Author Topic: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)  (Read 26087 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #150 on: February 06, 2021, 12:46:09 am »
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 12:54:38 am by Ed.Kloonk »
iratus parum formica
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB


Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #152 on: February 06, 2021, 12:51:31 am »
iratus parum formica
 
The following users thanked this post: Naguissa

Offline Naguissa

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 114
  • Country: es
    • Foro de electricidad, electrónica y DIY / HUM en español
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #153 on: February 06, 2021, 01:24:31 am »
Jokes aside.

I have a little kid, but even without him I wanted a non-gas house.

I wanted a safe place, and as I bougth this house, I priorized electrical wiring over anything on the restoration (50+ year old house).


Now I want to get solar pannels and bateries to get off-grid, but economical status of Spain is horrible, so I (we) need to calculate every little step,...

Still, electric appliances are so easy to protect and rework that any improvement is quite easy, even if you have to bypass local regulations...




I remember when I was a kid: I rewired a village house upper floor: I intalled a shielded whire, 3.5Kw outdoors whire, in my grandmother house, to feed 2 bulbs. It had two tiny wires, near 70 y.o.  I used that wire because..... it was in a village house, having mud (adobe, not the computer one) walls...


And it's still in uae, even when I'm just hovering 40....




Anyway, usually any wire is enougth, but I prefer oversized wires to be capable to handle future needs,

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12413
  • Country: au
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #154 on: February 06, 2021, 10:11:38 am »
That type of fuse board Layout was banned here 30 ++ years ago.

The house is about 35 years old.
Dave . I would really recommend you Get that Box Totally Replaced with the new rail Mount
enclosure and a complete rewire .
  I would hate for one of your future Video's  showing how your house went up in smoke .
 That Box layout is a real NO NO . I would but that on your
" I must do list as number 1 project . "  .. Do it for the Kids Safety if nothing else ..

The layout is fine and quite common. Portable heaters here burn down many more houses than fuse boxes.

Exactly.

Just because it isn't pretty, doesn't mean it's dangerous.

There are tens of thousands of installations that look just like this - and most owners won't know about the tangle behind the board because they won't look at anything but the meters and fuses/breakers.  (Yes, there are still a lot of ceramic fuses still out there.)
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12413
  • Country: au
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #155 on: February 06, 2021, 10:16:40 am »
That's in Spain, a 2018 renewed installation.

Yes, they wouldn't instal la box like this now, but it was different in the 80's.

Dave, shame on you... You are EE!

That means he can understand what's there - and have an idea of risk - but unless he is a licenced electrician, he can't touch it.
 
The following users thanked this post: Naguissa

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #156 on: February 06, 2021, 03:51:13 pm »
Just because it isn't pretty, doesn't mean it's dangerous.

There are tens of thousands of installations that look just like this - and most owners won't know about the tangle behind the board because they won't look at anything but the meters and fuses/breakers.  (Yes, there are still a lot of ceramic fuses still out there.)

Just because there are lots like it doesn't mean it's safe. It's clearly not properly maintained.
 

Offline themadhippy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3264
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #157 on: February 06, 2021, 04:11:32 pm »
I bet if you inspected every electricians own house you'd find  more than few that  don't comply 100% to the rules,i know mine dont,but in the main we know the risks and what exactley is safe
 

Offline Labrat101

  • Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 688
  • Country: 00
  • Renovating Old Test Equipment & Calibration ..
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #158 on: February 06, 2021, 06:47:58 pm »
Just because it isn't pretty, doesn't mean it's dangerous.

There are tens of thousands of installations that look just like this - and most owners won't know about the tangle behind the board because they won't look at anything but the meters and fuses/breakers.  (Yes, there are still a lot of ceramic fuses still out there.)


