Author Topic: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?  (Read 5524 times)

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Offline IanB

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2022, 05:19:36 pm »
Can you find data showing the self-discharge rate of <=2000 mAh NiMH batteries before the introduction of Eneloop having a similarly low self-discharge rate as the 2000 mAh (typ) Eneloop batteries?

I bought a few old generation NiMH cells of 2000 mAh capacity, of varying brands. They all had terrible self-discharge and would be down to zero after a month or so of storage.

When tested side by side with the newly introduced Eneloops, the Eneloops not only held their charge for years, but also had a higher discharge voltage and could sustain higher load currents. Eneloops were vastly better in all respects.
 

Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2022, 10:11:36 pm »
Thanks for all the great info everyone!!! I never thought this much development was going on with regular consumer rechargeable batteries. So I was not imagining things… I didn’t have a leprechaun playing around with my Duracells at night.   :-DD

Remember I hadn’t bought any rechargeables for years, everything these days seems to come with their own built-in batteries or special packs that are proprietary configurations, or some Li-Ion pack. Little did I know how much better new NiMH are compared to my old ones to power my everyday AA/AAA battery devices!

Back to the charger question, does anyone have any experience with “EBL” brand stuff? I saw this on Amazon as I want to get something that won’t kill my new Duracells and the specs sound really good for under $30 Canadian (charger and 4x AA and 4x AAA):


- 4 Slot Independent charger: can charge 1/2/3/4 AA/AAA Ni-MH Ni-CD rechargeable batteries. It can charge the number of AA AAA batteries randomly you needed, you don’t need to charge batteries in pair anymore.

- Smart LCD display: With LCD screen to show the charging process, battery status can be easily monitored.

- High capacity rechargeable batteries - 2800mAh AA battery & 1100mAh AAA battery, has long lasting and superior performance. EBL 1.2V Ni-MH AA AAA rechargeable battery can be recharged up to 1200 times.

- Low self-discharge - Batteries will remain 90% juice when you leaving it for no use 1 year.

- Package: 1 x FY-409 Battery Charger, 1 x 4 pack AAA 1100mAh rechargeable batteries, 1 x 4 pack AA 2800mAh rechargeable batteries, 1 x User Manual, 1 x Micro USB Cable.


https://www.amazon.ca/EBL-Slot-Battery-Charger-Screen/dp/B08BQYGWHJ


First, I don’t believe the mAh rating on any of those batteries. I don’t really need any more batteries, I just want a decent charger. It says will retain 90% “juice”  :-DD after 1 year so I assume they are LSD type and the charger that comes with it will not kill them or my Duracells. The Panasonic smart charger alone is about $20 so for only a bit more I can get a bunch more batteries, assuming this EBL brand charger is any good. The only drawback is it uses USB inputs so I’ll need a wall-wart adapter from some other device to plug into the wall. My other chargers would just plug into 120V mains.



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Online bdunham7

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2022, 10:30:42 pm »
Back to the charger question, does anyone have any experience with “EBL” brand stuff?

Not with that model, but I have an EBL 906 (large per-cell smart charger with basic screen) that isn't very good--it seems to occasionally overcharge/overheat cells and so on.  I used it before I got the other two I mentioned and I wasn't as happy with NiMH batteries then.  To be sure, some of the batteries themselves weren't good, but since I got the 338XL even most of my Tenergy cells have been behaving.  And for those that don't, the 338XL calls them out if you know how to use it. 

OTOH, I have the EBL 9V Li-ion replacements and their specific EBL charger and they have all been great.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2022, 03:34:28 am »
Take the new cells and old, and compare weight.  My kids bought me some hardware store Energizer NiMh D cells, and I could tell immediately by their weight that they must have had about an AA cell worth of real cell inside.  When new, they would run my flashlight for about 30 minutes.  Now, that's down to 10 minutes, and I just got some new ones off eBay that weight tells me they at least have (something) inside.  I will have to use them to see how much longer they last.
Jon

AA are by far the most common, and most C and D NiMH cells are actually just AA or occasionally sub-C. True C and D NiMH are much more expensive and harder to find.
 

Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2022, 03:52:47 am »
If you look carefully at the photos the Duracell batteries say charge at 250mA for 16 hours. My energizer charger is 300mA output so it would be slowly charging these batteries… maybe 13-14 hours because of the slightly higher mA. I don’t know what the Energizer charger does to figure out when to shut off or if it actually just continues charging while the green light simply shows some parameter it’s reading off the pair of batteries. As well, will eneloop charger from Panasonic work on these Duracells or will it have problems?

It’s quite strange that Duracell doesn’t really make too many chargers… it has a value charger and a premium charger. The value charger says 8 hours and the value charger comes with 1300 mAh AA’s which get charged in pairs, which makes me think it’s just a dumb charger probably output 250-300mA which would make a 2500mAh battery need about twice as long to fully charge (hence why my battery says 250mA for 16h)? Or because they are paired they are in series and act as if they are a 2x1300mAh battery, meaning that an individual-cell charger would also do 8h charge if individual slots also received 300mA?

Their premium charger (Ion Speed 4000) is 1-2.5h and it also comes with 1300mAh AA batteries and 750mAh AAA’s. I don’t have any specs on it but it claims 4000 mW of charging power. Assuming a pair of batteries takes 2.8V input and 4000 mW is for both pairs, one pair would be 2000 mW which would mean probably around 700-750mA charging current. Am I doing the math ok?

The Panasonic 6h charger for 750mA eneloop AAA’s outputs 1.5V at 150mA and will go to 300mA for AA’s (which it claims 7h to charge 2000 mAh AA batteries). So the Panasonic is using same current (300mA) and same charge time (7-8h) to charge a 2000 mAh eneloop while Duracells is charging a 1300 mAh battery in pairs for about same time, because the Duracell is charging in pairs?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 03:58:24 am by edy »
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2022, 04:46:46 am »
True C and D NiMH are much more expensive and harder to find.

These are the ones to get and they aren't terribly expensive given what they are:

https://power.tenergy.com/16pcs-tenergy-centura-nimh-d-1-2v-8000mah-rechargeable-battery/

They have a 'Premium' high-self discharge 10Ah version and a 3Ah 'Centura Lite' version, neither of which seems worthwhile.   I've been using the regular (heavy) Centura model for a while now and they really do hold up. 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2022, 11:14:27 am »
Quote
and most C and D NiMH cells are actually just AA or occasionally sub-C

I don't  use many of that kind, so instead I use an adapter that takes AA and just holds them in the right place. They last long enough, and being able to replace with common stock is better than keeping C or D spares.

Random find: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08CKVQRVH
 

Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2022, 02:15:23 pm »
I see this one looks good but is a bit on the pricey side:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00SNWMQ40

It looks like the one shown here in this bigclive video, which seems to critique smart chargers but I’m not sure what his final conclusion is except you need to sometimes revitalize batteries that drop voltage too low or reverse and that smart chargers don’t always help inform the user. Anyways, bigclive seems to be using that Tenergy charger I linked above:



I’m looking at something that will do slow charging, I don’t care about speed as I have enough batteries to swap. I just want to make sure it doesn’t kill the batteries. These Duracells mention absolutely nothing about whether they are LSD or similar to eneloops, maybe they make them or maybe they just rebadge them from another supplier and not allowed to use certain trademarked terms? They are obviously low self discharge as they come pre-charged and so far have far outlasted anything I’ve ever used before. I fully expect to need to spend a good 16 hours charging them slowest safest method possible like it says on the package (250mA for 16h). But the Panasonic eneloop charger which comes with 4 AAA at 6h charge time doesn’t tell me anything about how many mA it uses to charge.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2022, 03:22:16 pm »
Quote
These Duracells mention absolutely nothing about whether they are LSD or similar to eneloops

Until they state 'low self-leakage' it probably doesn't matter - you'll be binning them before they discharge.
 

Offline deadlylover

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2022, 03:46:45 pm »
If they're "pre-charged" they must be the LSD kind, otherwise they'd die sitting on the shelves hahaha. These days you honestly just expect it and from a cursory glance on Amazon AU like 70% of listings are LSD.

Changing regions on Amazon is making my head spin, is something like the XTAR VC4 available for a good price? (is that CAD26?) Good to have if you ever want to use some 18650's in a flashlight or something.

Again I urge you to check out this site for charger reviews. Just sort by the smiley faces and see what's available to you.

Don't overthink it too much, these LSD batteries can take a pounding and in all honesty you're probably buying a solid charger that terminates properly. So what if they die an early death and can "only" give you 100-200 cycles before going high internal resistance? I have eneloops from 2009 still serving remote control or clock duty in their retirement.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2022, 04:01:30 pm »
I’m looking at something that will do slow charging, I don’t care about speed as I have enough batteries to swap. I just want to make sure it doesn’t kill the batteries. These Duracells mention absolutely nothing about whether they are LSD or similar to eneloops, maybe they make them or maybe they just rebadge them from another supplier and not allowed to use certain trademarked terms? They are obviously low self discharge as they come pre-charged and so far have far outlasted anything I’ve ever used before. I fully expect to need to spend a good 16 hours charging them slowest safest method possible like it says on the package (250mA for 16h). But the Panasonic eneloop charger which comes with 4 AAA at 6h charge time doesn’t tell me anything about how many mA it uses to charge.

If you don't want to kill your batteries you either need an effective negative-Delta V cutoff or you have to use a very slow trickle charge (<C/40) that takes days on end.  250mA for 16 hours is a terrible way to charge, no matter what it says on the package.  Timed chargers are crap, period.  Slower chargers are problematic because the lower the charge rate, the less pronounced the - ΔV signal is.  I would look for specific models that have been reviewed and tested and are known to work properly.  Even the "Panasonic designed for Eneloop" models vary somewhat in effectiveness.

The BQ-CC17 is known to work well and would be my first choice if you want inexpensive and only need AAA/AA NiMH capability.  It has a charge rate (stated on the unit) of 300mA for AA and 150mA for AAA.  Here is a detailed review.

https://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Charger%20Panasonic%20BQ-CC17%20UK.html
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2022, 04:36:37 pm »
Again I urge you to check out this site for charger reviews. Just sort by the smiley faces and see what's available to you.

Don't overthink it too much, these LSD batteries can take a pounding and in all honesty you're probably buying a solid charger that terminates properly. So what if they die an early death and can "only" give you 100-200 cycles before going high internal resistance? I have eneloops from 2009 still serving remote control or clock duty in their retirement.

Yes thanks, I am over-thinking it. Probably spending way more time on this than I should... time which I could have worked and made 10x as much money and instead I'm worrying about saving a few dollars.  :-DD Thanks for that list, it'll give me a good place to at least compare the top rated models and get an idea of reputable brand chargers and pick something up in a reasonable price range for my needs.

Using that list above I've narrowed it down to these 3 "two smiley face" versions, all of which are "Amazon's choice":

1. Panasonic BQ-CC17SBA eneloop Advanced Individual Battery Charger ($19.16 CAN)
https://www.amazon.ca/Panasonic-BQ-CC17SBA-Advanced-Individual-Indicator/dp/B00JHKSLM8

2. XTAR VC4 Universal Battery Charger ($25.99) (will also do Li-Ion but needs USB power supply)
https://www.amazon.ca/XTAR-Battery-Charger-Display-Multi-Functional/dp/B07HDRZYPS

3. Nitecore D4 Intelligent Digital LCD 4-Slot Universal Smart Battery Charger ($44.99)
https://www.amazon.ca/Intelligent-Universal-IMR%EF%BC%8Cli-ion%EF%BC%8CLiFePO4%EF%BC%8CNi-MH%EF%BC%8CNi-Cd-rechargeable-batteries/dp/B01IBAFA64

