Author Topic: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??  (Read 36339 times)

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Offline domm123

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Hi all, take a look at this video:


(sorry for those who cannot understand chinese.)

Or is this the reason why chinese pcb are always so ugly looking?

Thanks
 

Offline lhc

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2010, 04:12:24 pm »
That guy soldering like a medieval blacksmith must have a helluva headache from the heat and rosin/tin(lead?!) fumes. Do they have any work safety regulations there? Also nice el cheapo irons - working with that blazing hot handle must be great and don't even mention the soldering quality with those things + optical quality control rules (that girl doesn't see crap after shuffling the boards for few hours).
 

Offline Zad

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2010, 04:14:53 pm »
Yes to both of those questions. It is the industrial method, and it is the cheapo way. What it boils down to is economics unfortunately. Chinese (or Taiwanese, whatever) labour is cheaper than paying umpteen thousand dollah for an insertion machine and a proper wave flow solder system. That means they charge least, and so any manufacturer who puts price above quality (i.e. 99% of them) goes with it. After that, it gets into the morals of industrialisation and fair pay. Sweatshop labour vs no money to feed the kids etc.

It is probably fair to say that if you see any equipment with a PCB that is very warped then it has made using the manual mathod you see at the beginning. Probably no coincidence that these are the ones that tend to be covered in lots of horrible hot melt glue.

Health and safety regulations? Ahahahahahahaha.

Offline Simon

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2010, 04:36:19 pm »
yea I second Zad on everything. I'd say and the original poster can probably correct me that this is some sort of company tutorial ?
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 05:00:49 pm »

(sorry for those who cannot understand chinese.)

Or is this the reason why chinese pcb are always so ugly looking?

Thanks

I feel sorry for them too , for the ones that they cannot understand Chinese.

Thats an amazing video , presenting the old method of soldering and the problems ,
in comparison with the latest and finest one , with machinery made 100% by the Chinese,
so to support their own production.

Those people they build their own ICs  & theyr own PCB's , and their own industrial tools.
They are unbeatable .. and worthy of congratulations ..

The years that the Unites states with their Silicon Valley , was manipulating the market ,
by selling dirt in the price of gold , are over .

I am unable to forget the amount of money that I have spent over the Motorola MRF317  transistors ...

Its time the market to balance ... and the gain finally to be, at the side of the consumers. 
 

 
 

Offline Zad

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 05:57:27 pm »
Of course, how many times when you order MRF317 from China do you actually get MRF317?

Offline Rhythmtech

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 06:09:13 pm »

(sorry for those who cannot understand chinese.)

Or is this the reason why chinese pcb are always so ugly looking?

Thanks

I feel sorry for them too , for the ones that they cannot understand Chinese.

Thats an amazing video , presenting the old method of soldering and the problems ,
in comparison with the latest and finest one , with machinery made 100% by the Chinese,
so to support their own production.

Those people they build their own ICs  & theyr own PCB's , and their own industrial tools.
They are unbeatable .. and worthy of congratulations ..

The years that the Unites states with their Silicon Valley , was manipulating the market ,
by selling dirt in the price of gold , are over .

I am unable to forget the amount of money that I have spent over the Motorola MRF317  transistors ...

Its time the market to balance ... and the gain finally to be, at the side of the consumers. 
 

 

John V. Atanasoff - inventor of the digital computer
Jack Kilby - inventor of the integrated circuit
Steve Wozniak among others - pioneers of the home computer
Robert Noyce - cofounder of Intel and integrated circuit pioneer
Harold Stephen Black - Inventor of the negative feedback amplifier
Edwin Howard Armstrong -Inventor of FM radio

I could keep going on...  
If you want to justify unsafe Chinese labor practices because it screws "American Imperialism" over, I am not going condemn you that's your prerogative. However, can you truly say you have not benefited in the least from the labors of Americans?  

The reason the Chinese components are cheaper is that they are not using or using stolen ISO Quality Assurance practices, OSHA is not looking over their shoulder, and they are probably receiving subsidies from their government to continue working under hazardous conditions.  Seems like they might have at least bought the solder tank dude some gloves and eye protection made in China dirt cheap!  

