Author Topic: IoT  (Read 6470 times)

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Offline WilkseyTopic starter

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Re: IoT
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2022, 03:11:03 pm »
@woody, that is fine if you control the entire system, my original point was that everything these days seems to be IoT enabled but most do not tell you what it is they are enabling, I see some uses for it, as I say it is probably a god send for some disabled folk gives them a bit more independence, it seems to be anything can receive the IoT badge and some people think it is 10 x better.

What's next? An IoT enabled shitter that tells your boss how long you've spent on the toilet that day, he can run monthly reports on your toilet habits.
 

Offline woody

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Re: IoT
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2022, 03:42:44 pm »
Yep, IoT is completely usurped by marketing departments. No idea what it is, but we got to have it.

And to know how long we're on the bog our bosses probably use the surveillance device we all carry voluntarily  :(
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: IoT
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2022, 07:01:03 pm »
I'm guessing that this sprinkler timer qualifies as IoT:

https://www.orbitonline.com/products/b-hyve-smart-indoor-outdoor-irrigation-controller

It has all kinds of features that are reachable over my WiFi and there is an app for iPhone and Android.  Best case is to use my iPad.

So, what's the big deal?  The controller deals with things like weather.  It calls either the mothership or some weather site and decides whether to postpone sprinkling for projected rain or freezing.  This is a really big deal because it is just stupid to waste well water sprinkling in a rain storm.  The absolute last thing I would think of during the day is deciding to shut down the sprinklers for the following day or two.

Out working on sprinkler repair?  Bring the iPad to test zones while doing the work.  It beats shouting and I almost never carry my cellphone.  Or, maybe I'm working alone and don't look forward to walking 100 yards or more to get to the timer.  Even then, I can't really see what is happening.

Yes, it really does make my life easier and, in my view, is what IoT should be about.  True, articulable, convenience.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: IoT
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2022, 08:51:57 pm »
Like literally, they take a single fee for one device when manufactured to access Tuya cloud (less than a dollar from my understanding) and this then grants lifetime access for these functions.

And most people should be aware by now that "lifetime" promises are meaningless.

Accurate - but only useful if the life being timed is specified.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tooki

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Re: IoT
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2022, 10:40:45 pm »
Just bought a new washer & dryer to be delivered next week (LG). The washer has a WiFi capability (but I didn't buy it for that ...). I think I can start the washer when I'm out of the house, maybe if I forgot ... have I ever forgot to start my load of clothes?  :-DD
A friend of mine has Wi-Fi enabled appliances. For everyday use, it’s silly to use an app to choose a wash cycle, for example. But admittedly, for the really oddball items, the app has a decent wizard that guides you through choosing the right cycle for it, and then just sends it right to the machine.

IMHO, the one truly useful feature of the Wi-Fi connectivity is push notifications when the machine is done. My friend has his laundry machines in the basement, and the notifications mean not having to worry about not hearing the beep, or having to go up and down to check.
 

Offline Infraviolet

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Re: IoT
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2022, 10:55:55 pm »
"Smart" devices are usually just a euphemism for surveillance devices, turning the user's private life in to a product.

Who would have ever thought people would pay to install such things to keep tabs on them.

And, ofcourse, for all these "smart" items it ends up being a pretty dumb decision when the company decides to end the products life (or goes bust) and takes down the remote server which it is pointlessly* reliant on.

*If it was about being legitimately smart the devices could be designed to work with a user's local systems, but that remte server becoems a necessaity when the manufacturer's intention is to harvest user data for selling to the highest bidder(s).
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: IoT
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2022, 11:02:34 pm »
I work for a company that makes IoT or Industry 4.0 products.
We are making worldwide supply chains more sustainable, and transportation of liquids more safe. It's a measurable effect.
Industrial accidents were avoided, because something that wasn't connected to the internet before has been connected, and it sent an alarm. Or did you know, that the French railway companies loose hundreds of wagons, they just don't know where it is. You put a GPS tracker on it, then you don't loose it. A wagon is a thing.
Smart toaster ovens with app control is not why IoT is changing everything. And it's not even meant to change everything, just make the existing world a little bit more efficient and livable.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2022, 11:59:30 pm »
I work for a company that makes IoT or Industry 4.0 products.
We are making worldwide supply chains more sustainable, and transportation of liquids more safe. It's a measurable effect.
Industrial accidents were avoided, because something that wasn't connected to the internet before has been connected, and it sent an alarm. Or did you know, that the French railway companies loose hundreds of wagons, they just don't know where it is. You put a GPS tracker on it, then you don't loose it. A wagon is a thing.
Smart toaster ovens with app control is not why IoT is changing everything. And it's not even meant to change everything, just make the existing world a little bit more efficient and livable.

“ Smart toaster ovens with app control is not why IoT is changing everything. And it's not even meant to change everything, just make the existing world a little bit more efficient and livable.”