Just because there are lots like it doesn't mean it's safe. It's clearly not properly maintained.
:palm: :scared: :--
 If you can't distinguish Between A mess and Down right  :wtf: Dangerous .
 I marked the 3 Hot spots All illegal ..  in the rest of the 1st & 2nd world class countries.
   Except for Australia where the electricians don't work to any safety standards ..
"   All Started With A BIG Bang!! .  .   & Magic Smoke  ".
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #159 on: February 06, 2021, 07:12:48 pm »
Just because it isn't pretty, doesn't mean it's dangerous.

There are tens of thousands of installations that look just like this - and most owners won't know about the tangle behind the board because they won't look at anything but the meters and fuses/breakers.  (Yes, there are still a lot of ceramic fuses still out there.)


Just because there are lots like it doesn't mean it's safe. It's clearly not properly maintained.
:palm: :scared: :--
 If you can't distinguish Between A mess and Down right  :wtf: Dangerous .

Just because you don't know what you're looking at doesn't mean it's dangerous. It is presently a mess - that's reason enough to investigate. Whether it's dangerous or not needs to be determined by doing more than screaming "OH GOD I SEE COPPER IT MUST BE LIVE!", and "A CABLE TIE, IT WILL KILL US!".

I cannot see for certain what that wire is connected to or whether it's live - and nor can you. It actually looks like that was the feed to the breaker, which would mean it's not live..

Quote
Except for Australia where the electricians don't work to any safety standards ..

Ah, yes, one bad installation condemns an entire country.

Calm down, dear, and get a grip.
 
The following users thanked this post: ludzinc, GlennSprigg

Offline Labrat101

  • Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 688
  • Country: 00
  • Renovating Old Test Equipment & Calibration ..
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #160 on: February 06, 2021, 07:44:53 pm »
Just because it isn't pretty, doesn't mean it's dangerous.

There are tens of thousands of installations that look just like this - and most owners won't know about the tangle behind the board because they won't look at anything but the meters and fuses/breakers.  (Yes, there are still a lot of ceramic fuses still out there.)


Just because there are lots like it doesn't mean it's safe. It's clearly not properly maintained.
:palm: :scared: :--
 If you can't distinguish Between A mess and Down right  :wtf: Dangerous .

Just because you don't know what you're looking at doesn't mean it's dangerous. It is presently a mess - that's reason enough to investigate. Whether it's dangerous or not needs to be determined by doing more than screaming "OH GOD I SEE COPPER IT MUST BE LIVE!", and "A CABLE TIE, IT WILL KILL US!".

I cannot see for certain what that wire is connected to or whether it's live - and nor can you. It actually looks like that was the feed to the breaker, which would mean it's not live..

Quote
Except for Australia where the electricians don't work to any safety standards ..

Ah, yes, one bad installation condemns an entire country.

Calm down, dear, and get a grip.

You overly did not look close enough Not the CABLE TIE,  :palm:
 The Blue wire follow it were it goes to .
 But I guess you are Not a Certified Electrician as you would not have made such comment .
 & Yes I am A certified Electrician my Licence is for 1.5KV 600amp  UK . .
  Now retired but still hold a valid Licence .  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 07:49:16 pm by Labrat101 »
"   All Started With A BIG Bang!! .  .   & Magic Smoke  ".
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #161 on: February 06, 2021, 07:53:28 pm »
You overly did not look close enough Not the CABLE TIE,  :palm:
 The Blue wire follow it were it goes to .
 But I guess you are Not a Certified Electrician as you would not have made such comment .
 & Yes I am A certified Electrician my Licence is for 15KV 600amp  UK . .
  Now retired but still hold a valid Licence .  :popcorn:

It's hard to see much of anything in the five pixels you grabbed. There are no blue wires anywhere in there. E: Okay, there's one blue one but it's not in that bundle and you can barely see it.

You may be a certified electrician, somewhere (UK? What, UKraine (which is UA..)? Because you're not here.), but you're jumping to conclusions. You cannot inspect and test the installation through a glance at a Youtube video.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 08:00:24 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline Labrat101

  • Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 688
  • Country: 00
  • Renovating Old Test Equipment & Calibration ..
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #162 on: February 06, 2021, 08:00:15 pm »
You overly did not look close enough Not the CABLE TIE,  :palm:
 The Blue wire follow it were it goes to .
 But I guess you are Not a Certified Electrician as you would not have made such comment .
 & Yes I am A certified Electrician my Licence is for 15KV 600amp  UK . .
  Now retired but still hold a valid Licence .  :popcorn:

It's hard to see much of anything in the five pixels you grabbed. There are no blue wires anywhere in there.

