Author Topic: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan  (Read 7803 times)

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2019, 11:17:49 pm »
I don't know about Google, but Facebook has been actively collaborating with the governments of a few countries for a good while.

Couple examples:
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/12/facebook-is-collaborating-with-the-israeli-government-to-determine-what-should-be-censored/
http://en.rfi.fr/france/20190625-facebook-collaborate-french-government-hate-speech-cases-minister

I'm sure there are dozens of them.
 

Offline Deodand2014

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2019, 08:02:37 am »
Here is a trio of videos from a channel trying to cover WWII on a week-by-week basis, they hit monetization problems and search downgrades.

This is the first of two 'breakfast club' videos where they discussed the issue



In the second one they discussed Google's (aka YouTube's) reply and pointed out that the criteria they were sent for what could be demonetized were so vague that almost all human history fell under it.



And their response...

 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2019, 12:55:42 pm »
The WW2 channel dudes sound like bitching for why they were not getting a window seat in a holiday trip airplane that:
- was meant for a different destination than theirs
- still they were given a seat for free, anyway
- they talked only ugly stories all flight long while others were trying to have some holiday fun
- still they got a free meal during flight
- so when the cake was not big enough, their neighbor got a slice for being funnier while they don't.   :-//

YouTube is a space for placing ads, same as a billboard is, but in a different and cleverly twisted way.

YouTube is nobody's own TV broadcasting station.

Offline soldar

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2019, 01:21:35 pm »
Complaining about lack of neutrality is just too simple, not saying there are no sound cases. Those partially come from trying to automate the process vs. proper moderation. If all viewers like the latest fake news, conspiracy video or hatespeech, then there is no starting point for an algorithm to work with.

There are plenty of videos on YouTube showing things that are lies, like perpetual motion, dangerous, like how to cheat the electric power company by doing things that don't work anyway, and objectionable in many other ways. What is being demonitized is not specific content as much as unpopular content. That is because YouTube is in the business of selling advertising and they want to place their ads on popular videos not on videos that cause conflict.

You tube does not care if a guy posts videos of mice being tortured to death. But if a video of a dead mouse being eaten by a vulture gets a lot of complaints then they will demonitize it. Because that is the way their business model works.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2019, 02:08:15 pm »
Yeah, on Youtube, most decisions for demonetizing videos come from the advertisers (and that's what Youtube managers themselves admit).

Censored videos, it's a different thing. I've already noticed a few videos that were explicitely censored in a specific country ("content not available in your country"), with an explicit mention that it was due to a complaint from the said country's government. It's probably a very small fraction of all videos, but it does happen.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 02:29:15 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2019, 02:24:19 pm »
You tube does not care if a guy posts videos of mice being tortured to death. But if a video of a dead mouse being eaten by a vulture gets a lot of complaints then they will demonitize it. Because that is the way their business model works.
Except that they do care: “Mousetrap Mondays” had to stop showing mice being killed in mousetraps because they got demonetized.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2019, 02:52:31 pm »
the free speech and censorship argument becomes a bit complicated when there is only a few big players with a
virtual monopoly

google and facebook are not a government, but in "Internet land" they have more power
They arguably have more power than many countries. Maybe they don't have exclusive power in one country, but definitely a large influence distributed across many countries.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2019, 03:57:06 pm »
Exactly, it is optimized for popularity, in itself has practicalities of a popularity contest, with the minimum amount of effort required to keep the business legit. Would not make it different from any other business in the media world (including TV, Cinema, Arts), but some people have problems with it, from advertisers to content creators.

I think it might be a normal reaction to mentally put it in the same bucket as TV regarding censoring, if you could not show it there, then the reaction might have something to it (although TV is more curated and authored). It might be like 30-50 years apart that people complained about TV content and this now is just the same thing.

When using a platform with such a wide public audience, you can not choose your viewers, at the same time no one is prohibited to start his own platform and restrict access in any way necessary to handle complaints themselves.
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Offline windsmurf

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Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2019, 10:32:39 am »
The campaign just posted their points in form of a video:

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2019, 09:59:52 am »

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614055/youtube-union-ig-metall-labor-gdpr-privacy-policy-creators/
I they manage to convince Youtube one way or another. I'm sure that in the long run it is better for Youtube to have a well defined relation between the platform provider and the content providers.
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Offline IdahoMan

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2019, 04:59:29 pm »
We all knew when snowflake commies at G----- acquired YT, that things would go downhill for creativity and freedom of expression.

