Author Topic: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.  (Read 6234 times)

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Online tom66

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2022, 08:57:31 pm »
A number being irrational does not make it non-existent.  It simply means no fraction exists to represent it.  Do you claim that Pi can be represented with a fraction precisely? 

If so, you either have the greatest mathematical breakthrough known to man (and can surely supply proof upon request) -- or you're wrong.

I'm betting the latter is true, but please, FEEL FREE to show us your Pi fraction.  Be aware that Pi has been calculated to over 100 trillion digits now, and therefore any such fraction is liable to be rather large.
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2022, 09:13:07 pm »
When you see that: https://equitablemath.org/
everything becomes possible.

50% of that stuff is actually common sense if you replace "racism" with "poverty", but it's written like that because the latter wouldn't sell nearly as well in America's egalitarian fundamentalist environment.
50% is promoting the mental gymnastics concept of "PoC" which enables them to excuse dumbasses with the fact that some tribe in some remote forest did something differently and it simply is unreasonable to expect "PoC" to learn things the Eurasian way (which they call "European" and "white" due to their own internalized white supremacy bias).
50% is ignoring the reality that a teacher's first job in a pathological school is keeping the kids from putting a trash can on his head and maths always comes second to that.

Case in point, right from the 1st PDF:
Quote
• Classroom Activity: Learn about different bases and numerical ideas: Base 2, binary and connections to computer programming, how the Yoruba of Nigeria used base 20, and how the Mayans conceptualized the number 0 before the first recording of it.
Yep, "don't worry, base 10 is just a special case of base N" :-DD
 

Offline Peter TaylorTopic starter

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2022, 01:19:13 pm »
Even though $$\varphi = \frac{1 + \sqrt{5}}{2}, \quad \psi = \frac{1 - \sqrt{5}}{2}$$ are irrational numbers, I can calculate the number \$F_n\$,
$$F_n = \frac{\varphi^n - \psi^n}{\varphi - \psi} = \frac{\varphi^n - \psi^n}{\sqrt{5}}$$
for any positive integer \$n\$ without ever calculating any kind of an approximation for \$\varphi\$ or \$\psi\$.

...


"Square root 5" is an unevaluated question: "What number multiplied by itself equals 5" ?

So the result of your formulae is also unevaluated.

An evaluated number is an integer. "Square root 5" is a question. It can't be evaluated as an integer.

Its a question that has no answer because we can only know integers.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 01:50:37 pm by Peter Taylor »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2022, 01:44:32 pm »
Honey, you can’t just go around making up your own rules and definitions about mathematics.  :palm:
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2022, 02:01:22 pm »
Saying sqrt(5) has no solution is like saying 1/5 has no solution because you need to evaluate the fraction to calculate the decimal value.

 :horse:
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 02:03:44 pm by tom66 »
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2022, 02:09:00 pm »
Also, 1/7 = 0.14285714...  can't be expressed as a finite number of decimal digits.  Big deal!  Live with it!
 
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Online ebastler

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2022, 04:20:26 pm »
You guys are operating with those absurd "fractions", which according to P. T. don't exist either...

And I assume "zero" is an illusion as well, since how can "nothing" be a thing? And let's do away with the stupid "infinity" concept while we are at it. And don't get me started about "negative" numbers!
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2022, 04:44:46 pm »
You guys are operating with those absurd "fractions", which according to P. T. don't exist either...

And I assume "zero" is an illusion as well, since how can "nothing" be a thing? And let's do away with the stupid "infinity" concept while we are at it. And don't get me started about "negative" numbers!

Don't stop at infinity - start there with the aleph numbers introduced by Georg Cantor.

0 (aleph-nought, also aleph-zero or aleph-null) is the cardinality of the set of all natural numbers, and is an infinite cardinal. A set has cardinality ℵ0  if and only if it is countably infinite. FFI see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2022, 04:47:26 pm »
"Square root 5" is an unevaluated question: "What number multiplied by itself equals 5" ?

