Is this the industial method of mass soldering or cheapo way??

[domm123]

Hi all, take a look at this video:


(_{sorry for those who cannot understand chinese.})

Or is this the reason why chinese pcb are always so ugly looking?

Thanks

[lhc]

That guy soldering like a medieval blacksmith must have a helluva headache from the heat and rosin/tin(lead?!) fumes. Do they have any work safety regulations there? Also nice el cheapo irons - working with that blazing hot handle must be great and don't even mention the soldering quality with those things + optical quality control rules (that girl doesn't see crap after shuffling the boards for few hours).

[Zad]

Yes to both of those questions. It is the industrial method, and it is the cheapo way. What it boils down to is economics unfortunately. Chinese (or Taiwanese, whatever) labour is cheaper than paying umpteen thousand dollah for an insertion machine and a proper wave flow solder system. That means they charge least, and so any manufacturer who puts price above quality (i.e. 99% of them) goes with it. After that, it gets into the morals of industrialisation and fair pay. Sweatshop labour vs no money to feed the kids etc.

It is probably fair to say that if you see any equipment with a PCB that is very warped then it has made using the manual mathod you see at the beginning. Probably no coincidence that these are the ones that tend to be covered in lots of horrible hot melt glue.

Health and safety regulations? Ahahahahahahaha.

[Simon]

yea I second Zad on everything. I'd say and the original poster can probably correct me that this is some sort of company tutorial ?

[Kiriakos-GR]

(_{sorry for those who cannot understand chinese.})

Or is this the reason why chinese pcb are always so ugly looking?

Thanks

I feel sorry for them too , for the ones that they cannot understand Chinese.

Thats an amazing video , presenting the old method of soldering and the problems ,
in comparison with the latest and finest one , with machinery made 100% by the Chinese,
so to support their own production.

Those people they build their own ICs  & theyr own PCB's , and their own industrial tools.
They are unbeatable .. and worthy of congratulations ..

The years that the Unites states with their Silicon Valley , was manipulating the market ,
by selling dirt in the price of gold , are over .

I am unable to forget the amount of money that I have spent over the Motorola MRF317  transistors ...

Its time the market to balance ... and the gain finally to be, at the side of the consumers. 
 

 

[Zad]

Of course, how many times when you order MRF317 from China do you actually get MRF317?

[Rhythmtech]

(_{sorry for those who cannot understand chinese.})

Or is this the reason why chinese pcb are always so ugly looking?

Thanks

I feel sorry for them too , for the ones that they cannot understand Chinese.

Thats an amazing video , presenting the old method of soldering and the problems ,
in comparison with the latest and finest one , with machinery made 100% by the Chinese,
so to support their own production.

Those people they build their own ICs  & theyr own PCB's , and their own industrial tools.
They are unbeatable .. and worthy of congratulations ..

The years that the Unites states with their Silicon Valley , was manipulating the market ,
by selling dirt in the price of gold , are over .

I am unable to forget the amount of money that I have spent over the Motorola MRF317  transistors ...

Its time the market to balance ... and the gain finally to be, at the side of the consumers. 
 

 

John V. Atanasoff - inventor of the digital computer
Jack Kilby - inventor of the integrated circuit
Steve Wozniak among others - pioneers of the home computer
Robert Noyce - cofounder of Intel and integrated circuit pioneer
Harold Stephen Black - Inventor of the negative feedback amplifier
Edwin Howard Armstrong -Inventor of FM radio

I could keep going on...  
If you want to justify unsafe Chinese labor practices because it screws "American Imperialism" over, I am not going condemn you that's your prerogative. However, can you truly say you have not benefited in the least from the labors of Americans?  

The reason the Chinese components are cheaper is that they are not using or using stolen ISO Quality Assurance practices, OSHA is not looking over their shoulder, and they are probably receiving subsidies from their government to continue working under hazardous conditions.  Seems like they might have at least bought the solder tank dude some gloves and eye protection made in China dirt cheap!  

I am trying to respectfully ask you recognize that by insulting Americans you are insulting many engineers who have furthered electronics and helped changed the world for the better.  

[Kiriakos-GR]

Of course, how many times when you order MRF317 from China do you actually get MRF317?

Is it that hard to say that this tree are taler than the next to it , no matter to who belongs.

I am an neutral observer , and I have no problem to admit and describe the truth.

Even so the damn MRF317 they do burn out easily , you did not do your best .. try harder or sell them by the kilo. 

[Kiriakos-GR]

I could keep going on...  
If you want to justify unsafe Chinese labor practices because it screws "American Imperialism" over, I am not going condemn you that's your prerogative. However, can you truly say you have not benefited in the least from the labors of Americans?  

The reason the Chinese components are cheaper is that they are not using or using stolen ISO Quality Assurance practices, OSHA is not looking over their shoulder, and they are probably receiving subsidies from their government to continue working under hazardous conditions.  Seems like they might have at least bought the solder tank dude some gloves and eye protection made in China dirt cheap!  

I am trying to respectfully ask you recognize that by insulting Americans you are insulting many engineers who have furthered electronics and helped changed the world for the better.  

Well  if you continue to insult one billion Chinese people because of your ego , its not an smart idea either.
And as I said and above , I am just an observer ..  but I do not plan to stay silent , so to keep anyones ego happy ..   

[Rhythmtech]

I could keep going on... 
If you want to justify unsafe Chinese labor practices because it screws "American Imperialism" over, I am not going condemn you that's your prerogative. However, can you truly say you have not benefited in the least from the labors of Americans? 

The reason the Chinese components are cheaper is that they are not using or using stolen ISO Quality Assurance practices, OSHA is not looking over their shoulder, and they are probably receiving subsidies from their government to continue working under hazardous conditions.  Seems like they might have at least bought the solder tank dude some gloves and eye protection made in China dirt cheap! 

I am trying to respectfully ask you recognize that by insulting Americans you are insulting many engineers who have furthered electronics and helped changed the world for the better. 

Well  if you continue to insult one billion Chinese people because of your ego , its not an smart idea either.
And as I said and above , I am just an observer ..  but I do not plan to stay silent , so to keep anyones ego happy ..   

I will happily insult Chinese labor practices. They suck. Just because there are a billion of them it does not mean they are right.

UPDATE:  What does my ego have to do with facts?

[jahonen]

When the Chinese eventually get the same consistent quality level than in other countries, we found that their products are just as expensive than what we started with.

Regards,
Janne

[Rhythmtech]

When the Chinese eventually get the same consistent quality level than in other countries, we found that their products are just as expensive than what we started with.

Regards,
Janne

Agreed, in the end it comes down to process and quality assurance. The savings we are seeing now via China will be gone soon, they are seeing almost exponential increases in the pay rates of their work force, Foxconn employees are committing suicide because they lose iPhones, Chinese people wade through oil spills with buckets to perform cleanups, they keep inmates on death row alive until they sell their organs. I am sure there are some bright spots and improving conditions, but it is easy to forget the actual cost of what you are buying when you save on Chinese products.

Gee, I feel a lot less evil being an American. 

[Kiriakos-GR]

UPDATE:  What does my ego have to do with facts?