Google is actually banned on my computer. I use Block Site add-on for FireFox. It won't even allow a link on the list to load.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 05:07:56 pm by IdahoMan »
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2019, 06:16:43 pm »
Sounds like a neat idea but what can a union really do?  Youtube can wipe out all the channels who are part of the union if they really want to and hardly see a difference in their revenue.  Even in a real job setting a union only has so much power.  If the company wants to mass layoff people the union can't really stop it.  Unions are great in the work place as they do offer lot of protection and fairness, but not sure how it would work for youtubers as you're not really employed by Google. You're basically a contractor. 

What needs to happen is an alternative, ideally one not owned by a megacorporation with a capitalist agenda.  The odds of that happening is slim though... the costs of running something like that is crazy.      I could maybe see Amazon or Microsoft do it as they already own data centres and massive bandwidth but I think they would just be the same as Youtube with their policies. 
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2019, 10:33:59 pm »
Those unhappy with Youtube demonetizing content can demonetize Youtube back by using adblocking.
What needs to happen is an alternative, ideally one not owned by a megacorporation with a capitalist agenda.
Already exists - it's called Bittorrent.
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2019, 01:10:05 am »
Sounds like a neat idea but what can a union really do?  Youtube can wipe out all the channels who are part of the union if they really want to and hardly see a difference in their revenue.

Sure they will. You're forgetting the total space they live in. Other channels, including the popular and profitable ones, will see what's happening, and at the very least be concerned whether they're "next", and post videos to that effect.  The Twitterverse will explode with outrage.  People will complain on Facebook, and probably share more videos there (freebooting), instead of linking them.  Advertisers may protest, and do another pull-of-funds stunt.

Still maybe not much overall, but noticeable definitely, and magnified definitely.

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Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2019, 01:47:20 am »
Sounds like a neat idea but what can a union really do?
As they stated, they might generally sue based on hidden employee status or unspecific GDPR issues. If that happens they not only sue for their unionized members, but might lead to decisions that affect all. No idea how this might end, because as SiliconWizard said many creators upload to different platforms, YT just pays most i guess. This is a bit a hen or egg problem, because a small platform does not have a business model that allows for the problem (creators depend financially on a platform and its TOS) to exist in the first place.

Quote
What needs to happen is an alternative, ideally one not owned by a megacorporation with a capitalist agenda.  The odds of that happening is slim though... the costs of running something like that is crazy.      I could maybe see Amazon or Microsoft do it as they already own data centres and massive bandwidth but I think they would just be the same as Youtube with their policies.
Because the same starting conditions and environments lead to the same results. I mean you can see the serious shit that really needs to be removed, because they need to abide the law. The problem is to start mixing in purely moral values, although they already got the age verification for some content.

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Offline Deodand2014

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2019, 02:24:53 am »
Commentary from a crusty old bloke in New Zealand:



And to remember, YouTube is run by people who believe that it is their duty to ensure viewers are safe both online and offline.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2019, 03:08:26 pm »
As they stated, they might generally sue based on hidden employee status or unspecific GDPR issues. If that happens they not only sue for their unionized members, but might lead to decisions that affect all. No idea how this might end, because as SiliconWizard said many creators upload to different platforms, YT just pays most i guess.

Not only that, but believe me, most "Youtubers" wouldn't really want to be proper Youtube employees anyway. Be very careful what you wish for. Many people probably don't begin to understand what this status would entail, including losing all freedom to work as, when and with whomever they please.

Again to me it doesn't really make sense. You either want to be an independent worker or you don't. You can't have it both ways.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2019, 03:53:33 pm »
Can't youtube just ban all the channels that decide to join the union?  I could see them do that tbh.   That's the issue with trying to fight such a large company they always have a card they can pull and will be way ahead of you.

And yeah one advantage of being a "contractor" is you can somewhat do what you want.  Unfortunately you still have to abide by the rules and when they don't even tell you what the rules are... it makes life difficult.  Technically Youtubers can upload to alternate sites too but then Youtube can also turn around and say that if you upload to Youtube then they own all copyright of your video and you're not allowed to upload it anywhere else.  That's basically how the music industry works, artists don't own their own works and have no rights over it.    I think Youtube already does that for streaming. If you have a Youtube account you're not allowed to stream anything on a non Youtube platform.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 03:56:15 pm by Red Squirrel »
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2019, 04:10:00 pm »
What justification YT would use to ban union members? "You have been banned because you are a member of a union"? That would find its way into the press pretty fast and may be considered as retaliation and make big noise.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2019, 04:10:29 pm »
Can't youtube just ban all the channels that decide to join the union?

Well, as long as they don't actively promote the union in Youtube videos, I don't think they would really have a ground for banning them. As they are independent workers, what happens outside of Youtube is probably none of Youtube's business, as long as it's not illegal per se (such as false claims/false information/etc.)

But if they do, that could easily pass as disloyal to Youtube, which then could ban them I suppose.

Imagine the extreme situation in which a channel would consist almost exclusively of videos bashing Youtube. Not sure it would last for very long.

Unfortunately you still have to abide by the rules and when they don't even tell you what the rules are... it makes life difficult.

Fair enough. But again, there is no obligation from either side here. A Youtuber has no obligation to post new videos, Youtube has no obligation to keep them available...

Technically Youtubers can upload to alternate sites too but then Youtube can also turn around and say that if you upload to Youtube then they own all copyright of your video and you're not allowed to upload it anywhere else.

But do they do this? Does Youtube actually own copyright of posted videos? I don't think so? And I highly doubt they could ever pull that off. That would ruin their business IMO, and again as long as they don't actually BUY the right to own the copyright, they just can't have it. When they give money to Youtubers, they don't buy the copyrights, they just give them back a fraction of whatever money the video makes for Youtube AFAIK...
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2019, 10:27:12 pm »
There is no requirement for YouTube to justify anything they do.  It might be bad public relations but that is it.  They already are very nebulous about violations for this very reason.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2019, 10:39:04 am »
Can't youtube just ban all the channels that decide to join the union?
Well, as long as they don't actively promote the union in Youtube videos, I don't think they would really have a ground for banning them. As they are independent workers, what happens outside of Youtube is probably none of Youtube's business, as long as it's not illegal per se (such as false claims/false information/etc.)

But if they do, that could easily pass as disloyal to Youtube, which then could ban them I suppose.
I think that might go to some higher court then, as the connection of unionizing and disloyalty would be as much an imputation/libel as it would mean they handle creators like employees. Probably won´t happen unless legally required to treat unions as terror organizations.

In itself the problem is less that YT rewards creators for content the way they do (they somehow needed, otherwise there would be no way to sort out the copyright violations that threatened the platform, by setting it directly on a monetary base and then redirecting the money to the source), the assumption that you can depend most of your income on youtube was made by the creators in the first place, based on the experience they made so far.

The hidden employee status might be too big of a stretch in a freelancing scenario, but i think a contract that involves being paid at will of the other party is a legal problem of some sort, after you invested effort into it. There is some ambiguity, as the content might just have no views or be of low value, but  high view count/watch time and demonetization without a reason given kind of break the contract, and willful setting of the price does not help either. The value is not the only parameter, it could also be the measurement of watchtime (not independently measured).

Unions don´t care about freelancers, they usually work for the contract details as offered. It just happens that this falls in the same time in which others try to pay for labor by making it look like freelancing, although the laborer is doing full time for them under horrible conditions. This would be a huge loophole which even the government is not interested to grow big (loss of taxes, voters, undermining of workers rights and laws), so the unions get involved.

Quote
Imagine the extreme situation in which a channel would consist almost exclusively of videos bashing Youtube. Not sure it would last for very long.
They don´t have to delete it (that might get them into problems with free speech, depending on country), but they can set the value of it and not recommend it to viewers.

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2019, 11:57:23 am »
Sounds like a neat idea but what can a union really do?
As they stated, they might generally sue based on hidden employee status or unspecific GDPR issues. If that happens they not only sue for their unionized members, but might lead to decisions that affect all.

And that's the worry, what if they screw it up for everyone?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Is the S**t about to hit the you tube fan
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2019, 12:01:34 pm »
Can't youtube just ban all the channels that decide to join the union?
Well, as long as they don't actively promote the union in Youtube videos, I don't think they would really have a ground for banning them. As they are independent workers, what happens outside of Youtube is probably none of Youtube's business, as long as it's not illegal per se (such as false claims/false information/etc.)
But if they do, that could easily pass as disloyal to Youtube, which then could ban them I suppose.

It's already against the T&C to promote other live streaming services like Twitch in a Youtube video
https://www.reddit.com/r/Twitch/comments/8s8ujf/youtube_is_cracking_down_on_twitch_streamers/
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 12:03:27 pm by EEVblog »
 
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