Clearly someone that can't understand the basic premise of algebra. Nuff said :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2022, 04:48:20 pm »
Honey, you can’t just go around making up your own rules and definitions about mathematics.  :palm:

Politicians and others looking to deceive can and do :(
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2022, 06:47:21 pm »
If you believe only integers exist, you're welcome to proverbially blow your mind by the fact that there exist several simple algorithms of extracting digits of Pi –– in hexadecimal, base 16.  For example, David H. Bailey and Helaman Ferguson discovered in 1997 a formula they called PSLQ:
$$\pi = \sum_{k=0}^{\infty} \frac{1}{16^k} \left( \frac{4}{8 k + 1} - \frac{2}{8 k + 4} - \frac{1}{8 k + 5} - \frac{1}{8 k + 6} \right)$$
where each term \$k\$ defines exactly one hexadecimal digit of \$\pi\$.

In general, this subfield is described as "finding integer relations among more than two numbers".

In the physical sense, more than 52 or so hex digits is unnecessary precision, because the diameter of the universe is about 5.4×1061 Planck length units, and there is nothing physically larger nor more precisely measurable.  For computation, especially for intermediate results, more precision is often useful, of course.

The key realization is that just because you cannot write the exact value down in any base, does not mean it isn't a specific value: it is only unwritable, but not unexpressible.  It is perfectly acceptable to define say \$x = \sqrt{5}\$, because there are many formulae where you only ever need \$x^2 = 5\$.

A particular example is Euclidean distances.  In \$N\$ dimensions, the distance \$d\$ from origin to point \$(x_1, x_2, \dots, x_{N-1}, x_N)\$ is \$d = \sqrt{x_1^2 + x_2^2 + \dots + x_{N-1}^2 + x_{N}^2} = \sqrt{\sum_{i=1}^{N} x_i^2}\$.  In many subfields of physics, especially those dealing with lattices, we can determine certain useful properties of materials by just examining the various possible distances between lattice points.  Numerically, it is preferable to do this using functions that return the distance squared, which in a lattice is an integer, because that way we avoid rounding errors.  (Essentially, if you examine a \$(2 L)^N\$ cuboid of points, or rather an \$1/2^N\$ positive cuboid of that with \$L^N\$ lattice points, you get the lattice point distance distribution for distances not exceeding \$L\$, and the points above that distance are discarded.  You save potentially a lot of time (when \$N\$ is large) by only doing the square root operation for display purposes, i.e. when showing the distance histogram.)

Same applies to many cases in 3D computer graphics, especially raycasting and raytracing.  For example, if you're interested in ray-cylinder (right circular cylinder) intersections, check out the formulae at my Wikipedia user page (from 2010); in many cases the square root operation can be omitted.  Note that these formulae are so simple only because the origin of the ray (ie. the focal point of the camera or the eye of the viewer) is at origin!
Because square root is a monotonically increasing function for nonnegative distances, one can use a z-buffer containing squared distances instead of distances themselves, without any effect on the resulting visuals.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 06:53:26 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2022, 06:53:23 pm »
Well, there is something philosophical (probably a bit too much) about the OP's questioning, and it's not completely irrelevant. It's been a very common consideration for centuries. It's not really anymore, but hey. Why not.

The problem with the OP's approach is that it looks more like certainties than questioning.

But on a deeper level, we can still fundamentally question whether the "universe" is really "continuous" or whether it's kind of discrete. It's all a complex matter. No pun intended. We can think of the Planck constant, and stuff. And if it's really discrete, all that would be needed would be integers. Somehow.

But as I hinted earlier, as long as you consider "infinity" to be part of your "number line", then it opens a whole world of peculiarities that bridge the gap between rational and irrational numbers. So, does the OP consider infinity? But here again, since we still don't know for sure whether the universe is infinite or not, if we can't get infinitely small or infinitely big, then what is infinity really?

While this can be all fun as a late-night, drunk discussion, mastering basic mathematics would still be a useful skill here.

Beyond the lunacy, there is something in this topic that kind of reminds me of the topic about electrons.
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2022, 07:48:31 pm »
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline magic

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2022, 10:04:15 pm »
Two pages and still no one has pointed out OP's fundamental error:

Almost all real numbers cannot be described as a solution to any equation, and yet mathematicians will insist that they are there >:D
 

Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2022, 10:26:36 pm »
I have used Fourier transforms in a scope I designed.
It simply outputs buckets of numbers representing frequency and amplitude.
I didn't need to understand how it worked just what needed to be input and what the outputs meant.

Interestingly when I looked online for  FFT code the first three examples didn't work right.
It was only fourth that gave good results.