I am trying to respectfully ask you recognize that by insulting Americans you are insulting many engineers who have furthered electronics and helped changed the world for the better.  


 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2010, 07:22:56 pm »
Of course, how many times when you order MRF317 from China do you actually get MRF317?


Is it that hard to say that this tree are taler than the next to it , no matter to who belongs.

I am an neutral observer , and I have no problem to admit and describe the truth.

Even so the damn MRF317 they do burn out easily , you did not do your best .. try harder or sell them by the kilo. 
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 07:28:17 pm »
I could keep going on...  
If you want to justify unsafe Chinese labor practices because it screws "American Imperialism" over, I am not going condemn you that's your prerogative. However, can you truly say you have not benefited in the least from the labors of Americans?  

The reason the Chinese components are cheaper is that they are not using or using stolen ISO Quality Assurance practices, OSHA is not looking over their shoulder, and they are probably receiving subsidies from their government to continue working under hazardous conditions.  Seems like they might have at least bought the solder tank dude some gloves and eye protection made in China dirt cheap!  

I am trying to respectfully ask you recognize that by insulting Americans you are insulting many engineers who have furthered electronics and helped changed the world for the better.  


Well  if you continue to insult one billion Chinese people because of your ego , its not an smart idea either.
And as I said and above , I am just an observer ..  but I do not plan to stay silent , so to keep anyones ego happy ..   
 

Offline Rhythmtech

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 07:43:23 pm »
I could keep going on... 
If you want to justify unsafe Chinese labor practices because it screws "American Imperialism" over, I am not going condemn you that's your prerogative. However, can you truly say you have not benefited in the least from the labors of Americans? 

The reason the Chinese components are cheaper is that they are not using or using stolen ISO Quality Assurance practices, OSHA is not looking over their shoulder, and they are probably receiving subsidies from their government to continue working under hazardous conditions.  Seems like they might have at least bought the solder tank dude some gloves and eye protection made in China dirt cheap! 

I am trying to respectfully ask you recognize that by insulting Americans you are insulting many engineers who have furthered electronics and helped changed the world for the better. 


Well  if you continue to insult one billion Chinese people because of your ego , its not an smart idea either.
And as I said and above , I am just an observer ..  but I do not plan to stay silent , so to keep anyones ego happy ..   


I will happily insult Chinese labor practices. They suck. Just because there are a billion of them it does not mean they are right.

UPDATE:  What does my ego have to do with facts?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 08:05:36 pm by Rhythmtech »
 

Online jahonen

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2010, 07:58:52 pm »
When the Chinese eventually get the same consistent quality level than in other countries, we found that their products are just as expensive than what we started with.

Regards,
Janne
 

Offline Rhythmtech

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2010, 08:27:19 pm »
When the Chinese eventually get the same consistent quality level than in other countries, we found that their products are just as expensive than what we started with.

Regards,
Janne

Agreed, in the end it comes down to process and quality assurance. The savings we are seeing now via China will be gone soon, they are seeing almost exponential increases in the pay rates of their work force, Foxconn employees are committing suicide because they lose iPhones, Chinese people wade through oil spills with buckets to perform cleanups, they keep inmates on death row alive until they sell their organs. I am sure there are some bright spots and improving conditions, but it is easy to forget the actual cost of what you are buying when you save on Chinese products.

Gee, I feel a lot less evil being an American. 

 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2010, 08:46:02 pm »
UPDATE:  What does my ego have to do with facts?

Ok now that the spirits had calm down , lets speak with facts ...

The video shows 95% the old process and the problems , and the last 5% shows one perfect from any aspect high tech system , that does the job , perfectly with out to cause risk for the human life ,
as it does all the dirty work alone ..  And thats my friend, are an fact !!
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2010, 08:48:40 pm »
I Love Nokia! ;D

I love Sony Ericsson ..  :P  ;D

And I am an official translator of this project..
http://www.fjsoft.at/en/downloads.php





.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 08:54:34 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline Rhythmtech

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2010, 09:01:07 pm »
UPDATE:  What does my ego have to do with facts?

