Author Topic: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?  (Read 5530 times)

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Offline edyTopic starter

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Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« on: November 13, 2022, 10:49:57 pm »
I have been using these Energizer 2500 mAh NiMH batteries for several years and decided to buy a few more packs of batteries to run a portable Tecsun shortwave radio and a Sony Walkman (yes, for nostalgic purposes). I decided on a bit pricier Duracells from Amazon, same 2500 mAh rating NiMH (see photo below).

I took my new Duracells out of the pack and they barely fit into my electronics (very tight fit). Did not even charge them, they come “pre-charged” straight from the factory. I have been using them for a month, still haven’t charged them because they are not running out! I must have played over a dozen cassettes and listened to my shortwave radio for many many hours. Battery indicators show still full! I don’t understand it. Either someone is playing a trick on me, these things have improved tremendously or I had crappy Energizers before and didn’t realize it. Anyone have experience with this? I never remember my Energizers ever lasting this long from day one. The Duracells feel heavier than the Energizer but I may be imagining it (I need a scale to verify).

I’m wondering once the Duracells finally run out if I am going to get the same capacity once I charge them in my Energizer wall charger (the one seen in the photo). Is it the batteries or the charger? The charger says output 2.8VDC 360mAx2(AA) per channel (it will charge a pair together, or 2 pairs which is all 4 batteries).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 11:03:49 pm by edy »
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Offline alm

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2022, 11:10:28 pm »
If you are talking about the difference low-self-discharge (LSD) NiMH batteries make, that's a huge difference, especially in self-discharge rate, but that's not exactly about the past couple of years. Sanyo introduced the Eneloop brand of low-self-discharge NiMH battery in 2005. Though I'm sure you can still buy non-LSD NiMH batteries if you try. LSD batteries are often sold as "pre-charged". The low self discharge rate makes selling them pre-charged feasible. Older style NiMH batteries would self discharge in months.

Check the specifications of your charger. If it was properly designed for NiMH cells with -dV/dt termination, then it should be fine with LSD batteries. If it's a dumb charger that supplies a constant current for a set period of time (that's what it sounds like based on the specs), then I'd recommend a better charger if you don't want to boil the batteries.
 
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Offline rdl

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2022, 11:14:16 pm »
I think you need a better charger, one that charges each cell individually. There will be an LED indicator for each slot. A 4 cell charger that does either AA or AAA in any combination is not expensive.



I also bought a Panasonic version last year. It was about $24 with 4x AAA Eneloop batteries.

 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2022, 11:23:01 pm »
Take a look at this if you want the ultimate NiMH AA charger:
http://www.ultrasmartcharger.com/
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2022, 01:53:08 am »
Thanks for the explanation! I’d like to get another charger from Amazon but not sure what would be better than my dumb existing Energizer one. As mentioned previously it seems to just have a single output of 2.8VDC at 360mAx2 (per AA pair) and a single green light when charging which eventually turns off when it has finished. It will do 2 pairs (4 batteries) but there is only one green light so I don’t know how it is supposed to figure things out per battery, or even between pairs of batteries. I don’t think it’s based on a timer, it must sense something.

Anyways, any suggestions for anything? I really don’t need any more batteries at this time but most chargers come with more batteries (unless it’s a good deal to buy both). I also don’t want to spend a fortune, and I don’t know which chargers are actually any better or suitable for these LSD batteries.

I found this one, from Panasonic but geared towards eneloop batteries. It seems reasonable and not too expensive… will it work ok on other brands like Duracell or is there something special with eneloop that makes this charger detect them and have issues with other brands? Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated:

https://www.amazon.ca/Panasonic-BQ-CC17SBA-Advanced-Individual-Indicator/dp/B00JHKSLM8

There is also this Duracell one with a few extra batteries for only a few bucks more but I don’t know if it is as good a charger:

https://www.amazon.ca/Duracell-Battery-Charger-Speed-4000/dp/B00DTE6QSY
« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 02:50:28 am by edy »
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Offline deadlylover

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2022, 02:49:45 am »
That Panasonic will work fine with all NiMH cells, it's a little slow but it charges nicely. You can find a review here from one of our own members.

If you have an IKEA nearby, their LADDA series of batteries are excellent if they stock the Japanese ones (and cheap!). If you ever find a LSD NiMH cell made in Japan then you know it comes from the same factory as the original eneloops. (there is only one NiMH factory in Japan, the FDK factory)

IIRC some of the Amazon Basics cells were made in Japan but it can be region dependant. Might be worth putting it on a watch list and wait for a sale.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2022, 02:51:23 am »
The Panasonic chargers are a bit picky on internal resistance and generally do not work with lower quality cells. However, most low self discharge NiMH are basically remarked Eneloops and should work fine.
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2022, 03:10:21 am »
https://www.amazon.ca/Panasonic-BQ-CC17SBA-Advanced-Individual-Indicator/dp/B00JHKSLM8

I have the BQ-CC17 and it appears to work well but is slow, only does AA/AAA cells and doesn't give any information like capacity, etc.

I also have this one: https://www.amazon.com/IQ-338XL-Universal-Charger-Analyzer-Charges/dp/B01MQWDIW9

It does AAA/AA/C/D NiMH and 18650 Li-Ion cells, has selectable charge rates and gives readings for internal resistance, voltage, total charge capacity and so on.  It also has a discharge/charge cycle function.  I highly recommend it although I don't think I paid quite that much for it.  It also does 9V NiMH, but only in the dumb trickle mode, which actually makes sense because of the 6 cells in series.



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Offline AG6QR

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2022, 04:04:21 am »
Anyways, any suggestions for anything? I really don’t need any more batteries at this time but most chargers come with more batteries (unless it’s a good deal to buy both). I also don’t want to spend a fortune, and I don’t know which chargers are actually any better or suitable for these LSD batteries.

I found this one, from Panasonic but geared towards eneloop batteries. It seems reasonable and not too expensive… will it work ok on other brands like Duracell or is there something special with eneloop that makes this charger detect them and have issues with other brands? Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated:

https://www.amazon.ca/Panasonic-BQ-CC17SBA-Advanced-Individual-Indicator/dp/B00JHKSLM8
That looks fine.  It charges each cell individually, and it's rather inexpensive.  There's nothing special about eneloop charge requirements vs other brands.  One feature it lacks is a variable charge rate.  It looks like it's fixed at 0.3A for AAs, or 0.15A for AAAs.


Quote
There is also this Duracell one with a few extra batteries for only a few bucks more but I don’t know if it is as good a charger:

https://www.amazon.ca/Duracell-Battery-Charger-Speed-4000/dp/B00DTE6QSY

That appears to be set up to charge cells in pairs, instead of individually.  If ALL of your devices use cells in pairs, that can work okay.  But since I have some devices that use three cells, and others that use one cell, I strongly prefer a charger that charges cells individually, and shuts off the charging of each cell when that particular cell is full.

For about a decade, I've been using the MAHA MH-C401FS charger.  I've got three of them stashed in various places.  One thing I like about it is that it can run directly off an automotive 12V system with no voltage converter, and it comes with an automotive power cord.  Of course it also comes with an adapter to run off of mains AC.  It has two charge rates: a gentle .3A rate which takes about 5 hours, and a faster 1.0A rate which takes around 100 minutes.  And yes, it charges each cell individually, can charge 1, 2, 3, or 4 cells at a time, and they may be any combination of AA or AAA sized.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2022, 04:45:36 am »
If you have an IKEA nearby, their LADDA series of batteries are excellent .
In Canada IKEA discontinued LADDA batteries. Too bad, they were cheap and good. I liked them.
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Offline Zoli

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2022, 05:17:30 am »
If you have an IKEA nearby, their LADDA series of batteries are excellent .
In Canada IKEA discontinued LADDA batteries. Too bad, they were cheap and good. I liked them.
Hmmm:
https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/search/products/?q=ladda
Last weekend(Nov 5) Ikea Coquitlam was pretty full of them; sometimes they're sold out, even for weeks in a row.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2022, 07:57:15 am »
It wouldn't surprise me if all these little 4 cell AA/AAA "smart" chargers were made in the same factory and basically the same inside. The Panasonic is the one I bought last year except I caught it on sale for about $24 with 4x AAA Eneloop batteries. It works fine. The Duracell charges in pairs which makes me suspicious about how it actually works. You really want a "smart" charger that does each cell individually.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2022, 08:10:37 am »
NiMH cells became dramatically better around 15 years ago, I don't think they have changed much since then though. I've been using a LaCrosse BC-700 charger for mine, it works really well.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2022, 09:07:50 am »
The battery indicators are usually made with alkaline cells in mind. So they have a threshold of some 1.1-1.3 V.  NiMH and NiCd have a rather stable output voltage of some 1.2 - 1.25 V and the voltage is not a good indicator for the residual capacity. A rechargable battery may show as good till 1% charge left or may show as empty when still 95% full, depending on where they set the limit. So a down-side of using rechargible cells is that the battery indicator gets pretty useless.

NiMH are more tricky to charge than the old NiCd and a poor charger can reduce the charge cycles a lot.  A charger from a battery company that comes with cells at least gives hot they would not sell a poor charger as this would also effect the cells reputation.
 

Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2022, 12:01:18 pm »
Is there any concern with a fast versus slow charger? For example Panasonic has these almost similarly priced chargers that come with 4 AAA, a slow 6 hour and a fast 3 hour charger as well:

Slow with batteries:

https://www.amazon.ca/Panasonic-K-KJ17M3A4BA-Battery-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B010U57MSW

Fast with batteries:

https://www.amazon.ca/Panasonic-Advanced-Individual-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B01N2GHFWD

I also see this brand EBL which is much cheaper. Comes with batteries and also individual cell charger. Any thoughts on it’s reputation as the specs seem almost too good:

https://www.amazon.ca/EBL-Slot-Battery-Charger-Screen/dp/B08BQYGWHJ
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Offline steve30

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2022, 01:04:58 pm »
Personally, I'd say NiMH cells are a lot better than they used to be. Especially the LSD ones.
 

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2022, 01:08:48 pm »
I seem to recall the pet theory with LSD NiMH was it was just older technology, the problem with NiMH was pushing up to say 2850mAh (which I believe Duracell marketed at one point) was making the leakage current on the order of a few mA, enough to discharge the cell within a month or two.  Going back down to 2400mAh alleviated a lot of these issues.  Has this been disproven?
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2022, 01:13:11 pm »
If you have an IKEA nearby, their LADDA series of batteries are excellent .
In Canada IKEA discontinued LADDA batteries. Too bad, they were cheap and good. I liked them.
Hmmm:
https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/search/products/?q=ladda
Last weekend(Nov 5) Ikea Coquitlam was pretty full of them; sometimes they're sold out, even for weeks in a row.
Those are rechargeables. I was talking about regular non-rechargeable batteries, in yellow jacket.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 01:17:46 pm by Bud »
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Online wraper

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2022, 01:30:25 pm »
Currently low self-discharge NiMH are very common. If labeled as pre-charged, you can be sure they are LSD cells. Older NiMH went from fully charged to flat in a month if simply left alone.
Quote
I took my new Duracells out of the pack and they barely fit into my electronics (very tight fit).
Stumbled on the issue recently when bought 10 wireless wall thermostats. Alkalines fit fine and are easy to remove. Usual eneloops fit tight and not easy to remove, high capacity ones and high capacity amazon basics fit super tight and are very hard to remove. Found ANSI standard, measured battery dimensions. Conclusion is that device manufacturers do not adhere to the standard which says AA must be between 13.5mm and 14.5mm in diameter, and devices must be designed to accept that. Alkalines I measured were mostly about 13.8-13.9mm. Thickest NiMH 14.2-14.3mm.
 

