Author Topic: Its big! Car audio amplifier...  (Read 34455 times)

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Offline TMM

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2013, 08:44:41 am »
Lots of batteries. It's not uncommon for guys that run serious amps like this to have multiple (5+) 100Ah+ 12v batteries in parallel installed close to the amplifier. Cars that 'demo' their systems for extended periods often also have multiple 300A+ capable alternators as well.

The standard battery/alternator in most cars is only good for about 1500W in short bursts and about 500W continuous.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 08:47:59 am by TMM »
 

Online wraper

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2013, 08:45:59 am »
Some years ago I watched some show on Discovery. They changed alternator and entire wiring in a car just to drive that amplifier. Wires were like 2 cm in diameter, maybe even more.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2013, 08:54:09 am »
 

Offline TMM

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2013, 09:22:04 am »
^pffft fake.

8000W:


22500W:
 

Online wraper

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2013, 09:23:51 am »
^pffft fake.
Of course it is. But you get the idea  :)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:19:21 am by wraper »
 

Offline tized

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2013, 09:24:24 am »
But, see above, where do you find 20kW in a car?

I have a 60kW (peak) electrical system in my car, it is used to move the car (a hybrid), not the speakers.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2013, 09:33:44 am »
To run these two amps, I'd probably want six 130ah, 1000cca batteries as a minimum ;)

Car already has a 300+ amp alternator, but a second would help too!
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2013, 10:19:29 am »
There is no way that 10,000W DC-DC converter can do that with just that poxy fan - I mean if you even want to approach above 5kW output power (of a DC-DC) you start needing water cooling, just for the inductors!
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2013, 10:21:44 am »
Crazy

You guys are so gona wish you hadn't when you get older. Tinnitus can be become quite bad for some people in older age (I suffer from it myself), not to mention deafness.

It's just not worth it - something you really don't realise until it's too late (it's unreversable).
Tinnitus sucks.  :rant: Didn't get it from loud noise/music, but that doesn't mean much (born with it).  :'(
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2013, 10:23:05 am »
There is no way that 10,000W DC-DC converter can do that with just that poxy fan - I mean if you even want to approach above 5kW output power (of a DC-DC) you start needing water cooling, just for the inductors!

Good thing there are no inductors on the power supply section then! ;)
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2013, 10:30:47 am »
There is no way that 10,000W DC-DC converter can do that with just that poxy fan - I mean if you even want to approach above 5kW output power (of a DC-DC) you start needing water cooling, just for the inductors!

Good thing there are no inductors on the power supply section then! ;)

How on earth do you get +/-175V from 12V then? There are clearly six inductors on the input near the power input, which will form part of the DC-DC converter.  It looks like a nonisolated topology, so at least the efficiency will be a little higher, but there's no way in hell each of those inductors is going to do ~150A continuously (plus peak currenbt, losses) without overheating the core and cracking it. Or causing magnetic saturation, which will be extremely destructive to the power electronics. Completely inadequate air flow, too. If you do demand 10kW from it, it will fail quickly.

Not to mention, capacitor ripple current. Those look like Samyoung caps on the 12V side; nothing special, unlikely to have a high ripple current rating.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:32:44 am by tom66 »
 

Offline hedgewallace

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2013, 10:34:31 am »
Wow! They are some decent capacitors!

I have seen big capacitors in microwaves (probably a little bit bigger than these), but there are so many of them!
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2013, 10:35:31 am »
Yeah, I do not see that thing putting out 10kW, and if it seriously can, I'd like to see how they did it, because I seriously have something to learn about power electronics...

Sweet mother of god...
god doesnt have a mother. where did you hear that bollock? :scared:

Well yeah, if he doesn't exist he can't have a mother.... ;) (Let's not get started again :scared: :-DD) (Born and raised Catholic, still have the habits ;))
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2013, 10:40:06 am »
They aren't inductors, they're transformers, and each will easily handle the ~2kw they need to. Im guessing you haven't done much with high powered car amplifiers before ;)
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2013, 10:45:41 am »
They aren't inductors, they're transformers, and each will easily handle the ~2kw they need to. Im guessing you haven't done much with high powered car amplifiers before ;)

Oh dear, clearly you do not know about power electronics ;) (admittedly it is new to me too.) I'm not a car audio enthusiast, but that is irrelevant.

Transformers at high frequency are even more lossy than an inductor. Because you have that crappy, lossy magnetic core in the middle. There is no fking way that one of those poxy torodial coils is going to operate at 2kW for any length of time without serious cooling. And one cheap 12V computer fan does not count as sufficient cooling!

With the amount of power behind one of these amps I seriously would not want to be in the same room when (not if) it fails.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:47:39 am by tom66 »
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2013, 10:47:30 am »
You don't even know how big the cores are though... Lol
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2013, 10:48:11 am »
You don't even know how big the cores are though... Lol

I can estimate easily based on the surrounding size of other components, I'd say around 2~2.5 inches diameter and about an inch deep.

Looking closely at the topology, it appears to be flyback/push-pull type. One of the easiest to design, since you can basically put any components in and get an output (of course don't expect it to be efficient or reliable!)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:50:30 am by tom66 »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2013, 10:52:26 am »
For reference, the transformer in the top center of this power board is capable of operating around 280W continuously. A transformer capable of 2kW would need to be much larger, especially if it accepts a very low input voltage of 12V.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:55:05 am by tom66 »
 

Online Psi

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2013, 10:56:14 am »
Transformers at high frequency are even more lossy than an inductor. Because you have that crappy, lossy magnetic core in the middle. There is no fking way that one of those poxy torodial coils is going to operate at 2kW for any length of time without serious cooling.

If you look closely you can see the windings are made up of a very large number of smaller enameled wires to reduce the loss from skin effect.  Coupled that with a really good core material and the right switching frequency and a kW rating might work.

For reference, the transformer in the top center of this power board is capable of operating around 280W continuously. A transformer capable of 2kW would need to be much larger, especially if it accepts a very low input voltage of 12V.
That's a transformer from consumer electronics (made to be ultra cheap) and it's not even a toroid. Totally different thing.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 11:10:55 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2013, 11:04:39 am »
Quote from: tized
I have a 60kW (peak) electrical system in my car, it is used to move the car (a hybrid), not the speakers.
OK, yes hybrids and EV's do have that sort of electrical power kicking around but not, as you say, to drove the in-car hi-fi.

Quote from: TMM
Lots of batteries. It's not uncommon for guys that run serious amps like this to have multiple (5+) 100Ah+ 12v batteries in parallel installed close to the amplifier.
Hmmm, I can see that would supply the current, at least short term - I guess you'd easily get 2kA out of 5x100Ah batteries.

Mind you if a 20kW capable amp were not grotesque enough the sound system is starting to look like it will render any vehicle impractical for normal use. I mean, speakers to handle 20kW are not going to be either small or light and you've just added 150-200kg of batteries into the equation.  :o

Quote from: TMM
Cars that 'demo' their systems for extended periods often also have multiple 300A+ capable alternators as well.
You'd need to, to recharge that battery bank.

Quote from: TMM
The standard battery/alternator in most cars is only good for about 1500W in short bursts and about 500W continuous.
Pretty much what I said, I think.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2013, 12:36:50 pm »
Designed and built by Zenon in Korea. Should do just under 10,000 watts per amp into 1ohm. The first pic was too amps side by side ;)
100V@100A? :o :o :o

Quote
Mind you if a 20kW capable amp were not grotesque enough the sound system is starting to look like it will render any vehicle impractical for normal use.
I think that's sort of the point of this...
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2013, 12:43:03 pm »
Quote
I think that's sort of the point of this...
Ah, OK, hadn't heard of that :)

I suppose it's not surprising - given that humans are competitive by nature - that we should have contests to see who has the loudest sound system in their car.

It does explain the need to supply the load for only a fairly short term.
 

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2013, 12:43:45 pm »
So this is where Disaster Area have their roots... :D

Edit for great reference:

Quote
The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy notes that Disaster Area, a plutonium rock band from the Gagrakacka Mind Zones, are generally held to be not only the loudest rock band in the Galaxy, but in fact the loudest noise of any kind at all. Regular concert-goers judge that the best sound balance is usually to be heard from within large concrete bunkers some thirty-seven miles from the stage, whilst the musicians themselves play their instruments by remote control from within a heavily insulated spaceship which stays in orbit around the planet - or more frequently around a completely different planet.

Their songs are on the whole very simple and mostly follow the familiar theme of boy-being meets girl-being beneath a silvery moon, which then explodes for no adequately explored reason.

Many worlds have now banned their act altogether, sometimes for artistic reasons, but most commonly because the band's public address system contravenes local strategic arms limitation treaties.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 12:47:17 pm by ElectroIrradiator »
 

Offline GK

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2013, 01:21:24 pm »
Reminds me of this for some reason


Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

Offline TMM

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Re: Its big! Car audio amplifier...
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2013, 01:52:10 pm »
Crazy

You guys are so gona wish you hadn't when you get older. Tinnitus can be become quite bad for some people in older age (I suffer from it myself), not to mention deafness.

It's just not worth it - something you really don't realise until it's too late (it's unreversable).
Not all of us drive around jamming at full noise on a daily basis lol.
My system (pretty weak, 138.5dB) probably sees full volume for a few minutes a year at competitions - the rest of the time everything is virtually idling in sound quality mode :p

140dB bass isn't too damaging to hearing. It's probably about as damaging as sticking your head out the window of a moving car. 150dB will make your ears feel funny. 160dB is insta-damage.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 01:56:05 pm by TMM »
 


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