Ok now that the spirits had calm down , lets speak with facts ...

The video shows 95% the old process and the problems , and the last 5% shows one perfect from any aspect high tech system , that does the job , perfectly with out to cause risk for the human life ,
as it does all the dirty work alone ..  And thats my friend, are an fact !!

Agreed, those improvements will eventually show up as better quality component with increased prices.


 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2010, 09:18:01 pm »
Agreed, those improvements will eventually show up as better quality component with increased prices.

I do not think so ...  
Just less and less people In China, they will continue to work in the electronics production ... as workers.

They will pass slowly from the same steps , that the international industry had pass all ready.
At list they will keep the electricians in place ..   ;D

This sample of one "simple" tachometer , its the proof that they are on the right track.
15 $   ....  with case and battery and shipping  ..  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1010.0

I got that excited that I ordered today and the Ultrasonic Distance Measure Laser Pointer DM220
Just another 16$ ....   I will review it in ten days or so ..  But I know that is perfect the specific one,
I have see it in Europe to be promoted from an German company with their Logo, and it complies to all the European specifications and directives,  I just got my item direct from the source ..  ;D
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 09:20:31 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline PetrosA

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2010, 03:18:54 am »
I got that excited that I ordered today and the Ultrasonic Distance Measure Laser Pointer DM220
Just another 16$ ....   I will review it in ten days or so ..  But I know that is perfect the specific one,
I have see it in Europe to be promoted from an German company with their Logo, and it complies to all the European specifications and directives,  I just got my item direct from the source ..  ;D

As long as you only use it in clean air and check your measurements a few times, you might be happy with it ;) I've tried a few ultrasonic distance measurers and none of them worked reliably. I ended up with a Fluke laser measurer (range ~30m, accuracy very high) which is working beyond my expectations. Two thumbs up!
I miss my home I miss my porch, porch
 

Offline ArtemisGoldfish

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2010, 04:35:56 am »
Not all Chinese fabrication houses are bad, just some of them. For instance, at work we stopped using a certain supplier (I think it was Dragon Display Tech.) because of their poor quality, but we also use companies like Winstar because they actually have quality construction processes.
John, Hardware Technician, F5 Networks
 

Offline tycz

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2010, 10:23:35 am »
That guy soldering like a medieval blacksmith must have a helluva headache from the heat and rosin/tin(lead?!) fumes. Do they have any work safety regulations there?

I've done soldering this way (dip method) and I really can't see what the big deal is... What do you do when only need to assemble, say, 500 boards a year and don't want to contract the work out? Buy a big solder pot and start dipping!
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2010, 10:30:53 am »
I got that excited that I ordered today and the Ultrasonic Distance Measure Laser Pointer DM220
Just another 16$ ....   I will review it in ten days or so ..  But I know that is perfect the specific one,
I have see it in Europe to be promoted from an German company with their Logo, and it complies to all the European specifications and directives,  I just got my item direct from the source ..  ;D

As long as you only use it in clean air and check your measurements a few times, you might be happy with it ;) I've tried a few ultrasonic distance measurers and none of them worked reliably. I ended up with a Fluke laser measurer (range ~30m, accuracy very high) which is working beyond my expectations. Two thumbs up!

Well the one that I got,  looks to have an reliable father ..  :D
http://www.sinpa.com.cn/about.asp

Product: .. http://www.sinpa.com.cn/products_d.asp?product_id=2
 

Offline Rhythmtech

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2010, 03:45:38 pm »
Agreed, those improvements will eventually show up as better quality component with increased prices.

I do not think so ...  
Just less and less people In China, they will continue to work in the electronics production ... as workers.

