the major cigarette makers as a way to get new (young) addicts -- and its working.

I'm afraid this is all BS. The major cigarette companies are the smallest part of the market, they have been buying market share though.

Depends on your viewpoint. In England the smoking rate was fairly flat at 20% for years until 2011 when electronic devices started to take off and had dropped to 15% by 2016 as this graph from Public Health England (based on data from the Office of National Statistics) shows.

One of the major draws for e-cigarettes is the huge cloud of smoke/steam they can generate and it plays off some of the same thing as cigars -- to proclaim to all around that you are not concerned in the least about your impact on others.  Back when smoking cigarettes was legal in restaurants etc it was not uncommon for a smoker to not care if there smoke disturbed others -- hey its my right so get used to it. 

Brian

What impact does it have on you, especially if it's outside?

It had swollen enough to require pliers to remove it.

Maybe this was what happened, the mod vents on the bottom while the battery if installed in the proscribed manner vents on top. So if the battery swells and closes the gas path to the bottom it can build enough pressure to blow through the insulator on top, through the atomizer and launch the mouthpiece, which isn't threaded on.

From the e-cig devices I've seen (not too many), it is the format of the device that is deadly.

The size of a cigarette pack, with one, two, or three 18650's in it and a right angle tube a cm (each side of the right angle) or so long for sucking the vapor.  So, one has to get the batteries as close to the face as a cell phone to take a puff.

There are many ways to ensure batteries doesn't blow towards the smoker who is merely cm's away from the cells.  For example, separate compartment for the 18650 cells connected via a few tens of cm's of 10 or 12 gauge wire to the vaporizing compartment.  Another way would be to enclose the device 5 sides leaving the side facing away as vent.  Ways to make it safer is endless - just no one has done it.

The ones that are rectangular won't explode like this, the batteries are loaded from the side and they are not completely sealed, the door for the battery compartment is usually held in place by small magnets. They are also usually regulated so the voltage drop from using unsuitable cells will cause them to shut off the power before anything goes horribly wrong. The problem is the tubes that take a single cell with a button at the bottom which acts as a switch.  Any venting is usually done through the switch and there is no protection at all.

[Zero999]

I don't understand the anti-ecig movement. I think it's mostly down to propaganda pushed by the tobacco companies.

Fair enough, ecig vapour might be annoying to some, perhaps even more so than cigarette smoke for the tiny minority, but the reality is, it's much less harmful than the tar filled, carcinogenic muck pumped out by real cigarettes. Nicotine itself, in the dosage delivered by a typical cigarette, whether real or electronic, is no more harmful than coffee. It's the other shit produced when organic matter burns which causes the damage. One could roll up dried salad leaves, burn them and still receive a similar dosage of carcinogens as they would in cigarette smoke. Now it's true that the aerosol produced by ecigs isn't completely harmless: it does cause some respiratory irritation, but it's several orders of magnitude less harmful than smoke.

By the way, there's also some evidence to support that ecigs are less addictive, than real cigarettes but it's not know whether it's because the nicotine isn't with the other toxic chemicals found in cigarette smoke or something else.
http://news.psu.edu/story/471014/2017/06/12/research/e-cigarettes-less-addictive-cigarettes-path-study-shows

I can see the need for regulations for ecigs but no more than those governing food and battery operated devices.

[doobedoobedo]

The anti-ecig movement surprisingly isn't tobacco companies. It's those with an even more vested interest - Anti-tobacco campaigners plus NRT suppliers. The WHO is also massively anti-ecig.

Dick Puddlecote https://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.co.uk/ is always in interesting read.

[apis]

My worry then would be liquid getting in the hole and shorting out the battery. So I still have to think about it.

Use an adhesive sticker as a burst plate, one of the waxy circle ones sold at office works. It will keep the water out. And should come off when you blow hard through the hole, giving the pressure somewhere to go rather than the alternative.

Do test by blowing as suggested though. You might need a surprising amount of pressure to blow out a plug if the hole is too small (since the force on the plug is proportional to the surface area (grows with r²), whereas the friction forces that holds it in place is proportional to the circumference (grows with r), i.e.: you might need significantly more pressure to blow out a small plug than a big). But intuitively a small sticker sounds like it would be perfect in this case.

Fair enough, ecig vapour might be annoying to some, perhaps even more so than cigarette smoke for the tiny minority, but the reality is, it's much less harmful than the tar filled, carcinogenic muck pumped out by real cigarettes.

It is pretty annoying to have e-smoke blown in your face as well, especially when flavoured with some horrible synthetic fruit flavour.

But yeah, haven't seen any real data but would be very surprised if ecigs are anywhere near as bad as normal cigs. If cigs can get replaced (even if only partially) by ecigs I'm all for it.

[Seph.b]

My worry then would be liquid getting in the hole and shorting out the battery. So I still have to think about it.

Use an adhesive sticker as a burst plate, one of the waxy circle ones sold at office works. It will keep the water out. And should come off when you blow hard through the hole, giving the pressure somewhere to go rather than the alternative.

Good idea, I will do that.

[amyk]

Do test by blowing as suggested though. You might need a surprising amount of pressure to blow out a plug if the hole is too small (since the force on the plug is proportional to the surface area (grows with r²), whereas the friction forces that holds it in place is proportional to the circumference (grows with r), i.e.: you might need significantly more pressure to blow out a small plug than a big). But intuitively a small sticker sounds like it would be perfect in this case.

As long as the "burst disk" ruptures at a pressure lower than that required to make the unit explode --- and vents sufficiently quickly to prevent the pressure going higher --- it would be OK. There might be a bit of a rocket effect, however...