 

Offline ledtester

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2022, 11:36:35 pm »
Perhaps this is the angle the OP is trying to express:

Quote
Natural numbers were created by God, everything else is the work of men — Kronecker (1823–1891).

Indeed, you could even create the natural numbers from the basic axioms of set theory. Once you have the natural numbers you can create the integers, then the rationals, the reals, complex numbers, etc.

From:

https://www.cantorsparadise.com/kronecker-god-and-the-integers-28269735a638
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2022, 12:18:00 am »
Honey, you can’t just go around making up your own rules and definitions about mathematics.  :palm:
Seem to work for people in other fields on this forum ;) ... "no no, what I define that word to mean is XXXX"
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2022, 12:41:54 am »
Honey, you can’t just go around making up your own rules and definitions about mathematics.  :palm:
Seem to work for people in other fields on this forum ;) ... "no no, what I define that word to mean is XXXX"
Yes, human communication is complex.

When you want to discuss mathematics or physics, you need to agree upon the terms used to refer to things.  That means there are two layers of definitions: there is the English (or human language) definition, and then there is the definition of the physical or mathematical theorem, quantity, object, or rule.  It is the latter that you cannot make up as you go; and the former you are allowed to redefine as you wish, as long as you use specific, detailed, unambiguous human language to do so.

For example, the metal called "Tungsten" in English, is "volframi" in Finnish.  "Addition" in English is "yhteenlasku" in Finnish, and so on.  No problem there.

Trouble happens, when terms are redefined without expressing the definition in precise language.  Graphics artists, for example, can have huge problem grasping a correct intuitive understanding about physical measurables like gravity and volume and especially weight versus mass, because they traditionally redefine these terms with their own definitions that are close enough to cause serious headaches, and have a hard time switching to a new set of definitions.  (And vice versa, I guess!)

This is also why you see myself mentioning things like "quaternions are multiplied using the Hamilton product", because in the context of quaternions, multiplication is a very specific operation with very specific rules, even though it is just "multiplication".  It is always useful to define the human-language terms one uses for mathematical and/or physical references, unless a single commonly accepted definition exists.

The same goes with acronyms: the first layer is the words the acronym expands to –– SPI can refer to Serial Peripheral Interface or to Service Provider Interface in programming, for example –; and the second layer is the thing those words refer to.  For example, if we agree that MOSI refers to Master Out, Slave In, we still need to be in agreement that Master is the one who provides the clock (SCL) line, and Slave is the other one.  Again, the former can be redefined as needed, but the latter must not, or confusion results.
 

Offline ledtester

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2022, 02:22:30 am »
Two pages and still no one has pointed out OP's fundamental error:

Almost all real numbers cannot be described as a solution to any equation, and yet mathematicians will insist that they are there >:D

for the record, I did point this out early on:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/integers-pi-and-number-lines/msg4270255/#msg4270255


 
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Online IanB

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2022, 03:01:12 am »
In classic education, we are taught that a number line contains an infinite number of irrational numbers between each integer. I will show that it should contain only integers.

dy / dx is never evaluated because dx is infinitely small and zero.

When working with Fourier Transforms for example, the terms are introduced into a formulae as a pair to help solve it, and then disappear at the end without ever being evaluated.

The imaginary number "square root -1" is never evaluated, but introduced into a formulae at the start to help solve it, and disappears at the end.

Pi also is not evaluated, but remains the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius.

"Square root 2" likewise is not evaluated, but remains a question: "What value multiplied by itself equals 2 ?".

These are termed irrational "numbers", having no exact value.

But these are not numbers, or values, but questions, or formulae.

If we remove all these non-numbers, or questions, or ratios, or any unevaluated formulae from our number line, we are left only with integer numbers.

So, a number line should contain only integer numbers.

QED.

Since I don't think anyone has really pointed this out yet, I will do so:

You talk about irrational numbers, but you overlook the rational numbers. If you remove all the irrational numbers from the number line, there is still an infinite number of rational numbers, that are not integers, left over.

For example, 1/7 is a rational number that is not an integer. You may protest that is is not exact, and cannot be evaluated. But on the contrary, if we evaluate 1/7 in base 7 arithmetic we get 1/10 (base 7) = 0.1 (base 7) exactly. So 1/7 is clearly exact, and can be evaluated, and is not an integer. The same is true of all the other (non-integer) rational numbers.

