Author Topic: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)  (Read 26100 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2020, 10:53:48 pm »
If the circuit is lightly loaded then yes, it seems reasonable enough to run the AC off it, but as above, did they do any calculation, examine the utilization of the circuit, or just use it because it was convenient? Considering the workmanship I think the answer is clear..

I guarantee it was this.
We have an attic ladder right next to to new aircon and the power point wirign was right there next to it. Guy probably thought it was the easiest install ever - don't have to climb through the roof to run the cable from the panel, just splice it in here!
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2020, 11:37:16 pm »
If the circuit is lightly loaded then yes, it seems reasonable enough to run the AC off it, but as above, did they do any calculation, examine the utilization of the circuit, or just use it because it was convenient? Considering the workmanship I think the answer is clear..

I guarantee it was this.
We have an attic ladder right next to to new aircon and the power point wirign was right there next to it. Guy probably thought it was the easiest install ever - don't have to climb through the roof to run the cable from the panel, just splice it in here!

Or maybe he was just doing you a favor by getting you 'on the air', so to speak. He could have said that you have to wait until after xmas for a sparky to turn up and run a dedicated service from the fuse box to the A/C.

You are fit and quite able to run by yourself two 2.5 twin and earths from the fuse box to that area, 1 for the A/C and the other to split up that other circuit with too many things already on it. The fitter presumed you are either a tight wad or lazy.



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Offline tonyh88

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #102 on: December 10, 2020, 12:39:16 am »
definitely sketchy....
 

Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #103 on: December 10, 2020, 12:28:26 pm »
An isolation swish. Must check if Digikey do them in a polished turd color?
Quote
When we are talking 3.5 kw it is cooling capacity not anything to do with electricity consumption
Are they talking about free energy? KWin < KWout ?

Indeed, really important they don't get caught cutting corners. Or cutting costs. Makes one wonder just how many of their other installations in Sydney now need verifying that they've been done to code?

Guess they picked the wrong guy to frigg the job on?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 12:34:08 pm by Syntax Error »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #104 on: December 10, 2020, 02:01:59 pm »
Quote
When we are talking 3.5 kw it is cooling capacity not anything to do with electricity consumption
Are they talking about free energy? KWin < KWout ?

No, they're talking about the refrigeration cycle..
 

Offline Poty

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #105 on: December 10, 2020, 02:40:24 pm »
Well, in my humble opinion, it is not a "legal" connection.
In my country, and under the suspect that this is a normal "home" aircon, (1 phase, split and low power one), normative commands that you MUST have an exclusive line from the main or the secondary board to the aircon. And it connects to the inner unit. There is a 3, 4 or 5 cable package  that connects the inner with the outter unit, to provide power and command. That´s all. Intermediate boxes doesn´t exist.
Ok, that´s the normative, and good aircon installers follow it rigorously.
The rest of the universe? does what they want.
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Online Brumby

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2020, 12:43:49 am »
Quote
When we are talking 3.5 kw it is cooling capacity not anything to do with electricity consumption
Are they talking about free energy? KWin < KWout ?

No, they're talking about the refrigeration cycle..
Quite so.

Air conditioners (not evaporative air coolers) and refrigerators are the two most common forms of heat pump.  A heat pump is a device which transfers thermal energy from one location to another.  As such, it takes a lot less energy to do this transfer than create it (for the example of heating).  It is not at all unusual to put 1kW of power into a system for it to give you the equivalent of 3kW of heating (or thereablouts).

How much energy will be required is a factor of the temperature differential between the two locations (as well as efficiencies, etc.).  If you want heat to flow from one location that is cooler to one that is warmer, then you will need to put in some work.  However, if you want heat to flow from one location that is warmer to one that is cooler, then you will require less work - and, in fact, this happen with no energy input - just at a rate dictated by the thermal resistance of the situation.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 12:45:27 am by Brumby »
 

Online Brumby

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2020, 12:51:02 am »
You are fit and quite able to run by yourself two 2.5 twin and earths from the fuse box to that area, 1 for the A/C and the other to split up that other circuit with too many things already on it.

This is what I would do.  Find out the requirements for running a cable and get that in place.  Then all the sparky has to do is confirm the cable run is OK then terminate the ends.  Quick and easy job for them and I get the satisfaction of knowing where the cable is and how it was secured .... and that the whole job is up to my expectations.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2020, 04:51:53 am »
You are fit and quite able to run by yourself two 2.5 twin and earths from the fuse box to that area, 1 for the A/C and the other to split up that other circuit with too many things already on it.
This is what I would do.  Find out the requirements for running a cable and get that in place.  Then all the sparky has to do is confirm the cable run is OK then terminate the ends.  Quick and easy job for them and I get the satisfaction of knowing where the cable is and how it was secured .... and that the whole job is up to my expectations.

I paid for the installation, they are going to damn well do it!
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2020, 08:40:06 am »
I paid for the installation, they are going to damn well do it!
Yes, but are you going to be able to persuade them to do it reasonably soon, using a fully licenced and insured electrician, and fully to code so it passes an independent inspection?

If their proposal and timetable to rectify the defective installation isn't entirely to your satisfaction, you may well be better off pressing for a refund of all monies paid less the trade cost of the air conditioning unit, so you can employ an electrician of your choice to do the job properly!
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2020, 10:59:35 am »
I paid for the installation, they are going to damn well do it!
Yes, but are you going to be able to persuade them to do it reasonably soon, using a fully licenced and insured electrician, and fully to code so it passes an independent inspection?

If their proposal and timetable to rectify the defective installation isn't entirely to your satisfaction, you may well be better off pressing for a refund of all monies paid less the trade cost of the air conditioning unit, so you can employ an electrician of your choice to do the job properly!

Too much dicking around, just get them to fix it.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2020, 12:45:30 pm »
I'm not sure that the powers that be would be entirely thrilled to see a copy of the latest version of AS/NZ 3000 especially as they lke to flog it off for $A220.

https://www.techstreet.com/sa/searches/30039054?searchText=AS%2FNZS+3000%3A2018

I'd suggest that the mods of this forum get rid of that post before shit hits the fan.

(I know this is old from pages back... haha...)
There is a difference between a forum/server HOSTING & promoting a 'document', and 'someone' making a 'reference' to it!!
It is only one of many, actually available, and if 'someone' looks at it, (or heavens-to-bid, download it!), then you may be rest-
assured that no 'legal' entity(s) will be on the forums Coat-Tails!!   8)
(Mind you, many people here have since made pasted refs from it, which I'm sure were not 'typed'...  :P).

On a funny side-line, back when I was 'in-the-trade' and had my own original 'bought' copy pf the AS3000, all we ever had
for free for YEARS, was up-dated paragraphs & sentences that we had to 'Cut & Paste' (with scissors & glue!!), so our Books
looked like a horrible ratty Scrap-Book after so many years!!   ;D

I'd also like to clarify a few things, including 'Keeping-It-Simple' for the uninitiated...
In Dave's original photos from page-1, I mentioned thereafter that the use of such 'Junction-Boxes' IS legal, and they ARE here.
(Although the pref would be for a sep breaker/feed, IF the SWBD had facility for it. However, I did not know at the time that there
was no Isolator at the main condenser unit, which is a MUST/NORM for such 'hard-wired' devices for isolation. (Pref 2-pole)!

As for repeated comments about power requirements/usage, some people forget that reverse-cycle devices can be up to 200%
efficient which sounds weird, as they are Transferring energy! so it's not about just BTU's etc against current flow!  :palm:


The greedy bastards wouldn't be losing anything, so they can get over it. It's readily available via much easier and faster methods than contacting me..

I was actually commenting upon the link that GlennSprigg put up on the first page of this thread which has the full document. That could get this site into legal difficulties.
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2020, 05:00:57 am »
Air conditioners (not evaporative air coolers) and refrigerators are the two most common forms of heat pump.  A heat pump is a device which transfers thermal energy from one location to another.  As such, it takes a lot less energy to do this transfer than create it (for the example of heating).  It is not at all unusual to put 1kW of power into a system for it to give you the equivalent of 3kW of heating (or thereablouts).

How much energy will be required is a factor of the temperature differential between the two locations (as well as efficiencies, etc.).  If you want heat to flow from one location that is cooler to one that is warmer, then you will need to put in some work.  However, if you want heat to flow from one location that is warmer to one that is cooler, then you will require less work - and, in fact, this happen with no energy input - just at a rate dictated by the thermal resistance of the situation.

