Author Topic: It's silicon, not silicone!  (Read 3446 times)

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Offline Illusionist

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It's silicon, not silicone!
« on: August 17, 2019, 12:32:04 pm »
Arghhh... this is a pet hate of mine! How many times do people talk about silicone when they mean silicon??? Even people I would think would know better. Sometimes, if we are talking about protecting things, it isn't immediately obvious which is intended if the talker gets it wrong.

Silicon = a semiconducting element, common in sand, glass and... electronic components. This is not silicone!

Silicone = A rubbery polymer comprising chains of siloxane, common in breast implants, household gap sealing and encapsulating components. Yes, it contains silicon in the molecule but it is not called silicon! This is the lesser of the two mistakes though, usually it is the first one, saying silicone when silicon is meant.

Ever since silicone fake boobs were invented, many people seem to have forgotten that silicon itself is a thing.

/Saturday's rant.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 01:00:06 pm »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2019, 01:01:28 pm »
 

Offline Illusionist

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2019, 01:07:51 pm »
I've seen it all now... how long before they apply that idea to male anatomy I wonder.

Fortunately, my wife and I are quite happy with each other's... attributes  ;)
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2019, 01:38:20 pm »
I've seen it all now... how long before they apply that idea to male anatomy I wonder.
Gadgets that claim to promote the growth of muscle without exercise have existed for many years, no idea if they're actually effective. (And strictly speaking, growing muscle isn't just for guys.)
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2019, 01:45:33 pm »
I've seen it all now... how long before they apply that idea to male anatomy I wonder.

Fortunately, my wife and I are quite happy with each other's... attributes  ;)
Good for you both learnt to be happy with what you've got instead of what you want, but that's a bit of information nobody wanted to know.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 01:47:23 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2019, 01:59:11 pm »
Indeed. :D

Anyway, I agree with the annoying misuse of silicon/e.

That said and to be fair, in all the other languages I know (admittedly just a few, but hey), those two words are significantly different, so the fuck-up doesn't happen (unless it comes from less-educated people influenced by the english "silicon" word... for instance well known by almost everyone in the world as in "silicon valley" ;D )

Eg:

For silicon:
French: Silicium
German: Silizium
Italian: Silicio

For silicone:
French: Silicone
German: Silikone
Italian: Siliconi

English: 0 :P
 

Offline Tom45

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2019, 02:24:39 pm »
Something to help remember the difference.



 
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Offline German_EE

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2019, 04:28:28 pm »
What doesn't help are people's accents. I have heard many times people talking about "silicone chips".
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2019, 06:11:52 pm »
For silicon:
Finnish: Pii
(And yes, Silicon Valley is Piilaakso in Finnish.)

For silicone:
Finnish: Silikoni

I keep telling people they only need to switch to Finnish to get rid of all these problems, including gendered pronouns, but they never listen.   :-//
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2019, 06:35:08 pm »
I keep telling people they only need to switch to Finnish to get rid of all these problems, including gendered pronouns, but they never listen.   :-//

Problem is, some people heard that once all switched, humans will be finished.


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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2019, 07:30:29 pm »
Problem is, some people heard that once all switched, humans will be finished.
My preferred finish is beeswax and food-grade mineral oil mix.  I don't see how that'd be a problem?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2019, 07:46:50 pm »
Problem is, some people heard that once all switched, humans will be finished.
My preferred finish is beeswax and food-grade mineral oil mix.  I don't see how that'd be a problem?

I guess you don't like silicone-based coatings. Or do you? ;D
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2019, 08:31:26 pm »
What doesn't help are people's accents. I have heard many times people talking about "silicone chips".
It doesn't help that high power silicon is often potted in silicone (cohesive gel?) to minimize thermal expansion stress on the bond wires.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2019, 08:50:11 pm »
Problem is, some people heard that once all switched, humans will be finished.
My preferred finish is beeswax and food-grade mineral oil mix.  I don't see how that'd be a problem?
I guess you don't like silicone-based coatings. Or do you? ;D
Not really as coatings; they're a bitch to clean up.  I am, however, looking for really soft silicone to be used for bumpers and vibration dampeners; the softer the better.  I often use gasket silicone (slightly softer than typical caulking silicone -- and before you ask, yes, my gaskets are fine, haven't blown any) but it is too firm for vibration isolation for really quiet fans.  I'd like to find some really soft silicone that cures solid, but as soft as possible.  I prefer platinum curing ones over acid curing ones, obviously.  Any hints?
 

Offline Illusionist

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2019, 09:31:51 pm »
Sikasil WS-290 is very low modulus. If that's still too firm, the silicone gel used in keyboard and mouse wrist rests is really soft - maybe investigate what they use.
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2019, 09:50:40 pm »
 

Offline Illusionist

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2019, 01:32:33 am »
On a semi-serious, related note, I used to be into serious strength/body building. As in, trained three times a day, six days a week. I'm well qualified in it too and was a personal trainer specializing in athletic and martial arts specific training. That was all in a previous life, these days I'm fat and lazy*.

I used to use a technique called visualization, augmented with static tensioning/flexing and, well, just 'feeling' myself. Visualization is a fancy way of saying, "imagine your biceps are really big, and the body will respond and grow them more". It's a bit more than just imagining, but you get the point.

You might be skeptical, but I'm convinced that it worked, enough that I did it for several years. I'm certainly not one to believe in 'quack' theories or wasting my time. I could actually measure the difference, and I hadn't changed my weight training routines.

A similar technique could be applied to anything the body can grow, I think. Breast tissue included. It does take persistence and faith though.

*Fat and lazy even though I do still own my own Versaclimber LX, possibly one of the most intense combined cardio/muscular exercise machines ever devised. It's currently in the front room, being used to hang hats on.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2019, 07:44:07 am »
You might be skeptical, but I'm convinced that it worked, enough that I did it for several years.

The three-times-a-day physical training might also have influenced the outcome?  :P
 

Online Jacon

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2019, 10:06:04 am »
Polish translation for Nominal Animal's post:

For silicon:
Polish: Krzem
(And yes, Silicon Valley is Dolina Krzemowa in Polish.)

For silicone:
Polish: Silikon

 

Offline Falkra

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2019, 03:05:33 pm »
And here is a silly cone :



 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2019, 04:23:54 pm »
Indeed. :D

Anyway, I agree with the annoying misuse of silicon/e.

That said and to be fair, in all the other languages I know (admittedly just a few, but hey), those two words are significantly different, so the fuck-up doesn't happen (unless it comes from less-educated people influenced by the english "silicon" word... for instance well known by almost everyone in the world as in "silicon valley" ;D )

Eg:

For silicon:
French: Silicium
German: Silizium
Italian: Silicio

For silicone:
French: Silicone
German: Silikone
Italian: Siliconi

English: 0 :P
For silicone, you’ve confused singulars and plurals.

English: silicone/silicones
French: silicone/silicones
German: Silikon/Silikone
Italian: silicone/siliconi

I deliberately eliminated the initial capital to show German’s capitalization of nouns.
 
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Offline Gromitt

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2019, 07:48:12 am »
In Swedish:

Silicon = Kisel (Silicon Valley = Kiseldalen in Swedish)

Silicone = Silikon

 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2019, 09:59:30 am »
In Swedish:

Silicon = Kisel (Silicon Valley = Kiseldalen in Swedish)

Silicone = Silikon
Yep, this is cognate to the German root Kiesel, an archaic word for silicon. (It lives on in words like Kieselgur 'diatomaceous earth'.) Kiesel itself is related to the modern German word Kies 'gravel'.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2019, 10:51:18 am »
Yep, this is cognate to the German root Kiesel, an archaic word for silicon. (It lives on in words like Kieselgur 'diatomaceous earth'.) Kiesel itself is related to the modern German word Kies 'gravel'.

We still have the word "Kiesel" in modern German as well; it denotes a single, small, rounded stone. "Kieselstein" is used synonymously. "Kiesel" on its own might be more prevalent in Northern Germany?
 
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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2019, 03:15:45 pm »
I've seen it all now... how long before they apply that idea to male anatomy I wonder.

Fortunately, my wife and I are quite happy with each other's... attributes  ;)

Mrs GreyWoolfe's attributes are more than sufficient.  The stem cell bra would be like gilding the lily.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2019, 03:18:45 pm »
Mrs GreyWoolfe's attributes are more than sufficient.  The stem cell bra would be like gilding the lily.
What's with people suddenly ensuring us their or their partner's "attributes" are sufficient? We're really not interested. If you insist on telling us the things we don't want to know we're an evidence driven bunch and will require photographic evidence to have a proper and factual discussion about it.
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2019, 03:31:44 pm »
Mrs GreyWoolfe's attributes are more than sufficient.  The stem cell bra would be like gilding the lily.
What's with people suddenly ensuring us their or their partner's "attributes" are sufficient? We're really not interested. If you insist on telling us the things we don't want to know we're an evidence driven bunch and will require photographic evidence to have a proper and factual discussion about it.

Her first husband pulled sh!t like that on her.  If I tried it, she would gut me like a stuck pig. :-DD
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2019, 03:41:00 pm »
Her first husband pulled sh!t like that on her.  If I tried it, she would gut me like a stuck pig. :-DD
Exactly. It's best to keep out private lives to ourselves.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2019, 07:00:51 pm »
Exactly. It's best to keep out private lives to ourselves.
I disagree.  Share as much as yourself as you wish, but not of anyone else, including your partner; and do not expect anyone to care.  Oversharing is embareassing, but oh so liberating.

My personal pronouns are phlfblblbl and <snort>.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2019, 07:24:47 pm »
Gadgets that claim to promote the growth of muscle without exercise have existed for many years, no idea if they're actually effective. (And strictly speaking, growing muscle isn't just for guys.)
My Aunt had a thing in the 60's that had a 90 VAC transformer, on/off timer that cycled every few seconds and a bunch of pots that allowed you to deliver electrical current to conductive pads.  I told her the thing was a DEATH TRAP!  Rig the pads wrong and you'd get 90 V 60 Hz power across your heart.  It was called a relax-a-cizer or thereabouts.
I can't imagine that sticking your fingers in a light socket 2 seconds on/2 seconds off would be really "relaxing".

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Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2019, 07:25:30 pm »
Yep, this is cognate to the German root Kiesel, an archaic word for silicon. (It lives on in words like Kieselgur 'diatomaceous earth'.) Kiesel itself is related to the modern German word Kies 'gravel'.

We still have the word "Kiesel" in modern German as well; it denotes a single, small, rounded stone. "Kieselstein" is used synonymously. "Kiesel" on its own might be more prevalent in Northern Germany?
Thanks! Though I’m fluent in German, geology is definitely not one of my areas of expertise, and definitely not one where I have a strong Fingerspitzengefühl! :p

 Maybe the German Wikipedia page for Kiesel needs to be changed to make it more obvious that Kiesel is still used as a synonym for Kieselsteine.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2019, 07:30:42 pm »
I disagree.  Share as much as yourself as you wish, but not of anyone else, including your partner; and do not expect anyone to care.  Oversharing is embareassing, but oh so liberating.

My personal pronouns are phlfblblbl and <snort>.
I have to disagree. I don't think sharing information about you and your partner's private bits is very suitable for an electronics forum, especially when nobody's asking. Or maybe I'll test how tolerant we really are by posting some highly detailed photos.  ;D
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 07:34:11 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2019, 07:57:48 pm »
I disagree.  Share as much as yourself as you wish, but not of anyone else, including your partner; and do not expect anyone to care.  Oversharing is embareassing, but oh so liberating.

My personal pronouns are phlfblblbl and <snort>.
I have to disagree. I don't think sharing information about you and your partner's private bits
Hey!  I said, but not of anyone else.

Feel free to post pictures of your own private bits, but don't expect anyone to care; most likely, a moderator will just delete it.  In any case, it is just your own embareassing, and so completely up to you.  You might be considered stupid, troll, exhibitionist pervert, or a garden-variety idiot; but not evil or harming anyone else.  :P

Posting pictures of anyone else, or describing their private parts, is not okay at all.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 08:00:11 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2019, 07:59:40 pm »
Hey!  I said, but not of anyone else.

Feel free to post pictures of your own private bits, but don't expect anyone to care; most likely, a moderator will just delete it.  In any case, it is just your own embareassing, and so completely up to you.  You might be considered stupid, troll, or an idiot, but not evil.

Posting pictures of anyone else, or describing their private parts, is not okay at all.
Talking about your or your partner's privates is as welcome as me posting highly detailed pictures of myself.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2019, 08:09:55 pm »
Talking about your or your partner's privates is as welcome as me posting highly detailed pictures of myself.
That's your opinion.  I just stated mine.  I replied to you, because you either misread me, or insinuated I meant something other than what I wrote.

Sure, I could be wrong, but even as someone that might be prone to oversharing (when relevant!), I draw a hard line at sharing stuff about anyone else.
That is never right.

Your response to my opinion eradicated that line, and obliterated the difference between what is proper/acceptable socially, and what is proper/acceptable ethically; thus completely missing what I was trying to express.
I am saying that sharing stuff about yourself is ethically okay, but sharing stuff about your partner is not okay.  Ever, never without their explicit permission.

Obviously, sharing pictures of ones privates is not proper socially on a technical forum; but some forms of oversharing, say describing ones professional history just to explain the basis of ones opinion, is acceptable even on a technical forum.  Unnecessary, slightly embarrassing, but technically acceptable.  That's the kind of oversharing I was recommending.

Finally, embareassing is just a pun I'm internally giggling at, because me fail English, and I cannot remember exactly how to write "embarrassing".  As a Finnish speaker, doubled consonants ought to sound double-length, so getting the number of r's and s's right is kinda hard.  In my opinion, baring ones ass is humiliating.  I've never been a fan of "mooning" or "twerking"; they just make me cringe.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 08:11:50 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2019, 08:10:59 pm »
We still have the word "Kiesel" in modern German as well; it denotes a single, small, rounded stone. "Kieselstein" is used synonymously. "Kiesel" on its own might be more prevalent in Northern Germany?
Thanks! Though I’m fluent in German, geology is definitely not one of my areas of expertise, and definitely not one where I have a strong Fingerspitzengefühl! :p
 Maybe the German Wikipedia page for Kiesel needs to be changed to make it more obvious that Kiesel is still used as a synonym for Kieselsteine.

The following pertinent poem comes to mind: ;)
https://www.deutschelyrik.de/das-aesthetische-wiesel-1899.html 

OK, not very modern German, it's more than 100 years old now. If you have not come across them yet, Morgenstern's "Galgenlieder" (a small volume which includes that poem) are certainly worth reading, if you enjoy language and slightly offbeat and silly stuff!
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2019, 11:16:35 pm »
My Aunt had a thing in the 60's that had a 90 VAC transformer, on/off timer that cycled every few seconds and a bunch of pots that allowed you to deliver electrical current to conductive pads.  I told her the thing was a DEATH TRAP!  Rig the pads wrong and you'd get 90 V 60 Hz power across your heart.  It was called a relax-a-cizer or thereabouts.
I can't imagine that sticking your fingers in a light socket 2 seconds on/2 seconds off would be really "relaxing".
Sounds like a gadget to simulate what a telecom tech would feel in the old days if he touched a phone line that happened to be ringing. (I wouldn't be surprised if the transformer and timer were in fact designed for an old office phone system.)
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Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2019, 12:01:11 pm »
We still have the word "Kiesel" in modern German as well; it denotes a single, small, rounded stone. "Kieselstein" is used synonymously. "Kiesel" on its own might be more prevalent in Northern Germany?
Thanks! Though I’m fluent in German, geology is definitely not one of my areas of expertise, and definitely not one where I have a strong Fingerspitzengefühl! :p
 Maybe the German Wikipedia page for Kiesel needs to be changed to make it more obvious that Kiesel is still used as a synonym for Kieselsteine.

The following pertinent poem comes to mind: ;)
https://www.deutschelyrik.de/das-aesthetische-wiesel-1899.html 

OK, not very modern German, it's more than 100 years old now. If you have not come across them yet, Morgenstern's "Galgenlieder" (a small volume which includes that poem) are certainly worth reading, if you enjoy language and slightly offbeat and silly stuff!
Nice! Outside of Germany, it's available on http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33541
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2019, 01:41:45 pm »
This is a Dan Quayle "potatoe" moment:

 

Offline jmelson

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2019, 07:27:02 pm »
Sounds like a gadget to simulate what a telecom tech would feel in the old days if he touched a phone line that happened to be ringing. (I wouldn't be surprised if the transformer and timer were in fact designed for an old office phone system.)
Nope, it was all new stuff, supposed to allow you to get rid of flabby arms and thighs without work.  But, of course, if you actually turned it up to where it was producing measurable results, it would probably be SERIOUSLY painful.  It had several sets, at least 4, of pads so you could do both arms and legs at one time.  That was all on one transformer secondary, so it would be possible to wire the pads so it was delivering a jolt across the chest!  That's what made my hair stand up straight - without touching the damn thing!

I'm guessing it would have cost a couple thousand $ at today's prices.

Jon
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2019, 09:33:05 pm »
It was called a relax-a-cizer or thereabouts.
Relax-A-Cizor.  FDA banned it in 1970 as potentially unhealthy and dangerous to users.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2019, 09:43:48 pm »
if you actually turned it up to where it was producing measurable results, it would probably be SERIOUSLY painful.

Actual electrical muscle stimulation units do exist and work just fine.  While the muscle contraction itself can be painful (depending on why you're using EMS in the first place), you don't feel any electrical zaps per se. (Well, I didn't, when trying one a couple of decades ago, just out of interest.)  The proper units are about the size of a thick hardcover book.  The units I've seen work on batteries (maybe chargeables nowadays?): not much energy is involved, as proper stimulation is all about the waveform.  The proper waveforms depend on the muscle type being stimulated, too.

While there have been "working" devices (the electrode pads causing rhythmic contractions of the muscles underneath) for decades, the proper ones with clinically verified results are surprisingly complex (and use complicated waveform "programs").
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2019, 12:00:36 am »
Actual electrical muscle stimulation units do exist and work just fine.  While the muscle contraction itself can be painful (depending on why you're using EMS in the first place), you don't feel any electrical zaps per se. (Well, I didn't, when trying one a couple of decades ago, just out of interest.)  The proper units are about the size of a thick hardcover book.  The units I've seen work on batteries (maybe chargeables nowadays?): not much energy is involved, as proper stimulation is all about the waveform.  The proper waveforms depend on the muscle type being stimulated, too.

While there have been "working" devices (the electrode pads causing rhythmic contractions of the muscles underneath) for decades, the proper ones with clinically verified results are surprisingly complex (and use complicated waveform "programs").
What kind of bandwidth does it involve? I would expect something similar to a portable audio player.

I remember reading that one mechanism behind how exercise works to improve fitness is that bone is slightly piezoelectric and generates a small current.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2019, 01:25:42 am »
What kind of bandwidth does it involve? I would expect something similar to a portable audio player.
It looks like the practical range is between DC and a few kilohertz, with the envelope shape being at least as important as the carrier frequency.  I don't know the details (biophysics is not my field), but a multichannel audio player sounds about right to me, with a funky output stage.  Or maybe an old-style synthesizer, with a programmable oscillator and ADSR envelope control.

This PDF and this blog post might be useful to get a rough idea on what kind of waveforms we're talking about.  It seems to me that the exact shapes of the waveforms are the kind of stuff companies selling these devices keep as proprietary as possible, especially when both muscle fiber types are targeted.

I suspect this is one of the fields that is so close to quackery, researchers don't want to leap too far out of fear of being labeled, and keep to the safe side of aspects to study.
Like us physicists, when it comes to any kind of esoteric phenomena.  Make one oddball suggestion for a research subject, and you get labeled and laughed at, regardless of whether that suggestion makes sense or not.  At the same time, solar fricking roadways get funded left and right, and almost nobody blinks an eye.  Funny world, ours.
 

Online KL27x

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2019, 09:39:40 pm »
Silicon vs Silicone. Big difference.
https://youtu.be/jM2_LBvzg6c?t=49
Explained in 3 seconds.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2019, 11:51:03 am »
WOW !!....  Putting aside boobs, wobbly dicks, and Politically Correct prudes......

I've stated somewhere before, that 'English' is generally not a unique Language, Per-Se'.
It is a mixture of 'bastardizations', 'misinterpretations', and 'pseudo-translations', from mainly
Latin, Greek, French, German & many other core languages, especially when it comes to such
technical/chemical/scientific words that 'appear' to be our language.
I was going to type 50 or so examples, but decided it would be futile.  :)
 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2019, 08:48:00 pm »
WOW !!....  Putting aside boobs, wobbly dicks, and Politically Correct prudes......

I've stated somewhere before, that 'English' is generally not a unique Language, Per-Se'.
It is a mixture of 'bastardizations', 'misinterpretations', and 'pseudo-translations', from mainly
Latin, Greek, French, German & many other core languages, especially when it comes to such
technical/chemical/scientific words that 'appear' to be our language.
I was going to type 50 or so examples, but decided it would be futile.  :)
<linguist>
That is, of course, largely nonsense, insofar as every language borrows from other languages (save perhaps for isolated languages on islands with no outside contact).

English is somewhat special in that such a huge part of its vocabulary comes from a single source: French (via the Norman conquest). But in many cases, perhaps most, we didn't lose our original words, but rather relegated the "native" words and the French imports to different meanings. (Hence why "kitchen" and "cuisine" aren't synonyms in English. Contrast this with French and German, which each have one word each (cuisine and Küche, resp.), which encompasses both meanings.)

But to be clear, the language processes at work here are absolutely universal. You will find them at work in every language.

For example, it's common for borrowed words to take on a restricted meaning, even if the word was general in the source language: "Cuisine" for "the food of a culture/people/place". "Sombrero" to mean a Mexican straw hat. "Kielbasa" for Polish sausage. (The key being that in their source languages, these words simply mean "kitchen", "hat", and "sausage", with no further specificity.)

Some examples of English words borrowed into German: "Port" to mean computer ports (exclusively). "Sound" as slang for music. "Manager" to mean C-level executive (expressly not encompassing what in English we'd call middle and lower management).
</linguist>
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2019, 04:17:29 am »
For example, it's common for borrowed words to take on a restricted meaning, even if the word was general in the source language: "Cuisine" for "the food of a culture/people/place". "Sombrero" to mean a Mexican straw hat. "Kielbasa" for Polish sausage. (The key being that in their source languages, these words simply mean "kitchen", "hat", and "sausage", with no further specificity.)
I wonder if this one is just a coincidence, or if Finns are very particular about their bread.  :P
 

Offline Gromitt

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2019, 11:41:19 am »

That is, of course, largely nonsense, insofar as every language borrows from other languages (save perhaps for isolated languages on islands with no outside contact).


Icelandic has no borrowed words, so not every language. And you can't say that Iceland has no outside contact.
 

Offline mfro

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2019, 01:00:50 pm »
I can't imagine that sticking your fingers in a light socket 2 seconds on/2 seconds off would be really "relaxing".

Not relaxing, but did you measure before and after?
 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2019, 07:50:31 am »

That is, of course, largely nonsense, insofar as every language borrows from other languages (save perhaps for isolated languages on islands with no outside contact).

Icelandic has no borrowed words, so not every language. And you can't say that Iceland has no outside contact.
That is, of course, also untrue. Icelandic has plenty of them, despite efforts to prevent borrowing. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_vocabulary
https://www.visindavefur.is/svar.php?id=4796
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_purism_in_Icelandic#Loanwords
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2019, 08:08:36 am »
Then there are words like kuningas.  The current understanding of the etymology is that it was borrowed from proto-Germanic kuningaz, which then linguistically evolved into cyning/king/kening/köning/könning/konung/kung etc. in languages with Germanic origin, while Finns stayed with the old form.  So, while kuningas is older than king/kung/König etc., it has the same root, and is a loan word.

No wonder so many linguists I know are utterly batty: the subject they study is an utter mess.

Which is also why I think OP is correct that the distinction between silicon and silicone is important: language is already so messy and incoherent, that it is difficult to get the message across without significant errors and mistakes.  Being lazy, and making that even harder by not bothering to use the correct words, is just evil.
We are not telepaths: we do not know what others think, we can only read or hear what they say (unless we see them face-to-face, which helps a lot).
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2019, 12:19:06 pm »
WOW !!....  Putting aside boobs, wobbly dicks, and Politically Correct prudes......

I've stated somewhere before, that 'English' is generally not a unique Language, Per-Se'.
It is a mixture of 'bastardizations', 'misinterpretations', and 'pseudo-translations', from mainly
Latin, Greek, French, German & many other core languages, especially when it comes to such
technical/chemical/scientific words that 'appear' to be our language.
I was going to type 50 or so examples, but decided it would be futile.  :)
<linguist>
That is, of course, largely nonsense, insofar as every language borrows from other languages (save perhaps for isolated languages on islands with no outside contact). . . . .

The point I was making, (and I missed one category, being 'Anglicized' words), was mainly to do
with Technical/Scientific words, of which very little are actually English per-se'.  So 'Silicon' & 'Silicone',
although we individually think we 'know' the difference, is Anglicized from 'stock' languages.
"Bromine" is an Anglicized Greek word, "Bromos", (correct me, ok), meaning "Stinky Stuff".
The 'E' on the end of a lot of words is complex. See the following... 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_orthography
As long as we know what someone means, we'll get by...   ;D
 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2019, 01:26:00 pm »
Technical jargon (in any language) tends to originate in the languages the disciplines were first described in. So psychology and mathematics are full of German words, culinary arts use tons of French words, music uses Italian words, and now, computing uses English words.

Again, it's a universal process, nothing in any way unique to English.
 
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Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2019, 06:15:28 pm »
Absolutely right Tooki;

That is the reason that the word Tsunami comes from Japan, which is regularly battered by them.

Also....Technology has a way of causing acronyms to become nouns. Some of them quite common.
There are plenty of examples: Laser, Radar, Led, et al.

And some massively powerful entities may actually generate other words like; Google it! Very seldom one would say: Perform a internet-wide search to find your answer.

When prompted how one found a certain piece of information, the response is very likely "I Googled it", even though you may have used Bing or DuckDuckGo.  ;D
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2019, 08:03:08 pm »
And some massively powerful entities may actually generate other words like; Google it! Very seldom one would say: Perform a internet-wide search to find your answer.
When prompted how one found a certain piece of information, the response is very likely "I Googled it", even though you may have used Bing or DuckDuckGo.  ;D

Too bad AltaVista did not get known quite widely enough, that would have made for a much nicer word for "internet search".  :)
On the other hand I'm glad Hotbot did not get the honor of coining the term...
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2019, 11:39:20 am »
Technical jargon (in any language) tends to originate in the languages the disciplines were first described in. So psychology and mathematics are full of German words, culinary arts use tons of French words, music uses Italian words, and now, computing uses English words.
Again, it's a universal process, nothing in any way unique to English.
Absolutely correct!  (Regarding 'English'). However, I don't think (?) Germans were using French/Italian words
in their main-stream language, over the centuries, or Visa Versa... (That's Latin  :) ).

And....
Absolutely right Tooki;
That is the reason that the word Tsunami comes from Japan, which is regularly battered by them.
Also....Technology has a way of causing acronyms to become nouns. Some of them quite common.
There are plenty of examples: Laser, Radar, Led, et al.
And some massively powerful entities may actually generate other words like; Google it! Very seldom one would say: Perform a internet-wide search to find your answer.
When prompted how one found a certain piece of information, the response is very likely "I Googled it", even though you may have used Bing or DuckDuckGo.  ;D

Haha... Yep. Again that's what I mean. (Like 'Tsunami' etc.).  I'm sure also, that virtually every country
would have heard of and used the word, "Laser", but in THEIR language may not know that it is an
acronym for "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation", in English...

And yes, we now globally say... "Google it", like some might say... "Hoover the Carpets". (A brand name).
( "DuckDuckGo"... W.T.F. !!  ;D    Re: 'Google'......  I think I said here once, that...
At Google's inception years ago, in the proverbial 'shed', one asked the other... "Hey, what's the name of
that really big number with lots of zeroes ??". He was answered... "That's a 'Googol' ". . .
(A 'Googol' is 10 to the power of 100). The other guy THOUGHT he said 'Google', and that's what stuck!!!   8)
 

Offline mfro

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2019, 04:03:32 pm »
... Absolutely correct!  (Regarding 'English'). However, I don't think (?) Germans were using French/Italian words...

I can't say much about Italian (but think virtually every language borrowed 'Spaghetti' and 'Maccaroni'), but there are lots of loanwords both ways between French and German (although Germany doesn't have an official institute to save the language from foreign influence as France has).

'Biedermeier', 'Jugendstil', 'Dachshund' but also 'Blitzkrieg', 'chabraque' and 'choucroute' (Sauerkraut).

'Atelier', 'Allee', 'Groteske', 'pedantisch', 'Plattitüde' and 'Präservativ' only to name a few.

 
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Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2019, 12:20:20 am »
Technical jargon (in any language) tends to originate in the languages the disciplines were first described in. So psychology and mathematics are full of German words, culinary arts use tons of French words, music uses Italian words, and now, computing uses English words.
Again, it's a universal process, nothing in any way unique to English.
Absolutely correct!  (Regarding 'English'). However, I don't think (?) Germans were using French/Italian words
in their main-stream language
, over the centuries, or Visa Versa... (That's Latin  :) ).
You'd be absolutely wrong in thinking that. All of those languages include words borrowed from each other at all periods in time.

English isn't nearly as "special" as people think it is. IMHO, where English really is unique is the sounds it uses; English uses tons and tons of sounds that are comparatively rare in world languages, while almost entirely avoiding the vowel sounds that are the most common worldwide.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2019, 10:59:19 am »
Technical jargon (in any language) tends to originate in the languages the disciplines were first described in. So psychology and mathematics are full of German words, culinary arts use tons of French words, music uses Italian words, and now, computing uses English words.
Again, it's a universal process, nothing in any way unique to English.
Absolutely correct!  (Regarding 'English'). However, I don't think (?) Germans were using French/Italian words
in their main-stream language
, over the centuries, or Visa Versa... (That's Latin  :) ).
You'd be absolutely wrong in thinking that. All of those languages include words borrowed from each other at all periods in time.

English isn't nearly as "special" as people think it is. IMHO, where English really is unique is the sounds it uses; English uses tons and tons of sounds that are comparatively rare in world languages, while almost entirely avoiding the vowel sounds that are the most common worldwide.
Ok mate. I don't think English is 'Special' as such, but what I mean is that it is not a 'root' language.
(Like Latin/Greek/German/french). Of course any language can/does have roots to other languages, I
simply believe that 'English' is MUCH MORE so derived from others, and is much 'newer'...
Yes, in English, we don't have the same emphasis on certain VOWELS etc, like the German 'Umlaut',
where vowels like a, e, o etc have 2 dots above them, or French vowels with a 'dash' above, which
obviously change the pronunciation etc. However, that is not what I am saying.
P.S.  Some countries/areas abhor certain 'vowels'. In Wales, they use 'Conwy', not 'Conway' etc etc..
 

Online Yansi

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2019, 11:08:30 am »
Indeed. :D

Anyway, I agree with the annoying misuse of silicon/e.

That said and to be fair, in all the other languages I know (admittedly just a few, but hey), those two words are significantly different, so the fuck-up doesn't happen (unless it comes from less-educated people influenced by the english "silicon" word... for instance well known by almost everyone in the world as in "silicon valley" ;D )

Eg:

For silicon:
French: Silicium
German: Silizium
Italian: Silicio

For silicone:
French: Silicone
German: Silikone
Italian: Siliconi

English: 0 :P

At least we have křemík and silikon^-^ ^-^ ^-^
 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2019, 08:57:00 pm »
Ok mate. I don't think English is 'Special' as such, but what I mean is that it is not a 'root' language. (Like Latin/Greek/German/french).
Latin and Greek did have special status as scholarly languages, but they had surprisingly little impact on everyday speech. (E.g. everyday Latin evolved into Italian.) Don't be surprised if English is viewed similarly in the future, since it's the overwhelming language of academia in the 20th (and so far, 21st) century, having supplanted French.

Of course any language can/does have roots to other languages, I simply believe that 'English' is MUCH MORE so derived from others, and is much 'newer'...
Which would be dead wrong. Old English is at least as old as Old German and Old French, possibly older. (Wiki states Old English as starting in the 5th century A.D., 7th century for Old German, 8th century for Old French.)

No (natural) language emerged from nowhere*. EVERY language, including Latin and Greek, evolved from earlier languages.

And I've already addressed English's addition of the Norman French vocabulary to expand, not replace, its native vocabulary.


*OK, not strictly true, insofar as we know of cases where feral children grew up without any contact whatsoever with any existing language, and so the kids automatically developed a language of their own. The human brain is, quite simply, built for language, and will generate one (or just the missing parts) if no existing language is learned.


Yes, in English, we don't have the same emphasis on certain VOWELS etc, like the German 'Umlaut',
where vowels like a, e, o etc have 2 dots above them, or French vowels with a 'dash' above, which
obviously change the pronunciation etc.
The German umlaut and the accents in French, Spanish, Italian, etc. perform fundamentally different functions. The umlaut does not have anything to do with placing emphasis. It actually changes the sound to a totally different vowel, hence its name "umlaut" which means something like "sound change". (In fact, the umlaut symbol evolved as shorthand for a superscript 'e' in blackletter script. Indeed, in modern German, when umlauts aren't available (like in foreign computer databases, or to avoid excess height in all-caps), they simply insert an e instead, e.g. the last name Müller becomes Mueller, or a NICHT ÖFFNEN sign might become NICHT OEFFNEN.)

But spelling is not what I'm talking about anyway. I'm talking about speech SOUNDS. And English is a real weirdo in that regard:

We use the comparatively rare "th" sounds, the extremely rare rhotic "r", and we allow fairly long sequences of consonants within a syllable (like the -k-s-th-s sequence in "sixths", a single-syllable word). We do not have the "simple" a/e/i/o/u sounds most languages use -- we instead have the diphthongs "ey", "ee", "ai", "ouw", "yew". And a bunch of other vowels not used in most languages, like the 'e' sound in "met" or "let", the 'a' sound in "cat", the 'u' sounds in "put" and "putt", etc.

If you want to hear what English without diphthongs sounds like, listen to Scottish English, which notably dispenses with most of them.

However, that is not what I am saying.
So what are you saying, other than repeating your very mistaken belief that English is a young language cobbled together from others, which is simply not supported by any kind of linguistic evidence?

As I've said multiple times, the only thing where English is a bit unique (at least among European languages) is how we adopted nearly the entire Norman French vocabulary to expand (not replace!!) our original Germanic one.

P.S.  Some countries/areas abhor certain 'vowels'. In Wales, they use 'Conwy', not 'Conway' etc etc..
Ummm... so you're recognizing the existence of accents and dialects?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 09:00:48 pm by tooki »
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2019, 09:20:08 pm »
The clusterfest most languages are can only be made worse when laymen try to be linguists. It’s complicated material as it encompasses hacks and shortcuts and needless extensions and flourishes which seem to serve no other purpose than to torture people who study them. Thare a lot of “false friends” where not knowing your stuff will lead to very sensible but utterly wrong conclusions.
 
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Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2019, 12:34:27 am »
Indeed. I studied linguistics as my minor at university*, so while I’m certainly not a true expert, I do know a great deal more than laypersons. It’s often irritating how laypersons have such strong beliefs about language, usually while knowing little to nothing about how language actually works...



*I was only a few classes away from a double major in linguistics (together with my information systems major), but some were offered so infrequently (only once every 2 years) that it would have delayed graduation by a year and a half, so I just kept it as my minor.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2019, 12:00:36 pm »
Tooki . . .  You sound very knowledgeable on the subject, and I truly commend you.
However, (mainly to someone else...), I never claimed to be an expert linguist,  by any stretch.
You did, though, misinterpret what I was basically saying, regarding a few points.
Firstly, when I used the word 'emphasis', I should have said English does not place 'importance'
on the vowels, (with dots/marks etc above them as others do), meaning that we don't do it. NOT
that it changes the vowels 'emphasis'. I know that they can totally change the 'sound' of them.

I was also mainly talking about modern English. Obviously 'old' English was a different beast, when
 areas of Scotland, England & Ireland had Celtic influences, intermixed with Gaelic. (Still today).
I'm not saying that English is a young language, nor that all languages didn't once intersperse.

All I ever tried to say is that within our 'modern' English, (and especially in scientific circles), a vast
amount of 'our' words have Latin/Greek/French etc origins!! Though 'anglicized' versions of them too.
I was not trying to start a war of words, nor to correct anyone else.  Peace my friend.  :phew:  :D
 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2019, 06:15:21 pm »
Tooki . . .  You sound very knowledgeable on the subject, and I truly commend you.
However, (mainly to someone else...), I never claimed to be an expert linguist,  by any stretch.
You did, though, misinterpret what I was basically saying, regarding a few points.
Firstly, when I used the word 'emphasis', I should have said English does not place 'importance'
on the vowels, (with dots/marks etc above them as others do), meaning that we don't do it. NOT
that it changes the vowels 'emphasis'. I know that they can totally change the 'sound' of them.
But that’s just spelling convention, which exists independent of the actual rules of the language itself. (As in, human languages — except for dead languages —  are spoken first, written second, if at al.) The rules of English grammar, pronunciation, semantics, etc.  apply equally to an illiterate speaker as they do to a literate one.

So if we are talking about speech sounds, then English is every bit as picky as any other language. For example, the following words differ only in the specific vowel sound they use: put, putt, pit, pet, Pete, pot, pat, and probably a few more I can’t think of at the moment.

I was also mainly talking about modern English. Obviously 'old' English was a different beast, when
 areas of Scotland, England & Ireland had Celtic influences, intermixed with Gaelic. (Still today).
I'm not saying that English is a young language, nor that all languages didn't once intersperse.
But I really don’t think that it’s any different if we restrict it to modern English.

All I ever tried to say is that within our 'modern' English, (and especially in scientific circles), a vast
amount of 'our' words have Latin/Greek/French etc origins!! Though 'anglicized' versions of them too.
I was not trying to start a war of words, nor to correct anyone else.  Peace my friend.  :phew:  :D
I think you underestimate the extent to which all the other European languages also borrowed from those languages and each other!

What I do find amusing is how in German, a lot of Greek and Latin scientific terminology is referred to as the “Fremdwort” (foreign word), while in English we simply consider it a normal word. For example, the word “adult” is normal English, but considered biology jargon in German. (The everyday word is “Erwachsen”, which literally just means “grown-up”, which is also a word we have in English.) :p

And I definitely am not intending to fight with you or try to put you down. Sorry if I gave that impression. It’s just that this is a great example of how non-linguists’ beliefs about languages and language development are, well, often completely wrong.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2019, 11:40:55 am »
Tooki...  I grasp all that you are saying. I just didn't expect that you were going to/needed to,
break down everything I say into almost line by line discussions, as you are still reading WAY
too deep into what I thought was a reasonable summation, in my last, final, paragraph ??

I'm not doubting that ALL languages 'evolve', and can go back as far as one may wish to research.
I 'initially' quoted an Anglicized version of the Greek word, 'Bromos', today being 'Bromine'. All that
I was 'suggesting' is that I don't think the 'Greeks' adopted that word from another prior language,
as it was invented by the Greeks, and was descriptive of the Element. The 'English' word ensued...

As you would know, (seriously), old German, and in fact still today, also is very 'descriptive' in their
naming of things back through time. For example... 'Mercury' (English). In German, even today, it is
called 'Quecksilber', which translates to 'Quick Silver'... Because it is Silver coloured, ('colored'), and
seems to move quickly on a table or what ever, if touched. Their 'descriptions' become 'words'.
A 'Quecksilberschalter' translates to a 'Mercury (tilt) Switch'. Combined to make a 'word'.
OLD languages were very 'descriptive'. but it is still not what I simply said...   :-// Again, PEACE mate..  :-+

Now PLEASE see the following as JUST IN FUN !!!........
(Especially as we are discussing various countries languages & interpretations)....
I did a generic 'Google' search for 'Tooki', and the 1st one came up under 'urbandictionary.com' as....
      Tooki-Tooki
      To stick your tongue up a tall, wanna be emo girl's butt hole, while she proceeds to fart on your tongue.


So let's just put life down to a series of misinterpretations !!!   :-DD
 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2019, 05:21:38 pm »
Tooki...  I grasp all that you are saying. I just didn't expect that you were going to/needed to,
break down everything I say into almost line by line discussions, as you are still reading WAY
too deep into what I thought was a reasonable summation, in my last, final, paragraph ??

If you mean this one:
Quote
All I ever tried to say is that within our 'modern' English, (and especially in scientific circles), a vast
amount of 'our' words have Latin/Greek/French etc origins!! Though 'anglicized' versions of them too.
then yes, that statement is correct.

But your original statement was the following, which is worlds apart from the one above:
Quote
I've stated somewhere before, that 'English' is generally not a unique Language, Per-Se'.
It is a mixture of 'bastardizations', 'misinterpretations', and 'pseudo-translations', from mainly
Latin, Greek, French, German & many other core languages, especially when it comes to such
technical/chemical/scientific words that 'appear' to be our language.
I was going to type 50 or so examples, but decided it would be futile.  :)


I'm not doubting that ALL languages 'evolve', and can go back as far as one may wish to research.
I 'initially' quoted an Anglicized version of the Greek word, 'Bromos', today being 'Bromine'. All that
I was 'suggesting' is that I don't think the 'Greeks' adopted that word from another prior language,
as it was invented by the Greeks, and was descriptive of the Element. The 'English' word ensued...
Well, yes, they called it "bromos" for "stench", but where did their word for "stench" come from? It either evolved from a predecessor language, or it was borrowed from some other contemporary language. (You can do this recursively almost ad infinitum, until we reach pre-history.)

It's comparatively rare for words to truly be invented out of thin air.

As you would know, (seriously), old German, and in fact still today, also is very 'descriptive' in their
naming of things back through time. For example... 'Mercury' (English). In German, even today, it is
called 'Quecksilber', which translates to 'Quick Silver'... Because it is Silver coloured, ('colored'), and
seems to move quickly on a table or what ever, if touched. Their 'descriptions' become 'words'.
A 'Quecksilberschalter' translates to a 'Mercury (tilt) Switch'. Combined to make a 'word'.
OLD languages were very 'descriptive'.
Not just old ones! Modern words often emerge similarly. For example, the word "newspaper" (which in some dialects of English is already pronounced "noosepaper", not "noozpaper", showing it really becoming a standalone noun, not a compound) originally was just a compound "news-paper", as in, a paper with news on it. "Email" went a similar path, originally always written e-mail, but increasingly written without the hyphen. And to be sure, the English words "email" and "mail" have been adopted into tons of other languages to mean email specifically. :) (I do love the Canadian French word "courriel" for email.)

But you're right that in English, we don't perceive our Latin/Greek-rooted words as being descriptive like that, since we don't generally know Latin or Greek, so we kinda use them as monolithic blocks. But if we did know Latin or Greek, we'd see that those words/roots are just as descriptive in those languages!


Many native German words for things crack me up. The word for "nipple" is pretty well known: Brustwarze, which literally translates to "breast wart". Less known is their (everyday) word for the areola: Vorhof, which literally means "vestibule".  :-DD

(If you look at English anatomy jargon, though, we use the word "vestibule" for a few structures, too! "Areola" means nothing more than "little space" in Latin, apparently.)

Here's a great video of a German tongue-twister that makes fun of how their nouns can compound endlessly:



:D

Now PLEASE see the following as JUST IN FUN !!!........
(Especially as we are discussing various countries languages & interpretations)....
I did a generic 'Google' search for 'Tooki', and the 1st one came up under 'urbandictionary.com' as....
      Tooki-Tooki
      To stick your tongue up a tall, wanna be emo girl's butt hole, while she proceeds to fart on your tongue.

OMG that's hilarious!  :-DD

Also, something I definitely will not be trying out!

So let's just put life down to a series of misinterpretations !!!   :-DD
That's so very true!!
 

Offline Illusionist

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2019, 08:44:55 pm »
Never did I imagine, when I vented my spleen about silicone and silicon, that the ensuing thread would prove so entertaining and educational.

Tooki-tooki... there's phrase I'm sure I'll never need to use again; hopefully!

 :popcorn:

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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2019, 02:02:20 pm »
Never did I imagine, when I vented my spleen about silicone and silicon, that the ensuing thread would prove so entertaining and educational.

Tooki-tooki... there's phrase I'm sure I'll never need to use again; hopefully!

 :popcorn:

Ain't life interesting 'Illusionist'  ;D
And finally (haha!) to 'Tooki'......
Firstly, I'm glad you saw/took the humor as it was intended !  8)
However, I can't help myself from mentioning a few minor corrections...   ;D
You said....
"Well, yes, they called it "bromos" for "stench", but where did their word for "stench" come from? "
Come on!!, everyone knows what I meant, and it was not that!
You said....
"It's comparatively rare for words to truly be invented out of thin air."
Whether it was a 'grunt' from a caveman, ALL words must ORIGINALLY been 'made' up. Here in Australia,
we have in Central Australia,  we have the Olgas, & Ayers Rock. The Olgas, in Aboriginal language, is called
"Kata Tjuta" which means "Many Heads". However, Ayers Rock is called "Uluru". Which is a totally made up
name with no descriptive origins. There are countless others here too !  ;D
"Brustwarze", which literally translates to "breast wart"...... ? True.  Descriptive, but not 'sexy' xox
Regarding your German tongue twister video, don't get me started on the fun I used to have with my old
German mate & his wife!!, regarding some of the idiosyncrasies in English!!  They were taught in Germany
to order breakfast here, by asking for "M, N, X". (Ham & Eggs!). And finally taught them the "I before E,
except after C" rule in English.  (Receipt, as opposed to believe, fierce). Germans generally use 'ei', as
in Stein. (Stone).

But wait!!, I want to throw this to you!!!... do you realize that in English Grammar, there is a sentence in
which you can use the word "that", 5 times in succession, (like... 'that that that that that') which still
makes grammatical sense  !!!!!  See if you can figure it out !!   8)
(Yes, I'll later explain it !! :) )
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 02:18:37 pm by GlennSprigg »
 

Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2019, 01:54:47 pm »
However, I can't help myself from mentioning a few minor corrections...   ;D
You said....
"Well, yes, they called it "bromos" for "stench", but where did their word for "stench" come from? "
Come on!!, everyone knows what I meant, and it was not that!
You said....
"It's comparatively rare for words to truly be invented out of thin air."
Whether it was a 'grunt' from a caveman, ALL words must ORIGINALLY been 'made' up.
Weeeellll... sorta. What I mean is that it's rare for us to need a word for something new and just randomly chain together sounds; we tend to either borrow an existing word from somewhere else, or create a descriptive new compound. (Brand names excepted, of course.)

Here in Australia,
we have in Central Australia,  we have the Olgas, & Ayers Rock. The Olgas, in Aboriginal language, is called
"Kata Tjuta" which means "Many Heads". However, Ayers Rock is called "Uluru". Which is a totally made up
name with no descriptive origins. There are countless others here too !  ;D
Place names often (possibly most often?) have descriptive origins. What happens a lot is that the name becomes kind of "static" as the language evolves around it, making it non-obvious that it is a descriptive name. For example, the English place name suffix "-ington" means "town of the people of [something]", e.g. Washington means "town of the Wash people". (-ton means town, -ing means the people of.) But nobody knows that any more, so we just see them as place names, and as the surname of people with an ancestor originally from there. So "Uluru" likely was descriptive, but in some long lost ancestral language.

Regarding your German tongue twister video, don't get me started on the fun I used to have with my old
German mate & his wife!!, regarding some of the idiosyncrasies in English!!  They were taught in Germany
to order breakfast here, by asking for "M, N, X". (Ham & Eggs!).
  :o Wooow...

And finally taught them the "I before E,
except after C" rule in English.  (Receipt, as opposed to believe, fierce). Germans generally use 'ei', as
in Stein. (Stone).
German has both, each simply encodes different sounds:
ei is pronounced like the English "aye", as in Stein (and more rarely, "uhy", like the first "i" in "crisis", as in Meissel [chisel])
ie is pronounced like the English "ee", as in Kiesel (old word for silicon)

When I was just beginning to learn German, the handy shortcut I remembered is that each of those pairs is pronounced like the English name of the second letter. So "ei" = "I" and "ie" = "E".

But wait!!, I want to throw this to you!!!... do you realize that in English Grammar, there is a sentence in
which you can use the word "that", 5 times in succession, (like... 'that that that that that') which still
makes grammatical sense  !!!!!  See if you can figure it out !!   8)
(Yes, I'll later explain it !! :) )
Oh, you mean this? http://www.increasebrainpower.com/that-riddle.html

FYI, his analysis is wrong, or rather, his analysis is wrong for the punctuation he inserts. As he's punctuated it, the first "that" is not a conjunction, it is a pronoun. If he wants it to be a conjunction, then the first comma would be deleted. ;)
 
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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2019, 12:57:22 pm »
However, I can't help myself from mentioning a few minor corrections...   ;D
You said....
"Well, yes, they called it "bromos" for "stench", but where did their word for "stench" come from? "
Come on!!, everyone knows what I meant, and it was not that!
You said....
"It's comparatively rare for words to truly be invented out of thin air."
Whether it was a 'grunt' from a caveman, ALL words must ORIGINALLY been 'made' up.
Weeeellll... sorta. What I mean is that it's rare for us to need a word for something new and just randomly chain together sounds; we tend to either borrow an existing word from somewhere else, or create a descriptive new compound. (Brand names excepted, of course.)

Here in Australia,
we have in Central Australia,  we have the Olgas, & Ayers Rock. The Olgas, in Aboriginal language, is called
"Kata Tjuta" which means "Many Heads". However, Ayers Rock is called "Uluru". Which is a totally made up
name with no descriptive origins. There are countless others here too !  ;D
Place names often (possibly most often?) have descriptive origins. What happens a lot is that the name becomes kind of "static" as the language evolves around it, making it non-obvious that it is a descriptive name. For example, the English place name suffix "-ington" means "town of the people of [something]", e.g. Washington means "town of the Wash people". (-ton means town, -ing means the people of.) But nobody knows that any more, so we just see them as place names, and as the surname of people with an ancestor originally from there. So "Uluru" likely was descriptive, but in some long lost ancestral language.

Regarding your German tongue twister video, don't get me started on the fun I used to have with my old
German mate & his wife!!, regarding some of the idiosyncrasies in English!!  They were taught in Germany
to order breakfast here, by asking for "M, N, X". (Ham & Eggs!).
  :o Wooow...

And finally taught them the "I before E,
except after C" rule in English.  (Receipt, as opposed to believe, fierce). Germans generally use 'ei', as
in Stein. (Stone).
German has both, each simply encodes different sounds:
ei is pronounced like the English "aye", as in Stein (and more rarely, "uhy", like the first "i" in "crisis", as in Meissel [chisel])
ie is pronounced like the English "ee", as in Kiesel (old word for silicon)

When I was just beginning to learn German, the handy shortcut I remembered is that each of those pairs is pronounced like the English name of the second letter. So "ei" = "I" and "ie" = "E".

But wait!!, I want to throw this to you!!!... do you realize that in English Grammar, there is a sentence in
which you can use the word "that", 5 times in succession, (like... 'that that that that that') which still
makes grammatical sense  !!!!!  See if you can figure it out !!   8)
(Yes, I'll later explain it !! :) )
Oh, you mean this? http://www.increasebrainpower.com/that-riddle.html

FYI, his analysis is wrong, or rather, his analysis is wrong for the punctuation he inserts. As he's punctuated it, the first "that" is not a conjunction, it is a pronoun. If he wants it to be a conjunction, then the first comma would be deleted. ;)

Regarding " "M, N, X". (Ham & Eggs!)"... They were being taught English correctly, but were given that 'fun'
variation too, just to sort-of pronounce it right here in AussieLand  ;D

I was not previously aware of the reverse...  "ei" = "I" and "ie" = "E" for German.  Will remember that !  8)
I think our English  "I before E, except after C", only has a few exceptions, but only when words are
taken from German names, like 'Epstein' or 'Stein'.

Regarding the  'that that that that that' conundrum, You found it!!  Funnily enough, I've never seen it
posted or written before. I figured it out myself once while pondering words.  8)
(And yes, punctuation is important, for readability).  Translation could pose a problem !!

IN GENERAL....  Yea, my old German friends had the hardest time in getting me to pronounce their vowels
and consonants correctly, to be understood!!  Like "U, V, W" being pronounced like "Oooh, Far, Vow".
And that "VolksWagen" being pronounced like  "Folks Vagen". (The people's car). And back to the
'descriptive' words, starting with 'Uhr' (for Clock), but a Watch is an 'Armbanduhr'. (Arm band clock).
Not to mention which words are Masculine, Feminine, & Neutral, with no fully set pattern!! (Die, Der, Das).
And that a small child has no gender!!... "Das Kind", whether they are a girl or a boy!!  :scared:
Complicated more whether you are on "Do" (Du) terms with someone. (Haben Sie, or Hast Du)  :palm:
I'm getting there....  (Sorry to the O.P. hahaha...).
 
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Online tooki

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2019, 03:10:15 am »
Regarding " "M, N, X". (Ham & Eggs!)"... They were being taught English correctly, but were given that 'fun'
variation too, just to sort-of pronounce it right here in AussieLand  ;D
Hahahaha, that detail went right over my head the first time! But yes, it's perfect!


I was not previously aware of the reverse...  "ei" = "I" and "ie" = "E" for German.  Will remember that !  8)
I think our English  "I before E, except after C", only has a few exceptions, but only when words are
taken from German names, like 'Epstein' or 'Stein'.
Not really: weird, freight, feint, seize, leisure, feisty, heifer...

(And there are a handful of words with "cie", like science, species, efficient, etc.)


Regarding the  'that that that that that' conundrum, You found it!!  Funnily enough, I've never seen it
posted or written before. I figured it out myself once while pondering words.  8)
(And yes, punctuation is important, for readability).  Translation could pose a problem !!
Translation just makes it clear what the structure is.

For example, the:
'I said that(1)"that(2) 'that(3)' that(4) that(5) man wrote should have been underlined."'

could translate into German as:

'Ich sagte, dass(1) dieses(2) "dass(3)", das(4) dieser(5) Mann geschrieben hat, sollte unterstrichen sein.'

(Number 3 could be any of the following, since the referent is unknown: das, dass, diese, dieses, dieser, diesen)



IN GENERAL....  Yea, my old German friends had the hardest time in getting me to pronounce their vowels
and consonants correctly, to be understood!!  Like "U, V, W" being pronounced like "Oooh, Far, Vow".
And that "VolksWagen" being pronounced like  "Folks Vagen". (The people's car).
Yup. What's also funny is how native German speakers overcorrect the difference in English, pronouncing many English V's as W's instead. Like my stepdad saying "wedgetables" for vegetables (even funnier when he tries to say "veggies"!).

My mom is a retired ESL teacher, and one of the things she used to do for words that learners do this to was to refuse to show them the written word before they memorized the pronunciation, because seeing it written would forever corrupt their mental model of it! So she might say "repeat after me: vegetables". And someone would ask "how's it written?" and she would simply tell them "No! If I show you now, you will never pronounce it correctly!"  >:D They'd practice a couple of times until everyone said it correctly, and only then expose the orthography. :P

Speaking of the People's Car, this reminds me of an infuriating video I encountered recently, on a youtube channel called "How to Switzerland", by a somewhat clueless American girl and her Swiss husband (like... I get what they're trying to do, but she comes off as a bit "fresh off the boat" compared to us veteran Ausländer, despite her apparently having been here for a while.) It was titled something like "10 brands the Swiss pronounce wrong" (with the word "wrong" specifically), and those "wrong" pronunciations included VW and IKEA.  :palm: (Here in Switzerland, those are pronounced "fow veh" and "ee-keh-uh", just like in Germany and Sweden, respectively.) Like... I'm pretty sure that — aside from the fact that brand names often have "local" pronunciations — if one does have to choose a single authoritative pronunciation, it's that of the company's home country!

I wonder if that girl knows that Maggi, the Swiss seasoning brand that's known worldwide, is not pronounced "maggie" in Switzerland, but "machi"!


And back to the
'descriptive' words, starting with 'Uhr' (for Clock), but a Watch is an 'Armbanduhr'. (Arm band clock).
Not to mention which words are Masculine, Feminine, & Neutral, with no fully set pattern!! (Die, Der, Das).
And that a small child has no gender!!... "Das Kind", whether they are a girl or a boy!!  :scared:
Complicated more whether you are on "Do" (Du) terms with someone. (Haben Sie, or Hast Du)  :palm:
I'm getting there....  (Sorry to the O.P. hahaha...).
Yep. Like, a woman is feminine (die Frau) but a girl is neuter (das Mädchen), because Mädchen is a diminutive, and in German, diminutives are always neuter. I remember vividly when I was learning German originally (I was 12) how all of us kid learners, regardless of what our native language was, intuitively wanted to say "die Mädchen", because obviously a girl would be feminine!

But Italian is still a smidgen weirder, in that it has a few words whose gender changes depending on the number! The only ones I know are egg and finger, which are masculine in the singular (l'uovo and il dito), but feminine in the plural (le uova and le dita)!!!  :wtf:   (Apparently, these are the very last traces of a neuter gender that's been almost entirely lost in Italian.)


Speaking of plurals (i.e. grammatical number), those are also a source of wonderful weirdness. For example, English and German both treat the number zero as a plural, and mark words with a plural marker ("there are zero eggs in the fridge"/"there is one egg in the fridge"/"there are two+ eggs in the fridge"). French marks plurals, but treats zero as singular. Many languages (like Japanese and Chinese) use no plural markers at all, while other languages not only have a plural, but also have special markers for the dual (specifically 2 of something, e.g. Scots Gaelic) and/or paucal (a few of something, more than 1 but less than many, like 2–4 in Russian and Polish). Some languages apparently have even more complex systems of grammatical number.

I discovered this when working at a software company, where I did the translation of everything, including program text strings, from German to English. So I had to write strings like "There were no errors while formatting the document./There was 1 error while formatting the document./There were [n] errors while formatting the document.", for each number case. Sometimes, where German (by pure chance) had singulars and plurals that were identical, I'd have to have the programmers separate a single string into separate singular and plural (like the right-click menu command "Titel bearbeiten", which in English needed to adapt to "Edit title" or "Edit titles", depending on what's selected).

And then we did a Polish translation... and the Polish translator informed us that the program logic would need to not just select the string by 0/1/2+ , but by 0/1/2–4/5+! (That's when we bought a special library to handle this, which would allow the display logic to vary by language, without needing to have the programmers change the program logic.)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 03:14:23 am by tooki »
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2019, 01:43:32 pm »
Thanks for all that, Tooki...   All truly interesting !!
(People probably complaining... "Oh no, I thought this post/thread had stopped!!")   ;D
You said...
    Not really: weird, freight, feint, seize, leisure, feisty, heifer...
    (And there are a handful of words with "cie", like science, species, efficient, etc.)

Ok, you looked them up! hahaha. I knew they were there, & not a hard and fast rule..   :D
You said...
    What's also funny is how native German speakers overcorrect the difference in English, pronouncing many English V's as W's instead.
    Like my stepdad saying "wedgetables" for vegetables (even funnier when he tries to say "veggies"!
).
Yes they do !! I also noticed that in German, (I'm sure you will correct me hahaha!), they rarely if ever use
the letter 'J'. In fact the 'letter' itself is pronounced 'Yott'. They say a Jumbo-Jet is a 'Yumbo' xoxox  ;D
You said...
    If one does have to choose a single authoritative pronunciation, it's that of the company's home country!
Exactly what I was trying to say earlier on, but not just 'company' words. Again for example why the word 'Esplanade'
here in Australia is pronounced 'Esplanaard', not pronounced like 'Esplanaid' as in 'Lemonade', because it is a French
word, so we respect their pronunciation. Confusing my German friends !  :phew:
You said...
    Speaking of plurals (i.e. grammatical number), those are also a source of wonderful weirdness.
Regarding the 'Singular', in English, we also use the word 'a' to mean 1. Like "I have a cat". Or "What did you
see?...  'a car'. "  ( not 1 cat, or 1 car). But in German, it's 'eine Catze' and 'einen Wagen'. And of course we have
our '1 sheep, 2 sheep'. (Not 'sheeps'). All fun and games !!

The upshot of it all, is that as I've been told by friends, (and I agree!), is that to truly become more fluent, one
needs to be thrown in the deep end, & totally immersed in it over there!!, and you will have to learn!!!  :-+

The problem I have at the moment, is understanding the voices I hear, due to normal speed of their speech.
It's like... If I said to an English/Aussie neighbor... "Whatchadointmorra", they would understand it correctly
as being  "What are you doing tomorrow". I often ask Germans to slow it down, to break up the words a bit,
and to also say things in a more formal way. (I know I have to get used to general informal speech though!).
Have a great day!!

 

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2019, 03:40:17 pm »
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/humor.htm#hum024
Quote
English is Such a Crazy Language
(From: Ravi Pillutla (ravi@repairfaq.org).)

Let's face it: English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant or ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple.

English muffins were not invented in England or french fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies, while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat.

We take English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find that quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square, and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig. And why is it that writers write, but fingers don't fing, grocers don't groce, and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So, one moose, 2 meese? One index, two indices? Is cheese the plural of choose?

If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?

In what language do people recite at a play, and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell? Park on driveways and drive on parkways?

How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? How can the weather be hot as h*ll one day and cold as h*ll another?

When a house burns up, it burns down. You fill in a form by filling it out and an alarm clock goes off by going on.

When the stars are out, they are visible, but when the lights are out, they are invisible. And why, when I wind up my watch, I start it, but when I wind up this essay, I end it?

Now I know why I flunked my English. It's not my fault -- the silly language doesn't quite know whether it's coming or going.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
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Offline FreddieChopin

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Re: It's silicon, not silicone!
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2019, 04:22:18 pm »
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/humor.htm#hum024
Quote
English is Such a Crazy Language
(From: Ravi Pillutla (ravi@repairfaq.org).)

Let's face it: English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant or ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple.

English muffins were not invented in England or french fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies, while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat.

We take English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find that quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square, and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig. And why is it that writers write, but fingers don't fing, grocers don't groce, and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So, one moose, 2 meese? One index, two indices? Is cheese the plural of choose?

If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?

In what language do people recite at a play, and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell? Park on driveways and drive on parkways?

How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? How can the weather be hot as h*ll one day and cold as h*ll another?

When a house burns up, it burns down. You fill in a form by filling it out and an alarm clock goes off by going on.

When the stars are out, they are visible, but when the lights are out, they are invisible. And why, when I wind up my watch, I start it, but when I wind up this essay, I end it?

Now I know why I flunked my English. It's not my fault -- the silly language doesn't quite know whether it's coming or going.

English is a complete and utter turd like C++ but it stood the test of time unlike pretty turds like LISP.
 


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