Offline alm

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2022, 01:37:24 pm »
I seem to recall the pet theory with LSD NiMH was it was just older technology, the problem with NiMH was pushing up to say 2850mAh (which I believe Duracell marketed at one point) was making the leakage current on the order of a few mA, enough to discharge the cell within a month or two.  Going back down to 2400mAh alleviated a lot of these issues.  Has this been disproven?
When Sanyo Eneloop was introduced in 2005, they compared the self discharge rate of the 2000 mAh (typical) Eneloop to 2500 mAh (typical) regular NiMH batteries, where the Eneloop had 85% capacity left after one year, and the regular NiMH battery was basically flat. Now Panasonic (who bought the Eneloop brand from Sanyo in 2013) sells Eneloop pro batteries with 2500 mAh typical capacities that have 85% capacity left after one year. So your claim is that the 2500 mAh (typ) Eneloop pro batteries are the same as the 2500 mAh (typ) non-LSD batteries Sanyo produced in 2005?

Those are rechargeables. I was talking about regular non-rechargeable batteries, in yellow jacket.
I thought this topic was about rechargeable batteries?

Offline Zoli

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2022, 02:29:46 pm »
If you have an IKEA nearby, their LADDA series of batteries are excellent .
In Canada IKEA discontinued LADDA batteries. Too bad, they were cheap and good. I liked them.
Hmmm:
https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/search/products/?q=ladda
Last weekend(Nov 5) Ikea Coquitlam was pretty full of them; sometimes they're sold out, even for weeks in a row.
Those are rechargeables. I was talking about regular non-rechargeable batteries, in yellow jacket.
The alkalines were called ALKALISK, not LADDA.
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2022, 04:12:11 pm »
When Sanyo Eneloop was introduced in 2005, they compared the self discharge rate of the 2000 mAh (typical) Eneloop to 2500 mAh (typical) regular NiMH batteries, where the Eneloop had 85% capacity left after one year, and the regular NiMH battery was basically flat. Now Panasonic (who bought the Eneloop brand from Sanyo in 2013) sells Eneloop pro batteries with 2500 mAh typical capacities that have 85% capacity left after one year. So your claim is that the 2500 mAh (typ) Eneloop pro batteries are the same as the 2500 mAh (typ) non-LSD batteries Sanyo produced in 2005?

It's not my claim, just something I've seen speculated about on the Internet.  It does line up with LSD NiMH batteries being notably lower capacity than NiMH has technically been able to achieve. 
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2022, 04:21:35 pm »
It's not my claim, just something I've seen speculated about on the Internet.  It does line up with LSD NiMH batteries being notably lower capacity than NiMH has technically been able to achieve.

AFAIK, the LSD feature is largely due to a thicker and otherwise improved separator.  I suppose if the ultra-high capacity versions used thinner separators to leave more space to increase capacity, they might suffer increased self-discharge, so 'going back' would improve this a bit.  However, modern LSD NiMH are much, much better than older NiMH, even the ones that had much less capacity.  I'm pretty sure present-day LSD represents a significant improvement over any previous NiMH cells, at least at the consumer level in standard cell configurations.
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Offline jmelson

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2022, 04:26:51 pm »
Take the new cells and old, and compare weight.  My kids bought me some hardware store Energizer NiMh D cells, and I could tell immediately by their weight that they must have had about an AA cell worth of real cell inside.  When new, they would run my flashlight for about 30 minutes.  Now, that's down to 10 minutes, and I just got some new ones off eBay that weight tells me they at least have (something) inside.  I will have to use them to see how much longer they last.
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« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 04:31:49 pm by jmelson »
 

Offline alm

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2022, 05:09:29 pm »
It's not my claim, just something I've seen speculated about on the Internet.  It does line up with LSD NiMH batteries being notably lower capacity than NiMH has technically been able to achieve.
I've seen a lot of speculation on the internet... It does not line up not with the fact that LSD batteries have increased in capacities to match NiMH batteries from 15 years ago, but have a much lower self discharge than said batteries from 15 years ago. Both LSD and non-LSD batteries have increased in capacity, yet the difference in self discharge rate has stayed the same. That is more consistent with LSD batteries using a different construction that limits capacity. The Eneloop press release mentions some improvements like a different alloy for the negative electrode.

Can you find data showing the self-discharge rate of <=2000 mAh NiMH batteries before the introduction of Eneloop having a similarly low self-discharge rate as the 2000 mAh (typ) Eneloop batteries?


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