You may be a certified electrician, somewhere (UK? What, UKraine (which is UA..)? Because you're not here.), but you're jumping to conclusions. You cannot inspect and test the installation through a glance at a Youtube video.
If your trying to be smart and follow my IP wont work I,m on a  Secure VPN . 
  What, UKraine (which is UA..)  Answer is No not in those countries
"   All Started With A BIG Bang!! .  .   & Magic Smoke  ".
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #163 on: February 06, 2021, 08:01:25 pm »
If your trying to be smart and follow my IP wont work I,m on a  Secure VPN .

I'm not and I don't have your IP. Nor do I care about your paranoia.
 
Quote
Answer is No not in those countries

So where's this 'UK' license for? And why does it qualify you to make judgements on systems you can't properly see and don't know the applicable standards for?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 08:03:33 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline Labrat101

  • Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 688
  • Country: 00
  • Renovating Old Test Equipment & Calibration ..
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #164 on: February 06, 2021, 08:05:57 pm »
If your trying to be smart and follow my IP wont work I,m on a  Secure VPN .

I'm not and I don't have your IP. Nor do I care about your paranoia.
 
Quote
Answer is No not in those countries

So where's this 'UK' license for? And why does it qualify you to make judgements on systems you can't properly see and don't know the applicable standards for?
why what would you do if you saw it .. its no use to a colour blind Monke h
"   All Started With A BIG Bang!! .  .   & Magic Smoke  ".
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #165 on: February 06, 2021, 08:08:45 pm »
why what would you do if you saw it .. its no use to a colour blind Monke h

I'd know something about the qualifications you're so proud of.

And I'm not colour blind - I know the difference between blue and green/yellow. You, apparently, can't see that - perhaps turn off the VPN so you can see the video at better than 360p.

This is perhaps a language barrier - that and an issue of assumption. You've seen some things which you assume are dangerous without knowing the context and are banging on your vaguely licensed drum about it. Me, I've seen a general mess which merits investigation rather than assumptions. But we both seem to agree it's an awful mess..
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 08:10:46 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline Labrat101

  • Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 688
  • Country: 00
  • Renovating Old Test Equipment & Calibration ..
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #166 on: February 06, 2021, 08:55:48 pm »
why what would you do if you saw it .. its no use to a colour blind Monke h

I'd know something about the qualifications you're so proud of.

And I'm not colour blind - I know the difference between blue and green/yellow. You, apparently, can't see that - perhaps turn off the VPN so you can see the video at better than 360p.

This is perhaps a language barrier - that and an issue of assumption. You've seen some things which you assume are dangerous without knowing the context and are banging on your vaguely licensed drum about it. Me, I've seen a general mess which merits investigation rather than assumptions. But we both seem to agree it's an awful mess..
Ok yes maybe I few off the handle a bit . I have put another picture  with 3 arrows .
 the Blue wire goes to the tap up . were the other 3 green/yellow wire marry up under the tape .
 The Wire is solid Blue . ..
 Also the Bare wire live or dead should have at least have clamp protector on it
"   All Started With A BIG Bang!! .  .   & Magic Smoke  ".
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #167 on: February 06, 2021, 09:18:30 pm »
Ok yes maybe I few off the handle a bit . I have put another picture  with 3 arrows .
 the Blue wire goes to the tap up . were the other 3 green/yellow wire marry up under the tape .
 The Wire is solid Blue . ..

No, no it isn't. Look at it at the base of the tape. It is clearly green/yellow. It makes no sense for a blue wire to go there, none of the cables used in the installation will have blue wires. E: Possible exception of 3+E used for two way lighting, I guess that probably does. But it won't be back here..