They will pass slowly from the same steps , that the international industry had pass all ready.
At list they will keep the electricians in place ..   ;D

This sample of one "simple" tachometer , its the proof that they are on the right track.
15 $   ....  with case and battery and shipping  ..  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1010.0

I got that excited that I ordered today and the Ultrasonic Distance Measure Laser Pointer DM220
Just another 16$ ....   I will review it in ten days or so ..  But I know that is perfect the specific one,
I have see it in Europe to be promoted from an German company with their Logo, and it complies to all the European specifications and directives,  I just got my item direct from the source ..  ;D

I understand, I've bought similar items and have not been unhappy. I own a Uni-T UT603 I am happy with.  Companies all over the world are rebranding Chinese products, providing support which is often poor from the Chinese manufacturer and everyone is profitable and happy. 

I still believe it is not possible for the Chinese to manufacture products responsibly to the same quality standard as Germany, Japan, and the USA  without increasing costs exponentially.  They are already seeing very large increases in the average wage. Complex processes, new machinery, quality assurance, safety, etc....  all cost more to do.  There are many things that also occur which do not make sense environmentally or financially. For example, ore from Australia is shipped to china to be processed into steel then sold and shipped to the USA. This is cheaper because China's environmental laws regarding steel mills are generally lax and their fuel is subsidized by their government so shipping from Australia is cheaper than mining in their own country. None of us care because the prices are too good and the environmental mess is not happening in our backyard. I realize when I buy a Chinese product I am doing it selfishly to save money because there will be repercussions in the future at some point we will all pay for. Either in increased component costs, environmental disasters, or maybe even industrial genocide. If the only value we assign to these things is the savings in our wallet we have reduced too many things to just economy.
 

Offline Rhythmtech

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2010, 03:55:21 pm »
That guy soldering like a medieval blacksmith must have a helluva headache from the heat and rosin/tin(lead?!) fumes. Do they have any work safety regulations there?

I've done soldering this way (dip method) and I really can't see what the big deal is... What do you do when only need to assemble, say, 500 boards a year and don't want to contract the work out? Buy a big solder pot and start dipping!

The dude should have some gloves, maybe some kind of fixture that dips the board so he can't drop a board in the tank on accident and prevents splashing or sloshing, safety glasses or face shield, and if there wasn't one a vent hood sucking out fumes.  Most of these things with the exception of the fixture are on hand and available in 99% of the labs I have seen.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2010, 04:08:48 pm »
I'm afraid that at the end of the day low costs is the only thing people want. I would happily buy British made stuff for a little more, but are there any British manufacturers ? NO it has all been sold to china. Now who can make the difference ? The government, guess who the government is made of ? business men who only care about making laws for their own businesses and saving a heap of money because it is not enough that they have more than they need already and can spend all day doing nothing but calling each other names and feeling good about them selves and their "right honourable mates and friends"

This whole world is run by money and money alone, get rid of the money and you will greatly reduce the problem but we can't live without it.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2010, 09:42:56 pm »
I'm afraid that at the end of the day low costs is the only thing people want.

I'm afraid that at the end of the day, some countries  , they will not make income , by producing electronics.
Some countries they will not be called master heads , because they think that they own technology,
as to was an object , or an monopoly that their own..

The Americans use to say .. we are in a free Country ..  well guess what , now you are in a free world.
And you have only one option , to adjust ( by doing other products like farming ) or die .  

And something about the environmental stuff .. I do not know what is worst , smoking chimneys of working factories, or to test on your own soil  Nukes ..

Germany has an large car industry , and an heavy industry too ,  they live fine and healthy.  


About me , I am totally unlucky , I had born in a City , that has lots of small metallurgies doing laser cut - water jet cutting, and any way they all working with metals .
And I have as only option if I work as employ to work for them .
Thats why I took the decision , to be always an freelancer Boss of my self .  

 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 09:52:52 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2010, 11:47:44 pm »
Quote
maybe some kind of fixture that dips the board so he can't drop a board in the tank on accident

Not sure dropping is much of a risk - it wouldn't sink, and surface tension means it probably wouldn't splash.
I suspect there is a certain amount of skill in getting the speed and trajectory right for best results, which may be more expensive to replicate  on a machine. 
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