What chump would entrust the safety of their home to a connected oven? The firmware crashes, or else someone logs in or hacks it, ramps the element up to 100% and you’ve accidentally left food in there…. Whoops! Hello house fire.

Seriously, there’s a deficit of sense these days.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: IoT
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2022, 12:23:49 am »
What chump would entrust the safety of their home to a connected oven? The firmware crashes, or else someone logs in or hacks it, ramps the element up to 100% and you’ve accidentally left food in there…. Whoops! Hello house fire.

Seriously, there’s a deficit of sense these days.
FYI for anyone else seeing that claim: it’s nonsense, in that that is not an actual risk. For one thing, heating appliances have hardware thermal cutouts, often in the form of a resettable thermal breaker at one temperature and a one-time thermal fuse at a higher one.

Secondly, the Wi-Fi modules for major appliances are typically, well, modules that extend the microcontroller system - separate so as to make it easy to sell models with and without Wi-Fi. So the core control of the heating is by the microcontroller that is there either way, and the optional Wi-Fi then sets the modes the controller makes available. It doesn’t have the ability to override the core control loops.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2022, 12:33:42 am »
What chump would entrust the safety of their home to a connected oven? The firmware crashes, or else someone logs in or hacks it, ramps the element up to 100% and you’ve accidentally left food in there…. Whoops! Hello house fire.

Seriously, there’s a deficit of sense these days.
FYI for anyone else seeing that claim: it’s nonsense, in that that is not an actual risk. For one thing, heating appliances have hardware thermal cutouts, often in the form of a resettable thermal breaker at one temperature and a one-time thermal fuse at a higher one.

Secondly, the Wi-Fi modules for major appliances are typically, well, modules that extend the microcontroller system - separate so as to make it easy to sell models with and without Wi-Fi. So the core control of the heating is by the microcontroller that is there either way, and the optional Wi-Fi then sets the modes the controller makes available. It doesn’t have the ability to override the core control loops.

Machines go wrong. Thermal cutouts DO fail, but sense and instinct rarely lets us down - you’re “trusting” machines that involve heating elements being left unattended? You’re LITERALLY inviting trouble, risk and danger into your home. The entire planet never needed a remote cooker before now; why suddenly are people SO short-sighted and complacent? It’s a sci-fi daydream is why.

Wake up. This is SO, SO foolish.
 

Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2022, 12:39:40 am »
When we were children and went on holiday, my Father would walk around the house unplugging EVERY SINGLE mains plug. Now that is UNcommon sense these days, but I still  switch off the oven AT THE MAINS SWITCH after using it, and do the same for the toaster and kettle before I sleep - because I was given sense and a brain for a reason - machines DO FAIL.

Read: https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/14/20802774/june-smart-oven-remote-preheat-update-user-error

And there’ll be more accounts like this I’m sure.

 

Online themadhippy

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Re: IoT
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2022, 12:43:01 am »
Quote
you’re “trusting” machines that involve heating elements being left unattended?
As does a large percentage of the population, cookers are often left powered up  to save having to reset the clock
 
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Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2022, 12:44:30 am »
Quote
you’re “trusting” machines that involve heating elements being left unattended?
As does a large percentage of the population, cookers are often left powered up  to save having to reset the clock
.

Good point. But wilfully turning one on when you’re many miles away is absolutely BRAIN DEAD.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: IoT
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2022, 01:00:31 am »
Actioning devices from a distance is inherently risky. Only monitoring, a lot less so, although in this case, the concern is mainly privacy.

While "IoT" is a bit of a loose term, it defines devices that are connected to the Internet. The ambiguous part is whatever "connected" means here.

Connected and accessible are two different things. One device could be able to access Internet ressources (for instance, to get the current or forecasted weather) in pretty much a "read-only" way, without any feature allowing accessing it remotely. That, I find acceptable and useful without too much issues at all. It would just need a connection to your LAN. Access it privately over your LAN only, and let it pull data from some Internet ressources if needed. End of the story.

The other, and actually most common definition of IoT is a device that can *push* data to a remote server (not just pull as above), and additionally that can be actioned remotely. In both cases, through a remote server owned by a company and on which you need a user account, with all the privacy and security concerns (and sometimes even safety concerns), and of course usually the subscription that comes with it.

The first form would still be very useful and would be perfectly fine for most reasonable uses, but problem is that it wouldn't make any money for companies selling that, except just selling the hardware. Which has almost become a dead marketing end. So companies prefer the latter, with its constant stream of revenue and the ability to make even more by selling your data to third parties.


 

Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2022, 01:37:53 am »
Dangerous “smart ovens”; oops. It seems uncommon sense trumps idealism:

https://phys.org/news/2017-10-flaw-hackers-smart-ovens.amp

https://hackaday.com/2017/04/20/half-baked-iot-stove-could-be-used-as-a-remote-controlled-arson-device/




“ Rogue 'Smart' Ovens Again Highlight How Dumb Tech Is Often The Smarter Choice”

https://www.techdirt.com/2019/08/23/rogue-smart-ovens-again-highlight-how-dumb-tech-is-often-smarter-choice/


Truly smart people understand how STUPID it is to blindly rely on “smart” moniker and assume it makes your life easier. Is there a “smart” device that automatically buys you a new house when the oven burns yours down?

Doh. Double doh!

 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: IoT
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2022, 01:43:10 am »
Many of these WiFi smart apps are provided by Tuya, a Chinese smart device company that has a frickin' weird business model that seems completely unsustainable...

When I want to introduce more elements of home automation I specifically seek out devices using Tuya.
Why?
Because they are so easily converted to NOT be cloud and only talk directly to my Raspberry Pi running Home Assistant.
Google: Tuya Convert
Where are we going, and why are we in a handbasket?
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: IoT
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2022, 02:15:14 am »
If I paid any attention to the presumed failures above, I would give up on my Chevy Bolt because not only is it ALL electric, it is also networked to GM's OnStar system whether I subscribe or not.  They know all about how hard I stomp on the loud pedal.  And they warn me about tire pressure...
 

Offline woody

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Re: IoT
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2022, 06:48:06 am »
If I paid any attention to the presumed failures above, I would give up on my Chevy Bolt because not only is it ALL electric, it is also networked to GM's OnStar system whether I subscribe or not.  They know all about how hard I stomp on the loud pedal.  And they warn me about tire pressure...
`
And not only that. Nothing holds the M3 standing in our driveway from receiving a command over the air, waking up and driving off. No plug I can pull to prevent it. Maybe an old-fashioned chain to the tow-hook  ;D
 

Offline tooki

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Re: IoT
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2022, 07:49:18 am »
Machines go wrong.
Yeah, sometimes.

Thermal cutouts DO fail, but sense and instinct rarely lets us down
That is laughably incorrect. Common sense and instinct are very, very frequently VERY wrong, and risk assessment is precisely an area where they let us down in grand style.

you’re “trusting” machines that involve heating elements being left unattended? You’re LITERALLY inviting trouble, risk and danger into your home.
Just like millions of people around the world. If ovens burning down houses were a significant problem, we’d know about it.

The entire planet never needed a remote cooker before now; why suddenly are people SO short-sighted and complacent? It’s a sci-fi daydream is why.

Wake up. This is SO, SO foolish.
”Suddenly”? Aka the “appeal to tradition” logical fallacy.

Don’t get me wrong; I don’t see any reason why I’d want a Wi-Fi enabled oven. (Unlike the washer and dryer.) But if my landlord were to install an oven with Wi-Fi, I wouldn’t lose one second’s sleep worrying that it was going to cause a fire.

When we were children and went on holiday, my Father would walk around the house unplugging EVERY SINGLE mains plug. Now that is UNcommon sense these days, but I still  switch off the oven AT THE MAINS SWITCH after using it, and do the same for the toaster and kettle before I sleep - because I was given sense and a brain for a reason - machines DO FAIL.
The preference you arrogantly refer to as “common sense” is just that: a preference. Some would say it goes as far as paranoia. Most people, myself included, don’t give it a second’s thought because a century of electrical appliances in widespread use has led to the fundamental bugs being worked out decades ago, and there simply isn’t any evidence of widespread failures.

To reiterate: I’m not stating that it’s categorically impossible, just that it’s so unlikely as to not warrant any worry.

Read: https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/14/20802774/june-smart-oven-remote-preheat-update-user-error

And there’ll be more accounts like this I’m sure.
I’m not surprised that that’s with a device from a startup. The established manufacturers have far more experience designing things.

What would be far more interesting/instructive IMHO is whether there are cases of full size ovens (as opposed to a $1400 glorified toaster oven) having similar malfunctions.
 

Online tom66

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Re: IoT
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2022, 08:00:10 am »
Machines go wrong. Thermal cutouts DO fail, but sense and instinct rarely lets us down - you’re “trusting” machines that involve heating elements being left unattended? You’re LITERALLY inviting trouble, risk and danger into your home. The entire planet never needed a remote cooker before now; why suddenly are people SO short-sighted and complacent? It’s a sci-fi daydream is why.

Wake up. This is SO, SO foolish.

Don't look at your window.  You might realise we let people pilot two-tonne metal boxes after doing a 45 minute exam.

I don't see why anything tooki said is wrong.  You know what else fails?  Normal thermal switches used on regular ovens.  In fact my mothers' oven failed in such a way that it left the gas supply on, so we had to isolate the whole house... eek.
 
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: IoT
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2022, 01:23:38 pm »
I don't see why anything tooki said is wrong.  You know what else fails?  Normal thermal switches used on regular ovens.  In fact my mothers' oven failed in such a way that it left the gas supply on, so we had to isolate the whole house... eek.

Yep, anything made by mankind can fail. But like tooki expressed the long standing companies have proper track records and produce dominantly safe equipment. This is also due to strict regulations put up by governments, like CE markings and "KEMA keur" (A Dutch quality mark)

Having an electric oven without wifi, but with electronic temperature control can also fail, even though it has several safety measures. Same applies for an electric oven that just has a mechanical thermostat. Everything can fail.

Trusting on the safety of IoT dumb or not, I don't know. Do we really need it, I don't know. All I know is that I don't need it per se, and for controlling something like a heating system, I just make my own. Had a 6502 based control system for my central heating in the Netherlands, and now I have a Raspberry PI system that controls the heating system in my house. It is connected to my internal network, but there is no access from the outside world. No need for it.

The advantage of such a system is that you can control the temperature of each room individually, and save energy by doing so.

Offline tggzzz

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Re: IoT
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2022, 06:50:27 pm »
IoT features introduce a completely new class of failure points.

In practice, the new class of failure are all too common. Unless there are real practical benefits to adding IoT features, it is best to avoid such failures by avoiding IoT.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline WilkseyTopic starter

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Re: IoT
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2022, 12:50:42 am »
I've always turned appliances off before going to bed, don't know why really, my father used to do it so I just carried it on.
We have a gas cooker, so the only thing the mains power (13A plug) is the clock and igniters, it has several gas shut off systems built in, yet if I go away for more than a day I turn the actual gas valve to the cooker off.  The TV, Sky box gets turned off at the wall too, the only things running overnight is the fibre modem, wifi router and my servers, not for any particular reason do I turn everything off, just a habit.

I don't have location or gps or wifi / mobile network on my phone unless I need it, then it goes off after I have used it, Bluetooth only goes on if I am connecting to my car's hands free etc.

My BMW has a "connected service" that I can turn things on and off from my phone, but I refuse to pay the stupid subscription when I can go to my car and do it for free.

I am not against "connected things" I think they have their specific places, for example for my previous company I designed a 4G interface unit that hooked up to the Debug port of the device, for monitoring and remote maintenance, we had the MVNO set up a private APN that we could tunnel into through a VPN on their firewall and we could talk to the devices securely, this saved literally hundreds of hours of engineers visits, sometimes they were across the other side of the country.   But a WiFi connected fridge?  Come off it.

I've also used it on a solar install at the rail side to monitor battery usage and capacity and if the thing is getting enough solar energy to keep the batteries charged and run the system.
 

Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2022, 01:59:27 am »
I've always turned appliances off before going to bed, don't know why really, my father used to do it so I just carried it on.
We have a gas cooker, so the only thing the mains power (13A plug) is the clock and igniters, it has several gas shut off systems built in, yet if I go away for more than a day I turn the actual gas valve to the cooker off.  The TV, Sky box gets turned off at the wall too, the only things running overnight is the fibre modem, wifi router and my servers, not for any particular reason do I turn everything off, just a habit.

I don't have location or gps or wifi / mobile network on my phone unless I need it, then it goes off after I have used it, Bluetooth only goes on if I am connecting to my car's hands free etc.

My BMW has a "connected service" that I can turn things on and off from my phone, but I refuse to pay the stupid subscription when I can go to my car and do it for free.

I am not against "connected things" I think they have their specific places, for example for my previous company I designed a 4G interface unit that hooked up to the Debug port of the device, for monitoring and remote maintenance, we had the MVNO set up a private APN that we could tunnel into through a VPN on their firewall and we could talk to the devices securely, this saved literally hundreds of hours of engineers visits, sometimes they were across the other side of the country.   But a WiFi connected fridge?  Come off it.

I've also used it on a solar install at the rail side to monitor battery usage and capacity and if the thing is getting enough solar energy to keep the batteries charged and run the system.

Continuing a “tradition”? Hehe :)

I’d have to ask why you’d continue doing so without questioning “why do I do this?” - this is a good habit, but this “because it’s what my parents always did” behaviour is what sometimes confuses and amuses me about people. The sheer amount of truly idiotic things some people do, just because their folks did it, makes me question whether they’ve ever used any critical thinking 😁

But yeah your adopted tradition has no downside, only upside.
 

Offline WilkseyTopic starter

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Re: IoT
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2022, 12:53:38 pm »
Yeah there are some questionable things my parents used to do that I do not follow, but turning things off is one that makes sense in a way.
My mum used to think everything that was left on was wasting power and my dad used to think that the fuseboard might catch fire (again), so yes, appliances do fail when they are "idle"...
They never had a gas cooker just central heating.
 


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