What the condition of that joint is is a complete unknown, which is why this mess needs dealing with, but it's not obviously dangerous.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 09:30:10 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline tkamiya

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2178
  • Country: us
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #168 on: February 07, 2021, 01:52:31 am »
I'm in US.  I had A/C mess before.

According to my lawyer, I had two choices. 
1)  Have the installer yank out what they did and pay me back the whole cost
2)  Have a new installer FIX what's wrong and sue the first for the cost of repair

Having the first one do the right thing wasn't even discussed.  At that point, either they can't or they won't was well established.
 

Online Ian.M

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13216
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #169 on: February 07, 2021, 02:34:31 am »
I'm in US.  I had A/C mess before.

According to my lawyer, I had two choices. 
1)  Have the installer yank out what they did and pay me back the whole cost
2)  Have a new installer FIX what's wrong and sue the first for the cost of repair

Having the first one do the right thing wasn't even discussed.  At that point, either they can't or they won't was well established.
Yep.  Dave's been dicking around with their idiots for over two months now since I suggested it would probably need legal action:
So post your photos to a new topic there, and when they are horrified, find a code enforcement contact to email them to.  I suspect you are going to need to stop payment and contact your lawyer . . .

Have posted.
https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/is-this-aircon-wiring-install-legal.191943/
Lawyer? Are you serious? Why? So I can pay them hundreds of bucks to send a nasty letter  :-DD
and no-one (including Dave) knows for sure if their remediation is up to current code, + they've dunned him for the extra cost of the wiring that *should* have been included in the original quote:
Did they fix the isolator up?

New dedicated wiring back to the mains fuse box and a dedicated circuit braker installed. It did cost me the cabling though as they claimed it was perfectly fine and legal to install into the existing mains power point wiring given the rating.
or if it wasn't and their contention tapping the socket circuit was legal is true, then what about the islotator they should have fitted if they were doing it that way?

@Dave,
Get a qualified person to isolate the aircon and socket circuits and check the connections in those junction boxes and in the aircon itself.  If you are tempted to check them your self *DON"T* tell us *YOU* looked at them, just whether or not they were OK.  ;)   

Also ask on electriciansforums.net if current code requires a local isolator for a new install of an aircon of the type you have on a dedicated circuit.   You'll then have a decent idea whether you should get an independent electrician in to sort it out for peace of mind, possibly fitting local isolators to all the aircons if that's current code, or whether its good enough as-is.
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #170 on: February 07, 2021, 02:53:52 am »
and no-one (including Dave) knows for sure if their remediation is up to current code

Also ask on electriciansforums.net if current code requires a local isolator for a new install of an aircon of the type you have on a dedicated circuit.

Quote
4.19 AIRCONDITIONING AND HEAT PUMP SYSTEMS
Airconditioning and heat pump systems incorporating a compressor shall be
provided with an isolating switch (lockable) in accordance with
Clause 2.3.2.2
, installed adjacent to but not on the unit, which isolates all
parts of the system, including ancillary equipment, such as head units, from
the same location.
For split system airconditioning units, where the manufacturer requires the
airconditioning system to be connected to the electricity supply by means of
a plug and socket at the internal unit, the isolating switch installed at the
external unit shall control the socket-outlet located at the internal unit.

For airconditioning systems (including room heaters incorporating a
compressor) where the internal unit (or units) are supplied from a circuit
separate to that of the compressor, a warning sign shall be permanently
fixed on or adjacent to the compressor isolator indicating that the isolator
does not isolate the ancillary equipment. Where the internal unit (or units)
are not connected by plug and socket, an independent isolating switch
(lockable) in accordance with Clause 2.3.2.2 shall also be installed adjacent
to each separately supplied internal unit (or units).

Exceptions:
1 The isolating switch may be installed at the switchboard supplying the
system if the switchboard is dedicated to the equipment (e.g. an
airconditioning plant room).

2 This Clause need not apply to unitary window or through-wall
airconditioners, nor to heat pump hot water services that are supplied
by a plug and socket-outlet installed adjacent to the unit.
 