Ok now that the spirits had calm down , lets speak with facts ...

The video shows 95% the old process and the problems , and the last 5% shows one perfect from any aspect high tech system , that does the job , perfectly with out to cause risk for the human life ,
as it does all the dirty work alone ..  And thats my friend, are an fact !!

[Kiriakos-GR]

I Love Nokia!

I love Sony Ericsson ..    

And I am an official translator of this project..
http://www.fjsoft.at/en/downloads.php





.

[Rhythmtech]

UPDATE:  What does my ego have to do with facts?

Ok now that the spirits had calm down , lets speak with facts ...

The video shows 95% the old process and the problems , and the last 5% shows one perfect from any aspect high tech system , that does the job , perfectly with out to cause risk for the human life ,
as it does all the dirty work alone ..  And thats my friend, are an fact !!

Agreed, those improvements will eventually show up as better quality component with increased prices.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Agreed, those improvements will eventually show up as better quality component with increased prices.

I do not think so ...  
Just less and less people In China, they will continue to work in the electronics production ... as workers.

They will pass slowly from the same steps , that the international industry had pass all ready.
At list they will keep the electricians in place ..  

This sample of one "simple" tachometer , its the proof that they are on the right track.
15 $   ....  with case and battery and shipping  ..  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1010.0

I got that excited that I ordered today and the Ultrasonic Distance Measure Laser Pointer DM220
Just another 16$ ....   I will review it in ten days or so ..  But I know that is perfect the specific one,
I have see it in Europe to be promoted from an German company with their Logo, and it complies to all the European specifications and directives,  I just got my item direct from the source ..  

[PetrosA]

I got that excited that I ordered today and the Ultrasonic Distance Measure Laser Pointer DM220
Just another 16$ ....   I will review it in ten days or so ..  But I know that is perfect the specific one,
I have see it in Europe to be promoted from an German company with their Logo, and it complies to all the European specifications and directives,  I just got my item direct from the source ..  

As long as you only use it in clean air and check your measurements a few times, you might be happy with it I've tried a few ultrasonic distance measurers and none of them worked reliably. I ended up with a Fluke laser measurer (range ~30m, accuracy very high) which is working beyond my expectations. Two thumbs up!

[ArtemisGoldfish]

Not all Chinese fabrication houses are bad, just some of them. For instance, at work we stopped using a certain supplier (I think it was Dragon Display Tech.) because of their poor quality, but we also use companies like Winstar because they actually have quality construction processes.

[tycz]

That guy soldering like a medieval blacksmith must have a helluva headache from the heat and rosin/tin(lead?!) fumes. Do they have any work safety regulations there?

I've done soldering this way (dip method) and I really can't see what the big deal is... What do you do when only need to assemble, say, 500 boards a year and don't want to contract the work out? Buy a big solder pot and start dipping!

[Kiriakos-GR]

I got that excited that I ordered today and the Ultrasonic Distance Measure Laser Pointer DM220
Just another 16$ ....   I will review it in ten days or so ..  But I know that is perfect the specific one,
I have see it in Europe to be promoted from an German company with their Logo, and it complies to all the European specifications and directives,  I just got my item direct from the source ..  

As long as you only use it in clean air and check your measurements a few times, you might be happy with it I've tried a few ultrasonic distance measurers and none of them worked reliably. I ended up with a Fluke laser measurer (range ~30m, accuracy very high) which is working beyond my expectations. Two thumbs up!

Well the one that I got,  looks to have an reliable father .. 
http://www.sinpa.com.cn/about.asp

Product: .. http://www.sinpa.com.cn/products_d.asp?product_id=2

[Rhythmtech]

Agreed, those improvements will eventually show up as better quality component with increased prices.

I do not think so ...  
Just less and less people In China, they will continue to work in the electronics production ... as workers.

They will pass slowly from the same steps , that the international industry had pass all ready.
At list they will keep the electricians in place ..  

This sample of one "simple" tachometer , its the proof that they are on the right track.
15 $   ....  with case and battery and shipping  ..  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1010.0

I got that excited that I ordered today and the Ultrasonic Distance Measure Laser Pointer DM220
Just another 16$ ....   I will review it in ten days or so ..  But I know that is perfect the specific one,
I have see it in Europe to be promoted from an German company with their Logo, and it complies to all the European specifications and directives,  I just got my item direct from the source ..  

I understand, I've bought similar items and have not been unhappy. I own a Uni-T UT603 I am happy with.  Companies all over the world are rebranding Chinese products, providing support which is often poor from the Chinese manufacturer and everyone is profitable and happy. 

I still believe it is not possible for the Chinese to manufacture products responsibly to the same quality standard as Germany, Japan, and the USA  without increasing costs exponentially.  They are already seeing very large increases in the average wage. Complex processes, new machinery, quality assurance, safety, etc....  all cost more to do.  There are many things that also occur which do not make sense environmentally or financially. For example, ore from Australia is shipped to china to be processed into steel then sold and shipped to the USA. This is cheaper because China's environmental laws regarding steel mills are generally lax and their fuel is subsidized by their government so shipping from Australia is cheaper than mining in their own country. None of us care because the prices are too good and the environmental mess is not happening in our backyard. I realize when I buy a Chinese product I am doing it selfishly to save money because there will be repercussions in the future at some point we will all pay for. Either in increased component costs, environmental disasters, or maybe even industrial genocide. If the only value we assign to these things is the savings in our wallet we have reduced too many things to just economy.

[Rhythmtech]

That guy soldering like a medieval blacksmith must have a helluva headache from the heat and rosin/tin(lead?!) fumes. Do they have any work safety regulations there?

I've done soldering this way (dip method) and I really can't see what the big deal is... What do you do when only need to assemble, say, 500 boards a year and don't want to contract the work out? Buy a big solder pot and start dipping!

The dude should have some gloves, maybe some kind of fixture that dips the board so he can't drop a board in the tank on accident and prevents splashing or sloshing, safety glasses or face shield, and if there wasn't one a vent hood sucking out fumes.  Most of these things with the exception of the fixture are on hand and available in 99% of the labs I have seen.

[Simon]

I'm afraid that at the end of the day low costs is the only thing people want. I would happily buy British made stuff for a little more, but are there any British manufacturers ? NO it has all been sold to china. Now who can make the difference ? The government, guess who the government is made of ? business men who only care about making laws for their own businesses and saving a heap of money because it is not enough that they have more than they need already and can spend all day doing nothing but calling each other names and feeling good about them selves and their "right honourable mates and friends"

This whole world is run by money and money alone, get rid of the money and you will greatly reduce the problem but we can't live without it.

[Kiriakos-GR]

I'm afraid that at the end of the day low costs is the only thing people want.

I'm afraid that at the end of the day, some countries  , they will not make income , by producing electronics.
Some countries they will not be called master heads , because they think that they own technology,
as to was an object , or an monopoly that their own..

The Americans use to say .. we are in a free Country ..  well guess what , now you are in a free world.
And you have only one option , to adjust ( by doing other products like farming ) or die .  

And something about the environmental stuff .. I do not know what is worst , smoking chimneys of working factories, or to test on your own soil  Nukes ..

