Author Topic: It is here: crime tax!  (Read 5740 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MT

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1687
  • Country: aq
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2022, 11:54:58 am »
Well, obviously "multiple basket" is good "if" it worked which it obviously dont as there is something called the "oligarchic owner class" who owns the so called multiple basket banks.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4670
  • Country: nl
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2022, 12:56:07 pm »
It is more about the fact that your savings are only compensated up to 100.000 euro per bank per person in case of bankruptcy. So in relation to that and in the light of the negative interest wave we had, it is best to keep it below this number per bank.

Some will say that it is wiser to invest when you have that kind of money, but I personally have always been unlucky with stocks. The little I still have is below what I payed for it 15 years ago. Rather keep it where I can just use it for living without big risk of it evaporating. (Like what happened with bitcoins this year :palm:)

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8218
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2022, 05:59:09 pm »
It's easier than ever to open multiple bank accounts these days, and I strongly suggest doing so. Certainly do not put all your eggs in the same basket.
I only have accounts in 3 countries and 2 currencies.
And cryptocurrency.
And I am strongly considering opening a numbered Swiss account.
Because it doesn't matter how little you have, someone is always coming for it.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 06:03:05 pm by tszaboo »
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1764
  • Country: us
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2022, 06:02:13 pm »
I am gobsmacked. Flowers from a vending machine?!?

If that surprises you, take a trip to Japan. You'll find all kinds of weird stuff in vending machines, including live crabs and used women's underwear.
"That's not even wrong" -- Wolfgang Pauli
 
The following users thanked this post: pcprogrammer

Offline YurkshireLad

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 365
  • Country: ca
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2022, 06:04:46 pm »
I am gobsmacked. Flowers from a vending machine?!?

If that surprises you, take a trip to Japan. You'll find all kinds of weird stuff in vending machines, including live crabs and used women's underwear.

My local mall sells cake from a vending machine. No, just no.
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7508
  • Country: va
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2022, 06:48:16 pm »
Quote
If that surprises you, take a trip to Japan.

I would love to, sometime :)
 

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15797
  • Country: fr
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2022, 03:35:38 am »
Well, obviously "multiple basket" is good "if" it worked which it obviously dont as there is something called the "oligarchic owner class" who owns the so called multiple basket banks.

Yeah, well. It's still better than nothing, they aren't yet all synchronized to fuck up all of your accounts at once. But can this happen? For sure.
 

Online JohanH

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 669
  • Country: fi
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2022, 06:56:50 am »
I am gobsmacked. Flowers from a vending machine?!?

Over here in the countryside, local flower shops are sometimes unmanned. You pick your flowers and drop money into a sealed box. As far as I know, there haven't been any issues. This was even before surveillance cameras (don't think I ever saw one there).
 
The following users thanked this post: pardo-bsso

Offline sleemanj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3051
  • Country: nz
  • Professional tightwad.
    • The electronics hobby components I sell.
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2022, 08:22:19 am »
over 60 or have a certain balance and are younger all checks are free.

You still use checks?  How many rods to the hogshead does your horseless carriage do?

~~~
EEVBlog Members - get yourself 10% discount off all my electronic components for sale just use the Buy Direct links and use Coupon Code "eevblog" during checkout.  Shipping from New Zealand, international orders welcome :-)
 

Online Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9336
  • Country: fi
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2022, 09:12:03 am »
In Finland, we have this thing called "crime victim payment", which is solely paid for committing victimless crimes such as driving normally and missing small clues about police's traffic traps which they use when in need of money.

The name is hilarious, but the purpose is to remind the people that there are no victimless crimes, even if it seems obvious to you that you committed such a thing. But the legislator knows better.
 
The following users thanked this post: pardo-bsso

Offline eugene

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: us
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2022, 01:10:42 pm »
A few years ago someone stole my debit card number and must have made counterfeit cards as they withdrew $1000 from my bank account (in several steps as there's a limit to how much can be withdrawn in one transaction.) I needed to file a report with the police, but the bank took the loss and put the money back into my account.

I thought it was a little odd that the bank was held responsible, but I realize that it's necessary incentive for them to protect my money. If they're able to charge fees to effectively cover those losses, does that mean they'll have less incentive to try to stop this sort of crime? In a sense, they're just collecting enough money from us to hand over to the criminals....

That, I think, is what's really wrong with these fees. If the crime is to be prevented, then the banks need to feel the incentive to stop it.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline magic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7453
  • Country: pl
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2022, 01:20:49 pm »
The bank nor the CC companies have no incentive to protect you.
They push the cost onto the seller who accepted the fraudulent payment.

That's why places which accept CC, particularly online, are extremely paranoid about fraud.

CC is generally a braindead idea ::)
But CC companies made a lot of money by ultimately extorting all buyers, whether using CC or not.
So I guess a smart idea too...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 01:25:57 pm by magic »
 

Offline pcprogrammer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4670
  • Country: nl
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2022, 01:29:24 pm »
In a sense, they're just collecting enough money from us to hand over to the criminals....

Who do you think the criminals are :-//

They are the stake holders in the banks to begin with :-DD

The story the bank told us was that the IT costs to protect against cyber crime were getting more and more, so they need to charge us, the account holders, to compensate for them making less money.

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7508
  • Country: va
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2022, 02:08:31 pm »
Quote
If the crime is to be prevented, then the banks need to feel the incentive to stop it.

But it wasn't the banks fault and they couldn't stop it no matter how big the virtual fine was. It's just that they have to pay for it, regardless.
 

Offline eugene

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: us
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2022, 02:33:34 pm »
In a sense, they're just collecting enough money from us to hand over to the criminals....

Who do you think the criminals are :-//

They are the stake holders in the banks to begin with :-DD

I don't understand. You can't be suggesting that the people that made a counterfeit debit card then used it to withdraw money from mu bank account were stake holders in the bank. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote
If the crime is to be prevented, then the banks need to feel the incentive to stop it.

But it wasn't the banks fault and they couldn't stop it no matter how big the virtual fine was. It's just that they have to pay for it, regardless.

That was my initial reaction too. But after more thought I decided that if anyone is going to stop this kind of theft it will have to be the banks, and they're not going to do it without incentive. Suppose someone forges a check in your name then goes into a bank to cash it. We expect the bank teller to make some effort to make sure that the check is legitimate and that the person cashing the check is who they claim to be. What if they just cashed the check without making any effort to verify the authenticity, then said "not our fault." Then added a monthly fee to cover the losses. That would be absurd. We do hold them responsible for those kind of crimes, and we need to hold them responsible for credit/debit card fraud.

It might be the case that the current system doesn't make it reasonable for them to stop credit/debit card fraud. So who's going to fix things? The people that end up paying for the fraud are the only one's with incentive to do so, and that needs to be the banks. There is no one else.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7508
  • Country: va
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2022, 03:01:22 pm »
Quote
What if they just cashed the check without making any effort to verify the authenticity

That would be their fault and they should cough up because of that.

Quote
So who's going to fix things? The people that end up paying for the fraud are the only one's with incentive to do so, and that needs to be the banks. There is no one else.

Quote
So who's going to fix things? The people that end up paying for the fraud are the only one's with incentive to do so, and that needs to be the banks. There is no one else.

"Not your fault but someone has to pay and it is you."
That's a bit of a slippery slope. Should your ISP pay because your PC got hacked? Someone has to make sure your PC is safe so give them a bit of incentive and make it them.
 

Online themadhippy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3266
  • Country: gb
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2022, 03:24:49 pm »
Banks are one of the biggest criminals and scammers,look at how many have been hit with fines for money laundering ,sanction  breaching ,insider trading and a whole host of other  dodgy practices  whilst being fully protected by the  law.Steal from a  bank and the full force of the law will be thrown at you,have your house burgled and you'll get a crime number,maybe.As for scams ,charging to hold the title deeds for a property that the bank holds the mortgage on , charging an extortionate fee to send a letter plus  over draft  fees due to bank making a payment twice,insisting you take out insurance that the policy holder isn't eligible for,telling you the account you've had for several years doesn't come with a debit card (even though you've had one since opening the account) and you need to switch to one with a monthly fee.Needless to say i dont trust em.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4670
  • Country: nl
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2022, 03:36:50 pm »
Who do you think the criminals are :-//

They are the stake holders in the banks to begin with :-DD

I don't understand. You can't be suggesting that the people that made a counterfeit debit card then used it to withdraw money from mu bank account were stake holders in the bank. That doesn't make any sense at all.

I was not suggesting that the real criminals that forged your card are stake holders in the bank. I was hinting at the fact that banks themselves are the criminals in the grand scheme, like themadhippy wrote above.

White collar criminals that tanked the economy several times over the centuries.

Just think back to 2008 when all those subprime mortgages collapsed.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 03:38:30 pm by pcprogrammer »
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7508
  • Country: va
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2022, 03:39:56 pm »
I am not saying they are trustworthy or without fault. But carrying the can for someone else still isn't right - I'm sure someone could find something I've done a bit dodgy, so it wouldn't be a problem blaming me, and making me pay, for something I couldn't affect?
 

Offline pcprogrammer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4670
  • Country: nl
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2022, 03:48:49 pm »
I think they are legally bound to reimburse you in these cases. The bank will most likely also try to get the money back if it is traceable. And they will have some judicial backup to get it done when needed.

But reading lawyer mumbo jumbo is tedious because the language they use is designed to keep the laymen out and their jobs secured. So who knows what the true rules are, other than the lawyers.

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7508
  • Country: va
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2022, 05:36:51 pm »
Quote
Just think back to 2008 when all those subprime mortgages collapsed.

Yes, and from a customer point of view that's a good thing. But from a "solve the crime" viewpoint I'm not so sure because the banks now deal with the crime, rather than the police, and if they're still making a profit after paying out, what do they care if the perpetrators aren't nicked? Granted, it's hard to catch 'em so might even cost more to try than to just put up with it, but it does kind of twist things.
 

Offline eugene

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: us
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2022, 06:35:57 pm »
Quote
What if they just cashed the check without making any effort to verify the authenticity

That would be their fault and they should cough up because of that.



Exactly my point! And if anyone is going to go to the effort to enforce secure CC/debit transactions, it will be them. I'm not going to do it. I don't want to depend on the government to mandate it. I don't want the retailers to be stuck with the cost because it's completely beyond their control (short of accepting cash only.) Who's left? Who's in a position to make it worth their while economically?
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline bdunham7

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8175
  • Country: us
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2022, 06:48:10 pm »
Exactly my point! And if anyone is going to go to the effort to enforce secure CC/debit transactions, it will be them. I'm not going to do it. I don't want to depend on the government to mandate it. I don't want the retailers to be stuck with the cost because it's completely beyond their control (short of accepting cash only.) Who's left? Who's in a position to make it worth their while economically?

Actually it was the retailers fault for while as they dragged their feet implementing the (more) secure chip and RFID card technology.  VISA and MC implemented a policy that any retailer not offering chip readers by a certain date would be fully responsible for any resulting fraud.  Also, as far as apportioning costs, different retailers pay significantly different merchant rates (% of transactions) depending on their business sector, average ticket and previous loss history.  Retailers are part of the show, not an innocent bystander. 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7508
  • Country: va
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2022, 06:50:08 pm »
Quote
Exactly my point!

OK, I see where you are coming from on that, now. But I think dbunham7 has answered appropriately :)
 

Offline pcprogrammer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4670
  • Country: nl
Re: It is here: crime tax!
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2022, 07:00:51 pm »
Actually it was the retailers fault for while as they dragged their feet implementing the (more) secure chip and RFID card technology.  VISA and MC implemented a policy that any retailer not offering chip readers by a certain date would be fully responsible for any resulting fraud.  Also, as far as apportioning costs, different retailers pay significantly different merchant rates (% of transactions) depending on their business sector, average ticket and previous loss history.  Retailers are part of the show, not an innocent bystander.

And on the end of the line, you the customer pays for it all.

And that is the stupidity of it all. Prices go up, so you need a raise in salary, but for the employer to pay that raise, he has to raise the prices. For a good deal of time after the big war it worked well because production costs dropped and purchasing power raised, but with what is happening at the moment that kite does not fly anymore. So where does it end?


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf