Author Topic: Is there any theoretical limit to stupidity? (Android permission auto-revoke)  (Read 10691 times)

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Offline emece67Topic starter

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« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 05:12:40 pm by emece67 »
 

Offline Siwastaja

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* Alarm clock requiring reconfiguration every three days, otherwise it silently fails to alarm
* Cannot call the emergency number if not logged in to Microsoft Teams
    * Fix is not to upgrade the OS core to remove this dependency which shouldn't exist in the first place, but to apply a bugfix in Microsoft Teams

There are reasons why I don't own a modern "phone". Not only it demonstrably ruins lives, it is actually dangerous. Mine is from 2005 and keeps working. If they force people into modern phones, then I guess I can be reached using email, snail mail, physical visit, or maybe Skype, unless Microsoft decides to completely break it, too.

This being said, my alarm clock in the 2005 phone has a bug, too. It has failed to alarm me once or twice due to that. But at least it is not intentional, but a honest bug.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 11:04:32 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline SL4P

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As we all know, like Y2K and the linux time rollover, stupidity has continued its inexorable spread in modern civilisations.
Take the US election in 2016 as an example.
Nobody in their right mind would have believed that might happen, but with the benefit of reality TV and shrinking education - it became possible.

A few years ago, I coined the term ‘American Devolution’, which, like the pandemic has unfortunately spread to almost every other country,

The other bogey in the room is ‘objective’ administration and management displacing ‘subjective’ development and collaboration.
Fix the PERCEPTION of a problem, don’t bother fixing THE problem, that’s too expensive.
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 

Offline Halcyon

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I miss the days where you could turn off your Nokia phone completely but the alarm would still go off when set.

To the OP, I don't think you're problem is Android per se, rather the buggy, bloated, bastardised junk that some manufacturers pass off as an Android experience. Xiamoi's MIUI software is one of them. It's complete shit. Oppo's ColorOS isn't much better. These two (and others) might be based off Android, but are so far disconnected from how actual proper native Android operates.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2022, 04:20:04 am by Halcyon »
 
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Offline ejeffrey

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I've definitely never had this with android.  Permissions are removed after a period of inactivity, but they automatically ask for permissions next time they are needed.  The only time it is needed to disable this behavior is for background applications.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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To the OP, I don't think you're problem is Android per se, rather the buggy, bloated, bastardised junk that some manufacturers pass off as an Android experience. Xiamoi's MIUI software is one of them. It's complete shit. Oppo's ColorOS isn't much better. These two (and others) might be based off Android, but are so far disconnected from how actual proper native Android operates.
How long before manufacturers would figure out that rather than spend a lot of effort on making their own Android builds, sponsoring a LineageOS developer would be far cheaper and yield better results?
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
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Offline PlainName

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How long before manufacturers would figure out that rather than spend a lot of effort on making their own Android builds, sponsoring a LineageOS developer would be far cheaper and yield better results?

Didn't Wiley Fox try that? Look where it got them (albeit with CyanagenOS, the precursor to LineageOS).
 

Online tszaboo

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I really loved when they changed my locksreen to "Wallpaper carousel" put some inappropriate picture on it (it was weed plants or smt like that), and I had to accept terms and conditions when trying to unlock my phone. Out of nothing of course, I didn't ask for any of this. Searched how to disable it? You cannot fully.
Considering smashing the damn thing, but they dont make banking app and crypto wallet for my old Windows Phone. That never changed anything unless I asked it to.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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I noticed this revoking permission thing, but in my case, it was at least for apps that I hadn't used in a long time.

Another annoying thing with Android is that (at least on several Android systems I tried from 8 to 11) if you use fingerprint for unlocking the device, it will ask for your password every 3 f*king*days, and it's not even a setting, so you can't change that. One week or even one month would have been fine by me. Or just when I reboot the system.

All in all, it comes down to a common cause: software that is designed to know better than yourself what you need. It's a pretty general trend in software these days. It's horrible. And I'm not sure "stupidity" is the problem.

Oh, and it's not restricted to software either... but that's a bit beyond this topic.

 

Offline Siwastaja

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It's not stupidity.

It's a deliberate act to slowly render the society dysfunctional. It comes in all flavors, big and small, the key is to make everyday lives as difficult and unsafe as possible. People are made to conform to this kind of BS, and accept it.

All that "two factor authentication" BS is part of this. It's pretty revealing that a company for which security has never meant anything is most strongly driving this.

Sounds like a tinfoil hat thing but I'm really serious.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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It's not stupidity.

It's a deliberate act to slowly render the society dysfunctional. It comes in all flavors, big and small, the key is to make everyday lives as difficult and unsafe as possible. People are made to conform to this kind of BS, and accept it.

All that "two factor authentication" BS is part of this. It's pretty revealing that a company for which security has never meant anything is most strongly driving this.

Sounds like a tinfoil hat thing but I'm really serious.

If you're even moderately interested in security, you wouldn't be buying a handset from Chinese manufacturers. I know it might sound like generalisation, but it's largely true. Their primary motivator is to make a feature phone with all the bells and whistles of a Samsung device but at a fraction of the cost. Pay a bit more and get something decent from companies like Samsung, Google or even Apple. Those handsets are pretty solid.
 
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Offline ve7xen

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I noticed this revoking permission thing, but in my case, it was at least for apps that I hadn't used in a long time.

Another annoying thing with Android is that (at least on several Android systems I tried from 8 to 11) if you use fingerprint for unlocking the device, it will ask for your password every 3 f*king*days, and it's not even a setting, so you can't change that. One week or even one month would have been fine by me. Or just when I reboot the system.

All in all, it comes down to a common cause: software that is designed to know better than yourself what you need. It's a pretty general trend in software these days. It's horrible. And I'm not sure "stupidity" is the problem.

Oh, and it's not restricted to software either... but that's a bit beyond this topic.

While I agree with your premise, I think that security features are a reasonable exception, since users don't know what's best for them, and stand to be seriously screwed if you let them do what they think is best. Password 'reminder' prompts like you're describing are annoying, so many users - even experienced ones - would disable them if given the choice - but they work. Then they'll forget their password, since they've been unlocking their phone exclusively with biometrics for the past 6 months, and don't use it anywhere else, then they'll need to take it to the store for help wiping it, and they'll lose all their data. They might also lose access to many of their online accounts, because they lose the 2FA keys. That's a bad user experience that will put them off the product, even though it's their own 'fault' for forgetting a password they've had no reason to remember.

Ditto with permission revocation. Managing permissions is a pain in the ass, and to mitigate that, users 'set it and forget it', which is probably not what their trust model supports, whether they are thinking about it or not. Revoking permissions after a period of disuse makes perfect sense, it's clearly not important to the user that this app have permanent permission if they are barely using it, and the prompt to re-enable it if they do isn't a significant barrier.
73 de VE7XEN
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Offline Halcyon

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I noticed this revoking permission thing, but in my case, it was at least for apps that I hadn't used in a long time.

Another annoying thing with Android is that (at least on several Android systems I tried from 8 to 11) if you use fingerprint for unlocking the device, it will ask for your password every 3 f*king*days, and it's not even a setting, so you can't change that. One week or even one month would have been fine by me. Or just when I reboot the system.

All in all, it comes down to a common cause: software that is designed to know better than yourself what you need. It's a pretty general trend in software these days. It's horrible. And I'm not sure "stupidity" is the problem.

Oh, and it's not restricted to software either... but that's a bit beyond this topic.

While I agree with your premise, I think that security features are a reasonable exception, since users don't know what's best for them, and stand to be seriously screwed if you let them do what they think is best. Password 'reminder' prompts like you're describing are annoying, so many users - even experienced ones - would disable them if given the choice - but they work. Then they'll forget their password, since they've been unlocking their phone exclusively with biometrics for the past 6 months, and don't use it anywhere else, then they'll need to take it to the store for help wiping it, and they'll lose all their data. They might also lose access to many of their online accounts, because they lose the 2FA keys. That's a bad user experience that will put them off the product, even though it's their own 'fault' for forgetting a password they've had no reason to remember.

Ditto with permission revocation. Managing permissions is a pain in the ass, and to mitigate that, users 'set it and forget it', which is probably not what their trust model supports, whether they are thinking about it or not. Revoking permissions after a period of disuse makes perfect sense, it's clearly not important to the user that this app have permanent permission if they are barely using it, and the prompt to re-enable it if they do isn't a significant barrier.

Yep, I certainly don't disagree with any of that. But ultimately, consumers should have a choice.
 

Offline IanB

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Then they'll forget their password, since they've been unlocking their phone exclusively with biometrics for the past 6 months, and don't use it anywhere else, then they'll need to take it to the store for help wiping it, and they'll lose all their data.

This has already happened to me once. Biometric security is extremely dangerous if you have no way to recover a forgotten password.

I now understand why Apple forces you to unlock your phone manually once a week.
 

Offline PlainName

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Pay a bit more and get something decent from companies like Samsung

I used to do that (buy Samsung) and hated everyone one. The only Samsung device I now use is the TV, and that only because it predates the data snarfing models and it only has to show a picture from a STB.
 

Offline Fredderic

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The first couple posts here sounded like the Grandpa brigade going, "Get off my lawn with your new fangled technology I don't understand, you youngun's".

Then they'll forget their password, since they've been unlocking their phone exclusively with biometrics for the past 6 months, and don't use it anywhere else, then they'll need to take it to the store for help wiping it, and they'll lose all their data.

This has already happened to me once. Biometric security is extremely dangerous if you have no way to recover a forgotten password.

I now understand why Apple forces you to unlock your phone manually once a week.

So much this.  The 3-day login prompt annoys me sometimes too, but, I don't remember my ATM card PIN right now, because I've been using the tap thing with my phone.  I'd hate to forget my phone unlock code too, and I KNOW I will.  Do kinda wish it was configurable — I'm reasonably sure my brain could handle 5 days between reminders.  But then, I guess what's the chance I'd slowly walk it out until I did forget…?

I've never experienced most of these issues commented on here, either — I'm using Samsung (been thinking of going Pixel next, try a little closer to pure Android — and get rid of stupid Bixby, plus having one less company spying on all my important datas.  Meh, nothing's ever perfect.).  I get prompts to let me know it's putting apps to sleep (sometimes I wish it'd just do it already, but it's a good thing often enough that I'm usually glad it didn't), and prompts to let me know it's revoking permissions (and you can tell it not to), and it takes all of a few seconds to flip through and ignore it (usually leave it until I'm stuck waiting for something, so it's not even taking otherwise useful time).  Never had it even try to break calls, but, if you're not using the stock call app,etc., it may not know to leave it alone.

So yeah, also agree that it's most likely your crappy elcheapo whatzit screwing up Android.  (Or maybe it did give you the problems, and you just ignored it without paying attention and/or understanding.  "Get off my lawn, darned Android whappersnipper!")
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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To the OP, I don't think you're problem is Android per se, rather the buggy, bloated, bastardised junk that some manufacturers pass off as an Android experience. Xiamoi's MIUI software is one of them. It's complete shit. Oppo's ColorOS isn't much better. These two (and others) might be based off Android, but are so far disconnected from how actual proper native Android operates.
How long before manufacturers would figure out that rather than spend a lot of effort on making their own Android builds, sponsoring a LineageOS developer would be far cheaper and yield better results?

As someone who begrudgingly buys two phones per decade, I can tell you that I do visit the shops every 6-12 months with the intent of being sold a new device. I just hate the way they change things. But, all people seem to want in a new fone is a shiny widget that jumps around on the screen so they can show their peers. And a screen that isn't cracked.
iratus parum formica
 

Offline SilverSolder

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There isn't enough understanding among the public (yet) that security imposes a cost -  hardware, software, and user experience.  Users have less and less say in what this compromise should be, because major corporations (like banks, for example) require the end device to be security-hardened in order to allow it to be used for transactions -  governments require it because increasingly, phones are used for other ID purposes - and so on and on.   The security requirements beyond a basic level are not driven by the users at all.

There is really no way out of this hole as long as you keep believing that it is "your" phone!  Once you accept that the phone isn't yours, and you begin treating it as if it had been issued to you by your employer, you will be a lot happier.


 

Offline eti

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Recently changed to a new Android phone (a MIUI equipped one). Now it has a feature, of course aimed at increasing security, that automatically revokes permissions to apps if they remain unused for «a few months».

