Author Topic: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)  (Read 26105 times)

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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2020, 03:36:14 am »
I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.
I looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.
The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".

I've complained about the practica aspect to them as well, but wanted to know if hard wiring a device like an aircon to an existng power point circuit was even legal.

Considering you described this circuit as being 'half the house', I'd go with 'no' via 1.6.5 as I posted before. There's a whole informative appendix on circuit arrangements covering load factors and diversity which I didn't feel like fully grokking last night which would probably back that. I can send you a copy if you feel like absorbing 611 pages. Obviously the work is condemnable on numerous other points anyway.

Sorry for a large quote, but:
"2 This Clause need not apply to unitary window or through-wall
airconditioners, nor to heat pump hot water services that are supplied
by a plug and socket-outlet installed adjacent to the unit.".

This unit would not be classed as a "through window" or "through wall" unit, it's a "split system".

Quite. 4.19 seems pretty clear cut on this subject.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 03:38:07 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2020, 03:45:48 am »
I can send you a copy if you feel like absorbing 611 pages.

Not really.
I'll wait for a response from them.
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2020, 04:18:36 am »
I'm not sure that the powers that be would be entirely thrilled to see a copy of the latest version of AS/NZ 3000 especially as they lke to flog it off for $A220.

https://www.techstreet.com/sa/searches/30039054?searchText=AS%2FNZS+3000%3A2018

I'd suggest that the mods of this forum get rid of that post before shit hits the fan.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #78 on: December 07, 2020, 04:33:02 am »
I'm not sure that the powers that be would be entirely thrilled to see a copy of the latest version of AS/NZ 3000 especially as they lke to flog it off for $A220.

https://www.techstreet.com/sa/searches/30039054?searchText=AS%2FNZS+3000%3A2018

I'd suggest that the mods of this forum get rid of that post before shit hits the fan.

The greedy bastards wouldn't be losing anything, so they can get over it. It's readily available via much easier and faster methods than contacting me..
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 04:36:22 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2020, 04:53:37 am »
I'm not sure that the powers that be would be entirely thrilled to see a copy of the latest version of AS/NZ 3000 especially as they lke to flog it off for $A220.

https://www.techstreet.com/sa/searches/30039054?searchText=AS%2FNZS+3000%3A2018

I'd suggest that the mods of this forum get rid of that post before shit hits the fan.

The greedy bastards wouldn't be losing anything, so they can get over it. It's readily available via much easier and faster methods than contacting me..

I was actually commenting upon the link that GlennSprigg put up on the first page of this thread which has the full document. That could get this site into legal difficulties.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2020, 05:03:53 am »
I'm not sure that the powers that be would be entirely thrilled to see a copy of the latest version of AS/NZ 3000 especially as they lke to flog it off for $A220.

https://www.techstreet.com/sa/searches/30039054?searchText=AS%2FNZS+3000%3A2018

I'd suggest that the mods of this forum get rid of that post before shit hits the fan.

The greedy bastards wouldn't be losing anything, so they can get over it. It's readily available via much easier and faster methods than contacting me..

I was actually commenting upon the link that GlennSprigg put up on the first page of this thread which has the full document. That could get this site into legal difficulties.

Oh, I missed that. Yes, that's probably best gone. I stand by 'greedy bastards'..
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2020, 05:57:39 am »
I don't know why people are looking at regulation rather then the fact its not practical. They should make it practical for a home owner in case of contingencies.
I looked at both. Not to mention the quality of the work.

The practicality is in fact a regulation (see my post on that..), but Dave wanted actual regulations to throw at them as opposed to an untrained customer saying "that's not how I think it should be".
You didn't look carefully. Your partial quote of the standards is misleading/deceptive, a power point is an acceptable isolation method both practically and by the standards.
I have read quite carefully, I suggest you have another go:
a) I didn't need to read it as I know whats accepted in practice
b) you're still thinking you can at a quick read pick out some clauses and apply them without considering all the applicable clauses
Its a standard, its not particularly easy to follow or read, and has built up an illogical structure and wording over its long history.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2020, 06:15:13 am »
a) I didn't need to read it as I know whats accepted in practice
b) you're still thinking you can at a quick read pick out some clauses and apply them without considering all the applicable clauses
Its a standard, its not particularly easy to follow or read, and has built up an illogical structure and wording over its long history.

So which clause overrides a specific requirement for a lockable isolator at an AC system?

I'll point out for the hard of reading (that'd be you!) that Dave has said there is no means of isolation except the breaker. That would mean no 'power point', assuming my guess that you mean 'socket' is correct.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 06:26:49 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2020, 07:18:07 am »
So post your photos to a new topic there, and when they are horrified, find a code enforcement contact to email them to.  I suspect you are going to need to stop payment and contact your lawyer . . .

Have posted.
https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/is-this-aircon-wiring-install-legal.191943/
Lawyer? Are you serious? Why? So I can pay them hundreds of bucks to send a nasty letter  :-DD

In the UK I would have though that getting the regulator of electricians to take a look would be enough, they would then be struck off but in the UK they are quite pedantic apparently. Last time I had work done the electrician was really worried about if my earth wire was 10sqmm or 16sqmm and once you translate that to round cable of any potential strand size it's near impossible to tell them apart. He concluded that mine was 16sqmm and that an inspector could not disagree so let me off having him rerun it.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2020, 09:15:47 am »
a) I didn't need to read it as I know whats accepted in practice
b) you're still thinking you can at a quick read pick out some clauses and apply them without considering all the applicable clauses
Its a standard, its not particularly easy to follow or read, and has built up an illogical structure and wording over its long history.

So which clause overrides a specific requirement for a lockable isolator at an AC system?

I'll point out for the hard of reading (that'd be you!) that Dave has said there is no means of isolation except the breaker. That would mean no 'power point', assuming my guess that you mean 'socket' is correct.

Also there was no labeling, so potentially dangerous to someone working on the system thinking the aircon breakers were switched off.
Didn't hear back from today...
 

Offline Labrat101

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2020, 09:37:18 am »
So until Dave confirms what he actual Has a photo of the outside unit . There could be a possibility  That the cowboy may have made a bigger Bull's up than  shown .
 I going by the serial numbers for my reference . from the photos supplied.

I posted a photo of the outdoor unit plate, what else is there to show?
Sorry to bug you Dave,  Can you please take a picture of the entire front of the AC unit so the whole unit can be seen .  So the Name Mitsubishi can be seen . (Front View & Front Right )
   and did you buy the Inverter unit?  or  the standard ?   
  Ether one you still a require the lockable Isolator switch  as per quote from  @ Vovk_Z

As the brochette seem to have a conflict . (may have not been updated )
 Australia does have Residential codes and this may have been changed for the Green energy thing.
 To try and Phase out the old style AC systems .

Sorry for my Grammar  ;D
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2020, 10:07:39 am »
So until Dave confirms what he actual Has a photo of the outside unit . There could be a possibility  That the cowboy may have made a bigger Bull's up than  shown .
 I going by the serial numbers for my reference . from the photos supplied.

I posted a photo of the outdoor unit plate, what else is there to show?
Sorry to bug you Dave,  Can you please take a picture of the entire front of the AC unit so the whole unit can be seen .  So the Name Mitsubishi can be seen . (Front View & Front Right )
   and did you buy the Inverter unit?  or  the standard ?   

I says inverter on it.
I didn't think you could buy a non-inverter type in Australia?
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2020, 10:09:21 am »
Australia does have Residential codes and this may have been changed for the Green energy thing.
 To try and Phase out the old style AC systems .

IIRC Australia phased out 3 phase residentional and non-inverter units a long time ago as part of  an energy reduction inititive.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2020, 04:04:38 pm »
In the UK... regulator of electricians

You mean the voluntary regulatory bodies which have no power to do anything except take money from electricians?
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2020, 04:28:25 pm »
there is someone that they have to show paperwork to every so often from what my electrician said.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2020, 04:38:03 pm »
Quote
In the UK... regulator of electricians
nearest thing would be the building works department of the local council if the work is notifiable,niceic naipit and all the rest are cash genarators voluntary,only interested in maintaining  there  cartel
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2020, 10:12:34 pm »
I says inverter on it.
I didn't think you could buy a non-inverter type in Australia?

Every one of those mini-split units I've seen has an inverter drive, even in the US. I think you can still buy conventional single phase systems but the compact high efficiency ones need the inverter to get the efficiency in such a small package. The outdoor unit of my 3 ton 14 SEER heat pump is a cube more than a meter on a side.
 

Offline aargee

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2020, 10:59:26 pm »
I have this thing of capturing all the documentation for stuff that gets installed at home - a little pedantic/engineer syndrome probably. Finding the install guide online for our Panasonic air-conditioners was near impossible, the install instructions have a wealth of information on electrical and physical needs of the units.
I would call a dedicated A/C installer, that advertises the fact, and get some advice? It may have been installed by a no-name contractor? The 'pros' generally try and stick to the rules.
Not easy, not hard, just need to be incentivised.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2020, 11:06:57 am »
Google "AS/NZS 3000:2018".
 

Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2020, 12:23:31 pm »
For the sake of idle curiosity, as this is at the end of a long cable run, would it be worth calculating the diversity of the circuit, and see how the HVAC challenges the numbers?
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2020, 12:51:09 pm »
Quote
would it be worth calculating the diversity of the circuit
don't know about australian regs,but in the uk it wouldn't make any difference
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2020, 09:39:10 pm »
I heard back from them:

Quote
"It is standard practice and within the all rules to add an existing appliance to a power cct as long as it does not draw above 10amps.
It also needs to have a dedicated isolation switch so the unit can be serviced and to follow code.
The current for a 3.5 kw system is well below the 10amp max.
When we are talking 3.5 kw it is cooling capacity not anything to do with electricity consumption.
Any kitchen appliance would draw much more than the AC.
However you are correct about the wires that are visible they should not be shown this needs to be rectified and I need to make sure that an isolation swish has been fitted so the unit can be serviced without turning off your power.
It’s extremely important to us to get this done correctly as we do not cut corners and need everything to be done to code."
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 10:13:24 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #97 on: December 09, 2020, 12:50:36 am »
I heard back from them:

Quote
"It is standard practice and within the all rules to add an existing appliance to a power cct as long as it does not draw above 10amps.
It also needs to have a dedicated isolation switch so the unit can be serviced and to follow code.
The current for a 3.5 kw system is well below the 10amp max.
When we are talking 3.5 kw it is cooling capacity not anything to do with electricity consumption.
Any kitchen appliance would draw much more than the AC.
However you are correct about the wires that are visible they should not be shown this needs to be rectified and I need to make sure that an isolation swish has been fitted so the unit can be serviced without turning off your power.
It’s extremely important to us to get this done correctly as we do not cut corners and need everything to be done to code."

Make sure the bloke that does the iso switch doesn't just unscrew the active at the terminal on the compressor and then run two wires over to the isolator. It's a no-no. The machine, whilst can be turned off, is still 'hot' inside, understand.

iratus parum formica
 

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #98 on: December 09, 2020, 09:27:27 am »
As an Australian electrician (Well, now an AU sparky living in Japan), when we would install aircons, they would always get a dedicated feed from the switch board and an isolator switch.
The work as shown in Dave's photos is completely non-compliant and wouldn't pass any inspection.
Exposed single insulation, junction box not fixed down, I can't see the rest of the wiring but all wiring needs to be clipped into place and supported unless the roof space is less then 500-600mm or so (Have to check the exact measurement).
Also, at 9 amps, I wonder if they did a maximum demand calculation before hooking it into the circuit? I doubt so... Inspectors love to ping on that detail.... It's a good way to get nuisance tripping at the best (Why does my power always go out when I dry my hair with the aircon turned on??) and a fire at worst.

I'd be pushing for a dedicated feed with a separate breaker, it's no fun when a future faulty aircon takes out power to half the house during the night.


Kudos for choosing Mitsubishi too, they along with Daikin do make nice machines (I have all Mitsubishi in my place).
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Is this Wiring Legal? (NSW)
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2020, 08:02:48 pm »
I heard back from them:

Quote
"It is standard practice and within the all rules to add an existing appliance to a power cct as long as it does not draw above 10amps.
It also needs to have a dedicated isolation switch so the unit can be serviced and to follow code.
The current for a 3.5 kw system is well below the 10amp max.
When we are talking 3.5 kw it is cooling capacity not anything to do with electricity consumption.
Any kitchen appliance would draw much more than the AC.
However you are correct about the wires that are visible they should not be shown this needs to be rectified and I need to make sure that an isolation swish has been fitted so the unit can be serviced without turning off your power.
It’s extremely important to us to get this done correctly as we do not cut corners and need everything to be done to code."

Clearly they do cut corners.

If the circuit is lightly loaded then yes, it seems reasonable enough to run the AC off it, but as above, did they do any calculation, examine the utilization of the circuit, or just use it because it was convenient? Considering the workmanship I think the answer is clear..
 


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