Furthermore, if you take any two non-integer, but rational, points on the number line, however close together, you can always find an exact, rational, number that lies between them. So you can zoom into the number line as much as you like, and still find numbers filling the space. Any time you think there might be a gap, you can find infinitely many exact numbers occurring inside that gap.
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2022, 08:27:52 am »
for the record, I did point this out early on:
Well,  :-+ then

This is the only thing that really matters. Irrational numbers are filler junk which is postulated to exist solely for the purpose of ensuring that every Cauchy sequence actually has a limit, because somebody found that to be convenient.

All irrational numbers that one actually calculates with are simply solutions to some equations and they could be regarded as such without insisting that they are "numbers". Indeed, when you handle them, you don't process the numbers, you process the equations they are solution to and thus sqrt(3)·sqrt(5) becomes sqrt(15). And if you need a real-world actionable result, you just pick a nearby rational like 3.87298334620741688518.

So OP isn't even far off the mark, but haters gonna hate.

I have used Fourier transforms in a scope I designed.
It simply outputs buckets of numbers representing frequency and amplitude.
I didn't need to understand how it worked just what needed to be input and what the outputs meant.
Your FFT function only works with rational numbers, too.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2022, 09:14:44 am »
So OP isn't even far off the mark, but haters gonna hate.

Hmm, not sure which original post you read, but the one I see finishes with the following. Which I don't hate, but find rather dumb:

So, a number line should contain only integer numbers.
QED.
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2022, 12:47:24 pm »
Two pages and still no one has pointed out OP's fundamental error:

Almost all real numbers cannot be described as a solution to any equation, and yet mathematicians will insist that they are there >:D

I propose that we stop using a base-10 number system and switch to one that is base-pi. Now, when we draw a number line '1' will land exactly where pi used to. Pi does have an exact value. We couldn't write it down before, but now we can. It's as simple as this: 1. Now all the mathematicians can stop worrying about whether or not pi is really "there" or if it's just a question that never gets evaluated. It really is "there."

Of course the old decimal 1 is gone now. It's no longer "there" or describable as a solution to an equation. Now the old decimal 1 is just a question that never gets evaluated. Sucks if you want to buy some eggs. But still, I think I should win a prize in mathematics.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline kjpye

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2022, 12:49:49 pm »
Actually, in a base-pi number system, pi would be represented as 10. Not quite as simple, but convenient.
 
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Offline Peter TaylorTopic starter

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Re: Integers, Pi, and Number Lines.
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2022, 01:26:05 pm »
In classic education, we are taught that a number line contains an infinite number of irrational numbers between each integer. I will show that it should contain only integers.

dy / dx is never evaluated because dx is infinitely small and zero.

When working with Fourier Transforms for example, the terms are introduced into a formulae as a pair to help solve it, and then disappear at the end without ever being evaluated.

The imaginary number "square root -1" is never evaluated, but introduced into a formulae at the start to help solve it, and disappears at the end.

Pi also is not evaluated, but remains the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its radius.

"Square root 2" likewise is not evaluated, but remains a question: "What value multiplied by itself equals 2 ?".

These are termed irrational "numbers", having no exact value.

But these are not numbers, or values, but questions, or formulae.

If we remove all these non-numbers, or questions, or ratios, or any unevaluated formulae from our number line, we are left only with integer numbers.

So, a number line should contain only integer numbers.

QED.

For example, 1/7 is a rational number that is not an integer ...


I'm cutting a length of pine to a rational length of 24.6 cm's, but I'm also cutting it to an integer length of 246 mm's.

The rational number 0.142857 ... recurring may repeat infinitely but it is still an integer, 1 / 7.

A "nose zing" equals 7 "whisker zings" and I want to cut my timber to a rational length of  3 / 7 th's of a "nose zing", but I'm also cutting it to an integer length of 3 "whisker zings".

A rational number refers to how an integer is represented in our number system, not to the type of number it is.

In LaLa Land, where they use a base 7 number system, 1 / 7 in our base 10 number system is an integer.

My conjecture states that irrational numbers are not numbers, but questions, and that only integers are numbers.

;)

« Last Edit: July 05, 2022, 02:02:07 pm by Peter Taylor »
 


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