Germany has an large car industry , and an heavy industry too ,  they live fine and healthy.  


About me , I am totally unlucky , I had born in a City , that has lots of small metallurgies doing laser cut - water jet cutting, and any way they all working with metals .
And I have as only option if I work as employ to work for them .
Thats why I took the decision , to be always an freelancer Boss of my self .  

 

[mikeselectricstuff]

maybe some kind of fixture that dips the board so he can't drop a board in the tank on accident

Not sure dropping is much of a risk - it wouldn't sink, and surface tension means it probably wouldn't splash.
I suspect there is a certain amount of skill in getting the speed and trajectory right for best results, which may be more expensive to replicate  on a machine. 

[Simon]

I think you need to see some of this "free world" before you can make many of your sweeping statements

I'm afraid that at the end of the day low costs is the only thing people want.

I'm afraid that at the end of the day, some countries  , they will not make income , by producing electronics.
Some countries they will not be called master heads , because they think that they own technology,
as to was an object , or an monopoly that their own..

The Americans use to say .. we are in a free Country ..  well guess what , now you are in a free world.
And you have only one option , to adjust ( by doing other products like farming ) or die .  

And something about the environmental stuff .. I do not know what is worst , smoking chimneys of working factories, or to test on your own soil  Nukes ..

Germany has an large car industry , and an heavy industry too ,  they live fine and healthy.  


About me , I am totally unlucky , I had born in a City , that has lots of small metallurgies doing laser cut - water jet cutting, and any way they all working with metals .
And I have as only option if I work as employ to work for them .
Thats why I took the decision , to be always an freelancer Boss of my self .  

 

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well  about the "free world sweeping statement ",  it represents the ability of making electronics worldwide.

Currently we have limit our view to the very small scale of electronics, like small handhold devices .

With my industrial eye glasses ,  I have see for example, the Bystronic brand , that does large scale laser cutting machines , or many ultra complex CNC solutions ...

There is out there , one " free world "  building  or better said .. making miracles.
But most of them are for the manufacturing production.

One simple PCB soldering bath , its not the major example , so to tell of what are happening in the all planet.  




Now I am going to get some supplies , I will spent the weekend next to the sea (last weekend of my vacations) , we have 37-40C in this corner of the "free world "  

 

[saturation]

Although China is growing fast, a huge segment of its populace live in poverty levels, by western standards.  Here is the UN's human development index:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index



Soldering this way, and potentially getting a toxic pneumonia and getting seriously ill years later is probably preferable to being jobless, starving and dying in days.  Getting such folks employed at least, is probably their government's priority, thus the plethora of low cost labor.

Its not far an offshoot of the method they use to desolder in recycling:





then after a hard day of work, get some water to drink with electronics flavoring:

[Simon]

yep, all of the so called recycling is done in the worst of conditions and is not exactly eco-friendly

[Mechatrommer]

you people are so lucky to be living in a well developed and "pampered" country.
@saturation: i dont think they will use the water for drinking, in the last picture.
only stupid or lazy people (or goverment) will do that, instead of making effort to find a clear water.
this thing more involve in goverment policy and how they treat their citizen... and business. IMHO.

[Mechatrommer]

United States is a big country, but the government still facing the economic problem, same thing to other big countries, and the same to smaller countries including us. Its just an utter bullshit for me. The only logic that i can accept is The Rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer. maybe i wander off topic a bit

[Simon]

United States is a big country, but the government still facing the economic problem, same thing to other big countries, and the same to smaller countries including us. Its just an utter bullshit for me. The only logic that i can accept is The Rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer. maybe i wander off topic a bit

no bang on topic and that is the way it is, the world is about making more money than you need just because you can, any human being ultimately wants power but few know what to do with that power except ruin the lives of his fellow human beings who are probably far superior to him but for all his useless money

[Kiriakos-GR]

United States is a big country

Its only the 3% of the global population .. this is called "small" as number.

And in order to return in the on topic mode , I will say that the primary subject had be answered .

And if some one likes to continue to do propaganda , he must show to us , and some pictures,
from the homeless in New York , and from where they drink water !!  or eat !!

[Simon]

United States is a big country

Its only the 3% of the global population .. this is called "small" as number.

And in order to return in the on topic mode , I will say that the primary subject had be answered .

And if some one likes to continue to do propaganda , he must show to us , and some pictures,
from the homeless in New York , and from where they drink water !!  or eat !!

well you can speak last, your the one that advocates Chinese products because they are CHEAP, if we didn't buy Chinese those people that your so fast to point out that don't have jobs and live on the streets of a country in debt might be in work and helping the country have an export and get out of debt !!!

[Rhythmtech]

United States is a big country

Its only the 3% of the global population .. this is called "small" as number.

And in order to return in the on topic mode , I will say that the primary subject had be answered .

And if some one likes to continue to do propaganda , he must show to us , and some pictures,
from the homeless in New York , and from where they drink water !!  or eat !!

I think your contrast of homelessness to economic conditions is a bad benchmark. If the economy is bad and nobody has a lot of money, then the market should adjust to the lowered incomes. This only becomes a problem in economies with the very rich and the very poor.

Us 3% seem to still be outproducing the 97% of the others, what gives? We consume more because we make more. So the Chinese are catching up because they are industrious, some of us disagree with their methods and hope they will improve.  Competition is healthy, I welcome it. Has the EU not done nothing for Greece and let them spiral further into economic hardship? Is China going to save Greece?

[Kiriakos-GR]

Is China going to save Greece?

I do not see why not , we both have 5.000 years of history, and we both respect its other..  

[Simon]

you really do talk a load of tosh (rubbish)!, if you want to know about the wonderful relationship between an EU country and china just look at the bloody mess the UK is in, with no more jobs (all gone to china) no more manufacturing (gone to china) and no pride in our country because we all know what a dump it has become

[Kiriakos-GR]

and no pride in our country because we all know what a dump it has become

Well I am trying hard , to keep my coarse on this post " on topic " ,
and I also know that your version of the story,
has political  roots ...  so put on a hot pan with boiling oil , your politicians ..
And let the hard workers in China , to enjoy an hot piece of bread.
They getting it with an honest way, and they worth it. 

They have politicians , that they do not hang out with the wrong people.

[Simon]

and is it the fault of the people that our politicians are corrupt (all of the EU and rest of the world actually) ?

Chinese politicians don't hang out with the wrong people ? if we did not want to buy so cheap they would have a better standard of living. if the chinese government wanted a good quality of life for its people it would establish a minimum wage, but I bet it did not, why ? so they can make stuff cheap and sell it to us, if they were paid a decent wage we would find it cheaper to have it made here in our own countries. (remember transport costs)

I worked for a man once in Italy who wanted to source clothes and other like stuff from china and india, and it was one big merry go round of crap products for pennies and most companies not having a catalogue because all they did was "photocopy" your sample, we got samples from one company of towels and the logo on it was for a client of the man i was working for ! the only objective in chinese manufacture is how much money can the company owner make, oh wait, doesn't this sound familiar yea it's what the countries of the EU and the rest of the world do too.

