Author Topic: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)  (Read 26115 times)

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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2020, 04:34:10 pm »
Where as Dave's compress is a rotary vein and is not an inverter model .

It is an inverter model.  I won't claim all split-systems are, but every one I've seen new in the last decade or so has been.

https://www.airconditionerland.com.au/products/mitsubishi-heavy-industry-avanti-c3-5kw-h3-7kw-reverse-cycle-split-system#feature
That link is also showing its Not an inverter the AC's further down are the Panasonic .
 I also checked The Mitsubishi service manual on this Model Number its a Rotary Vein as I said .
Look at the Plate .below of Dave's Unit . He has the top Number which is non inverter .
The VHI is the inverter Model  .
Dave plate shows this SRK35ZSA-W  .

51 years in Service building & HVAC I think I know how to read an AC serial Plate . Thank you.

The link given states "Inverter Split System", and nowhere does it say "not an inverter"..

The SRK is the indoor unit, the SRC is the outdoor. The FDTC35VH1 mentioned on the outdoor unit is a ceiling cassette indoor unit, and has nothing to do with the compressor drive. I may not be an HVAC tech, but I can read that much. Perhaps you could provide the technical manual for the SRC35ZSA-W to properly disprove the marketing - the SRC35ZS-W1 I have, and is definitely an inverter drive..

Quote
You should have a seperate Fuse rated @ 7 x the normal operating current
which would also require the cable to be uprated,under the uk regs that would require a motor circuit pulling 5A needing to be  protected at 35A,and instead of 1mm cable more like 4 or 6mm,a substantial increase in material costs.much simpler to use a slower fuse type designed for motor circuits.
For the UK you require 2.5mm cable For a standard AC the cable rating is for Max Load Amps The Surge
 current at Start is only for 1 second  .
 So on a UK Ring mains which is 2.5mm in a loop will be equal to 4mm assuming middle of loop (ring)
Small AC could be plugged direct to socket as UK plugs have internal fuse .13A .

The cable rating must meet or exceed the continuous capacity of the protective device. A ring final is also certainly not equal to 4mm² - not only is the copper effectively 5mm², the surface area is also significantly greater than a single 6mm²..
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2020, 04:38:38 pm »
51 years in Service building & HVAC I think I know how to read an AC serial Plate . Thank you.

I don't know what to say to that.  You might want to take a second look.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Avanti C3.5kW H3.7kW Reverse Cycle Inverter Split System SRK35ZSA-W-Set

Also, when the FLA and LRA are the same, that's a dead giveaway that it is an inverter system.  I don't know what rotary vane has to do with it--that's the compressor head, not the motor type.



A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2020, 04:55:15 pm »
Quote
For the UK you require 2.5mm cable For a standard AC the cable rating is for Max Load Amps The Surge current at Start is only for 1 second  .

no its not,the cable size is determined by the size of the protective device protecting it,the size of the protective device is determined by design current,or in regs speak

Iz=>In=>Ib
were
Ib = Design current
In = Nominal current rating of the protection device
Iz =  current rating of cable

for a 5A motor circuit protected by a 6A BS88  device the cable only needs to handle 6A,well within the capacity of 1mm
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 04:57:23 pm by themadhippy »
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2020, 05:08:11 pm »
Quote
For the UK you require 2.5mm cable For a standard AC the cable rating is for Max Load Amps The Surge current at Start is only for 1 second  .

no its not,the cable size is determined by the size of the protective device protecting it,the size of the protective device is determined by design current,or in regs speak

Iz=>In=>Ib
were
Ib = Design current
In = Nominal current rating of the protection device
Iz =  current rating of cable

for a 5A motor circuit protected by a 6A BS88  device the cable only needs to handle 6A,well within the capacity of 1mm
Sorry Yes your correct ,I was thinking of something else . I Left the UK 32years ago . Xpat . They changed
 a lot of the Laws & Reg's because of the EU crap that your still trying to brake free of .
Good luck and Keep well .
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Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2020, 05:22:48 pm »
51 years in Service building & HVAC I think I know how to read an AC serial Plate . Thank you.