Several years ago I had some people on another technical forum berate me for pushing pseudoscience when I mentioned that a heat pump gives you more heat into the room than it consumes in electricity. Nevermind the fact that I had one already, and apparently they'd never heard of little insignificant companies like General Electric and Trane that made them for decades  :palm:

Resistance heat is 100% efficient at converting electricity into heat, but that ignores the part of the cycle where heat is turned into electricity in the first place which is far less efficient, not to mention transmission losses. The laws of energy prevent you from using a heat pump to heat the boilers at the power company to generate the electricity to run the heat pump but it does not prevent you from recovering a portion of the losses incurred turning heat into electricity by pumping heat from outside into the building.
 

Offline noidea

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2020, 06:55:06 am »
Australia does have Residential codes and this may have been changed for the Green energy thing.
 To try and Phase out the old style AC systems .

IIRC Australia phased out 3 phase residentional and non-inverter units a long time ago as part of  an energy reduction inititive.
Not so much phased them out per se, the gov just keeps lifting the MEPS barriers every couple of years and manufacturers stop importing ones that don't comply or are not worth re engineering to meet our standards.
 

Offline noidea

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #114 on: December 12, 2020, 07:09:35 am »
I heard back from them:

Quote
"It is standard practice and within the all rules to add an existing appliance to a power cct as long as it does not draw above 10amps.
It also needs to have a dedicated isolation switch so the unit can be serviced and to follow code.
The current for a 3.5 kw system is well below the 10amp max.
When we are talking 3.5 kw it is cooling capacity not anything to do with electricity consumption.
Any kitchen appliance would draw much more than the AC.
However you are correct about the wires that are visible they should not be shown this needs to be rectified and I need to make sure that an isolation swish has been fitted so the unit can be serviced without turning off your power.
It’s extremely important to us to get this done correctly as we do not cut corners and need everything to be done to code."

You can download the manufacturers installation manual from their website, if you want to see what they say:
https://mhiaa.com.au/document/avanti-srk-zsa-w-dxk-zsa-w-series-installation-manual/
The brochure also says the unit can draw up to 9A max current
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2021, 08:40:12 am »
UPDATE!
They came back out the fix it, and I now have not one but TWO unsecured and exposed wiring boxes!  :palm:

 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2021, 08:56:18 am »
SMH
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2021, 09:08:41 am »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2021, 09:15:01 am »
SMH

SMH?  :-//

Shake my head.

At least the j boxes are not sitting on or in the insulation. So there's that.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2021, 09:36:45 am »
Did they fix the isolator up?
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #120 on: February 04, 2021, 09:40:30 am »
Did they fix the isolator up?

New dedicated wiring back to the mains fuse box and a dedicated circuit braker installed. It did cost me the cabling though as they claimed it was perfectly fine and legal to install into the existing mains power point wiring given the rating.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #121 on: February 04, 2021, 09:49:13 am »
Yeah but that Jbox abomination. The thing is, the bare single exposed conductors aside, I just don't like idea of pumping 10,16,20A through a plastic jbox. We are supposed to nail the bloody things to a fixture.

The problem is the size of the actual AC connector and thus the size of the wire joint. A 42 deg day outside and that little box get hot hot hot. At least this way it does have a bit of air flow in the natural ventilation of your roof (if it's built right).

You can fix it easily with a nice headshrinked join clipped to that stringer there. But I know you don't want to.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 09:51:03 am by Ed.Kloonk »
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2021, 10:08:16 am »
Yeah but that Jbox abomination. The thing is, the bare single exposed conductors aside, I just don't like idea of pumping 10,16,20A through a plastic jbox. We are supposed to nail the bloody things to a fixture.

Yes it's supposed to be fixed, but no those boxes aren't an issue.
 

Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #123 on: February 04, 2021, 10:12:58 am »
They cannot be serious? Like most EEVBlog followers, I was expecting to see this job rectified to standard, not botched even more. Did the guy pass the practical part of the Licensed Electrician's Assessment (LEA), and if so, who the hell was doing the assessment? I hope that black tape is to standard, and not from the same dubious quality dumpster as those plastic boxes? At least you now have the certified paperwork ;)

 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2021, 10:18:32 am »
Yeah but that Jbox abomination. The thing is, the bare single exposed conductors aside, I just don't like idea of pumping 10,16,20A through a plastic jbox. We are supposed to nail the bloody things to a fixture.

Yes it's supposed to be fixed, but no those boxes aren't an issue.

Do I understand correctly? Did they drag a new wire through from the fuse box and stop short and join it in the roof instead of taking it all the way to iso switch?
iratus parum formica
 


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