Online Ian.M

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13216
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #171 on: February 07, 2021, 03:05:57 am »
@Monkeh: I belive you are correct.

Quote
2 This Clause need not apply to unitary window or through-wall
airconditioners
...
 

I've just checked back - Dave's first post confirms its a split type, so the clause *DOES* apply.   

However he'll probably feel the need for a locally qualified electrician to tell him that: *NO*, we aren't misinterpreting code, hence my suggestion to check back with electriciansforums.net.
 

Offline tkamiya

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2178
  • Country: us
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #172 on: February 07, 2021, 03:28:22 am »
Again, I'm only familiar with Japanese code where I am licensed as an electrician and some of US code but not much.

According to my attorney in United States, my opinions doesn't matter but I need an "expert" testimony.  I had to hire someone in the industry and have him tell me what's wrong.  Then, court has an option to summon him to personally testify.  Then and only then, we can prove the installer wrong.  OUR opinion does not count in court of law.  At least in United States, it does not.

This is my last post on this thread as there is nothing more for me to share anything useful.  Dave, good luck.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1259
  • Country: au
  • Medically retired Tech. Old School / re-learning !
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #173 on: February 07, 2021, 01:16:42 pm »
why what would you do if you saw it .. its no use to a colour blind Monke h

I'd know something about the qualifications you're so proud of.

And I'm not colour blind - I know the difference between blue and green/yellow. You, apparently, can't see that - perhaps turn off the VPN so you can see the video at better than 360p.

This is perhaps a language barrier - that and an issue of assumption. You've seen some things which you assume are dangerous without knowing the context and are banging on your vaguely licensed drum about it. Me, I've seen a general mess which merits investigation rather than assumptions. But we both seem to agree it's an awful mess..
Ok yes maybe I few off the handle a bit . I have put another picture  with 3 arrows .
 the Blue wire goes to the tap up . were the other 3 green/yellow wire marry up under the tape .
 The Wire is solid Blue . ..
 Also the Bare wire live or dead should have at least have clamp protector on it

Dear Sir...  you do realize don't you?? that the main objection to your 1st comment wasn't about the 'messy'
wiring, but your automatic assumption that 'Aussies' are slack and know nothing about rules!!   :palm:
Yes, we often joke about 'our-selves' with our 'She'll be right' attitude, but that has NOTHING to do with our
knowledge, training & pride for the vast majority of us now/prior professionals! The same can be said for any
country. There are 'tradesmen', and then there are "TRADESMEN!"  Just so that you know...

Our Old switchboards with the swinging Bakelite panels with often old original porcelain fuses & switches, often
custom mounted, WERE a bit of a rats-nest behind them. It didn't look 'pretty', but it was clear where each cable
came from, and the occasional loops that were visible & obvious. Now!... Even Australia!! (Who would have thunk
it!), uses modern modular panels/boxes, with modern breakers/main-switches/ELCB etc etc., with built-in Bus-Bars
etc.  However, when new wiring is added to older premises, it is not Law to change to a new/modern panel, generally.
Old porcelain fuses etc MAY be changed to newer Breakers, and new Circuits MAY come in from either above or below.
Even if the main board is changed completely, often the 'old' wiring may not reach the 'new' Bus, Breaker-Strip. So it
is common to 'join' those wires, with a crimped (double crimped either end) connector.

I was/am a 'perfectionist' with MY wiring, due to my upbringing in the field, but in 'Static' (as opposed to wiring in an
aircraft or space-shuttle!) wiring, un-cable-tied wires un-seen, can be a blessing to follow!!   :-+
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #174 on: February 07, 2021, 03:08:46 pm »
Dear Sir...  you do realize don't you?? that the main objection to your 1st comment wasn't about the 'messy'
wiring, but your automatic assumption that 'Aussies' are slack and know nothing about rules!!   :palm:

Thank you but actually, no, Glenn, you don't speak for me or understand my objection at all.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf