Author Topic: IoT  (Read 6468 times)

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Offline WilkseyTopic starter

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IoT
« on: December 09, 2022, 11:13:11 pm »
We've all heard the terms IoT or M2M or Cloud, but I'm curious, what do people think of it as a well used marketing phrase, in reality IoT doesn't really mean anything, it just describes how not the what, the amount of start ups i've seen over using the IoT phrase without using it in any context is overwhelming, I still don't know what that business is offering just that it will likely be connected to the internet or a network of some description.
 

Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2022, 01:11:47 am »
We've all heard the terms IoT or M2M or Cloud, but I'm curious, what do people think of it as a well used marketing phrase, in reality IoT doesn't really mean anything, it just describes how not the what, the amount of start ups i've seen over using the IoT phrase without using it in any context is overwhelming, I still don't know what that business is offering just that it will likely be connected to the internet or a network of some description.

Why does it matter? It's all utter bullshit, and pointless gadgetry with the gimmick of it being "smart". Toss it in your mental trash can and forget you ever heard it. SERIOUSLY. Don't waste ANY time on this crock. AT ALL.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: IoT
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2022, 12:52:48 pm »
Currently my favourite example of the IoS(hit) is a Ring doorbelll.

Daughter has a Ring doorbell which sends a message to her phone whenever someone is approaching the door. She also has a delightful, intelligent, very alert small dog with - as the rescue centres term it - a "high prey instinct".

Didn't take long for the dog to recognise the "somebody approaching front door" message, and react accordingly. Even when the door in question is 40 miles away and receding at >=70mph.
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Offline MikeK

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Re: IoT
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2022, 01:05:54 pm »
Over-hyped nonsense.  I laughed when I saw a commercial for a fridge that you can see the contents of from your phone.  The buyers of those things clearly have too much disposable income.
 

Offline Jackster

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Re: IoT
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2022, 06:50:26 pm »
I have quite a handful of clients putting IoT in everything. Even with things that you would not expect or think you would need connectivity, it has a module in it talking back to the cloud.

Once you start adding these devices to your life, they do help in some ways.
I have about a dozen "smart" plugs around the office. They turn certain bits of equipment on and off such as fume extraction, lighting, and even my pick and place machine.

IoT smoke alarm is actually really good. Regular smoke alarms obviously work but these things can alert you while you are not in the property. Lets you tune into the CCTV to watch your life savings go up in flames.
I don't see any issues with "smart" doorbells either. They are just intercoms but over the internet.

My only real issue is that I WANT ONE APP. NOT 1 FOR EACH PRODUCT.


As for the use of the terms. There is always a need for basic terms that anyone can understand. IoT and Cloud are good examples.
If it is labeled as "IoT", I know it has a way to talk to other devices and send messages in or out of a network. It is not just a dumb brick.
"Cloud" is overused and a mess in my opinion. I rent dedicated servers on a monthly basis. That is called a "dedi" or a "root" server. But the same thing was billed by the hour, well that is now a "Cloud" server.
Oh and those "cloud" servers are also just "instances" or what we use to call "VPS". And also the cloud is object storage. And Networking. And SaaS for databases, email, APIs etc.
Oh and also those SaaS things are either just "instances" that are one-click installs ready to go or are "managed" but it is the "cloud" so we don't separate them.

But yea. Too many people are letting these devices take over their lives. There is a limit.


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Offline daqq

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Re: IoT
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2022, 08:26:21 pm »
Most IoT is just useless gimmicks and slapping of buzzwords onto stuff hoping to attract the type of customers who bought a 3D TV five minutes after Avatar 1 came out. But there are uses where it's actually useful and improves the product or simplifies the application - when done properly and safely and when there's an alternative available to when the external server crashes.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: IoT
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2022, 08:32:50 pm »
... And when the company stops the service.
... And when the company deletes your ability to use what you've rented (not bought).

Both of those have occurred in the past, and it is by no means an exclusive list.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Jackster

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Re: IoT
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2022, 09:02:23 pm »
And that is why we need the open source community to hack these devices and create a self hosted service as an alternative.

Online tom66

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Re: IoT
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2022, 10:38:24 pm »
The biggest problem with IoT for me is maintainability.

For instance I've been looking at making our heating system 'smart', and looked at Tado, Drayton Wiser and a few other systems.

All of these systems require a 'phone app',  the Tado system 'strongly suggests' a paid subscription for most of its functionality, but the biggest issue is that there is no guarantee in 10 years time, these things will still work, or if for instance there is an internet outage, I will be able to have a warm house. (In fact, Tado has no way to manually override the heating in this case!)  Nor is their a guarantee the subscription will stay at £3 a month -- or that the free tier will remain.

I really wish that more manufacturers would make a smart system that works locally.  I don't mind having a hub in the house to accommodate this, but it needs to work without a server.  And ideally remote functions would work too, but getting customers to open their router settings and set up DNS is probably a bit too difficult, but would enable self-hosted systems.  I suspect there's no business in doing that, though, so it won't happen any time soon.
 

Offline Traceless

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Re: IoT
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2022, 11:09:24 pm »
Over-hyped nonsense.  I laughed when I saw a commercial for a fridge that you can see the contents of from your phone.  The buyers of those things clearly have too much disposable income.

When you mentioned the fridge I immediately had to think of the scene linked below, I think the conversation pretty much sums it up ;D

"Smart" Fridge
 

Offline Jackster

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Re: IoT
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2022, 11:10:52 pm »
Are there any open source projects for this with actual decent hardware?
Not talking 3d printed stuff.

Id love to get into an open source but decent hardware development program.
It can have a cloud service but also allow end users to host their own of they wish.

Would be nice to replace my crappy dumb thermostats with something that is not owned by Az or Google but actually looks nice.

Online tom66

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Re: IoT
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2022, 11:17:17 pm »
Are there any open source projects for this with actual decent hardware?
Not talking 3d printed stuff.

Id love to get into an open source but decent hardware development program.
It can have a cloud service but also allow end users to host their own of they wish.

Would be nice to replace my crappy dumb thermostats with something that is not owned by Az or Google but actually looks nice.

I think the closest you get is buying Zigbee TRVs and tying them together with a Zigbee bridge running on a Raspberry Pi or similar, with some remote sensors thrown into the mix and some way to actuate a boiler control like with a relay.  Or alter as appropriate for under floor heating, or heatpumps etc., as some of those devices have Zigbee capability.

Technically the tado sensors use 6-LoWPAN which is "open" insofar as it is documented, uses IPv6 under-the-hood and you can get it to work with a TI dev board... but I've no idea if there's some kind of encryption or authentication sitting over the protocol that would make control by non-tado systems a possibility. In my limited Googling, I haven't found anyone who has got this to work, so either it's not an interesting enough problem to solve (fair enough) or it's very difficult to solve (which means even if the protocol is somewhat open, the devices can still go obsolete - not good.)
 

Offline Jackster

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Re: IoT
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2022, 11:28:47 pm »
I think obsolescence is one of those issues that will always be a problem with any smart device.

My current dumb thermostats, while might die in 5-15 years because of silicone/electronics death, won't become obsolete. There is no WiFi or networking that could become a vulnerability point. It just measures the temperature and operates a relay to call the heating.

As soon as you add something that is networked, you are guaranteeing hardware and software obsolescence.
If the software works 10 years down the road, the network and encryption might be broken by then and not something that can be fixed with a software update...

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: IoT
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2022, 12:40:41 am »
All that shit is to make you more dependent, not less so. It's inherently biased towards that goal.

To me, technology should be used to help people get more independent, and more resilient. Not the other way around.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2022, 12:52:58 am »
The day I trust IoT "smart" bollocks to turn on and off crucial things like machines containing ***heating elements*** and LOCKED DOORS behind which are my WORLDLY POSSESSIONS, will be a fine day indeed. In fact, said day will be the 12th of never, or if I'm busy, maybe later.

The public are exceptionally naive to place trust in these gimmicko-doodle-schmuck companies. Too many "opinions" from self-proclaimed "experts" in IT. They can all go #### themselves.

As has been implied, there's almost ZERO benefit to using this garbage, to the customer, and it ALL benefits the repeat sale and subscription model marketing dorks. Since when did humankind become THIS FRIGGIN IDIOTIC?  Now, sadly, is when.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 12:55:50 am by eti »
 

Offline WilkseyTopic starter

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Re: IoT
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2022, 01:41:06 am »
Some strong opinions coming in!

It certainly is an issue with companies going out of business - i've had several "smart" devices stop working because the company went bust and their servers shut down, one was a GPS tracker and the other was a fitness tracker, as soon as they lost contact with their overlord they stopped working, prime example is Dave's latest Sonos video of things being bricked as the company decide they are obsolete and you must upgrade to their newest product.  Subscription models for these things after you've spent a pretty penny on them also takes the proverbial.

The only real benefit to some smart devices are those to help the disabled out, but unless you find an open source device then you are at the manufacturers mercy.  And yes having multiple phone apps to do things are a pain, which is where OpenHAB comes in handy.

I do miss Silicon Valley!  But proves a valid point, why a "smart" fridge?  You may as well just have a shopping list on your phone, my nephew not that long ago went on a spending spree on my brother in law's Alexa, all conveniently linked to credit cards with no barriers to ordering, had all manners of items turn up as and when he saw an advert on TV he used to tell Alexa he wanted one as he saw his parents order shopping and bits through Alexa he knew how to do it.

Cloud based services are also overused, a product my wife uses at her workplace is cloud based, they got hacked and the servers compromised and thousands of peoples financial information was stolen before they realised and the servers were shut off for 2 weeks whilst they investigated and repaired, the company was an accounting software one so god knows how many people lost access to their fancy cloud platform on that occasion!

Personally I steer well clear of any devices that need registering or I don't have the software for secured and downloadable.

Even cars have buttons to press instead of a key or things to swipe over, but have a "hidden" key just in case, why not just use a bloody key!  The amount of times I get "Key not detected" because I've got it in my pocket instead of smearing it over the dashboard somewhere drives me bonkers!

IoT and other buzz words are becoming a toxic presence, everything is sold with an IoT or Cloud badge these days, and people are gullible and fall for the hype until it stops working.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: IoT
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2022, 02:01:37 am »
Just bought a new washer & dryer to be delivered next week (LG). The washer has a WiFi capability (but I didn't buy it for that ...). I think I can start the washer when I'm out of the house, maybe if I forgot ... have I ever forgot to start my load of clothes?  :-DD
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Online themadhippy

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Re: IoT
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2022, 02:26:19 am »
Quote
I think I can start the washer when I'm out of the house
but can you load it when your out the house
 

Online xrunner

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Re: IoT
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2022, 02:30:52 am »
Quote
I think I can start the washer when I'm out of the house
but can you load it when your out the house

I haven't read the manual yet - I'll get back to you on that.  :-+
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Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2022, 03:41:46 am »
No matter how “smart” these companies like to project that their technology is (and it isn’t), the sheer idiocy of these “developers” is staggering.

On my UK Amazon Fire TV, I have “BBC iPlayer” app installed. 90% of the time I click the iPlayer icon on the Home Screen and it launches. Just now, I clicked it and it took me to the Fire TV App Store where it had a “Play Button” icon on the left, indicating that “iPlayer” app is installed - and I then click this “play button” and THAT launches “iPlayer” app.

Why?!?!?!?!? You utter morons. Why not fix your piece of garbage bodged together lagDroid derivative OS; Roku seem to be able to make things work consistently and uniformly… so why not these chumps?!

Never underestimate the power of threatening your chimpanzee interns with a hard punch in the face and instant dismissal.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 03:43:53 am by eti »
 

Offline eti

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Re: IoT
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2022, 03:48:15 am »
Some strong opinions coming in!

It certainly is an issue with companies going out of business - i've had several "smart" devices stop working because the company went bust and their servers shut down, one was a GPS tracker and the other was a fitness tracker, as soon as they lost contact with their overlord they stopped working, prime example is Dave's latest Sonos video of things being bricked as the company decide they are obsolete and you must upgrade to their newest product.  Subscription models for these things after you've spent a pretty penny on them also takes the proverbial.

The only real benefit to some smart devices are those to help the disabled out, but unless you find an open source device then you are at the manufacturers mercy.  And yes having multiple phone apps to do things are a pain, which is where OpenHAB comes in handy.

I do miss Silicon Valley!  But proves a valid point, why a "smart" fridge?  You may as well just have a shopping list on your phone, my nephew not that long ago went on a spending spree on my brother in law's Alexa, all conveniently linked to credit cards with no barriers to ordering, had all manners of items turn up as and when he saw an advert on TV he used to tell Alexa he wanted one as he saw his parents order shopping and bits through Alexa he knew how to do it.

Cloud based services are also overused, a product my wife uses at her workplace is cloud based, they got hacked and the servers compromised and thousands of peoples financial information was stolen before they realised and the servers were shut off for 2 weeks whilst they investigated and repaired, the company was an accounting software one so god knows how many people lost access to their fancy cloud platform on that occasion!

Personally I steer well clear of any devices that need registering or I don't have the software for secured and downloadable.

Even cars have buttons to press instead of a key or things to swipe over, but have a "hidden" key just in case, why not just use a bloody key!  The amount of times I get "Key not detected" because I've got it in my pocket instead of smearing it over the dashboard somewhere drives me bonkers!

IoT and other buzz words are becoming a toxic presence, everything is sold with an IoT or Cloud badge these days, and people are gullible and fall for the hype until it stops working.

It would be amazing if some Russians could hack these shitty cloud services and bring them crashing down without chance of recovery. All the “big names” with their sheer arrogance and disdain, need a cyber kick in the balls.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: IoT
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2022, 04:02:21 am »
It's just marketing now I assume. Like the washing machine - I couldn't care less about it being WiFi ready. But if they don't put that in, some competitor will add it to their product, and they will say that theirs has more features. So here we go, get ready for toasters, vacuum cleaners, and toilets to all be IoT.
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Online tom66

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Re: IoT
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2022, 09:21:51 am »
Many of these WiFi smart apps are provided by Tuya, a Chinese smart device company that has a frickin' weird business model that seems completely unsustainable.

Like literally, they take a single fee for one device when manufactured to access Tuya cloud (less than a dollar from my understanding) and this then grants lifetime access for these functions.

It's basically a Ponzi scheme, as long as people keep buying this tat they'll be fine, but if they stop the cloud will lose its funding.

Well the question is... how many smart lightbulbs can you buy??

Also, it doesn't seem 'great' to be giving remote control of all sorts of devices over to a single company, in a country not known to be in favour of privacy and independence.
 

Offline MikeK

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Re: IoT
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2022, 11:49:00 am »
Like literally, they take a single fee for one device when manufactured to access Tuya cloud (less than a dollar from my understanding) and this then grants lifetime access for these functions.

And most people should be aware by now that "lifetime" promises are meaningless.
 

Offline woody

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Re: IoT
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2022, 01:17:57 pm »
While I absolutely share the overall sentiment here regarding IoT in toasters and the like I think some of the technology has nice possibilities for cheaply networking your own 'things'.

I made a monitoring device (prototype) that uses LoRaWan. You could network this device over a semi-public network like TTN or a proprietary network like (in NL) TTI or KPN . But then you're dependent on their continuous presence and they make you pay for every step. You can also do it yourself. ATM my device talks via my own gateway to my own NS/AS that feeds the information to a (web)app. Most of these components (except the LoRa modems) are open source and are run on my own hardware.

Devices are relatively cheap, take very little power, are usable over a solid range and enable one to put networked stuff in places where this was not feasible before.
 


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