Is it difficult to buy a car in Australia?

[razberik]

I have watched this:

and other videos from this man.

I am not sure if I understand him. Is it really difficult to buy a new car in Australia? He calls cardealer "your enemy". What is the problem with walking away from that specific dealer to another dealer?
Methods he describes are applicable to buying pretty much anything. If I am not happy with some seller I go to another.

Also, he criticizes pretty much every car brand from around the world. The only makers he is OK is perhaps KIA, Hyundai and Mazda. Absolutely everything other is a crap.

[Brumby]

I am not sure if I understand him. Is it really difficult to buy a new car in Australia? He calls cardealer "your enemy". What is the problem with walking away from that specific dealer to another dealer?
Methods he describes are applicable to buying pretty much anything. If I am not happy with some seller I go to another.

Your observations about what he is saying are correct.  Where these may seem to be puzzling will come from a difference in culture, personality and/or knowledge - IMHO.

If you come from a background where haggling is common, you are already ahead on several of his points.  If you are wary or cynical about what a salesman says - and about what you tell them, then you are less likely to give up information that they will use to their advantage as well as not blindly accepting everything they say.  Add to that having specific knowledge - such as that which John Cadogan shares with you or points you to - and you will be at less of a disadvantage in negotiations.

Unfortunately, many car buyers in Australia can be classified as sheep and even the ones with a bit more self assertiveness may not know all the angles.  This is the sort of person John Cadogan is addressing.


The only aspect of which I have no knowledge about for dealerships outside Australia is the monthly sales target.  Within Australia I can attest to the reality of it - and the power you can wield, not only for new car sales, but also used.

I inadvertently discovered this when I had to get a new vehicle with more seating due to family growth.  I'd let this task slide for too long and when I finally got my act together, I had a month and a bit to get the job done.  I started off assessing the vehicles that would satisfy the basic requirements and then eliminated all but one.  I had the cash on hand for a decent second hand vehicle and had no interest in splashing out big bucks for a new one  I then had 4 weekends in a rather wet April to locate and secure the best example that I could find and afford.

Checking out vehicles in various car yards introduced me to the usual bullshit - but one thing I noticed was the value of my trade-in.  Across all the car yards, the average increased each subsequent weekend.  By the last weekend, the trade-in amount had doubled from the beginning of the month.  I closed a deal on that last weekend.

A few months later I was talking to someone in the car trade and mentioned that I had worked out how to get the best deal on a car - turn up ready to sign on the last weekend of a wet month.  He looked like he wanted to take my head off.  That quota pressure is very real here in Oz.

[Bassman59]

I am not sure if I understand him. Is it really difficult to buy a new car in Australia? He calls cardealer "your enemy". What is the problem with walking away from that specific dealer to another dealer?

I don't know about Australia, but here in the U.S., the car dealer is absolutely your enemy.

And it's not like you can just go to another dealer -- with territory agreements, there might not be another dealer of that brand within a reasonable distance.

In most States, there are laws against a car manufacturer selling directly to consumers. To buy a car, you must go through a franchised dealer. One might think that there is some value-add to that, in the sense that the salesperson knows everything about the products, but that's not true. The last two new cars I bought, I came in with information about the car I wanted, and then I asked the salesguy pointed questions about the cars, and in every case, he opened a web browser on his computer and looked it up on the manufacturer's web site.

And do you know why these laws exist? Because dealership owners are rich, because they don't own just one, they own many dealerships across all brands, and these guys fund political campaigns. Here in southern Arizona is a car dealer named Jim Click, who presents this "aw shucks" folksy image, but he is literally the largest funder of Republican political campaigns in the state. And he is why Tesla doesn't have any dealerships in the state, because Tesla refuses to play the franchise game and even though polls of citizens say that Tesla and other manufacturers should be able to sell direct, they can't.

Plus their service departments are complete rip-offs. (The techs are usually quite competent, but it's the service department managers  who set the policies, and they're all about making money.)

Car dealers are absolute scumbags. I can't wait until I'm able to go to the local Costco and order a new car and bypass the entire ripoff process.

[nctnico]

I'm not a fan of car sales people either. I very much prefer to buy a car directly from someone else. When I go look for a car my price is fixed. If I don't get it for the price I want I won't buy it and wait for another good deal to come up.

@Bassman59: but how about non-branded car sellers and garages? Or don't they exist?

[Rerouter]

In every case the car dealer is your enemy in negotiations, they want to sell for the highest price, you want to buy for the lowest.

I do fittings for bus and truck dealers, It is ridiculous how often they will let the batteries go dead-dead flat on a brand new vehicle, only to jump start it on the day of the sale and say things like "Yeah it might not start once you stop it" during delivery, And only putting enough fuel in the tanks for the customer to be able to drive to the nearest servo, e.g. 5L

Even buying my first car, I paid a fair price for it, but all the tires where nearly thread-less, because while I was inside arranging payment they swapped them because they wanted to flog them, I went back to them over that BS, but not everyone would eye the tires before driving out.

I've also recently discovered they did some really shitty panel beating on it as rust spots are now starting to appear under the paint,


TLDR: Its easy to buy a car, its hard to get a fairly priced one without shenanigans.

[Halcyon]

I am not sure if I understand him. Is it really difficult to buy a new car in Australia? He calls cardealer "your enemy". What is the problem with walking away from that specific dealer to another dealer?
Methods he describes are applicable to buying pretty much anything. If I am not happy with some seller I go to another.

Also, he criticizes pretty much every car brand from around the world. The only makers he is OK is perhaps KIA, Hyundai and Mazda. Absolutely everything other is a crap.

John Cadogan is a very knowledgeable and well respected journalist. He has "no bullshit" way of presenting and while his videos are far from politically correct, who cares? The content is absolutely spot on.

Buying a car in Australia isn't difficult at all. What John is referring to are the typical high-pressure sales tactics car dealerships use, not only in Australia but all over the world. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from walking away from a car dealer or in most cases you can cancel the sales contract during the cooling-off period (however it will cost you a small amount).

Negotiating the price of a new or used car is almost expected, even recommended. If you aren't happy with the price, you can always give them your best offer and see if they will meet it. There is always "wiggle room" built into the ticket price of a car, they just won't tell you (honestly) how much buffer there is.

A car salesman isn't your friend, he is looking to make a sale at the best possible price. If buying a used car, they will down-play or omit any problems the car might have, it's up to you to discover them yourself or have the vehicle inspected by someone who is qualified. Some laws do also apply, for example, a car dealership can't just sell you a defective death-trap of a car, if you want a piece of crap that isn't roadworthy, you go to a wreckers or someone dodgy.

As for criticising almost every car brand; he does so because he doesn't favour one brand or another. If a car maker turns out a crap model (and they all have) then he'll take them to task over it.

Enjoy his videos, I do. He is a great source of knowledge.

EDIT: I just read Bassman59's comments about territories. They don't exist in Australia. You can go to any dealer in Australia and buy a car as long as you have it registered and it passes roadworthy requirements in the state you live in.

[aargee]

Yes, the dealer is the enemy. As much as they pretend to look after you in sales and service, it really is about the bottom line.
In most businesses you hope there is a balance in providing service, care and profit, as Brumby states, here in Aus it's all about the money.
I personally dread the whole car buying process, it's akin to going into battle.
No clue sales people who often tell blatant lies, which may be due to ignorance but that's no excuse. Having the skills of an engineer in research and technical detail will beat sales hands-down every time and even with service managers.
Service departments charging triple the cost of oils, etc. even down to trying on an $18 charge for a remote battery *every* time you bring the car in for a service.

When I buy a car now a figure out my five year strategy, if I'm prepared to spend on their service and sales as a whole package, I also get a quote from them for the service costs for the next 'x' years on paper.

I have watched a bit of John Cadogan's work on you tube, some of it's good stuff but he looks at his car as a 'get me from A to B and that's it' hence the most bang for buck push of vehicle brands such as Kia and Hyundai, some of us like some longevity and style (even if it's a personal choice) in a car.

I know Hyundai have improved, but many years ago I had to drive from Cairns to Townsville in a Hyundai buzz box (small car) rental. Topping out at around 90 km/h and the interior fittings were clearly cardboard (as opposed to the well disguised cardboard used now days  ), every time a semi-trailer went past, all the air vents would slam shut and the glove box would fall open. That sort of sticks with you.

But yes, it really is like the video.

[razberik]

What  The entire process with negotiating price is totally strange to me.
In place where I live, the cars have their prices on stickers like anything else - milk or bread in grocery or washing machine in electronics store.
I can open car brand website, configure the vehicle with desired options, print this configuration with calculated price and bring it to the dealer - I receive it and the price is final.

But hey, perhaps I am not the right person for this topic since I never bought a new car nor I am willing to buy in far future.

Different situation is used car dealers - they are 99% idiots and crooks and I would never buy a car there. The prices (they are on stickers) are usually like +20% compared to cars sold by individuals.
There might be involved some process similar to that described in John Cadogans videos, but used car dealers here are for people who are absolutely clueless about cars.

But the price negotiating process in new car dealers shocks me.

[VK5RC]

Cadogan's 'job' is 'selling' youtube videos plus his car retailing side business. He is a car seller so he is also 'your enemy'. His over the top style makes entertaining and funny watching. Most of what he says is true, but he has a strong 'bang for buck' philosophy. Kia/Hyundai feature alot - perhaps his sales margin is good there (cynical hat on).
In Aus (arse-stralia) in Cadoganese, the recommended retail price is the starting point, recently I got 8k off the recommended retail price with just a bit of haggling.

[georges80]

Didn't see anything in that video that isn't obvious. I've bought new vehicles in Oz and also here in the US, it's essentially the same recipe. So called sticker price/MSRP is already a very marked up and inflated price. Then add in other bs charges like rust proofing, dealer delivery etc.

Maybe the purchasing process is 'new' to a young person that has never bought a car before or never had the insight on how to negotiate passed down from his parents.

Consider that if the salesman gets you to pay $500 more and he's taken 2 hours to do it, he has made $250 per hour... Haggle down for every dollar you don't want to have to work to earn. And yes, manufacturer paying a bonus to a dealer for shifting volume off the lot is real, so even getting a vehicle for 'dealer cost' likely means the dealer has still made some profit.

cheers,
george.

[Halcyon]

Cadogan's 'job' is 'selling' youtube videos plus his car retailing side business. He is a car seller so he is also 'your enemy'.

I'm not sure if it was an attempt at a joke (context doesn't always translate well over text) but just to be clear, John Cadogan isn't a car salesman, he's a journalist. He makes the same money off his services regardless if you buy a BMW or Volvo, or choose to opt for a Ford Mustang death-trap, a Subaru shitbox or a Mercedes Benz with defective AWD.

He is very much bang-for-buck but that doesn't cloud his judgement if something is faulty, dangerous, defective or under-engineered, you can't polish a turd (so to speak). The majority of his target audience are wanting a decent car which ticks a lot of boxes for the lowest possible price. They generally aren't the people buying high-end, luxury vehicles.

Many of his videos are what I would call basic "common knowledge" when it comes to vehicle servicing and repairs, such as, how to tighten wheel nuts or how not to mistreat your AWD system. So many people just don't understand the basics.

[sokoloff]

What  The entire process with negotiating price is totally strange to me.
In place where I live, the cars have their prices on stickers like anything else - milk or bread in grocery or washing machine in electronics store.
I can open car brand website, configure the vehicle with desired options, print this configuration with calculated price and bring it to the dealer - I receive it and the price is final.

Well, there are window stickers and prices here, too, but I’ve never paid anywhere close to the sticker price on the two new cars I’ve bought in my life. So, if you want to make it easy and don’t care how much you pay, you can surely buy a car like it just has a price and you pay that or don’t get the car. You’ll also likely pay thousands more than I would for the same end result.

[Brumby]

What  The entire process with negotiating price is totally strange to me.
In place where I live, the cars have their prices on stickers like anything else - milk or bread in grocery or washing machine in electronics store.
I can open car brand website, configure the vehicle with desired options, print this configuration with calculated price and bring it to the dealer - I receive it and the price is final.

Well, there are window stickers and prices here, too, but I’ve never paid anywhere close to the sticker price on the two new cars I’ve bought in my life. So, if you want to make it easy and don’t care how much you pay, you can surely buy a car like it just has a price and you pay that or don’t get the car. You’ll also likely pay thousands more than I would for the same end result.

This is where cultural differences can play a part.  If you come from an environment where haggling is an alien concept, then trying to do so will be rather offensive.  Alternatively, if you come from an environment where it is expected - and you don't - then the vendor may feel guilty and give you something extra.  (I saw this in a video I watched last night).  In Australia, it's not all that common in formal retail settings - but for big ticket items, it is not unexpected.

When criticising people on taking or not taking certain approaches in various situations, we must be careful to consider such differences.

[Halcyon]

This is where cultural differences can play a part.  If you come from an environment where haggling is an alien concept, then trying to do so will be rather offensive.  Alternatively, if you come from an environment where it is expected - and you don't - then the vendor may feel guilty and give you something extra.  (I saw this in a video I watched last night).  In Australia, it's not all that common in formal retail settings - but for big ticket items, it is not unexpected.

When criticising people on taking or not taking certain approaches in various situations, we must be careful to consider such differences.

Absolutely. For example "tipping" in Australia isn't all that common (or expected). The most common place to tip someone is at a restaurant, but by that stage, you're probably well "lubricated" and don't mind anyway.

I've never tipped anyone at a hotel or similar, nor have I felt the need to.

[sokoloff]

What  The entire process with negotiating price is totally strange to me.
In place where I live, the cars have their prices on stickers like anything else - milk or bread in grocery or washing machine in electronics store.
I can open car brand website, configure the vehicle with desired options, print this configuration with calculated price and bring it to the dealer - I receive it and the price is final.

Well, there are window stickers and prices here, too, but I’ve never paid anywhere close to the sticker price on the two new cars I’ve bought in my life. So, if you want to make it easy and don’t care how much you pay, you can surely buy a car like it just has a price and you pay that or don’t get the car. You’ll also likely pay thousands more than I would for the same end result.

This is where cultural differences can play a part.  If you come from an environment where haggling is an alien concept, then trying to do so will be rather offensive.  Alternatively, if you come from an environment where it is expected - and you don't - then the vendor may feel guilty and give you something extra.  (I saw this in a video I watched last night).  In Australia, it's not all that common in formal retail settings - but for big ticket items, it is not unexpected.

When criticising people on taking or not taking certain approaches in various situations, we must be careful to consider such differences.

I don't believe I levied criticism in the text above.

[james_s]

Makes me glad I've always bought used cars from private sellers. Show up, take it for a spin, poke around, if I like I negotiate a price, hand over a wad of cash and drive away. I'd rather have an older car and spend some time tinkering and fixing it up any day over paying a huge depreciation hit.

[Cthulhoid]

In most States, there are laws against a car manufacturer selling directly to consumers. To buy a car, you must go through a franchised dealer. One might think that there is some value-add to that, in the sense that the salesperson knows everything about the products, but that's not true.

If there were any benefit to using a third-party dealer rather than buying from the manufacturer, the government wouldn't be sending men with guns to stop manufacturers from selling direct.

[Brumby]

What  The entire process with negotiating price is totally strange to me.
In place where I live, the cars have their prices on stickers like anything else - milk or bread in grocery or washing machine in electronics store.
I can open car brand website, configure the vehicle with desired options, print this configuration with calculated price and bring it to the dealer - I receive it and the price is final.

Well, there are window stickers and prices here, too, but I’ve never paid anywhere close to the sticker price on the two new cars I’ve bought in my life. So, if you want to make it easy and don’t care how much you pay, you can surely buy a car like it just has a price and you pay that or don’t get the car. You’ll also likely pay thousands more than I would for the same end result.

This is where cultural differences can play a part.  If you come from an environment where haggling is an alien concept, then trying to do so will be rather offensive.  Alternatively, if you come from an environment where it is expected - and you don't - then the vendor may feel guilty and give you something extra.  (I saw this in a video I watched last night).  In Australia, it's not all that common in formal retail settings - but for big ticket items, it is not unexpected.

When criticising people on taking or not taking certain approaches in various situations, we must be careful to consider such differences.

I don't believe I levied criticism in the text above.

I didn't mean to infer a negative attitude.

Perhaps I should have said:  "When commenting on people taking or not taking certain approaches in various situations, we must be careful to consider such differences."

[Rick Law]

...
Different situation is used car dealers - they are 99% idiots and crooks and I would never buy a car there. The prices (they are on stickers) are usually like +20% compared to cars sold by individuals.
There might be involved some process similar to that described in John Cadogans videos, but used car dealers here are for people who are absolutely clueless about cars.

But the price negotiating process in new car dealers shocks me.

re: used car buying from individual vs dealer...

One issue with used car here in the USA is the Title.  This is the legal paper issued by the State that you own the vehicle and Title is required to register the vehicle.  In the USA, car registration is handled by the States and each has its own laws.  If one search the web, there are plenty of examples of used car purchaser having trouble registering the vehicle after buying the car - because of issues with the Title.  Most are innocent things, but some are less innocent.  Worst case scenario is when the buyer and seller are in different States there-by two different sets of rules.

Title-issues could be because of prior owner with a marriage-name-change, lien not properly cleared, typos, signed at the wrong spot...  Imagine trying to call the seller for her marriage certificate and proof of change-of-name.  (One can do a formal/legal name change in the USA, but one doesn't have to...)  Worst case is of course a stolen car with a fake title.  Stolen car can even get a "real" Title by various known tricks that you can find on the web - Department of Motor Vehicle guys are not known to walk out to the parking lot to carefully check the vehicle's VIN against the paper work.

In the USA, it is common for individual sellers to park the car at a high-traffic area with a FOR-SALE sign and a phone number. A shopping mall by a major road is a typical spot.  It therefore seemed natural to meet the seller there instead of meeting the seller at his/her home.  Even if you first discover a car in the eBay listing, it would not be suspicious when the seller say "my car is typically parked at XYZ mall, why don't we meet there."

The risk of title-issues is less when purchased from a dealer instead of an individual.  At least, when an issue popped up with the paper work, there is a business there for the buyer to go back to and follow up.  When purchased from an individual, if you need to look for the seller, you could find "no one live here by that name" and the phone number...well, it was a pre-paid phone disposed after the sale.  Of course it would be pointless to go back to the damn mall where you first saw the car, spoke to the seller who seemed so nice...

[Brumby]

In NSW at least, there is no formal "title" to a vehicle, unless you have an original receipt for the sale of the vehicle (which is not common for second-hand vehicles).  The registration papers are used as a defacto - but they technically do not represent any title of ownership - just the right for a particular vehicle to travel on public roads.  The name & address on the rego papers is simply somewhere to send any correspondence.

[rjp]

The registration papers need a transfer of ownership with signed documents from the previous owner if it changes, so it pretty much is a title.

As for the topic, Australia is expensive, everything is expensive, you get used to beating down all the costs in your life as best as you can but its mostly about being comfy middle class and not caring about things much beyond that.

Bad luck if your not on middle class money.

Car dealers are notorious for being sneaky, it is best to assume they are trying to rip you off and haggle hard.

[Brumby]

The registration papers need a transfer of ownership with signed documents from the previous owner if it changes, so it pretty much is a title.

My understanding is that this is a transfer of registration.  It is not a transfer of title - and is no guarantee of title.

Someone may have purchased a vehicle on finance and may sell you the car - but you can bet your boots the finance company will have recorded their interest on the Register of Encumbered Vehicles.  If you don't do a REVS check and you pay over the money - then find the vendor has done a runner, the finance company will come and repossess it - even if you have the registration transferred properly.

Ergo, registration is not title ... in NSW at least.

[coppice]

In NSW at least, there is no formal "title" to a vehicle...

Formal title? You mean like "The Noble M600"?

[Rerouter]

Title as in receipt of ownership, e.g. a deed to a house, Something that shows you own it no matter who pays the land tax, or the council rates,

E.g. I own the registration of my car, My mother is primary user of the car for the past 4 years, Its referred to as my car, but in a defacto sense she would be the owner,

Or 2 years ago I bought a trailer off someone from another state, And I let the registration lapse because It was for use on private land, Technically he is the last owner the government would be aware of, so If he insisted, he could probably have it reclaimed,

[coppice]

Title as in receipt of ownership, e.g. a deed to a house, Something that shows you own it no matter who pays the land tax, or the council rates,

E.g. I own the registration of my car, My mother is primary user of the car for the past 4 years, Its referred to as my car, but in a defacto sense she would be the owner,

Or 2 years ago I bought a trailer off someone from another state, And I let the registration lapse because It was for use on private land, Technically he is the last owner the government would be aware of, so If he insisted, he could probably have it reclaimed,

Is registration tied to ownership in Australia? Does that mean a leased car is registered by the lease holder, and a company provided car is registered by the company which owns it? I'm more used to a car being registered by its keeper.