I've listed them in terms of price. Seems like the XSTAR is fairly versatile and not much more than the more basic Panasonic. Not sure if I want to splurge for the Nitecore. There really isn't anything much less than about $30 with a good reputation. I've looked for charger/battery combos and the best I could come up with are those Panasonic eneloop packages (individual cell charger with either 4AA or 4AAA) in the $40+ range. Not sure if I really want more batteries at this point... I have enough, just want to charge them properly.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 05:06:29 pm by edy »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2022, 05:21:17 pm »
If you look carefully at the photos the Duracell batteries say charge at 250mA for 16 hours. My energizer charger is 300mA output so it would be slowly charging these batteries… maybe 13-14 hours because of the slightly higher mA. I don’t know what the Energizer charger does to figure out when to shut off or if it actually just continues charging while the green light simply shows some parameter it’s reading off the pair of batteries. As well, will eneloop charger from Panasonic work on these Duracells or will it have problems?

That 250mA at 16 hours is the standard slow charge that is suggested for chargers lacking fancy features to properly terminate the charge.

I don't know about others but the Eneloop charger does stop charging when it detects the cells are full, and it charges them individually which is a feature you want. It will work with any NiMH cells.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2022, 06:06:14 pm »
I've listed them in terms of price.

Yikes!  No deals for Canadians, I guess!  I can get the charger and 4 AA batteries for $18...

https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-K-KJ17MCA4BA-Individual-eneloop-Rechargeable/dp/B00JHKSMJU?th=1
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2022, 06:09:19 pm »
That 250mA at 16 hours is the standard slow charge that is suggested for chargers lacking fancy features to properly terminate the charge.

I don't know about others but the Eneloop charger does stop charging when it detects the cells are full, and it charges them individually which is a feature you want. It will work with any NiMH cells.

250mA is way too high, it will cook cells if they become fully charged.  Say you put in a cell that is only half discharged and let it roast for 16 hours.  Not good.

Some Panasonic chargers are smart, whether fast or slow.  Others are dumb and should be avoided.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2022, 06:22:55 pm »
I’m looking at something that will do slow charging, I don’t care about speed as I have enough batteries to swap. I just want to make sure it doesn’t kill the batteries. These Duracells mention absolutely nothing about whether they are LSD or similar to eneloops, maybe they make them or maybe they just rebadge them from another supplier and not allowed to use certain trademarked terms? They are obviously low self discharge as they come pre-charged and so far have far outlasted anything I’ve ever used before. I fully expect to need to spend a good 16 hours charging them slowest safest method possible like it says on the package (250mA for 16h). But the Panasonic eneloop charger which comes with 4 AAA at 6h charge time doesn’t tell me anything about how many mA it uses to charge.

Why? I've been using a Lacrosse BC-700 for more than a decade, I usually charge at 500mA but sometimes I'm lazy and just use the default 250. I have never had a LSD cell fail, unless you count the one that was damaged by a short circuit in a flashlight. Eneloop, Amazon Basics, Fujitsu, all of them are still testing at least at rated capacity, even the ones i bought over 10 years ago. You can easily tell if your cells are LSD, they will come pre-charged and ready to use out of the package. Don't overthink it.
 

Offline Twoflower

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2022, 07:37:51 pm »
I've also use the BC700 for many years. But I noticed that the lowest charge-current can indeed cause some problems with Eneloops. I noticed that some cells get hotter than others of the same batch and the charge of the cells differ a lot. Both problems vanished by using higher charging currents.

My working theory is that the -deltaV detection fails to detect the slow drop of the cell voltage if charged with low current. With higher charge-currents the cell voltage drops faster and the circuit can detect the end of the charging more reliable. I never measured that so I'm not sure if that is the real explanation. The result of the higher current is as mentioned the cells don't get as hot at the end of the charge and all cells show only a minimal difference of the charge-capacity.
 

Offline alm

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2022, 08:01:40 pm »
I remember reading somewhere that the -dV detection might be less reliable under 0.3-0.4C, or for a 2500 mAh battery under 750 mA. I've always tried to stay above that value. I use an old Maha MH-C9000 charger that defaults to charging at 1000 mA.