Chinese politicians don't hang out with the wrong people ? what do you think our politicians are who they meet to strike trade deals with

Really kiriakos your line of perspective is truly bent, I suggest you buy a new ruler, we all live together in this mess, your either a worker being ripped off or a politician/company owner (most politicians own companies and make sure the laws made are good for them !)

[Kiriakos-GR]

Really kiriakos your line of perspective is truly bent, I suggest you buy a new ruler, we all live together in this mess, your either a worker being ripped off or a politician/company owner (most politicians own companies and make sure the laws made are good for them !)

My ruler are fine , and no,  we are not together ,  my country was under occupation for 400 years under the Turks ...  And No one moved a finger to help my nation,  we become free again by spieling our own blood .
One small nation of lunatics against the Turkish empire ..

And we won !!

Do you know what ? ... your simple financial problems ... are the pain of an splinter in a finger,
in front of the damage, that the occupation and the war had cause to my nation ...

Greece is the mother of all the west civilization ...
It should be safe guarded by every west nation world wide, its the primary source of any knowledge and science.

Since the moment that any true worthy human value , has no value against money , I do not care about any one too.   

So let my ruler alone ..   

[Simon]

your quibbling about something that happened before nations even knew each other, you know damn well that your trying to make a non point. as for financial problems I the EU just bailed you out didn't they ? some gratitude, I hope england never gets into the euro and learns to be strong and stand alone. If you want to quote history think of the enormous effort Britain put into WW2 for a great part standing alone to get rid of the nazi's, but these things are best left alone and they are more recent than the incidents you refer to. I'll remind you, it s the year 2010 not 1710

[RayJones]

The surest way to make enemies is to argue on forums about race/religion/politics.

This *international* forum here is for neither, so please cease and desist, I've certainly had enough of the dribble. 

[Simon]

The surest way to make enemies is to argue on forums about race/religion/politics.

This *international* forum here is for neither, so please cease and desist, I've certainly had enough of the dribble. 

good idea

[Kiriakos-GR]

The surest way to make enemies is to argue on forums about race/religion/politics.

Yes , if we ever do that , we will follow your suggestion  ..

I am talking with historical facts , if you are unable to do the discrimination,
you are off topic .  
 
The historical facts , are our past , we learn from it , we evaluate it , and we try to not make the same mistakes.

And one last thing ,  Simon are one fine Man , and I love his passioned way of expression ,
and what I hate , are anything pathetic.  

[Simon]

The surest way to make enemies is to argue on forums about race/religion/politics.

Yes , if we ever do that , we will follow your suggestion  ..

I am talking with historical facts , if you are unable to do the discrimination,
you are off topic .  
 
The historical facts , are our past , we learn from it , we evaluate it , and we try to not make the same mistakes.

And one last thing ,  Simon are one fine Man , and I love his passioned way of expression ,
and what I hate , are anything pathetic.  

Like you I either say what I think or shut up 

[Rhythmtech]

None of this is in hate or malice of any person or country. What recourse do we have for our frustrations if we can't talk about them with our peers. 

I for one would gladly have beers with anyone on this forum who disagrees with me.  I am happy there is a place to talk about what I believe and hear about what others believe. Some times emotionally based retorts seep in, but that's why there is forgiveness and understanding - people screw up and need it.  Anger is a normal response which is sometimes not easily filtered, we all benefit from learning how to talk about difficult topics among those whom we feel understand us best. 

I am beginning to understand Kiriakos point of view better, but never would have, had it not been for this thread.  I still do not agree with him, but definitely respect him more and would hope if I ever make it to Greece to meet him. 

[Simon]

Well we all get to know our own history and our own culture best and it is easy to misunderstand we are all in the same mess

[Kiriakos-GR]

I am beginning to understand Kiriakos point of view better, but never would have, had it not been for this thread.  I still do not agree with him, but definitely respect him more and would hope if I ever make it to Greece to meet him. 

Well , if I did not had an inner kick about making international relations , I would not be here in the first place.
I had grow up with the principal to be always Justice and always speak the truth.
Thats an costly behavior , but I prefer it , than act an fake character , lovable but fake.

Get the Beers, I will bring the burgers ..  and Simon will bring the girls ..       

[Simon]

girls ? what are, girls ? hm no sorry can't help there mate   

[Kiriakos-GR]

No problem .
An party for monks , sounds good too .   

[Simon]

Well I'm no monk just err, to honest and not fake enough to attract girls 

[ThunderSqueak]

Well I'm no monk just err, to honest and not fake enough to attract girls 

Isn't that what a monk is?

[Kiriakos-GR]

Isn't that what a monk is?

Nop ... I hate too ... to sell fairy tails , so to become  attractive to Girls.
 
So, Simon does have my understanding on that .. 

[Simon]

Well I'm no monk just err, to honest and not fake enough to attract girls 

Isn't that what a monk is?

ooooh, well i'm not a monk, it's just that girls in the UK seem to prefer jerks or blokes with money, having a brain and being a hard worker with dreams aint enough dear 

[Rhythmtech]

Well, when most guys are single mindedly attempting to disrobe women, us nerds are practicing global peace and hanging out on forums...
All I can say is that I got lucky with my woman!

[Simon]

hehe, somehow i seem to find perfect women that are not interested in me or anyone, jumping from Italy to England did not help as i know precious few people and from the sort of people i see around me (chav's) I'd not want to know most of them.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well on my side of the planet , the Girls haves an technical problem,
in the process to liberate them selfs ... they got new cars with credit and monthly payments.
The cash that they get are an specific amount , not enough for easy life and car payments.

So they have ended to hide in their homes , doing savings ..

So their wild liberation plan , become their trap .. Probably they will start looking for a man,
after the seven years payments plan , when they will be fat and ugly ..   

[Simon]

yea that's about how it works here I guess. I think the problem in the UK is the larger part of the populous are chav's and they are not my kind. many seem to get a bloke very quickly and have children very quickly and then moan later they are not happy in their partnership, I think abundant benefits paid by the government to mothers has something to do with this rush to get a bloke and have kids, at 27 I'm a bit late on the scene.

[ThunderSqueak]

yea that's about how it works here I guess. I think the problem in the UK is the larger part of the populous are chav's and they are not my kind. many seem to get a bloke very quickly and have children very quickly and then moan later they are not happy in their partnership, I think abundant benefits paid by the government to mothers has something to do with this rush to get a bloke and have kids, at 27 I'm a bit late on the scene.

The flip side of this is being female, and having a brain... intimidates men for some reason.  Most people , at work when I first meet them, assume I am the secretary.  Gets old after a while... 

I had a few of my tech's not believe me about how people treat women in my field.  roughly 90% of the clients (both male and female), will turn and talk to a male tech(or even the janitor) if they walk out after I have been answering questions.  I can continue answering, but they wont even look at me, and will phrase the questions towards the male tech. 

Basically this


anyway, I felt like ranting a little bit. 

Now if I can just find a cute guy who I have something in common with, and who has some ambition, I would be set

</hijack>
</rant>

[Simon]

yea that's about how it works here I guess. I think the problem in the UK is the larger part of the populous are chav's and they are not my kind. many seem to get a bloke very quickly and have children very quickly and then moan later they are not happy in their partnership, I think abundant benefits paid by the government to mothers has something to do with this rush to get a bloke and have kids, at 27 I'm a bit late on the scene.

