Author Topic: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?  (Read 16414 times)

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Offline madires

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2021, 03:02:26 pm »
But what have you 'Learnt' ???

In the worst case? How to use an Arduino and its IDE. ;D Arduino can be just a tool or toy, like many drive a car or use a PC without knowing how it works. If you touch an Arduino it doesn't mean that you'll become an EE or software developer. However, for some it can open a door to a new and fascinating world with many things to learn. It's up to you to decide which way to go - not for me telling you what to do or to learn. And when someone is really interested in electronics he will learn about the basics sooner or later anyway.
 
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Offline jonovid

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2021, 03:26:10 pm »
in my opinion NO ,  Arduino can do the work of 3 or 4 555 timer ic's , 2 or 3 TTL gates in one ic saving you a lot of work.
this is more then a blinky LED its a LED that can do morse code or tv remote code.  :-+
it would be great to see other miro's like 6 or 8 pin ic's added to Arduino library were pcb space is minimal.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2021, 03:35:33 pm »
If you enjoy simple projects using discrete components,  many of the old books for the beginning hobbyist are available on-line.   

https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Bookshelf_Hobbyist.htm
 
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2021, 03:57:18 pm »
It's always good to have options.

The only objection I have is against the culture of forcing choices down our throats. To me it looks like it's much better now than it was when Arduino was new and so freaking trendy you were not cool if you did anything else.

Today those who started playing with Arduino are designing full boards from scratch and ordering them manufactured from JLCPCB.
 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2021, 05:04:20 pm »
My example about the blinking LED was from a forum where a 100% noob asked how one could get a LED to blink, there were no precision or special demands, it was a simple "first-time" projects. Other project in same type: a tone generator, electronic dice, fading LED and all these projects that one may have seen as a young kid. They were all "you have to build a circuit, get the right components, get the PCB made and maybe will it not even work.

Giving an absolute beginner on those projects the suggestion to start with an Arduino is the best advice.  It will both solve their immediate problem and get them stated on a crucial skill for hobbyist electronics in the modern world. It also provides a lot more possibility for extension after they solve the first problem: ok you have a flashing LED.  Now you want to make that on a timer?  Or trigger it with a PIR or ultrasonic range finder?  You want your electronic dice to log rolls or send them via SMS?  Or change from d6 to d20 at the press of a button? The Arduino gives you a lot of options, some of which can be implemented with simple analog / discrete digital logic and others cannot.

I would only give someone the 555 suggestion as an alternative to the Arduino, or if they specially wanted a more discrete solution, or if they had specific requirements such as size, parts cost, or something.

Arduino is far from perfect and I certainly groan when I see it in a "professional" product although if it does the job it can make sense.  But the complaining about people learning electronics through Arduino is just silly "old man yells at cloud" nonsense.
 
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Offline ataradov

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2021, 05:13:27 pm »
Another thing with 555 is that you automatically need to stock a range of capacitors and resistors to be able to adjust the period. Do either your costs or your frustration go up right away. With Arduino it is just adjusting one number in the code.

Also, even for a final production solution the cheapest generally available MCU costs as much as 555 in low quantities. And 555 needs a lot of other components with very specific value. The MCU needs a bypass capacitor of virtually any value if you feel generous.
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Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2021, 05:40:17 pm »
I am not saying that an MCU in not a fantastic tool or almost 100% necessary in many projects, unless you have an engineering degree.
Yes you can maybe not get every function as an add-on but it's not far from, and if you can't get an add-on, then is it something special. In the situations where you can not get an add-on, do the learning curve skyrocket, you do have to design a PCB who fits on the MCU board, who conform to the standard, is able to be coded into the project, with the right components, the right layout and so on. You could add the expectation on top of that, a 100% noob do only know what is professional possible but have no idea of what it takes, so a "I'll just need a gyroscopic module with elevation sensor, looking like the other add-ons.

Some of you have talked about the price, please forgive me but I do not think most of us is considering if our project costs $10 and could be solved by a $1 nano Arduino. Do we not build electronic for the share fun and challenge without thinking "gee I could get a pro solution for $1.99 at Walmart? :-)

What do you think of those who is realistic toward a 100% noob and says "if you want to make a blinker do you need to learn to solder, design your PCB, find the right components, expect it not to work and start all over again! It's easier if you just take an Arduino."?
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Offline ataradov

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2021, 06:11:31 pm »
In the situations where you can not get an add-on, do the learning curve skyrocket, you do have to design a PCB who fits on the MCU board, who conform to the standard, is able to be coded into the project, with the right components, the right layout and so on.
  You can always just make it on a protoboard. It does not have to be in the Arduino form factor.