The problem is that the «few months» were 3 days. After such 3 days the system revoked permissions to a lot of apps. In order not to annoy me with a bunch of notifications, the system didn't warn about such revocations and, even more, the affected apps didn't ask me, when launched, about granting again such revoked permissions, they simply refused to properly work.

Thus I ended up with the alarm clock not allowed to play sounds, Maps not allowed to access location, Gallery not allowed to access media, Messages not allowed to access SMS, and so on.

I needed to manually grant permissions for each application. A benefit of traveling thru all apps permissions was that I was able to turn-off such permission auto-revoke feature, as it cannot be disabled globally, but only app by app.

Thus, I'm guessing if there is any known theoretical limit to stupidity and, if so, how close is this design, aimed at disabling almost all device functions just 3 days after purchase without notifying the user, to such limit.

Regards.



My deepest and sincerest sympathy goes out to you for choosing anything Xiaomi phone. I bought one (I'm well informed) as a stop gap, two years ago. Yeah.... nope. Never again. MIUI is too awful.to be called a joke, since jokes are funny.

Android is bad enough, but MIUI, Xiaomi and all their "We're the Chinese Apple" BS. 🤦‍♂️

 

Offline eti

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I'll remark, if I may, that, despite all these ridiculous re-hashes of Android - they're all - for better or worse - just re-hashes of a ghastly design. There may be "better" or "worse" variants, but they're only "better" or "worse" within the scope of Android, which ain't saying much. If any of these companies had any brains, they'd have found a sound and solid competitor to iOS, built from the ground up FROM SCRATCH, as an intelligent company would... (and not based on Android OR Linux, that has been tried and flopped too many times as to make it a parody of itself) and they haven't, except for Microsoft with "Windows Phone" 7 and 8, and that was a REALLY nice OS, and I still have a Lumia 640 XL upstairs, and love it, despite it being obsoleted.

Variants of a turd are still a turd.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 08:06:19 am by eti »
 

Offline emece67Topic starter

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« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 05:15:04 pm by emece67 »
 

Online JohanH

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My last two phones have been Sony. The previous one I actually installed and used Jolla's Sailfish OS on for a couple of years, until my banking apps stopped working. Sony's Android isn't that bad, it is quite close to the upstream variant and doesn't have much bloatware. Sony also support third party development (kernel and drivers available), that's why it is possible to install Sailfish on their phones. I'm still thinking about doing it again. Sailfish isn't a completely open platform (GUI is partially proprietary), but you can run any linux on top of it if you wish. And there is a real terminal and you can SSH to the device and do real stuff, like configure the system like a real Linux OS. I miss that I could rsync pictures and files from the phone.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 09:08:50 am by jukk »
 

Offline eti

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^ “ain’t that bad”’is not the same as “absolutely brilliant”, and hardly a glowing testimony. 😄
 

Offline eti

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My last two phones have been Sony. The previous one I actually installed and used Jolla's Sailfish OS on for a couple of years, until my banking apps stopped working. Sony's Android isn't that bad, it is quite close to the upstream variant and doesn't have much bloatware. Sony also support third party development (kernel and drivers available), that's why it is possible to install Sailfish on their phones. I'm still thinking about doing it again. Sailfish isn't a completely open platform (GUI is partially proprietary), but you can run any linux on top of it if you wish. And there is a real terminal and you can SSH to the device and do real stuff, like configure the system like a real Linux OS. I miss that I could rsync pictures and files from the phone.

Dude, you’re actually adorable and nice, and I genuinely mean that, because you seem totally oblivious to how the interned target demographic of users of smartphones use them. Whoever wants to ssh into their phone “because I can!”?

I maybe did it once, then sat for a minute, scratching my head and asking “Okay, well now what?”

I can ssh into most gadgets I own, but…. why? I ssh into my laptop and servers, but my PHONE?

I can see you’re a diehard Linux appreciator, so enjoy ssh’ing to your phone, and hoping that Linux will “rule the world one day”.

Admit this is you in this video - there’s no shame in being a talented comedian:




Such comedy and free!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 09:32:42 am by eti »
 

Online JohanH

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Such comedy and free!

Finally. I'm so happy I can make other people happy. Enjoy!
 


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