General > General Technical Chat
Is Altium free anywhere?
tooki:
--- Quote from: Zero999 on May 15, 2023, 06:17:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on May 15, 2023, 07:59:51 am ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on May 14, 2023, 09:50:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on May 14, 2023, 04:30:21 pm ---Basically, "KiCad is just as good as Altium" is a typical open-source software fanboy claim. It's just as untrue as the claims that "LibreOffice is just as good as Microsoft Office"
--- End quote ---
I don't know about Altium vs KiCAD, but I have to disagree with you about LibreOffice vs MS Office. I find MS Office virtually unusable. It's appalling. LibreOffice is much better. I've taken work home, just so I can use LibreOffice, because MS Office is too slow and clunky. It's not a matter of taking time to get used to it. I've used plenty of other GUIs in my time, not just on Windows, but other platforms and have definitely found MS Office to be one of the worst.
--- End quote ---
Forget about the user interface for a moment. (Especially since that is, to an extent, a matter of taste and familiarity.)
The issue is that LibreOffice's feature set isn't nearly as broad. It's more than enough for basic tasks, but it's simply missing many advanced things. So when people say it's "just as good", they're people who have yet to run into the absence of a feature. They don't consider that the other features are used by other people, and aren't just useless fluff.
(Also, they're much less disciplined about API stability. I worked at a software company whose product integrates with word processors. LibreOffice Writer was a constant problem, because the scripting API would often break with updates. Word's scripting and add-on APIs just worked. To this day they haven't even bothered trying to make an add-on for Writer.)
It's the same with the other examples I gave: the feature sets simply are not there. They may be adequate for casual users. (Including people who occasionally use them for professional work.) But they aren't sufficiently feature-rich for serious professional use. You need features that simply aren't there. You may be able to achieve the same end result, but it'll take more work in the less-capable program, so with time being money, professionals will pay for the more efficient tool. And that's precisely why professionals aren't going to switch to KiCad in droves anytime soon.
--- End quote ---
What features does MS Office have that you absolutely need?
I've found MS Office to be much worse than LO, when it comes to transferring files between versions. It would regularly break things more often. Pick your poison.
--- End quote ---
I didn’t say it wasn’t good enough for me so asking me for how it’s insufficient for me is not a fair question.
Even so, “absolutely need” is a different bar from “good enough”, which is basically how it’s presented.
Regardless, the situation is really simple: if it were “good enough” for most situations, it would be dominant in most environments. But it isn’t, so clearly it’s not good enough.
Ultimately, what annoys me is open source zealots who declare “it’s equivalent!” without understanding users’ needs. It’s dishonest, and that annoys me. A fair comparison acknowledges that the commercial product may have some real advantages, and the open source product may have some real disadvantages. But the fawning over the open source software is often religious, not based on actual experience in using it in a given situation.
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: Simon on May 14, 2023, 12:38:23 pm ---
--- Quote from: Faringdon on May 14, 2023, 11:09:36 am ---Any country who has it for free, is massively advantaged in the world of electronics.
I am pretty certain you can get Altium licenses for next to nothing in certain parts of the world.....ive had people tell me this, who are from those places.
All i can say is "come on KICAD".
At least you can learn it for free....and use it for free.
--- End quote ---
If you are a student you will get access via university for the duration of your studies, the reason why is obvious, it's not very obvious as to why giving your work away would do you any good, would you work for free?
KiCAD is quite usable, I went back to it after my escapade with circuit studio which is just Altium Designer really without the later features.
--- End quote ---
Given the OP, my first question would be whether anyone would pay him for one of his SMPS designs.
My second question would be in what way for his tasks a free Altium would make someone "... massively advantaged ...", given that KiCAD really is free. (Or is it merely a case of a bad workman blaming their tools?)
My third question would be whether the OP has returned to his traditional random questions eventually leading to "China is unfair" rants.
EDIT: reading more of the thread, I am completely unsurprised :(
floobydust:
--- Quote from: Simon on May 15, 2023, 08:43:39 pm ---Yes but if you know one program and have to use anther because say your new job uses it then I don't see the drama, if someone is going to make a fuss on their CV about which PCB program they are a master of then I'm not sure they will switch easily :)
--- End quote ---
It's not as trivial as you expect and who are you to say the switch is easy?
One engineering team I worked with got the command from corporate HQ to dump _____ and change over to Mentor. A political move.
Anyway, the handful of engineers struggled to get up to speed with the software and couldn't. It's terrible to "learn as you go", nothing intuitive, no on-line help etc.
Group meetings, placing calls to their Support line... we were told you also had to have taken their courses on the software.
"Oh, how much are these?" Well, it was thousands of dollars and of course corporate laughed and said no way, suck it up, it wasn't budgeted.
The entire engineering team got screwed by having different software dumped in their lap, no consideration or awareness of the learning curve or training required because asshole exec's never actually use the stuff.
The Project Schedule is expected to keep rollin' with no delays. Since product development is always a crisis, it was a great way to scuttle the team's productivity. Dumbest move I've ever seen. And to maintain old product designs you still needed licenses for the old software.
Simon:
--- Quote from: tooki on May 15, 2023, 08:54:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on May 15, 2023, 06:17:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on May 15, 2023, 07:59:51 am ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on May 14, 2023, 09:50:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on May 14, 2023, 04:30:21 pm ---Basically, "KiCad is just as good as Altium" is a typical open-source software fanboy claim. It's just as untrue as the claims that "LibreOffice is just as good as Microsoft Office"
--- End quote ---
I don't know about Altium vs KiCAD, but I have to disagree with you about LibreOffice vs MS Office. I find MS Office virtually unusable. It's appalling. LibreOffice is much better. I've taken work home, just so I can use LibreOffice, because MS Office is too slow and clunky. It's not a matter of taking time to get used to it. I've used plenty of other GUIs in my time, not just on Windows, but other platforms and have definitely found MS Office to be one of the worst.
--- End quote ---
Forget about the user interface for a moment. (Especially since that is, to an extent, a matter of taste and familiarity.)
The issue is that LibreOffice's feature set isn't nearly as broad. It's more than enough for basic tasks, but it's simply missing many advanced things. So when people say it's "just as good", they're people who have yet to run into the absence of a feature. They don't consider that the other features are used by other people, and aren't just useless fluff.
(Also, they're much less disciplined about API stability. I worked at a software company whose product integrates with word processors. LibreOffice Writer was a constant problem, because the scripting API would often break with updates. Word's scripting and add-on APIs just worked. To this day they haven't even bothered trying to make an add-on for Writer.)
It's the same with the other examples I gave: the feature sets simply are not there. They may be adequate for casual users. (Including people who occasionally use them for professional work.) But they aren't sufficiently feature-rich for serious professional use. You need features that simply aren't there. You may be able to achieve the same end result, but it'll take more work in the less-capable program, so with time being money, professionals will pay for the more efficient tool. And that's precisely why professionals aren't going to switch to KiCad in droves anytime soon.
--- End quote ---
What features does MS Office have that you absolutely need?
I've found MS Office to be much worse than LO, when it comes to transferring files between versions. It would regularly break things more often. Pick your poison.
--- End quote ---
I didn’t say it wasn’t good enough for me so asking me for how it’s insufficient for me is not a fair question.
Even so, “absolutely need” is a different bar from “good enough”, which is basically how it’s presented.
Regardless, the situation is really simple: if it were “good enough” for most situations, it would be dominant in most environments. But it isn’t, so clearly it’s not good enough.
Ultimately, what annoys me is open source zealots who declare “it’s equivalent!” without understanding users’ needs. It’s dishonest, and that annoys me. A fair comparison acknowledges that the commercial product may have some real advantages, and the open source product may have some real disadvantages. But the fawning over the open source software is often religious, not based on actual experience in using it in a given situation.
--- End quote ---
I can tell you how shit MS excel is, scientists just gave up trying to stop excel changing the name of a gene into a date and just changed the name of the gene. I have also been constantly frustrated by how excel decides for you and destroys data. I use Libreoffice calc instead as it is quicker for doing the simple stuff as it does not get in the way all the time trying to be "helpful". I found a similar thing with word versus writer, I just got so fucking fed up with word changing what I had done as it decided what I was trying to do and was wrong all the time with no obvious way to stop it.
But I agree, just assuming that the open source stuff is better just because it's open source is not a good starting point. I find that either commercial developers do not use their own product or that they work for a stupid taskmaster that dictates also without using their own product. On the other hand I have tended to find that open source stuff is written by the people using it so they tend to nat make their lives and that of any other user an utter missery - there are exceptions of course and many free programs were clearly written to serve a niche so tight that you wonder why the developer bothered releasing the monstrosity that solved their particular problem onto the bewildered public.
Simon:
--- Quote from: floobydust on May 15, 2023, 09:15:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: Simon on May 15, 2023, 08:43:39 pm ---Yes but if you know one program and have to use anther because say your new job uses it then I don't see the drama, if someone is going to make a fuss on their CV about which PCB program they are a master of then I'm not sure they will switch easily :)
--- End quote ---
It's not as trivial as you expect and who are you to say the switch is easy?
One engineering team I worked with got the command from corporate HQ to dump _____ and change over to Mentor. A political move.
Anyway, the handful of engineers struggled to get up to speed with the software and couldn't. It's terrible to "learn as you go", nothing intuitive, no on-line help etc.
Group meetings, placing calls to their Support line... we were told you also had to have taken their courses on the software.
"Oh, how much are these?" Well, it was thousands of dollars and of course corporate laughed and said no way, suck it up, it wasn't budgeted.
The entire engineering team got screwed by having different software dumped in their lap, no consideration or awareness of the learning curve or training required because asshole exec's never actually use the stuff.
The Project Schedule is expected to keep rollin' with no delays. Since product development is always a crisis, it was a great way to scuttle the team's productivity. Dumbest move I've ever seen. And to maintain old product designs you still needed licenses for the old software.
--- End quote ---
I'm not talking about changing over within the same organization or using something that apparently is hard work. I have used several and they are generally about the same. I'd not expect a new person to be just turning new boards out next day but if knowing one program is such a skill then uh. You got a problem.
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