I don't know what to say to that.  You might want to take a second look.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Avanti C3.5kW H3.7kW Reverse Cycle Inverter Split System SRK35ZSA-W-Set

Also, when the FLA and LRA are the same, that's a dead giveaway that it is an inverter system.  I don't know what rotary vane has to do with it--that's the compressor head, not the motor type.
Where on This plate does it say Inverter
  This is Dave's photo .  Lets ask Dave Does it say Inverter any where on his AC . ?
 Dave please take a photo of the outside unit . or tell us what you have  your plate says Standard ?
 And even if it is an Inverter that would only mean that he can put a lighter fuse . but still needs an isolator switch.
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2020, 05:29:42 pm »
Where on This plate does it say Inverter

Why would it say 'inverter' on the inside unit?  |O

I didn't say that the word 'inverter' was on any of the placards.  Is it required to be?  What I did say is that the compressor unit is in fact an inverter-drive model and I'm not at all sure why you are convinced it isn't.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2020, 05:35:01 pm »
Where on This plate does it say Inverter

Why would it say 'inverter' on the inside unit?  |O

I didn't say that the word 'inverter' was on any of the placards.  Is it required to be?  What I did say is that the compressor unit is in fact an inverter-drive model and I'm not at all sure why you are convinced it isn't.
This from your Link     Why would it say 'inverter' on the  maybe some typed after ,
   this is from the page your link goes to were is the RED Inverter or the word   :-//
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2020, 08:14:08 pm »
Where on This plate does it say Inverter

Why would it say 'inverter' on the inside unit?  |O

I didn't say that the word 'inverter' was on any of the placards.  Is it required to be?  What I did say is that the compressor unit is in fact an inverter-drive model and I'm not at all sure why you are convinced it isn't.
This from your Link     Why would it say 'inverter' on the  maybe some typed after ,
   this is from the page your link goes to were is the RED Inverter or the word   :-//

See attached screenshot of the site he linked..

Again, please show the diagram in the technical manual showing that the SRC35ZSA-W unit does not have an inverter drive.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2020, 09:18:47 pm »
regulation aside, its a dumbass decision. As far as homes go an air conditioner is likely a
1) hard to service device, moreso then a oven. You can't pull it out of the cubby hole its in and unplug it
2) takes a while to get people to service it. A realistic house might require gardeners to cut their way into the overgrown HVAC and then a HVAC tech to say its fucked AFTER a deep all day clean then depending on your choice in system a shipping delay then an installation delay. (I am imagining full service in the worst case).

so it should be on its own breaker. I would do it that way.

The water pump is on a separate isolator because its a 4 day affair to change it if you got the money (well pump)
The stove is on a somewhat shared circuit because at most you blow the breaker and unplug it from the wall. This means 5 minutes on reduced lighting in a room with ~4 windows. But that light is like a work light when you are doing precise cutting and stuff in the kitchen (non chill).

I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.

I look at up time and safety. You cannot have lights going out and you don't want to tempt people to cook food improperly.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 09:24:07 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2020, 09:24:22 pm »
I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.

I looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.

The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".
 

Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2020, 09:36:08 pm »
@Monkeh - in those standards you have there, what does it say about unfused spurs that do not terminate in a fused connection? It seems Dave's HVAC is 'hardwired' to a spur off the 20A line?

Uk-wise, this practice would make me nervous as the spur might not have sufficient rating to survive a short at the HVAC unit end; not without excessive heating. Remembering a cable is down rated when stowed behind insulation.

Would have made more sense to have looped out the 20A line down and back to the HVAC unit, maintaining the rating and integrity of the 20A line - which I'm assuming is a ring? But that would have required two wires and two junction boxes.