Now if I can just find a cute guy who I have something in common with, and who has some ambition, I would be set

</hijack>
</rant>

Fancy moving to the UK  

or is it worth moving to Alaska  

Yea i can see that a female tech is something most men can't handle (most are after all dick heads and stupid) I've always gotten on better with the "tomboy" type, maybe something to do with my ultimate [practicality in all things in my life.

Now let me see this is the 3rd aspect this topic has taken - interesting

[Mechatrommer]

hmm. diversed topic. from soldering in china, to political and historical view, to the girls... hmm. if anyone can post a picture

[Kiriakos-GR]

hmm. diversed topic. from soldering in china, to political and historical view, to the girls... hmm. if anyone can post a picture

Yes here it is , my picture from my last attempt to have long hair ,  last October or so.    


.

[Simon]

that's cheating 

[ThunderSqueak]

hmm. diversed topic. from soldering in china, to political and historical view, to the girls... hmm. if anyone can post a picture

post a picture of what?

[Simon]

hmm. diversed topic. from soldering in china, to political and historical view, to the girls... hmm. if anyone can post a picture

post a picture of what?

hehe maybe best not ask for the details 

[Mechatrommer]

hmm. diversed topic. from soldering in china, to political and historical view, to the girls... hmm. if anyone can post a picture

post a picture of what?

whatever you wanna show (that you think is not private), i'll be glad to see like kiriakos "rambo" hair but i guess should be related to the discussion to avoid another angry guy ranting about political issue. i hate to read long story without a picture.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Oups I missed that .... the logo on the picture translates to ... Hello comrade Rambo .. an salutation..

As about our coin it does have two sides, and its wise both to be known , at the end , anyone will make his own mind , by examining both of them .

This is what we do , we get informations , we examine them , and we make our mind about anything that we care.

Some people , when they dislike an subject , they baptized it as political or what ever,
so to limit the size of the conversation.
I am from the people , that they do not tolerate such diplomatic games.

I am more than happy , that we found an chance to socialize a bit, even after the small battlefield 

Lets let this thread to die in peace .. 



 


 

[Simon]

I am more than happy , that we found an chance to socialize a bit, even after the small battlefield 

Lets let this thread to die in peace ..  


 

aw it was just getting to be fun (the last diversion from the original topic  )

[Kiriakos-GR]

aw it was just getting to be fun (the last diversion from the original topic  )

I agree ...     

I got Imagine the countries of the participants ( of the off topic part) as marks and lines ... Starting from the Australia going to Africa , then passing to Greece , getting upper to England , and finishes up north to Alaska.

We are all part of this chain , and I am thankful for the existence of the Internet,
because it can do this amazing connections .. 

   

[Simon]

Yea I have a friend in America, I met him online and then I met him for real, amazing never thought I would.

[Bored@Work]

The flip side of this is being female, and having a brain... intimidates men for some reason.  Most people , at work when I first meet them, assume I am the secretary.  Gets old after a while... 

Just had to register to say a few words.

As a male I happen to work for a Scandinavian hi tech engineering company  Most things are the same in that company, e.g., mediocre pay, stupid bureaucracy, never enough time to do a job right, never the right tools, ... Some are different. One thing different is the high female rate. No one would assume a female is the secretary. Those that do never come back. And my current "office administrator" is a guy.

What is apparent is that females do the same tricks as males. When your job is to lead a group, or when you are a technical expert in some area, it is expected that you show some "presence". You are supposed to stand your ground, independent of female or male. If you enter a room to meet the group you lead, you "fill" the room, you don't just sneak in. When your area of expertise is discussed you show who's the leader of the pack by controlling the discussion.

Another thing different is the old "don't f*ck in the company" isn't observed. A good bunch of my colleagues are in a relation with colleagues. They don't hide it, don't have to and no one cares or makes a fuss. I have attended at least a dozen marriage ceremonies of colleagues marring colleagues. Couples work on the same projects if they want, couples take up assignments to another branch or country together.

The only thing the company really cares about is to make sure there are no relations between supervisors and subordinates. When this happens it isn't fixed the usual way by firing one or both. Instead the subordinate is just moved to another group. HR does that routinely, without making a fuss. They expect they get told by those in such a relation, as opposite to having to find out. I won't be surprised if there is a special form for this. The company likes forms of all sorts.

BTW, what the company doesn't have is a special program to promote females. The female engineers and female managers would stage a riot is something like that would be started.

I had a few of my tech's not believe me about how people treat women in my field.  roughly 90% of the clients (both male and female), will turn and talk to a male tech(or even the janitor) if they walk out after I have been answering questions.  I can continue answering, but they wont even look at me, and will phrase the questions towards the male tech. 

This is an issue with your male tech's. Can you train them to direct the people back to you, instead of answering?

Now if I can just find a cute guy who I have something in common with, and who has some ambition, I would be set

Our host has some advice on this

http://www.artofinternetdating.com/

No joke, this is our very own Dave writing a whole book about Internet dating ...

[Simon]

The flip side of this is being female, and having a brain... intimidates men for some reason.  Most people , at work when I first meet them, assume I am the secretary.  Gets old after a while... 

Just had to register to say a few words.

As a male I happen to work for a Scandinavian hi tech engineering company  Most things are the same in that company, e.g., mediocre pay, stupid bureaucracy, never enough time to do a job right, never the right tools, ... Some are different. One thing different is the high female rate. No one would assume a female is the secretary. Those that do never come back. And my current "office administrator" is a guy.

What is apparent is that females do the same tricks as males. When your job is to lead a group, or when you are a technical expert in some area, it is expected that you show some "presence". You are supposed to stand your ground, independent of female or male. If you enter a room to meet the group you lead, you "fill" the room, you don't just sneak in. When your area of expertise is discussed you show who's the leader of the pack by controlling the discussion.

Another thing different is the old "don't f*ck in the company" isn't observed. A good bunch of my colleagues are in a relation with colleagues. They don't hide it, don't have to and no one cares or makes a fuss. I have attended at least a dozen marriage ceremonies of colleagues marring colleagues. Couples work on the same projects if they want, couples take up assignments to another branch or country together.

The only thing the company really cares about is to make sure there are no relations between supervisors and subordinates. When this happens it isn't fixed the usual way by firing one or both. Instead the subordinate is just moved to another group. HR does that routinely, without making a fuss. They expect they get told by those in such a relation, as opposite to having to find out. I won't be surprised if there is a special form for this. The company likes forms of all sorts.

BTW, what the company doesn't have is a special program to promote females. The female engineers and female managers would stage a riot is something like that would be started.

I had a few of my tech's not believe me about how people treat women in my field.  roughly 90% of the clients (both male and female), will turn and talk to a male tech(or even the janitor) if they walk out after I have been answering questions.  I can continue answering, but they wont even look at me, and will phrase the questions towards the male tech. 

This is an issue with your male tech's. Can you train them to direct the people back to you, instead of answering?