And I definitely used Arduino shield board for experiments with new devices without Arduino, simply because  I did not feel like making a board and sourcing the component for a quick test. So in this way Arduino ecosystem contributes to "professional" market too.

Some of you have talked about the price, please forgive me but I do not think most of us is considering if our project costs $10 and could be solved by a $1 nano Arduino. Do we not build electronic for the share fun and challenge without thinking "gee I could get a pro solution for $1.99 at Walmart? :-)
In most of my hobby projects I consider economic side of things, even if it is just a one off. I may use more expensive components, because I may not care for one off, but I always consider if there is a possible substitution. It is just a good practice.

What do you think of those who is realistic toward a 100% noob and says "if you want to make a blinker do you need to learn to solder, design your PCB, find the right components, expect it not to work and start all over again! It's easier if you just take an Arduino."?
They are realistic and it is a good advice.

Investing in learning something deeply only makes sense if you already know that this is something you want to do professionally. 

Most of "professionals" here started with electronics kits with pre-made PCBs. And that was not much of a creative thing and did not require a lot of understanding, but nobody was on their ass saying that they should source all the components and make the PCB themselves.

Just like with some AM radio kit, with Arduino there is a lot to be learned from assembling the thing from readily made components and experimenting/debugging it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 06:13:08 pm by ataradov »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2021, 06:20:48 pm »
Some started with solderless electronics science kits. It's not important how you start, it's about getting bitten by the electronics bug. Maybe a kid just wants to blink an LED for fun and won't get bitten. If bitten, the kid will start asking about how things work. Then you got the chance to explain astable multivibrators.

I started with those, the kind with the springy connectors and components mounted on a cardboard frame. From there I went to solderless breadboards and then soldering point to point on protoboards. Often I would (and still do) prototype something on a breadboard and then make a PCB and build the permanent circuit on that. For microcontroller projects I regularly prototype on an Arduino and then make a custom board for the finished project. Sometimes for a one-off I'll just solder the Arduino Nano clone to a protoboard and call it good, it works, it's cheap, and the prototype is the only one I'll ever need so why bother to make a custom PCB? Either way almost every project requires some custom discrete circuitry to work, every microcontroller requires a power source, decoupling, transistors or other devices for driving outputs, signal conditioning on inputs, etc.
 
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Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2021, 09:35:45 pm »
A breadboard, point to point or even home edged PCB's is really a joy to make and lol inside a box is it not even visible for anybody if you stopped there. :-)
But nothing compares to a well-designed PCB you have got made, got soldered and is just working.

I think if one as a hobbyist is considering if buy or DIY is cheapest, even up to $100 is that person forgetting it will always be cheaper to buy. If DIY, do you have to calculate in all your gear, time, components, board production, consumables, electricity, space you pay rent for and a lot more. Electronic one offs at home can always only remain an expense, just like painting, sowing, photography and all these hobbies.

My concern about the MCU may be due to seeing woodworking change so much and the hobby going from an art in manual skills to 3D drawing and "push print"
In the start did you have to know how a saw works, keep your hand plane chisels sharp, later did the bandsaw, table saw and surface planer and made everything easier. After that did the CNC arrive and everything changed to sitting behind a monitor, drawing in 3D and get the computer to cut it for you.
MCU is also behind the monitor and press upload.

Knitting can be done behind a monitor, woodworking, electronic, sculpturing and a lot more, it just takes something away, do I think. :-)
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Offline ataradov

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2021, 09:52:34 pm »
If you think CNC is easy, you clearly have never tried it. It is just different, but you need to figure out A LOT of stuff before it is just "press a button". And just like Arduino, CNC lets you make things that you could never have made with regular hand tools.

None of this means hobby is dead.

I get "old man yells at clouds" vibe from this thread.

Also, making PCBs at home was never fun or easy. It was a necessity, and as soon as ordering PCBs became an option, everyone switched to that. And now you also sit in front of the computer designing your perfect PCB, bummer.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 09:55:57 pm by ataradov »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2021, 10:35:46 pm »
CNC is very hard. The machines do exactly what you instruct them to do, *exactly*, if you tell it to run the spindle full speed and then smash the tool into the table at max feedrate the machine will happily do that, once. This means you have to know all about manual machining and on top of that you have to know how to operate the CAD/CAM software, create the toolpaths, and set up the machine. It makes it easy to make a bunch of something once you have it dialed in, and it enables making things that are too complex to reasonably machine by hand but it does not make machining any easier. If you don't use the proper techniques you'll make a lot of scrap, break a lot of expensive cutters and potentially do some very expensive damage to the machines.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2021, 10:48:55 pm »
Yeah, pretty much the only aspect that CNC removes from manual machining is the physical act of winding the handles.
The rest of a machinists skills are still necessary and a bunch more as well.

 

Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2021, 12:27:10 am »
I think you misunderstand me MCU, CNC and all programming can be very hard to do and it can be a true art with beauty!
Seeing a greatly designed board, well sought out components and beautiful soldering can also end up in being art.
These two thing is just not the same. I am not longing for the "good" old days, but I am fearing that discrete components may be going in the same way many THT components has gone because SMD is so much "easier" and takes up less space.

Since I know most about woodworking do I give that as an example, I think you have three main types of woodworking and none of them is better than the other, they are just different, but one do push the other away. You have:
1) Hand woodworking where no electricity are being used and everything is done by pure labor-skills.
2) Machine woodworking where electric tools are a big part of it and is helping one to reach results only few Hand woodworkers can ever reach.
3) Digital woodworker where only two tools is needed and everything is done by a CNC machine, all the skills lie in the programming on the computer.

You do almost never see hand woodworking anymore, this is a skill nearly nobody has the patience to learn.

Will MCU do the same to the hand-soldere?
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Offline ataradov

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2021, 01:07:53 am »
You do almost never see hand woodworking anymore, this is a skill nearly nobody has the patience to learn.
Yes, because it is a wste of the most precious resource - time. The only time you will do it if you explicitly interested in the process of hand wood working and consider it time well spent. And there will always be people that do that. The same way as there are still people using steam powered machines.

The goal of working with electronics for a lot of people is not the fact of working, but achieving the result they need for their actual hobby. Someone may make an Arduino controller automatic plant watering device. They don't care about electronics, they care about growing plants. Arduino is just a tool.

There a lot of people doing some hardcore electronics because they are explicitly interested in electronics, those people are not going away.

Will MCU do the same to the hand-soldere?
You can hand solder MCUs, those things are orthogonal to each other.
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Offline John B

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2021, 08:37:12 am »
Without searching, I'm pretty sure this exact topic has been covered before on EEVBlog. When it comes to implementing logic, it's now practically impossible to walk past microcontrollers.

I've spent the last few days building a python program to control a lighting interface on an RPi. I mean, blinking LEDs without a full screen colour GUI and internet access? Lmao what year is this, 1990?
 
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Online DiTBho

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2021, 10:17:04 am »
it's now practically impossible to walk past microcontrollers.

That's the usual sentence, written by those who think they have to use python to blink a led  ;D
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Offline dl6lr

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2021, 10:18:52 am »
I did! My older brother got this kit when I was a little kid. He played with it 3 times and that was it.
Than I took posession of it and I got addicted for the rest of my life.



Oh, that is the newer version with plastic board, I started with the older Philips 1003/1004/1005/1006 with peg-board.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2021, 11:32:34 am »
in my opinion Arduino is a trade mark.  for do it yourself programmable computers on integrated circuits, before this we had
fixed single function integrated circuits as in the 555, before this transistor to transistor logic,  vacuum tubes and telephone exchange technology.
history can get complicated if we try to add everything invented before we got here.   

in my opinion, the history of electronics is important from an educational point of view.
because electronics is so complicated and diverse, starting at the beginning and continuing to the present time.
is a good place to start. the skill is knowing what parts of electronics history are important for getting to the final conclusion.
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2021, 03:20:12 pm »
in my opinion Arduino is a trade mark.  for do it yourself programmable computers on integrated circuits, before this we had
fixed single function integrated circuits as in the 555, before this transistor to transistor logic,  vacuum tubes and telephone exchange technology.
history can get complicated if we try to add everything invented before we got here. 

Don't forget, in the timeline between 555 and Arduino there was the PIC.  Less up-front EE knowledge needed than the 555, but not as newbie-friendly as the Arduino.  And I think it's all good.

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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2021, 04:58:31 pm »
in my opinion, the history of electronics is important from an educational point of view.
because electronics is so complicated and diverse, starting at the beginning and continuing to the present time.
is a good place to start. the skill is knowing what parts of electronics history are important for getting to the final conclusion.

Agree!! When I was an adjunct creating and teaching some grad school courses on RFIC design, I tried to convince folks at the university that a really good Electronics History course is not an option for a good well rounded EE student but a requirement, they didn't agree and no course |O

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Offline ataradov

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2021, 05:11:52 pm »
Again, you need to separate people for whom electronics is just a part of the hobby, not something they want to focus on. For students, I guess it is different, since they decided it is more than just a hobby.

I also would ignore any organized history courses. They tend to focus a lot on personalities, sometimes going to the cult-like extremes, especially if prof is a fanboy. And I don't care about the people behind stuff, they are irrelevant and the history is often distorted anyway.

But at the same time I agree 100% that learning about history of the field is extremely useful for modern designs. There is a lot of stuff Apollo-era electronics and computer design that still applies.

But I also would not start with it. It is useful to extend your knowledge and understand how the things you are working on fit into a bigger picture. If you are just learning and not working on anything, then there is no bigger picture yet. So the history should really be introduces as part of the actual course.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2021, 05:41:07 pm »
in my opinion Arduino is a trade mark.  for do it yourself programmable computers on integrated circuits, before this we had
fixed single function integrated circuits as in the 555, before this transistor to transistor logic,  vacuum tubes and telephone exchange technology.
history can get complicated if we try to add everything invented before we got here. 

Don't forget, in the timeline between 555 and Arduino there was the PIC.  Less up-front EE knowledge needed than the 555, but not as newbie-friendly as the Arduino.  And I think it's all good.

By the way, CNC can be done easy and sleazy -- that's how I do it.  I mill simple fixtures and panels, and do an adequate but hardly expert job.  Before CNC I did shoddy work with a drill, saw, and file, so the only thing that's really changed is I have more tools available to be not-an-expert with.

There was the AVR before it got used in the Arduino, that was the first microcontroller I worked with. It was one of the first that had a BASIC compiler for it which made it easy to get started, and it could be programmed with very cheap hardware.

Regarding CNC, it sounds like you already had the machining skills, maybe not expert level but you knew the basics and were able to fabricate stuff. CNC has increased the precision and saved you the time of twirling the dials, but it didn't just magically make it easy to make the stuff, you still had to know what you were doing to some degree.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2021, 07:08:06 pm »
I don't know whether "hobby electronics" has fewer or more adepts these days than it used to. I really don't know or have any relevant figures.

One thing I know: it's easier and much cheaper than ever to do it. Heck, we used to stick to a few books, magazines, parts from your local electronics store, and occasionally a few parts ordered, usually from order forms found in magazines. :) Cool and fun days. But still, these days you can find an gigantic amount of information for free within a few clicks. You can order cheap parts and get them within a couple days. Even a decent soldering iron would cost something back then.

Now it would be interesting to ponder to what extent this much easier access has made people in general lose interest. I think this is actually a well known effect.
We can also notice youngsters tend to shy away from technical activities these days. That can be seen in the studies they follow and jobs they take. But this trend may have little or nothing to do with the above.

As to Arduino having any impact on all this - probably none.  But what I said above about electronics in general is all the more true for "embedded" development. Using microcontrollers back in the days was pretty expensive. I think the closest many of us have gotten to at the time was programming home computers in assembly. Possibly wiring some custom stuff to the expansion ports when we could find out enough info. That's what I've done at the time. The first real MCU I used was a PIC16F84. It was cheap enough and one could make a cheap programmer for it out of a few basic parts.

These days it's all very cheap. But whether it's impacting electronics as a hobby, in terms of the number of people practising it, I don't know. Probably so, because it's so much more accessible. But as I said, there are other factors as well making people lose interest, so overall, I don't know. But one thing for sure is that hobbyists have much more visibility too, mostly due to social networks and in particular, Youtube.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is Arduino killing the electronic hobby?
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2021, 07:54:03 pm »
The thing I remember most from my electronics hobby in the 80s-90s was how much harder it was to find parts. There wasn't much nearby besides Radio Shack and they almost never had all the parts I needed to build anything. I think DigiKey was around, but I didn't know about it and would have had to get my parents to call them up and order stuff.
 


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