Offline IanB

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2022, 09:25:28 pm »
The Panasonic BQ-CC17 is a good charger. I have one and have had no problems with it. It charges the batteries slowly (which is good), and has four individual charging channels. I have various other chargers, but the Panasonic is my set it and forget it option when I just want to charge some batteries.
 
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Offline rdl

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2022, 10:33:51 pm »
I had a Maha/Powerex C808 that I used for years. One day something went pop and it quit working. I was too lazy to fix it and after very little research ordered a Nitecore D4. I also needed more AA cells and found the Fujitsu charger with batteries for little more than the cost of the batteries alone. Last year when I needed some AAA cells the Eneloop AAA cells were on sale with the charger pretty cheap. That's how I ended up with three chargers. So far all the batteries and chargers have been working fine.

EBL seems to be a decent brand, but the only experience I have with them is their 9 volt rechargeables. I have a couple of the little oval shaped dual battery chargers that I've been using for years with both NiMH and Li-Ion batteries. I prefer the Li-Ion because the capacity is close to a normal 9 volt alkaline battery.
 

Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2022, 11:26:35 pm »
Yes Amazon Canada is more expensive, even after conversion from US to CAN. I need to purchase $35 worth for free shipping, which means I should be able to combine these:

1. Panasonic BQ-CC17SBA eneloop Advanced Individual Battery Charger ($19.16)
https://www.amazon.ca/Panasonic-BQ-CC17SBA-Advanced-Individual-Indicator/dp/B00JHKSLM8

2. Amazon Basics 12-Pack AAA Performance 800 mAh Rechargeable Batteries, Pre-Charged ($15.54)
https://www.amazon.ca/AmazonBasics-AAA-Rechargeable-Batteries-12-Pack/dp/B007B9NXAC


If that Panasonic charger will do the job, I think that may be easiest way to go. By the way I'm still listening on my WM-FX451 Sony Walkman using those pre-charged 2500 mAh Duracells now for a week, probably on my 20th cassette? It's ridiculous!

The Amazon Basics pre-charged AAA's are probably LSD also, can stuff them into all my remotes as they use AAA's and it should keep them going for years before I need to charge. Plus $15 for 12-pack isn't bad  I think. The Panasonic charger + 4 eneloop AAA's was $40, so I'm better off here buying the charger separately and these Amazon basic batteries (they are both 800 mAh).
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2022, 11:39:48 pm »
If they are pre-charged, they are LSD, that is a given.
 
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Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2022, 02:22:16 pm »
Thanks for all the input into this thread. My last experience with rechargeables was more than a decade ago and I’m glad to see things have significantly improved. My pre-charged Duracells finally died, at least in the Sony Walkman I used them in (Tecsun shortwave still going). I popped another 2 pre-charged AA’s from the same Duracell 4-pack I bought into the Walkman and expect it to go another 30 cassettes.  :-DD

Based on all the advice here I decided to just get the Panasonic CC17 “set it and forget it” charger. I can just leave it overnight and the next day should be ready. I don’t need speed, I have enough batteries to swap. I also picked up the Amazon-branded pre-charged AAA’s.

Since all these new batteries are LSD, I can just charge them up and keep them in my drawer ready to use. Gone are the days when I had to charge batteries up just before I need them… or keep them always in the charger, knowing that they start losing their charge quickly the minute I remove them from the charger. That was I think the biggest frustration with my old Energizer batteries. Since I needed to charge them in pairs because of the charger it came with, if I charged all 4 then by the time the first pair died the second pair was already half depleted. I’d have to anticipate when the pair I was using was about to die and get the second pair charged up the night before. So I never had a nice fully charged pair available and if I kept it in the charger topped up all the time it would eventually kill them.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Is it just me or have rechargeable NiMH improved?
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2022, 05:46:31 pm »
Since all these new batteries are LSD, I can just charge them up and keep them in my drawer ready to use.

That's what I've been doing for more than a decade. There's a tray in the desk drawer that charged batteries go into and a charger on the desk. Whenever something needs new batteries I pop the old ones in the charger and grab some fresh ones out of the drawer.
 
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