Just a thought, do Aussies have fused plugs like us Brits? They certainly have our 'empire' red and black cable color codes.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2020, 09:38:36 pm »
@Monkeh - in those standards you have there, what does it say about unfused spurs that do not terminate in a fused connection? It seems Dave's HVAC is 'hardwired' to a spur off the 20A line?

It's not a ring, so there is no such thing as a spur. It's a radial branch and that in itself is (probably, I don't see why they'd change that) totally fine.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2020, 09:43:21 pm »
I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.
I looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.

The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".
You didn't look carefully. Your partial quote of the standards is misleading/deceptive, a power point is an acceptable isolation method both practically and by the standards.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2020, 09:49:46 pm »
I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.

I looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.

The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".

It's sad that the negotiations turned into gunpoint threats so quickly. Some times 'common guys...' is enough.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2020, 09:52:21 pm »
I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.
I looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.

The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".
You didn't look carefully. Your partial quote of the standards is misleading/deceptive, a power point is an acceptable isolation method both practically and by the standards.

I have read quite carefully, I suggest you have another go:

Quote
4.19 AIRCONDITIONING AND HEAT PUMP SYSTEMS
Airconditioning and heat pump systems incorporating a compressor shall be
provided with an isolating switch (lockable) in accordance with
Clause 2.3.2.2
, installed adjacent to but not on the unit, which isolates all
parts of the system, including ancillary equipment, such as head units, from
the same location.
For split system airconditioning units, where the manufacturer requires the
airconditioning system to be connected to the electricity supply by means of
a plug and socket at the internal unit, the isolating switch installed at the
external unit shall control the socket-outlet located at the internal unit.

For airconditioning systems (including room heaters incorporating a
compressor) where the internal unit (or units) are supplied from a circuit
separate to that of the compressor, a warning sign shall be permanently
fixed on or adjacent to the compressor isolator indicating that the isolator
does not isolate the ancillary equipment. Where the internal unit (or units)
are not connected by plug and socket, an independent isolating switch
(lockable) in accordance with Clause 2.3.2.2 shall also be installed adjacent
to each separately supplied internal unit (or units).

Exceptions:
1 The isolating switch may be installed at the switchboard supplying the
system if the switchboard is dedicated to the equipment (e.g. an
airconditioning plant room).

2 This Clause need not apply to unitary window or through-wall
airconditioners, nor to heat pump hot water services that are supplied
by a plug and socket-outlet installed adjacent to the unit.

No isolator switch on mine. Only way to isolate is the 20A breaker for the power points which also takes out half of my house.

Also, the regulation I was referring to when you quoted was:

Quote
1.6.5 Electrical installation circuit arrangement
Every electrical installation shall be divided into circuits as necessary
to—
(a) avoid danger and minimize inconvenience in the event of a fault;
and
(b) facilitate safe operation, inspection, testing and maintenance.
NOTE: Clause 2.3 contains requirements for the control and protection of
electrical installations.

Which I did not quote partially or misleadingly. Subject to the other loads and usage of the 20A circuit, its use may be allowable with the required isolator. Without said isolator (which is not present and explicitly required), the abuse of that circuit is very likely in breach of 1.6.5 (which is a somewhat subjective regulation, along with 3.9.1, which I quite like, and yes, this installation is in violation of..).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 10:00:58 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2020, 10:30:14 pm »
Where on This plate does it say Inverter

Why would it say 'inverter' on the inside unit?  |O

I didn't say that the word 'inverter' was on any of the placards.  Is it required to be?  What I did say is that the compressor unit is in fact an inverter-drive model and I'm not at all sure why you are convinced it isn't.
This from your Link     Why would it say 'inverter' on the  maybe some typed after ,
   this is from the page your link goes to were is the RED Inverter or the word   :-//

See attached screenshot of the site he linked..

Again, please show the diagram in the technical manual showing that the SRC35ZSA-W unit does not have an inverter drive.
Please look at this page  https://mhiaa.com.au/?s=SRK35ZSA-W
It shows 2 pictures of Avanti: SRK35ZSA-W  and  DXK12ZSA-W
 AVANTI  series but  there is a difference!  Look at view product.
they are not the same . and 1 cost more than the other . Yes they are both 3.5kw .
 The plate on Dave's outside unit clearly states its a SRK35ZSA-W & not DXK12ZSA-W
 If you require the Service Manual from Mitsubishi  you can just login by yourself .
 Have Fun enjoy life 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2020, 10:50:42 pm »
Please look at this page  https://mhiaa.com.au/?s=SRK35ZSA-W
It shows 2 pictures of Avanti: SRK35ZSA-W  and  DXK12ZSA-W
 AVANTI  series but  there is a difference!  Look at view product.
they are not the same . and 1 cost more than the other . Yes they are both 3.5kw .
 The plate on Dave's outside unit clearly states its a SRK35ZSA-W & not DXK12ZSA-W
 If you require the Service Manual from Mitsubishi  you can just login by yourself .
 Have Fun enjoy life

No, it clearly indicates it's an SRC35ZSA-W, the SRK is the indoor unit. The DXK12ZSA-W is also an indoor unit. What the specific differences between those are I don't know, but they're not the outdoor unit so they're not relevant here.

I do not have a login for Mitubishi. Please show the outdoor unit schematic for an SRC35ZSA-W showing it to not have an inverter drive. That's all I'm asking, because so far you've shown no evidence of it being non-inverter despite the marketing claims from both Mitsubishi and their distributors.
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2020, 11:19:16 pm »
Please look at this page  https://mhiaa.com.au/?s=SRK35ZSA-W
It shows 2 pictures of Avanti: SRK35ZSA-W  and  DXK12ZSA-W
 AVANTI  series but  there is a difference!  Look at view product.
they are not the same . and 1 cost more than the other . Yes they are both 3.5kw .
 The plate on Dave's outside unit clearly states its a SRK35ZSA-W & not DXK12ZSA-W
 If you require the Service Manual from Mitsubishi  you can just login by yourself .
 Have Fun enjoy life

No, it clearly indicates it's an SRC35ZSA-W, the SRK is the indoor unit. The DXK12ZSA-W is also an indoor unit. What the specific differences between those are I don't know, but they're not the outdoor unit so they're not relevant here.

I do not have a login for Mitubishi. Please show the outdoor unit schematic for an SRC35ZSA-W showing it to not have an inverter drive. That's all I'm asking, because so far you've shown no evidence of it being non-inverter despite the marketing claims from both Mitsubishi and their distributors.
There was a photo on that page of the outside unit.
Sorry. If you can't login . I can't give you the details of Mitsubishi login as they would revoke my
login privileges & all there manuals are copy right . Mitsubishi Australia does have some differences for local customs and regulations and there wording is some what strange to the EU.
So until Dave confirms what he actual Has a photo of the outside unit . There could be a possibility  That the cowboy may have made a bigger Bull's up than  shown .
 I going by the serial numbers for my reference . from the photos supplied.
 Lets just say we are both right or both wrong and part as friends .
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2020, 11:25:40 pm »
There may well be a photo, but both those part numbers (SRK and DXK) are for indoor units. The outdoor unit Dave has is an SRC35ZSA-W, all product pages relevant to these units indicate inverter drive.

There's no need not to be friends, it's just that your claim directly contradicts all publically available information and includes multiple errors in reading of the labels shown.. Everything points to, as one would expect of a decent split system purchased in 2020, an inverter driven compressor.

If you check out the brochure for their split AC systems: https://mhiaa.com.au/document/split-systems-brochure/

It indicates every range in there is inverter driven. And this exact unit combination is in there, with some interesting points like variable power and an inrush current of 3.9A (which is, uh, a little low for not having an inverter. Same figure as on the label.).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 11:46:15 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2020, 11:30:18 pm »
Just a thought, do Aussies have fused plugs like us Brits?
No.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2020, 03:21:09 am »
So until Dave confirms what he actual Has a photo of the outside unit . There could be a possibility  That the cowboy may have made a bigger Bull's up than  shown .
 I going by the serial numbers for my reference . from the photos supplied.

