Author Topic: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)  (Read 26123 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2020, 08:24:23 pm »
Check the label closely. It is rated 3kW because it is pumping this amount of heat out of the heat exchanger (into ambient air). Electrically it is rated at 9 Amps.
Would not worry.

That probably makes more sense than the units we use here, our refrigeration is still rated in tons, which was the amount of ice it could produce in some unit of time. It's around 12,000 btu per ton IIRC.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2020, 11:38:13 pm »
Don't bother with a sparky. Get a copy of AS3000 and you will have the answer in there. Numbskulls in the Australian government hosted a copy of the standard a couple of years ago online, available for free to every man and his dog.
 

Online WattsThat

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2020, 03:08:33 am »

That probably makes more sense than the units we use here, our refrigeration is still rated in tons, which was the amount of ice it could produce in some unit of time. It's around 12,000 btu per ton IIRC.

Yes, it is 12K BTU’s but the unit of one ton of refrigeration is the energy required to melt 2000 pounds of ice at 0C in 24 hours. It came about when replacing natural ice for cooling with mechanical refrigeration. Just another one of those arcane US units that we cannot rid ourself of.
 
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Offline aargee

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2020, 04:02:26 am »
We had two 4.3kW systems installed many years ago and each had its own circuit with CB at the fuse box and a isolation switch at the outdoor compressor unit.
(QLD but the standards are national I think)
Not easy, not hard, just need to be incentivised.
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2020, 05:01:25 am »
I think single isolation wires are not a large problem. Dave can isolate them with an isolating tape, for example, to feel safer.
The main concern for me is how safe the electrical connection is made. The main rules are about that (because of fire hazard).

If there isn't a dedicated electrical design project for this wiring then we can't complain about the absence of an individual circuit breaker for each aircon.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 05:05:05 am by Vovk_Z »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2020, 05:06:36 am »
Regional rules not withstanding (and I'm 100% positive that's not compliant anyway), that's a complete clusterfuck of a hackjob. Have a proper electrician deal with it, get your money back from the people who fitted it, and never use them again.

I think single isolation wires are not a large problem. Dave can isolate them with an isolating tape, for example, to feel safer.

That is not an acceptable solution for crappy workmanship.

Quote
If there isn't a dedicated electrical design project for this wiring then we can't complain about the absence of an individual circuit breaker for each aircon.

Sure you can. This is a fixed, dedicated load and most sensible regulations require such to have dedicated circuits. It is, however, a fairly small load in this case.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 06:04:10 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2020, 06:03:40 am »
Its not a local 'sparkie' you should be talking to.  You need the opinion of a government 'sparkie' in the code enforcement department.

Yeah, but it would be good to know off the bat if "hell no, that's not up to code" from a local sparky who knows the local regulations.

I am not such, however, I now have a copy of AS3000. It's.. very familiar looking.

There does not seem to be a regulation prohibiting connecting an AC unit to an existing socket circuit at this power level, but I am only skimming and lightly searching, it's 600 pages.

However, just from one photo it blatently breaches multiple regulations. Let's pick a couple quick ones.

Quote
1.6.5 Electrical installation circuit arrangement
Every electrical installation shall be divided into circuits as necessary
to—
(a) avoid danger and minimize inconvenience in the event of a fault;
and
(b) facilitate safe operation, inspection, testing and maintenance.
NOTE: Clause 2.3 contains requirements for the control and protection of
electrical installations.

Quote
1.7 SELECTION AND INSTALLATION OF ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT
1.7.1 General
Electrical equipment forming part of an electrical installation shall
be—
(a) selected and installed to operate in a safe and reliable manner in
the course of normal operating conditions;
(b) selected and installed so as not to cause a danger from electric
shock
, fire, high temperature or physical injury in the event of
reasonably expected conditions of abnormal operation, overload,
fault or external influences that may apply in the electrical
installation
; and
(c) electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the
requirements of this Standard and the additional requirements as
specified in the manufacturer’s instructions.

Quote
3.3.2.8 Other mechanical stresses
Wiring systems shall be selected and installed so as to minimize damage to
the cable insulation, sheathing and connections during installation,
operation and maintenance.

Measures undertaken to minimize damage may include the following:
(a) Provision of supports, continuous or at appropriate intervals suitable
for the mass of the cable.

(b) Use of suitable fixings for the cable size and type that hold the cable in
position without damage.

(c) Use of suitable connections for the cable size and type that reduce
mechanical strain at joints and terminations.

(d) Attention to minimum bending radius limits of cables.
(e) Provision of flexibility to accommodate any movement or tension
stresses.

Quote
3.9.1 General
Wiring systems shall be installed in accordance with the generally
accepted principles of safe and sound practice, using methods that
will protect the electrical installation against mechanical or electrical
failure under ordinary use, wear and tear, and any abnormal
conditions that may reasonably be anticipated.

Quote
3.9.3 Support and fixing
3.9.3.1 General
Wiring systems shall be supported by suitable means to comply with
Clause 3.3.2.8.

Wiring systems shall be fixed in position by suitable clips, saddles or
clamps or by means that will not damage the wiring system and that will not
be affected by the wiring system material or any external influences.

Quote
3.10.1.1 Insulated, unsheathed cables
Insulated, unsheathed cables shall be enclosed in a wiring enclosure
throughout their entire length.

Exceptions: Wiring enclosures need not be provided for insulated,
unsheathed cables installed as follows:
1 As aerial conductors, in accordance with Clause 3.12.
2 In an enclosed wall cavity between an accessory and a wiring
enclosure or sheathing terminated within 100 mm of the hole over or
within which the accessory is mounted.
NOTE: This exception does not apply within a roof space.
3 Within switchboards, metering and similar enclosures, provided that
such cables are not exposed to touch during normal switching or
meter-reading operations.
4 As earthing or equipotential bonding conductors installed in
accordance with Section 5.
5 As an extra-low voltage circuit, in accordance with Clause 7.5.
3.10.1.2 Insulated and sheathed cables
Cables of a sheathed type need not be installed in a wiring enclosure.
Exception: Cables having insulation or sheath that does not meet the
combustion propagation requirements of the AS/NZS 5000 series,
e.g. polyethylene-insulated unsheathed cables, shall be installed in fire-
rated enclosures.
Where the sheath of a cable is removed, the exposed cores of the cable
shall be enclosed in accordance with Clause 3.10.1.1.

 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2020, 06:43:40 am »
Electrical safety standards have the same basics as far as junction boxes- screwed down, cable staples, strain reliefs, sufficient room for connections etc. Things fail from a bad connection heating up and melting plastic and touching combustibles.

For A/C there is a huge inrush from compressor+contactor combo's so I have seen special regulations calling for a dedicated branch circuit. But this A/C has a VFD so it wouldn't have high inrush.

This Wikipedia pic made me happier  :)
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2020, 07:15:25 am »
Another shot. Didn't bother to open it.
Have sent a formal complaint and request for it to be fixed.
There were three issues:
1) The wiring
2) The shared power point circuit and no way to isolate it without taking out half our house.
3) Bypassing of the obvious Solar Analytics system which has a dedicated aircon power monitoring circuit.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2020, 09:05:35 am »
iratus parum formica
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2020, 09:36:48 am »
the thread should be modified to NSFW
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2020, 09:39:04 am »
Regional rules not withstanding (and I'm 100% positive that's not compliant anyway), that's a complete clusterfuck of a hackjob. Have a proper electrician deal with it, get your money back from the people who fitted it, and never use them again.

I think single isolation wires are not a large problem. Dave can isolate them with an isolating tape, for example, to feel safer.

That is not an acceptable solution for crappy workmanship.

Quote
If there isn't a dedicated electrical design project for this wiring then we can't complain about the absence of an individual circuit breaker for each aircon.

Sure you can. This is a fixed, dedicated load and most sensible regulations require such to have dedicated circuits. It is, however, a fairly small load in this case.

Wot he said, it's a shoddy job and needs to be re-done properly.

Wouldn't have much if any confidence the rest of the install was done properly either.
 

Offline deadlylover

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2020, 10:35:58 am »
I had a 3.5kw unit installed for the garage a few years back and they used the power from the power point. I was curious as well back then and IIRC you had to have an isolator switch (AS/NZS 3000:2007 Clause 4.19).

Attached a pic of my install. (I think it was AUD1350 installed for the Daikin Cora 3.5kw, back to back)
 
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Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2020, 12:26:54 pm »
That is the correct way .
As per HVAC code of practice.
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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2020, 12:54:22 pm »
I had a 3.5kw unit installed for the garage a few years back and they used the power from the power point. I was curious as well back then and IIRC you had to have an isolator switch (AS/NZS 3000:2007 Clause 4.19).
Attached a pic of my install. (I think it was AUD1350 installed for the Daikin Cora 3.5kw, back to back)

Thanks.
No isolator switch on mine. Only way to isolate is the 20A breaker for the power points which also takes out half of my house.
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2020, 01:01:00 pm »
Another shot. Didn't bother to open it.
Have sent a formal complaint and request for it to be fixed.
There were three issues:
1) The wiring
2) The shared power point circuit and no way to isolate it without taking out half our house.
3) Bypassing of the obvious Solar Analytics system which has a dedicated aircon power monitoring circuit.
Dave I would also have the pipe work checked as well . If his wiring is that bad he is not a certified engineer .
and the chances are that he has put kinks in the pipe work as well . The New gas have high flow rates compared to the old R22 
and run @ higher pressures so any kinks in the pipe work will cause oil slugging at start and shorten the life of the compressor not to mention
an efficacy loss . There are many thing that these Cowboy are not aware of including the positioning of the out side unit .
Ie The Radiator (condenser ) Back of the unit MUST be a minimum of 30cm away from a wall . or if free stand Not facing south .
all these are important if you want your AC to work at its MAX rating. 
The other very important thing . Did he purge the pipes of air . If this was not done Demand a replacement Unit . Or a full Vacuum of the system.
Just a few percent of air will cause the oil to turn green . and the compressor will run hot and die within a very short life time .

Update Edit :: You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current to allow for the Start current  15 to 20A MAX should be good for you .
 Don't use the fast trip fuses as they will flip on a hot day full load start . But on the other hand its better the AC fuse drops just one fuse and not the whole house
 It has a LRA (Lock rotor Amps ) of 39A

 :popcorn:
RNS  Certified HVAC Engineer & Tech designer ( London Uni, USA Cert . Carrier Cert. .Copland Cert .))
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 01:28:33 pm by Labrat101 »
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2020, 02:11:41 pm »
Update Edit :: You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current to allow for the Start current  15 to 20A MAX should be good for you .
 Don't use the fast trip fuses as they will flip on a hot day full load start . But on the other hand its better the AC fuse drops just one fuse and not the whole house
 It has a LRA (Lock rotor Amps ) of 39A

3.9A. Being inverter run a 16A circuit is likely specified.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2020, 02:13:25 pm »
I had a 3.5kw unit installed for the garage a few years back and they used the power from the power point. I was curious as well back then and IIRC you had to have an isolator switch (AS/NZS 3000:2007 Clause 4.19).
Attached a pic of my install. (I think it was AUD1350 installed for the Daikin Cora 3.5kw, back to back)

Thanks.
No isolator switch on mine. Only way to isolate is the 20A breaker for the power points which also takes out half of my house.

Quote
4.19 AIRCONDITIONING AND HEAT PUMP SYSTEMS
Airconditioning and heat pump systems incorporating a compressor shall be
provided with an isolating switch (lockable) in accordance with
Clause 2.3.2.2, installed adjacent to but not on the unit, which isolates all
parts of the system, including ancillary equipment, such as head units, from
the same location.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2020, 02:34:06 pm »
Update Edit :: You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current to allow for the Start current  15 to 20A MAX should be good for you .
 Don't use the fast trip fuses as they will flip on a hot day full load start . But on the other hand its better the AC fuse drops just one fuse and not the whole house
 It has a LRA (Lock rotor Amps ) of 39A

One of the great things about these inverter-run split systems is that they don't have any of those requirements.  The LRA is only listed out of tradition, there is no actual LRA for a unit like this.  It will never draw more than the 3.9A except maybe a small inrush when first connected.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2020, 02:39:59 pm »
Update Edit :: You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current to allow for the Start current  15 to 20A MAX should be good for you .
 Don't use the fast trip fuses as they will flip on a hot day full load start . But on the other hand its better the AC fuse drops just one fuse and not the whole house
 It has a LRA (Lock rotor Amps ) of 39A

3.9A. Being inverter run a 16A circuit is likely specified.
Inverters don't need the same rating Fuses as they have a build in soft start . The motor runs almost all the time but runs very slowly and have an unloading
Valve so in the off cycle the compressor can still be operating unloaded so the current will be very low . Different makes and models do vary slightly .

Where as Dave's compress is a rotary vein and is not an inverter model .

 
Quote
The LRA is only listed out of tradition, there is no actual LRA for a unit like this.  It will never draw more than the 3.9A except maybe a small inrush when first connected.
Not entirely true When an inverter motor goes bad It will take out the board as well, & visa versa if the inverter board fails which they do quite frequently after about
3 to 4 years can burn out the compressor .  Inverter motors Have a very nice LRA's   and very destructive  Pro's & Cons

« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 02:55:48 pm by Labrat101 »
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2020, 03:05:15 pm »
Where as Dave's compress is a rotary vein and is not an inverter model .

It is an inverter model.  I won't claim all split-systems are, but every one I've seen new in the last decade or so has been.

https://www.airconditionerland.com.au/products/mitsubishi-heavy-industry-avanti-c3-5kw-h3-7kw-reverse-cycle-split-system#feature
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2020, 03:18:51 pm »
Quote
You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current
which would also require the cable to be uprated,under the uk regs that would require a motor circuit pulling 5A needing to be  protected at 35A,and instead of 1mm cable more like 4 or 6mm,a substantial increase in material costs.much simpler to use a slower fuse type designed for motor circuits.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2020, 03:57:24 pm »
Quote
You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current
which would also require the cable to be uprated,under the uk regs that would require a motor circuit pulling 5A needing to be  protected at 35A,and instead of 1mm cable more like 4 or 6mm,a substantial increase in material costs.much simpler to use a slower fuse type designed for motor circuits.

He may be referencing their equivalent of a C curve MCB, which would be reasonable for a traditional hard-starting compressor of moderate size.
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2020, 04:08:27 pm »
Where as Dave's compress is a rotary vein and is not an inverter model .

It is an inverter model.  I won't claim all split-systems are, but every one I've seen new in the last decade or so has been.

https://www.airconditionerland.com.au/products/mitsubishi-heavy-industry-avanti-c3-5kw-h3-7kw-reverse-cycle-split-system#feature
That link is also showing its Not an inverter the AC's further down are the Panasonic .
 I also checked The Mitsubishi service manual on this Model Number its a Rotary Vein as I said .
Look at the Plate .below of Dave's Unit . He has the top Number which is non inverter .
The VHI is the inverter Model  .
Dave plate shows this SRK35ZSA-W  .

51 years in Service building & HVAC I think I know how to read an AC serial Plate . Thank you.

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Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2020, 04:18:14 pm »
Quote
You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current
which would also require the cable to be uprated,under the uk regs that would require a motor circuit pulling 5A needing to be  protected at 35A,and instead of 1mm cable more like 4 or 6mm,a substantial increase in material costs.much simpler to use a slower fuse type designed for motor circuits.
For the UK you require 2.5mm cable For a standard AC the cable rating is for Max Load Amps The Surge
 current at Start is only for 1 second  .
 So on a UK Ring mains which is 2.5mm in a loop will be equal to 4mm assuming middle of loop (ring)
Small AC could be plugged direct to socket as UK plugs have internal fuse .13A .
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 04:20:22 pm by Labrat101 »
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