Now if I can just find a cute guy who I have something in common with, and who has some ambition, I would be set

Our host has some advice on this

http://www.artofinternetdating.com/

No joke, this is our very own Dave writing a whole book about Internet dating ...

right I'm moving to scandinavia !!!

yea what you tell sounds very sensible, I can't see why there should be a problem, I think it is an american thing about not dating co-workers. sure it can complicate things and as you say the only real necessity is to not have supervisor and subordinates working together who also are partners.

[Kiriakos-GR]

right I'm moving to scandinavia !!!

I believe that your DNA it will strongly disagree , with you ...      
But I give you about three months survival time up there , before you start running back,
at more hotter climates .. 

[Simon]

well I had to adapt from England to Italy and then from Italy to England again 

[Kiriakos-GR]

well I had to adapt from England to Italy and then from Italy to England again 

Thats no "biggy"  , all that you have to do , its to not get mad with rain .. 

[Simon]

oh no it's official, the English people are the coldest on the planet, we are having a social ice age here, find new friends has been VERY hard even with the help of social clubs (Rotaract), as for rain it rains in Italy as much as it does in the UK now and the weather is as variable (global warming is after all global)

[Mechatrommer]

man! there is really no more talking on mass soldering. i'm planning to build my own hot plate/oven controllable temp profile through arduino as a cheaper way for my own "home" mass soldering/reflow.
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=59&page=

or even the automatic paste dispenser (if i got time and need):


sorry to interrupt your "intimate" conversation pals

[Simon]

Yea getting back to topic after a lovely digression.

How do they mass solder SMD parts ? and how do they do both ?

[jahonen]

Yea getting back to topic after a lovely digression.

How do they mass solder SMD parts ? and how do they do both ?

If there are only SMD components, then it is usually a reflow process. First, paste is put through stencil and then pick and place machine places components. Then the board is reflowed in oven. If there are both through-hole and SMD components (SMDs on one side only), SMD components are usually assembled using previously mentioned process. Then after the board has cooled down, through hole components are placed and the board is wave soldered (like shown in video in start post of this topic) from bottom side. In civilized countries boards are not manually dipped in solder but soldered using a machine. It is also possible to wave solder SMD components but only ones with loose pitch, like SO's, passives or discretes. In that case, one must glue the SMD's to bottom of the board so that they will stick to the board during wave soldering process. This glue is dispensed in same way than soldering paste.

There are of course variations of these processes, like "paste-in-hole" (where you can actually solder a through-hole components with reflow). If there are dense pitch components or BGAs in both sides of the board, then two sided reflow process is a necessity.

Regards,
Janne

[Simon]

so you can stick the SMD parts in molten solder and it won't affect them ?

[jahonen]

so you can stick the SMD parts in molten solder and it won't affect them ?

Yes, as long as the temperature profile is respected, i.e. not too long in hot solder. There are also restrictions how many times components will survive the soldering thermal cycle. That can be a limitation if you need to do more than one reflow.

Regards,
Janne

[Simon]

and would another method be putting solder past on the board, placing the part on it and blowing hot air over to melt the solder ?

[ThunderSqueak]

I had a few of my tech's not believe me about how people treat women in my field.  roughly 90% of the clients (both male and female), will turn and talk to a male tech(or even the janitor) if they walk out after I have been answering questions.  I can continue answering, but they wont even look at me, and will phrase the questions towards the male tech.

This is an issue with your male tech's. Can you train them to direct the people back to you, instead of answering?

They actually do direct the conversation back AND remain quiet, the issue is just the way American culture works.  

and now back to the topic :>


A reflow toaster    refloaster 

[Simon]

I had a few of my tech's not believe me about how people treat women in my field.  roughly 90% of the clients (both male and female), will turn and talk to a male tech(or even the janitor) if they walk out after I have been answering questions.  I can continue answering, but they wont even look at me, and will phrase the questions towards the male tech.

This is an issue with your male tech's. Can you train them to direct the people back to you, instead of answering?

 

and now back to the topic :>


A reflow toaster    refloaster 

Back to topic ? which of the four topics ? ah yes soldering, yea great name for it, I think I'll be soldering ironing for some time

[Kiriakos-GR]

A reflow toaster    refloaster 

Nop  ...  I do not think so , specially with solder that contains silver ...
I did some hand soldering  with ANTEX solder + 3% silver , and my solder station at full power,
was just powerful enough so to keep me working.
Never had an issue with common solder... ever . 

 

[TheDirty]

Our host has some advice on this

http://www.artofinternetdating.com/

No joke, this is our very own Dave writing a whole book about Internet dating ...

I think this was missed in the chatter.  This is hilarious.  We need some history on this from Dave.

[Kiriakos-GR]

A reflow toaster    refloaster 

nice! i'm thinking of building somthing like this, but bigger that it can reflow 3-5 boards at once. but when the time comes.

Found it for you ....   

[shodan]

thanks to non-western contributors for sharing their points of view in this thread !

after seeing both sides of "outsourcing"
I think I can fairly say that both sides have interesting misconceptions about each other, but we clearly aren't all that different afterall ...

and I was thinking of getting that tiny solder pot for de-soldering parts off of electronics I scrounge for parts
I bet I can modify it to have better temperature controls
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Brand-new-LEAD-FREE-SOLDERING-POT-100W-CM360A-compact-/280263995187?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

oh and not meaning to put some oil on the smoldering fire but I think most westerners who have issues with china manufacturing is that some chinese companies are stealing R&D from western companies and without having to pay for it they can undercut the western company, this situation cannot go on forever, either chinese companies will have to do and pay R&D for themselves or western R&D companies will stop doing R&D?!

[DJPhil]

and I was thinking of getting that tiny solder pot for de-soldering parts off of electronics I scrounge for parts
I bet I can modify it to have better temperature controls
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Brand-new-LEAD-FREE-SOLDERING-POT-100W-CM360A-compact-/280263995187?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

My first instinct would be to advise against a solder pot for scrounging. It would be awkward with boards that had SMT stuff on both sides (something's probably going to wind up slag in the pot), and a real challenge to use for more than a few parts at a go. I'd normally recommend a good vacuum desoldering setup, as they're surpisingly fast and flexible.

However, I must say, the price is awfully low on this one. Most of the setups I've seen before (haven't shopped around much) are edging near $200US to get set up, and for that price I'd definitely go with a vacuum system. At $35US delivered plus metal it might be worth a try!

If you do, please let us know how it goes, I'm always looking for better ways to salvage.

[Simon]

Our host has some advice on this

http://www.artofinternetdating.com/

No joke, this is our very own Dave writing a whole book about Internet dating ...

I think this was missed in the chatter.  This is hilarious.  We need some history on this from Dave.

yea I've known about it for a while but been to busy to look into it. oh well got a message from a girl on a dating site so hey never know but I'm not holding out much hope. I think internet dating has become a bit of a joke lately (unless of course you want to break the bank on all the pro sites)

[Kiriakos-GR]

oh and not meaning to put some oil on the smoldering fire but I think most westerners who have issues with china manufacturing is that some chinese companies are stealing R&D from western companies and without having to pay for it they can undercut the western company, this situation cannot go on forever, either chinese companies will have to do and pay R&D for themselves or western R&D companies will stop doing R&D?!

Finally some fresh oil !!    

The stealing .... its an myth ...  Greece had offer so much to this planet as knowledge ,
and nothing was patented  or limited ....  The Greeks did the R&D , and they gave it as gift to any one.

If you are looking to find the ways of how the  " western R&D " (if there is such a thing) .... traveled to China ,
ask all the American  corporations , who moved their business  down to China ..  
And they are still there !!

And something last,  generally speaking  about R&D  , this is no " national goods "  or "national treasure" ..
Its clearly knowledge in a human head .
Where the human goes , his knowledge follows .

There is 8.000 Greeks teachers and professors , teaching in the American schools and university's as we speak.
NASA, has people from all over the planet , working for them  doing  R&D.

Every one can pay any one, to move and do  R&D for him ...

And as last ,  I do not think that  one billion of people, are that stupid , to need any western  R&D ,
as technological support..

 

[Simon]

what is R&D ?

By the way where the hell is everyone ? (apart from trying to copy others designs...) today has been well quiet on here

[marianoapp]

Research and Development?

[ThunderSqueak]

what is R&D ?

By the way where the hell is everyone ? (apart from trying to copy others designs...) today has been well quiet on here

Research and Development.  

Stealing ideas happens all the time ...  


It is my day off and I have been in bed until noon   it felt nice not having to run anywhere.  

Here is a weird bit of history,  from about 1922

Philo T Farnsworth is said to be the inventor of television.  He was a Rigby resident while he formulated his ideas about the electronic transmission of images.  This was before RCA "aquired" (stole?) it.  They have a whole museum there dedicated to television.

[Simon]

and the local Rotary club are involved i see ?

[ThunderSqueak]

and the local Rotary club are involved i see ?

Yeah, Rotary is everywhere.  Even up here in Alaska.  I have donated to fund raisers for them (usually laptops for auction) and as a result we have several new parks and equipment as well as other projects

[Simon]

and the local Rotary club are involved i see ?

Yeah, Rotary is everywhere.  Even up here in Alaska.  I have donated to fund raisers for them (usually laptops for auction) and as a result we have several new parks and equipment as well as other projects

I'm a member of Rotaract which is a 18-30's social club sponsored by Rotary (although it's shameful the amount of people that assume Rotaract is Rotary  even my spell checkers refuse to recognise it  ), We have 3 Rotary clubs locally

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well I am an Free and lonely cowboy , my name are Looky look..

If I feel lonely, I ride my Doly ..   

And I stay away of Clubs with suspicious background.   

About 28 years back, that I was an boy scout,
one teacher in the school told me that I am participating ,
on a Masons organization .... and this because the Founder in UK , had such believes..

Well , I had choose to stay away, and free from anything , that gives the wrong impressions.
I am social enough to break the ICE and meet new people , when ever I feel like. 

 

[Simon]

If I feel lonely, I ride my Doly ..   



 

spare us the details please 

Unfortunately as said above the UK is an unsociable abyss, in that respect I do miss Italy where even someone who hated your guts would have enough moral conviction to help you if you are in real trouble.

Rotaract clubs are great fun and really like any social club it is what the members make it, we are one of the most successful and vibrant clubs in our area due to the fact that having met through the club we are all great friends and would be so even without the club

[Rhythmtech]

The stealing .... its an myth ...  Greece had offer so much to this planet as knowledge ,
and nothing was patented  or limited ....  The Greeks did the R&D , and they gave it as gift to any one.

I have run several tests on copied products for competitive analysis that were blatant copies of the products of the company I work for.  I have met the engineers who came up with the original design and inquired how they came up with it.  Usually they just shrug their shoulders at the copy and point out the finer points of what they missed in copying it. Not all the companies that copied products were Chinese so it is not only their fault. 

Benjamin Franklin made many inventions and purposefully did not patent any of them and freely distributed them for the gain of all people.

Honestly, if I were Chinese I would be trying to copy the high quality, well designed, and well made products of everyone else in the world, it only makes sense to.  We've all copied something in a design, I am sure you don't reinvent your own version of a Schmitt trigger every time you need one. You still pay more to get a high quality product.  The only difference now is that Chinese products are cheap not because they are made in China but because they are designed as such. China has made a completely new market in the world - the "ultra cheap, good enough most of the time, cut a few corners" products market by copying the likeness of successful designs.

Outsourcing is not the Chinese fault. In my opinion the world is using the Chinese to stave off economic depression by offsetting inflation.  I cannot see it lasting forever though and it seems as if we are all ignoring that some day the bill will come due for everyone. Unsafe work environments and poor quality control won't matter to anyone until they are forced to deal with them themselves. Nobody is immune to what they are willing to accept for others.

[Simon]

The stealing .... its an myth ...  Greece had offer so much to this planet as knowledge ,
and nothing was patented  or limited ....  The Greeks did the R&D , and they gave it as gift to any one.

Outsourcing is not the Chinese fault. In my opinion the world is using the Chinese to stave off economic depression by offsetting inflation.  I cannot see it lasting forever though and it seems as if we are all ignoring that some day the bill will come due for everyone. Unsafe work environments and poor quality control won't matter to anyone until they are forced to deal with them themselves. Nobody is immune to what they are willing to accept for others.

you hit the nail on the head. you account of "faultfinding" on copies reminds me of a crap product we bought at work, not that it was a copy but obviously done on the cheap by an incompetent person and i picked up many "fine points" of circuit design which naturally went right over my work places heads.

Yes the ultimate problem with the chinese is they have no care for quality, but at the end of the day it is OUR fault for buying from them !

how much was your mattress ? out of the factory it was £10 !

[Kiriakos-GR]

Honestly, if I were Chinese I would be trying to copy the high quality

Some people they forget how the game began ....

Europe started to be the technological leader ...  " industrial revolution "  no more horses .. engines..
Cars industry .... electric appliances ... electronics ..   
Then the Japanese got in the game  by copying anything  at 1970 ,
Korea  joined in the dance .... Malaysia  Taiwan  ... and now China ...

Its like some one to give and take back ,  an wave of pleasure as "Good morning",  and an wave of pain as "goodbye"   ( the profits of the generated technology ) .

The only one who had left outside of this peculiar dance around the Globe are India.
 

[Simon]

don't worry india are churning out cheap high quality clothing that comes "pre ripped"

[Rhythmtech]

Honestly, if I were Chinese I would be trying to copy the high quality

Some people they forget how the game began ....

Europe started to be the technological leader ...  " industrial revolution "  no more horses .. engines..
Cars industry .... electric appliances ... electronics ..   
Then the Japanese got in the game  by copying anything  at 1970 ,
Korea  joined in the dance .... Malaysia  Taiwan  ... and now China ...

Its like some one to give and take back ,  an wave of pleasure as "Good morning",  and an wave of pain as "goodbye"   ( the profits of the generated technology ) .

The only one who had left outside of this peculiar dance around the Globe are India.
 

With Intel having a design center in India, the huge Info Tech training centers, call centers for the whole world, etc.. How are they being left out?

Their biggest export at one point was people and they certainly have infiltrated the Information technologies development and design sector in force. 

While in school I used books published specifically for the India training and education markets dubbed "International Versions" or "Developing Country version" printed by American Publishers, that were about 1/4 of the cost of buying the US version which were identical except the international version had a soft cover and not as nice paper. Basically, if I was buying the books available at my school book store I was helping fund cheaper education overseas. So we American students were shouldering the costs of publication of books to educate people in the rest of the world. The publishers even sued but lost because the content was the same so a copyright did not apply.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Please make me the favor to not pronounce what INTEL and MICROSOFT does as education..

This " Knowledge "  becomes obsolete , in just few months ..

But anything that you have learn from Pythagoras in math , still stands...  for about 5000 years and still goes.

[Simon]

well I'm afraid that if it was not for intel and microsoft we'd not be having this discussion ! unless Pythagoras also invented computers and the internet in Greece !

[Kiriakos-GR]

well I'm afraid that if it was not for intel and microsoft we'd not be having this discussion ! unless Pythagoras also invented computers and the internet in Greece !

Do not go there ...    

Antikythera mechanism  This model has data logging , our next model will have and USB port 
 

[Simon]

somehow I was expecting something like that  very clever, but mines bigger than yours  : Stonehenge

[Kiriakos-GR]

clever, but mines bigger than yours  : Stonehenge

This phrase  " but mines bigger than yours "  keeps this planet running  

If we did not had this little portion of ego to motivate as , we would all sleeping under the trees all day ,
with out passion for anything..    

And talking about size , Egypt has it larger ...     ( Pyramids )  

[Rhythmtech]

Please make me the favor to not pronounce what INTEL and MICROSOFT does as education..

This " Knowledge "  becomes obsolete , in just few months ..

But anything that you have learn from Pythagoras in math , still stands...  for about 5000 years and still goes.

I think you misunderstood. I mentioned Intel as an example of how the resources of India's cheap labor is used much the same way China is.

I think the world does enough to recognize Greece for its contributions to law, math, science, and civilization, do you not agree? Everyone learns a^2 + b^2 = c^2 in math here and the contributions of Plato and Aristotle and how pi was determined using Euclid's method. Many words in our languages have words based on the Greek language.

[Simon]

I think it is widely taihgt in schools the part that greece played in getting civilization off the ground so kiriakos can relax on that and stop acting like we don't know Greece exists

[Kiriakos-GR]

I think you misunderstood. I mentioned Intel as an example of how the resources of India's cheap labor is used much the same way China is.

The word "cheap labor"  its an financial generic term, not necessarily an bad thing.

If I can live  in Greece , with one dollar per day as earning , and all my bills be payed too,
this is an bless ..  

I think the world does enough to recognize Greece for its contributions to law, math, science, and civilization, do you not agree?

1) I agree that in the class room , if you do not kiss the ass of Plato and Aristotle , you do not get an diploma.

2) I agree that in your own life , with out this base of knowledge , you will be always working at loading trucks , never an job in an office.

3) I agree that , if you master this knowledge , you can become an top ranked person.

4) I agree that when you become an such " top ranked person " , you forget easily who made you,
who was your sources ,  and you act by your pure ego.

There is no logical explanation to me , how its possible all this top rank people ,
highly educated bankers , to enjoying  so much  , to see the world becoming dust ,  from their actions ..

My bottom sentence are that the knowledge coming from Greeks,
its an lethal weapon if you use it incorrectly.  
And so far , all the planet does just that ... they using it incorrectly.    

Personally I have an medium education, but even so ,
I am aware of the importance about protecting the source of knowledge,
from warlords  and bankers.

It possible to belong to the elite team of the  "more passioned" Greeks,
or its on the DNA ..  

But thats the way that I feel.  
  





    

[Rhythmtech]

The word "cheap labor"  its an financial generic term, not necessarily an bad thing.

If I can live  in Greece , with one dollar per day as earning , and all my bills be payed too,
this is an bless .. 

Yes, although I would say cheap labor is a relative term not generic. Since cheap is only relative to what labor costs in your area.

I think the world does enough to recognize Greece for its contributions to law, math, science, and civilization, do you not agree?
1) I agree that in the class room , if you do not kiss the ass of Plato and Aristotle , you do not get an diploma.

2) I agree that in your own life , with out this base of knowledge , you will be always working at loading trucks , never an job in an office.

3) I agree that , if you master this knowledge , you can become an top ranked person.

4) I agree that when you become an such " top ranked person " , you forget easily who made you,
who was your sources ,  and you act by your pure ego.

There is no logical explanation to me , how its possible all this top rank people ,
highly educated bankers , to enjoying  so much  , to see the world becoming dust ,  from their actions ..

My bottom sentence are that the knowledge coming from Greeks,
its an lethal weapon if you use it incorrectly. 
And so far , all the planet does just that ... they using it incorrectly.   

Personally I have an medium education, but even so ,
I am aware of the importance about protecting the source of knowledge,
from warlords  and bankers.

It possible to belong to the elite team of the  "more passioned" Greeks,
or its on the DNA .. 

But thats the way that I feel. 
 

It has been the same with religion, people kill each other for a God that is supposed to be merciful and forgiving, and the same in politics, a politician who says he will bring peace starts a war, and the same in...

The story of power corrupting and knowledge being power is as old as history can record. The problem is that there are evil people and  always will be. I don't think you can teach a person to be good, it must be a decision on their part because it often takes more effort to do the right thing than the wrong.

 

[Mechatrommer]

i agree. good or bad is not related to any religion, politic, country or even any matter on earth, but it will depend on the person themselve. anywhere, any religion, any country, we will got bad and good people.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well If some one choose to become an bad person, most of the times, he gets payed by the same coin.
But the damage , is made .

What bothers me the most , are the the implanted by "brain wash"  idea ,
about superior nations at the year of 2010.

But I think that I aware of the cure .... start traveling ... Do not let others telling how the world looks like.
 




 

[Simon]

But I think that I aware of the cure .... start traveling ... Do not let others telling how the world looks like.
 




 

oh he finally figured out what he needs 

[Kiriakos-GR]

oh he finally figured out what he needs  

Yep   , plus something with pleasurable look, so to escort me ..  

(Jimmy Fontana _ Il mondo )

[Simon]

oh he finally figured out what he needs  

Yep   , plus something with pleasurable look, so to escort me ..  

(Jimmy Fontana _ Il mondo )

Now your asking for a bit too much 

[Rhythmtech]

Well If some one choose to become an bad person, most of the times, he gets payed by the same coin.
But the damage , is made .

What bothers me the most , are the the implanted by "brain wash"  idea ,
about superior nations at the year of 2010.

But I think that I aware of the cure .... start traveling ... Do not let others telling how the world looks like.

 

I am happy in the US and consider this the best place for me at the moment. I spent a large part of my life in Costa Rica because my parents moved there when I was 5 yrs old and we moved back when I was 16. So I can say I have "traveled" in addition I've gone to Colombia, Guatemala, Panama, and Mexico. All were places that had qualities I liked very much, but the US has had the most to offer in terms of safety, a job, and freedom.  I don't consider it a superior nation, just the best for me.