I posted a photo of the outdoor unit plate, what else is there to show?
 

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2020, 03:25:59 am »
I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.
I looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.
The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".

I've complained about the practica aspect to them as well, but wanted to know if hard wiring a device like an aircon to an existng power point circuit was even legal.
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2020, 03:28:19 am »
I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.
I looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.

The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".
You didn't look carefully. Your partial quote of the standards is misleading/deceptive, a power point is an acceptable isolation method both practically and by the standards.

I have read quite carefully, I suggest you have another go:

Quote
4.19 AIRCONDITIONING AND HEAT PUMP SYSTEMS
Airconditioning and heat pump systems incorporating a compressor shall be
provided with an isolating switch (lockable) in accordance with
Clause 2.3.2.2
, installed adjacent to but not on the unit, which isolates all
parts of the system, including ancillary equipment, such as head units, from
the same location.
For split system airconditioning units, where the manufacturer requires the
airconditioning system to be connected to the electricity supply by means of
a plug and socket at the internal unit, the isolating switch installed at the
external unit shall control the socket-outlet located at the internal unit.

For airconditioning systems (including room heaters incorporating a
compressor) where the internal unit (or units) are supplied from a circuit
separate to that of the compressor, a warning sign shall be permanently
fixed on or adjacent to the compressor isolator indicating that the isolator
does not isolate the ancillary equipment. Where the internal unit (or units)
are not connected by plug and socket, an independent isolating switch
(lockable) in accordance with Clause 2.3.2.2 shall also be installed adjacent
to each separately supplied internal unit (or units).

Exceptions:
1 The isolating switch may be installed at the switchboard supplying the
system if the switchboard is dedicated to the equipment (e.g. an
airconditioning plant room).

2 This Clause need not apply to unitary window or through-wall
airconditioners, nor to heat pump hot water services that are supplied
by a plug and socket-outlet installed adjacent to the unit.

No isolator switch on mine. Only way to isolate is the 20A breaker for the power points which also takes out half of my house.

Also, the regulation I was referring to when you quoted was:

Quote
1.6.5 Electrical installation circuit arrangement
Every electrical installation shall be divided into circuits as necessary
to—
(a) avoid danger and minimize inconvenience in the event of a fault;
and
(b) facilitate safe operation, inspection, testing and maintenance.
NOTE: Clause 2.3 contains requirements for the control and protection of
electrical installations.

Which I did not quote partially or misleadingly. Subject to the other loads and usage of the 20A circuit, its use may be allowable with the required isolator. Without said isolator (which is not present and explicitly required), the abuse of that circuit is very likely in breach of 1.6.5 (which is a somewhat subjective regulation, along with 3.9.1, which I quite like, and yes, this installation is in violation of..).
Sorry for a large quote, but:
"2 This Clause need not apply to unitary window or through-wall
airconditioners, nor to heat pump hot water services that are supplied
by a plug and socket-outlet installed adjacent to the unit.".

 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2020, 03:29:07 am »
Would have made more sense to have looped out the 20A line down and back to the HVAC unit, maintaining the rating and integrity of the 20A line - which I'm assuming is a ring? But that would have required two wires and two junction boxes.

In this case it looks like they have just cut into the existing 20A wiring to one of the power points in the new room, creating a Y split. This is at the of the already long wiring that goes throughout the house.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2020, 03:30:37 am »
Sorry for a large quote, but:
"2 This Clause need not apply to unitary window or through-wall
airconditioners, nor to heat pump hot water services that are supplied
by a plug and socket-outlet installed adjacent to the unit.".

This unit would not be classed as a "through window" or "through wall" unit, it's a "split system".
 


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